Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:19 AM

One that stumped me for a long time was "kettle", meaning "watch" -- the kind you tell the time by. I'd never heard it till Arfur Daley got a load of dodgy ones. Anyone know the rhyme, or care to guess?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:36 AM

A watched kettle never boils?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:28 AM

Kettle & Hob? Fob (watch)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:50 AM

Nice try, your grace, but pavane takes the cake.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:39 AM

I would be wary of quoting TV programmes as a source, like I have said previously I think that the script writers may have manufactured a few examples over a tiddly at the rub-a-dub and therefore came up with a load of Pony (not to be confused with the pony that you put on a nag at the betting shop). I suspect that Kettle might not be rhyming slang. There were/are other slang words around the East End which have nothing to do with rhyming. Unfortunately I can't think of ANY slang for a watch at present. If anything I believe it would be Hop-Scotch, a game common to kids. If I had to try and translate kettle" I would probably go for = dish, but this is only a guess.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 11:52 AM

I think it more likely that scriptwriters overhear many of these things in pubs etc. The 'Del Boys' and the 'Arfur Daileys' are not made-up from scratch. They are all based on real people - and there really are many such people in London who really do speak like this..........

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 12:11 PM

"Kettle" is genuine: I had to check with a genuine Londoner (who would be in his 80s if he's still around), so I'm confident. But point taken!

Steve

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 01:19 PM

Jodrell comes from Jodrell Bank observatory near Manchester.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 03:16 PM

Red kettle = gold watch
White kettle = silver watch
Harris = Aristotle = Bottle = Bottle and glass = arse
Pommy = pommygranite = jimmygranite = immigranite = immigrant
Constant screamer = concertina

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 05:25 PM

Thanks Barrie, but that still doesn't explain how kettle becomes a watch. Pomegranate = immigrant ???? are you kidding ?

Steve, I have to lay claim to be a genuine Londoner too (East End and still there) not eighty years it's true but fifth generation at least and possibly more. I'm still intrigued by this one.


Cheers.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 02:27 AM

Saw placemats in a shop with drink-related slang.

Common ones were there such as
Brahms
Mother's Ruin (gin)

but I had never heard of Salmon as rhyming slag before!

Subject: All you wanted to know about watches (and more)
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:18 AM

Ok, let's see if we can lay this one to rest. Before the development of the wristwatch, a watch was about 2" (5cm) in diameter and was carried in a pocket. Originally, the pocket was in the breeches waistband, and was called a fob pocket; nowadays, it's more likely to be a waistcoat (vest) pocket. The watch was a chain, which stopped it falling out and made it easier to draw the watch from the pocket. "Fob" these days usually refers to an ornament on the chain, but at one time the watch was known as the fob. "Kettle and hob" = "fob", QED.

BTW, "Hob" means a hotplate, from asociation with the Devil and the place with all the flames, in the days when the stove would have a fire inside it.

Steve

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 11:01 AM

Mention above of "Arfur Daley", the song (with a partial translation) can be found Here

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:11 AM

As to whether it is still used - the Togmeister used two on his program only this morning, i.e. dicky for shirt, and berk. This is, of course, short for Berkely Hunt (and he's not even English, let alone London).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Moleskin Joe
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 09:55 AM

There is a lot of rhyming slang in Glasgow, much of it ephemeral and much of it local as in London. e.g.
radio rental               highland dancer greengages soapy bubble
liza minelli
callard & bowsers
desmond hacket
hampden roar
corned beef
gregory pecks
melvyn bragg
borassic lint
donald duck
jackanory
picadilly
winners & losers

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 11:18 AM

boracic & lint (skint)
(Spelling Note: boracic. a. pertaining to or derived from borax. boracic acid)

Gregory Peck
are both associated with London, many of the others look modern and somewhat 'impolite'?

Jacob's (crackers, I think) has recently been publicised - how old is it?

Another one I remember being much used at school was 'half-inched'

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Moleskin Joe
Date: 13 Dec 04 - 01:12 PM

None of the ones I referred to are impolite - the translations are
mental,telly,trousers,jacket,score,deef,trousers(kecks),fag,skint,luck,story,chilly,troosers,chancer,wages,trouble.
There are other more vulgar and non PC ones which I wouldn't think of putting on a family site. And thanks Pavane for the orthographical correction.
Good Luck,
MJ

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 04:19 AM

'Boracic' is always pronounced 'brassic', at least where I come from. (And note the present tense!)

Steve

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 14 Dec 04 - 04:28 AM

Here too.....I always thought it was to do with having no brass, never knew the boracic link. Live and learn.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Jan 05 - 11:58 PM

Re "Berk"--I've heard that derivation for years, but don't the English
pronounce "Berkeley" as "Barkley"?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 02:48 AM

Yes - but for how long? The Cockney accent has changed substantially since the days of Dickens, when one of its features was the exchange of V and W (e.g. werry instead of very). There are cockney songs of this style in broadsides of the era - see All around my hat, which starts:

"All around my hat I Vear a green Villow"
and then mentions "Wegitables"


Incidentally, I don't know how old Rhyming Slang actually is, but I have scoured the Bodleian collection without, so far, finding a single example in any song. Does anyone have an earliest recorded date?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:22 AM

It seems to have started around 1850, as this book indicates.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:39 AM

In reply to Dick Greenhaus:

In my part of the East End it's not Berkeley Hunt, but Berkshire Hunt.
The English people that pronounce it the way you indicate are what would have been referred to as 'toffs' and would not (generally) have used rhyming slang.
One nit picking correction to a reference above to "Boracic & Lint", there is no "&", it is Boracic Lint, something we war time kids were quite familiar with in both senses.

H.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 05:40 AM

Interesting. I wonder if it mentions this site, which DOES have a reverse lookup, (English to slang) unlike the book.

dick'n'Arry

(A lot of the entries here look a bit contrived though)

So does anyone have details of the earliest SONG containing rhyming slang?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: EagleWing
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 06:53 AM

Pavane says "Yes - but for how long? The Cockney accent has changed substantially since the days of Dickens, when one of its features was the exchange of V and W (e.g. werry instead of very)."

Hence the Parody "Villikins and his Dinah" from the original William and Dinah (The original was so awful, apparently, that the parody lived on after the original was forgotten).

Harking back to "Tottie" -
"In me east and west Dan Cupid shot a dart and left it there" is the version I learnt. Also "sunny south" & "Henry Meville" is what my source has.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 07:14 AM

The earliest version (of William and Dinah) I have seen is a broadside entitled 'William and DIANA' dated sometime before 1820, in the Bodleian ballad library.

The awfulness of the original was mentioned in Stephen Sedley's collection (The Seeds of Love, I think it was). Was he the first to make that comment?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Fay
Date: 05 Jan 05 - 04:50 PM

This is tied to my other thread asking for pre blackface songs, but as this thread is still current I'll repeat Pavane's question:


"So does anyone have details of the earliest SONG containing rhyming slang?"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:37 PM

When in London I worked with an old cockney who used lots of film star names as slang, you`re a bit of a Stewart Granger, pass me the Anna Mae Wongs, and one for the real cockneys, Alligators?.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:54 PM

Alligators and crocodiles?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: EagleWing
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 02:57 PM

"The awfulness of the original was mentioned in Stephen Sedley's collection (The Seeds of Love, I think it was). Was he the first to make that comment?"

It was my immediate source, but I suspect that he was in a fairly long line of commentators.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:08 PM

Manitas, Alligators were taters, [potatoes], Anna Mae Wongs was the Tongs, used for grappling the hot coke, and of course Stewart Granger = stranger.
Betty Grable =stable, Mae West=vest, George Raft =draft, Clarke Gable =table.
Council houses was trousers. Whistle and flute = suit.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Dani
Date: 06 Jan 05 - 03:20 PM

Anyone catch "Ocean's Twelve"? There's a reference one of the characters (with a Cockney accent, near as I can tell) makes reference to the fact that there's going to be "Barney". "What?!" "Barney... Rubble...., Trouble, Mite"!

Dani

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 01:27 PM

There's also a much older but similar meaning of 'Barney' from "Barn Owl" to "row" as in "They had a barney and fell out."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Megan L
Date: 07 Jan 05 - 02:07 PM

moleskin joe you forgot the much lamented auld glasgow ice rink (crossmaloof)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,cobra
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 05:24 AM

Ian Dury once did the late night prayer slot on London ITV, back in the seventies. You know, the god slot they used to have before the white dot kicked in at about half eleven, gawdsake! Anyway, he did the "taxi Drivers' Prayer" - (straight) face to camera:-

"Our Father what are in 'Endon, 'Arrow be thy name, they Kingston come thy Wimbledon in Erith as it is in 'Eaven.....

(I forget the rest)..

.......For ever and ever, Crouch End"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,pavane in Amsterdam
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 07:41 AM

Yes, maybe, but not rhyming slang...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM

I posted a song in 2004 that has lots of slang in it that I don't understand. It might be rhyming slang. I'd appreciate a translation/explanation.

See here: Lyr Add: The Wife, the Lodger, and I