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Serious Questions for Christians
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:29 PM Khandu, I am very pleased that you chose to share openly what you had already shared with me earlier today. Your struggles in this area have been much on my mind, all day. Since you came to us for help with these issues, I am going to offer some sisterly words. I will be pleased also to continue our e-mail discussion of this. As soon as you judge the people with whom you take issue... you have already become them. You have taken on the sin you abhor. Your effectiveness stops as soon as that occurs. I invite you to ask our Lord to restore it. So the question is not, are you right about what you see? Of course you are, and you did not need us to tell you that. You already know it through logic and conscience. I believe that the first question is, what do you (personally) do with the reality that so many are living, teaching, and preaching in error? To try to first gain understanding, as I believe you tried to do, is a wonderful thing. I have seen your soft, sweet spirit often, in posts throughout the Forum. But dear... you know, you will not find too many here at the Mudcat who live, teach, and preach from the viewpoint you describe finding so wrong. So when you ask these questions here, see what answers you got. (Not me, not me, not me.... not so badly... not like that....) Your view was simply affirmed. And a number of people shared openly, in deeply moving ways, because you had created a thread couched in terms that caused them to think about a matter in a particular way. Here, what I believe you can actually accomplish is gaining support for whatever you yourself choose to DO about what you see happening around you. Whatever you choose to do, you will not find anyone who actually lives, teaches, and preaches as you describe amenable to the questions you posed. For these questions are cast in the paradigm of legalism and judgmentalism. Your "opponents" are already masters at this approach and they will "win" every time you take their approach as your own. If these people and their viewpoints were not so rigid, your questions would work. But you yourself know that you have tried them before. You know they did not work. What I think we-- your friends-- can offer is support for the grief and outrage left behind from these attempts to be heard in the past, and a cheering section as you look ahead. The larger question will be, who do you actually KNOW who holds these views on life and faith, and what is in the way of your lifting them up? Where are they stuck that needs your love and support and encouragement to a softer spirit? What does Jesus say to YOU to do about it? What does your understanding of YOUR beliefs require of YOU in these matters? To the rest of you, I would say this. I know the deep satisfaction of speaking with the openness many of you have found today in this thread. I pray that you will not receive the same treatment for it that I have, but I am not naive enough to think that just because it does not come in this thread, it will not come. I also pray, and ask, that you watch carefully the atmosphere at this Forum. There are a lot of people here who find this kind of discussion incredibly painful to witness, and they have reasons for that which we must respect if we are true followers of the Christ. And these people, if they do not attack you directly in this thread, will, sooner or later, have "enough" with hearing one more time about Jesus, and they will boil over. It may be at me, it may be at you, it may be the next new Christian member of Mudcat who stumbles in here and finds the apparently open and "civil" forum irrestible. But every one of these threads has been followed by a backlash, and we have lost members and heart each time. Every time we have a "civil" thread like this, people get more open throughout the Forum, and Bamm! Up comes the outrage. (It isn't always out here in the threads where all can see it.) Some of it is mischief. But some of it is real hurt rising to the fore for needed attention and respect. We are not called to judge which is which. We are called to love, whatever the behavior we receive. And it is not loving to jump up and down on sore toes just because you have an opportunity and feel you have a "right." We Christians do not have "rights." We are bought with a price, and we have given these "rights" to the One who paid for us, to be used as He directs. So remember, the cycle has not stopped, just because you have not seen the flaming out in the open, lately. (You may have posted openly, today, but not yet boldly enough, to cause it to rise.) I pray that the next time this occurs, we will all have the wisdom to support one another more effectively than has been the case thus far. I thought about nothing else all day, and this is the best I can see it right now. I would invite continued discussion privately in e-mail, on any points I have raised. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Jan 01 - 10:34 PM Hello Khandu - I appreciate your concerns. The trouble is, how does one define the word "Christian"? There are probably thousands of possible definitions. What you are perturbed about is not Christians, per se, but bigots, hypocrites, and some very disturbed people who claim to be Christians, yet behave in a manner which does not exemplify Christ's teachings. So it has ever been. There are good people and scoundrels in all "faiths", and there are good people and scoundrels who claim to be atheists too. It's a pity that the most rabid and extreme members of any existing group are the ones to whom the media generally devotes its primary attention. But the media is only interested in turning a quick profit through creating a sensation. In fact, that is where virtually all the evil and corruption presently afflicting this society stems from...the search for a quick profit, regardless of consequences. I regret to say that it is the present dominating factor in the "American Dream". Obviously, Christ's genuine teachings are desperately needed these days...whether or not they are called "Christian" beliefs. If they were applied, then maybe people would stop worshipping money ("In God We Trust") and start honoring life instead. All life. We each have a role to play in doing something about it...every day of our lives. I don't care what people call themselves...only what they actually do about it. Jesus was indeed a GREAT shaman. He was merciful and loving. His spirit lives on. Best wishes, Little Hawk |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Gary T Date: 28 Jan 01 - 11:21 PM I'll share a few thoughts.
The name "Christian" means "Christ-like".
Jesus did not lobby Rome to replace Pontius Pilate as procurator. I am certain he did not agree with Roman occupation of his country, yet he did not gather a following in order to make a political statement....Jesus did not carry signs protesting the practice of crucifixion. He did not, with his men, stand near the place of crucifixion saying things like "Where is a sniper when you need one".... Still, the answer as to why Christians do some of the things you mentioned would typically be that they believe these are the right things to do bring Man closer to God. Given that plenty of Christians believe that these examples are NOT the right thing to do, one can especially appreciate the wisdom of the U.S. Constitution's and Government's doctrine of separation of church and state. Extremely few people follow Jesus' example and teachings in basic lifestyle, which would encompass giving away virtually all material goods. Are we ready to ask why most Christians don't do likewise? Plenty of lousy things have been done in the name of Christ. That's not likely to change, nor is human nature, nor the diverse and sometimes irreconcilable differences of opinion folks have on how to best follow Jesus' teachings and God's will. Most of the questions raised in the opening post strike me as being rooted more in politics than in theology. My advice--find a church that's a good fit for you, where you can be more effective in practicing Christianity as you believe it should be done. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,BO Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:28 AM Just a couple more thoughts/questions before this thread dies: I am always a bit wary of perspectives of people or groups which are based on what is seen on television. It is obviously a pretty warped and distorted view of reality. As a Christian, I am accountable to a community of faith called the Church. While that has its own set of problems to be sure, it also tends to be a corrective to the tendency to think faith is all about ME. It is counter-cultural in that way - it goes against good old American Individualism. From this perspective it seems that those who say "I'm saved, it's just me & Jesus and the rest of you are going to hell" and those who say "I'm a spiritual person but not religious; I choose my own path" are actually much closer in thought than appears on the surface. The New Testament is alive with the mind-boggling notion that God is seeking us, not the other way around. Whenever I hear explanations of the "development of religion" or "how people form their ideas of God" the question continually nags at me, what if God is more real than we are? What if God is at work despite our disbelief (despite, for that matter, our belief)? What if the Bible, in all its ambiguity and strangeness, is true? Jesus is far more radically liberal and more reactionary conservative than most of us will ever be. His teaching is always challenging for those who try to follow Him - he constantly nudges us out of complacency, be it from the left, right or middle. But the depth and profundity of his stories and life seem to defy simple political classifications. The love He preached is both far simpler and far more complex that we can grasp. Shalom, Bo |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: wysiwyg Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:38 AM Bo, I hope you'll stick around. Would you like to join the prayer chain some of us are on? You can e-mail me by clicking:
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Dave the Gnome Date: 29 Jan 01 - 04:24 AM Chuck in my two pen'urth before we finish. Perhaps the thread should be called serious questions for humans? - Or as Khandu changed it later, for some Christians/humans? ALL people claim to be human (apart from some such as me who are from mythical races;-)). From human come the terms humane and humanitarian. Yet how often do we see inhumane and non-humanitarian acts? Sorry Khandu but hypocracy if the not the exclusive domain of the Christian. Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:38 AM Thanks for the link Alice, and the reminder about BS, Harpgirl! As for songs, Paddymac, Tom Lehrer's Vatican Rag comes to mind. And Dogma manages to be a hilarious film without offending Christians, as far as I know. Good point about changing emphasis on the nature of Jesus, Jim Dixon - but it goes a little farther than you said. The "king of the Jews" bit (which seems closest to the historical Jesus) had to be played down, for the religion to survive under Roman occupancy. TThe idea of Jesus as Messiah only got going in that period (35-70CE). Hence little fictions like Pontius Pilate handing Jesus over to the Jews. (Cucifixion was an exclusively Roman punishment; Jews had their own methods, including stoning.) Jon's "fat Americans" point often is disingenuous. What was ever done collectively in the name of fat Americans? And if anything ever was, they could have disowned it, just as Christians could condemn the abuses of their churches if they had the guts. As Edmund Burke siad: "For evil to prevail, it is necessary only that good men do nothing." (Why should that bring the words "Pope Pius XII" and "Holocaust" to mind?) Christianity deserves all the stick it gets, having been far the most persecuting religion. It would not have survived at all, except that in 315CE Constantine adopted it as the Roman state religion, to help consolidate the power of the empire. The arrogance this bred in Christians resulted in brutal intolerance of other faiths, notably Muslim and Jewish. As well as the books mentioned by Jim, try "Religion and the Rise of Capitalism" by C L Tawney, and it becomes obvious, if it wassn't already, that God is a human invention, to facilitate the manipulation of other humans. Does anyone still believe that he is up there, watching over the life forms on prehaps thousands of planets, deciding our individual exam results on the basis of who flatters him most and lights most candles ("pp" mmeaning "publication promised" in those tragic classified ads), and deciding which of us gets to heaven and which don't? If there really is some guy doing that all day, it's a pity he hasn't got a dad who could drive him out the house to get a proper job. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,Professor Boligraffo Date: 29 Jan 01 - 06:56 AM Oh my dear chap. The answer is so simple. Mankind has evolved as the most ruthless and intelligent predator and will adapt any circumstance, idealogy, theology, opportunity to ensure survival. Christianity is no different from any other profound truth. It has been twisted, subverted, profained and degraded out of all recognition to further the predatory power instinct. As an atheist I am constantly drawn to the Sermon the Mount. You can dispense with all the rest. In those few words are enshrined a blueprint for compassionate co-existence and it doesn't matter a hoot to me whether they were uttered by a visiting deity or a mere mortal - the wisdom defies corruption. I only hope there is no such thing as eternal life. Oblivion I can cope with but eternity terrifies me. Live and love, and die in peace. Expose the cruel hypocrisies by example. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Jon Freeman Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:01 AM Fion, my point was that the grouping of people is unfair not that anything had been done in the name of fat Americans. If however, you did check back and read the thread I was reffering to which caused so much anger, I think you will find that there was an inference that fat Americans as a group were in some way responsible for world starvation. I do believe he is up there and as GaryT said,is "Jesus as Son of God and Savior. " but no, I do not belive he is stupid enough to be deceived by flattery and, I do not believe in the lighting of candles except as a symbolic representation of the Light Of Christ. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Jon Freeman Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:12 AM Oh and as for grand churches, I am not much of a church goer and the last service I attended was at Christmas where I joined a small gathering that use a rented floor above a shop. The time before that,a few days earlier was a carol concert at a really posh and grand venue - Norwich prison. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Margo Date: 29 Jan 01 - 12:11 PM Khandu, why is it hypocritical to be a Christian and protest abortion? I don't get that. Margo |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 29 Jan 01 - 12:27 PM er, I think Khandu's (rightly) getting at the people who proclaim themselves to be against abortion because of their faith and because they see it as murder, yet see nothing wrong in taking shots at doctors and clinic staff and attempting to murder them. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Margo Date: 29 Jan 01 - 12:48 PM OH. Yeah, that is definately looney. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Kim C Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:05 PM Khandu I have often wondered the same thing, and not just about Christians, but about all people who claim to be religious. It is why I no longer choose to worship in a group, but privately. A lot of people don't understand this. They ask where I go to church, and I say, at home or wherever I happen to be. I don't think it has to be sit down stand up sit down kneel and pray sing a hymn listen to sermon stand up sit down kneel and pray some more. But some people think that isn't right just because they are called in another way. In the book of Romans, Paul talks about how there are many different ways to worship, and don't dis your brother because he doesn't worship the same way you do. If what he does is for God's glory and praise then it's just as good as what you do. Since a physical body has many parts with specific functions, so does the body of Christ. I have my own function, you have yours, Susan has hers, so on and so forth. I think what happens is that people don't know how to listen for the guidance of their Higher Power and they rely wholly on themselves instead, then get into all kinds of trouble. Jesus was a rebel, though, and he did say that he came not to bring peace, but a sword; because sometimes when you do follow the guidance of your Higher Power, you may get in trouble with your friends, family, coworkers, etc., because they don't understand what you're doing. I said in another thread that I wished people could play nice with each other but unfortunately it doesn't always work that way. "Religion" can cover up a lot of people's flaws. KFC |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:18 PM "Blessed are the meak," Prof? Why? What's that all about? Kim, I don't think you'd often get asked in England where you go to church. The first assumption would be that you don't go, like most other folk. And believe it or not, things are moving that way in Ireland too, north and soutn. (A large proportion of the youngsters who do go, do so only to keep the old folk happy.) |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: John Hardly Date: 29 Jan 01 - 01:30 PM Peter, You write so well (all your posts in every thread) that I hesitate to even bring this up. It's just that the 3 point post, while well-written and definitely a majority opinion, from this "christian's" point of view arrogantly accepts a priori that no religion is objectively true. While it can probably safely be asserted that no religion is empirically true, most people of faith DO believe that what they believe is true--that's the nature of religions. It doesn't mean that religions can't live together in a pluralistic society, though those days for the USA are numbered. Jesus had a message (according to my read of the Gospels) that was inclusive--"Whosoever will come" and exclusive (not "coming" held more than an implied condemnation). I don't find a Gospel that implies a "searching" Jesus, as my read of your post seemes to imply. Johnwhoshouldprobablysticktoguitartalk. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Grab Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:34 PM Fionn, top notch comment. State religion is the problem. If it's down to each person's interpretation of the Bible, and everyone must live as best they can, then that's fine. But once it's a state religion, then laws MUST be drafted from the holy texts, bcos the holy texts MUST be right - it's provided by God, and God can't be wrong. And that fixes the whole country to follow that specific interpretation of the rules. Once it's fixed for the whole country, then it's the country's responsibility to ensure that everyone follows it, so you get indoctrination going(family/school/friends/TV/whatever) to make sure everyone not only follows that interpretation, but believes that any other interpretation is wrong and/or evil. And strict parents or a strict community can do just as good a job, too. If you're lucky then you get a man at the top to allow the rules to bend over time. But to become the man at the top requires you to have followed the specific interpretation better than everyone else, so don't expect too much change when they get there! Popes, Ayatollahs and some Jewish leaders (a certain Ariel Sharon springs to mind) don't have too good a record on this. So - state religion, no. Bush worries me by saying that he's going to incorporate Christianity into the law. Which bits? Come to that, which Christianity? You'd think that seeing the results of strict "Christianity" (in inverted commas; that is, following the teachings of strict preachers who call themselves Christians, not following the teachings of Christ strictly) in the past would be disincentive enough. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: kimmers Date: 29 Jan 01 - 03:41 PM Candles, and candle lighting... Candles aren't for God. If we believe that He is there, in whatever form we believe in, He hears and sees us without regard to whether we are lighting candles or whether we are eloquent in our communication with the Divine. But we are earthly, concrete beings, though we may occasionally touch something beyond this world. Candles, and other touches such as incense and (gasp!) music, are for us... to focus our thoughts, to make us aware that when we pray or worship, we are thinking of a life beyond this one. Staring into a candle flame is hypnotizing, and a aid to meditation. Historically, the Church (especially the Catholics, Anglicans and I presume the Orthodox folks as well) have used the concrete act of lighting a candle to help mark the fact that someone is praying or has prayed. Liturgy and symbolism ain't for everyone. I happen to love it, and I feel I get glimpses of God in the context of our high-church liturgy and traditional Anglican music. I also felt that way when I was 19 and singing praises songs by the creek in the middle of the night with my college friends. Completely unstructured, but worship all the same. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Burke Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:06 PM If it's understanding you want try: Armstrong, Karen. The battle for God. New York : Alfred A. Knopf, 2000. (See Amazon for reviews) Karen Armstrong provides an excellent historical analysis of the rise of fundamentalisms in Christianity, Judaism & Islam. Read at least the introduction & conclusion. I've got a much better understanding of the the culture wars of the past century that have helped bring about what we have now.
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: mousethief Date: 29 Jan 01 - 07:08 PM I cannot be held responsible for anybody else's sins (even Adam's). Then again, my own are burden enough. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Big Mick Date: 29 Jan 01 - 08:26 PM Wow...............what a thread!!! In terms of information to ponder, it is one of the best I have seen. And I have been around for a bit......congrats to all points of view expressed here. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Gypsy Date: 29 Jan 01 - 09:59 PM I've posed this one before, and will do so again. Go for 24 hours using only the words "Us" and "We", and no "They" or "Them". You would be amazed how your opinion changes, when you are lumped into the group that you denigrate. After all, we ARE all one animal, yes? |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Kim C Date: 30 Jan 01 - 05:13 PM Here in Tennessee you get asked a LOT where you go to church. ;) |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:03 PM Burke, I second that recommendation. I can't agree with her on lots of things, but Karen Armstrong is one thought-provoking dame. A great woman. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,khandu Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:13 PM The problem, dear Catters, is not in the Stars, but in ourselves. I posted this in frustration. But the real frustration was not at the ones to whom I referred, but at myself. I left the ministry years ago, but the Minister did not leave me. There are things within myself that I must deal with. As a diversion, I focused on others. Your responses have influenced me to focus on khandu, and what I must deal with. Thanks to all for your words and insights. May Grace and Peace prevail with us all. khandu |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: wysiwyg Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:15 PM Amen. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: catspaw49 Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:22 PM Khandu, you give me reason to want to visit Mississippi again..........and that's sayin' somethin'. You're a good man. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,khandu Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:20 PM Coming from you ,Spaw, that touches me deeply. No BS! I ask everyone to please let this mis-posted thread DIE!!! khandu |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Big Mick Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:45 PM Not before the aul big Mick gets a chance to wish you well......and express a hope that the peace of that which you hold holy be with you always. And thanks for one of the most interesting threads yet. All the very best, Big Mick |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST,guestguest(intruder)guest Date: 31 Jan 01 - 01:49 PM ...further deponent sayeth not. sheesh, as if 2000 years has any significance... druids have been around 8000, and they actually had to work at bewildering people. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST Date: 01 Feb 01 - 01:46 PM God does not play dice with the universe: He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players (i.e. everybody), to being involved in a obscure and complex variant of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time. -- Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, Good Omens Vocatus atque non vocatus deus aderit: bidden or not bidden, God is present. -- Carl Jung |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Feb 01 - 01:50 PM The thread's originator had asked that this thread pass into history (my paraphrase), but it seems to keep coming back.
You are all cordially invited to visit |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 05 Feb 01 - 09:55 AM From Khandu's re-conversion, with WYSIWYG there to hold his hand whether he needed it or not, I am bound to fear the very worst. Sadly WYSIWYG's link didn't work - not for me, anyway. But maybe it wasn't meant to. I expect it's an act of faith. |
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Subject: RE: Serious Questions for Christians From: GUEST, ~S~ Date: 05 Feb 01 - 10:05 AM The explanation is quite simple, Fionn. I can't see very well, and I made a bad link. The discussion was, "What Would You Do Differently?" and it was a music thread about applying what we believe--whatever we believe-- in our music. And BTW, there was nothing of conversion or re-conversion in the talks I had with Khandu. I don't do that, as people who know me well will tell you. What I did was ask him what was going on that brought these questions to such a head. And then I listened. That's most of what I do. Your assumptions about what I do are based on whatever you choose to see. I've offered to listen to you in the past, but you've declined. So you are looking in from the outside and making judgments based on a real lack of information. The view is bound to be a bit off. I'm sorry to be a source of upset for you, but you do it to yourself, you know. ~S~ |
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