BS: Basketball & Jazz: Obama's Comments

Subject: BS: Basketball & Jazz: Obama's Comments
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:08 PM

I just finished watching what I thought was a very interesting interview that sports journalist Bryant Gumbel had with Barack Obama on April 16, 2008. Here's an excerpt of that interview:

"BG:
It's not just coincidental that this country's first biracial presidential contender loves the game that itself cannot be separated from the issue of race.

BO-There is something about basketball and our culture that connects up with ah the African American experience in a special way almost in the same way that jazz music connects up with African American culture. There's an aspect of improvisational within a discipline that I find very very powerful.".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Lqm5emQl4
Barack and Basketball - REAL Sports with Bryant Gumbel
10:38-11:12 minutes of 14:10

"HBO Sports - Bryant Gumbel interviews Barack Obama on politics and basketball; complete with coverage of an informal game on the campaign trail"

-snip-

Prior to that watching that interview, I hadn't given any thought to there being any possible connections between basketball and jazz. Interesting...

In that interview, Obama and Gumbel also explored the idea that the way a person plays basketball could reveal, at least in part, something about the nature of that person [I gathered they meant something like whether the players are selfish with the ball, or pass it to other players, whether they are show-offs on the court etc].

The other part of that interview that I thought was interesting was the idea {discussed by Gumbel and Craig Robinson, Obama's brother-in-law, and not by Barack Obama} that there is a Black style of playing basketball and there is a White style of playing basketball. Gumbel named some famous basketball players who are Black who are known for using the White style of playing basketball. Gumbel also named some famous basketball players who are White who are known for using the Black style of playing basketball. When asked to describe Barack Obama's style, Robinson said that Obama used to play the Black style of basketball that is learned on the playground, but now he plays the White style of basketball. Robinson went on to say jokingly that actually all players over the age of 35 years play basketball using the White style. Since I'm only peripherally a basketball fan, I wasn't aware that there were Black or White ways of playing basketball.

There was also mention in that interview about the 3 on 3 basketball game that Obama planned [and subsequently did have] with Indiana high school students.
[See more about that game here"

And needless to say, Bryant Gumbel's interview with Barack Obama also covered politics.

**

Does anyone here have any comments about the subject of basketball as an improvisational activity? Do you agree that the way you play basketball {or, presumably any sport} reveals aspects of their personality? Do you agree that there are Black and White styles of playing basketball? And do you think that Obama's basketball interest & skills will have any impact on the success of his "political game" in Indiana and North Carolina?

Subject: RE: BS: Basketball & Jazz: Obama's Comments
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:29 PM

It occurred to me as I was writing my initial post that I have a book that is titled signifin{g}, santifin,' & slam dunking: A Reader In African American Expressive Culture {Gina Dagel Capon, ed.; University of Mass. Press, 1999}.

I had never read the chapters in the section on "Sports And The Public Displays Of The Body". Here's one excerpt from an essay in that section:

Michael Jordan {MJ}: I love jazz. I love mellow music. I love David Sanborn. Love Grover Wshington, Jr. Rap...it's okay for some people, But huh-uh. Not in my house.

John Wideman {JW}: Do you listen to Miles Davis?

MJ: Yeah.

JW: He talks about his art in a new biography he wrote with Quincy Troupe. When Miles relates jazz to boxing, I also hear him talking about writing, my art, and basketball, yours.

MJ: I know what you're saying.

JW: Right. There's a core of improvisation, spontaneity in all African American arts.

MJ: I'm always working to put surprises, something new in my game.Improvisation, spontaneity, all that stuff".

John Edgar Wideman, "Michael Jordan Leaps The Great Divide}, p. 397

-snip-

It probably wasn't coincidental that one of 277 that were posted to that Bryant Gumbel/Barack Obama interview video was one which succiently mentioned Miles Davis, jazz, and boxing. I didn't get what the poster was saying when I read that comment. Apparently, other people didn't either, as if I remember correctly he {or she} had 4 thumbs down for that comment. I didn't give that comment any points either way. I'mma go back there and give that comment a thumbs up.

Subject: RE: BS: Basketball & Jazz: Obama's Comments
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM

Interesting subject, Azizi. I used to watch a great deal of basketball- first because my (ex)husband was so involved in it and later the NBA.

I am curious about the White/Black styles of playing. I do remember one Black basketball player who admitted ruefully in an interview that he had White Man's Disease: Can't jump worth a darn. lol

I had never thought about or identified racial differences in styles of playing. Do you happen to remember any names that Gumbel mentioned?

Subject: RE: BS: Basketball & Jazz: Obama's Comments
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:10 PM

Hi, Ebbie! I'll post the names that Gumbel mentioned in my next post. Also, that book I mentioned has several essays that mention Black and White styles of playing basketball. I'll see if I can find a succient quote or two.

Meanwhile, I found a link to a video of that 3 on 3 game that Obama played with Indians high school students:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqCHm1APy8Q

And here's a dailykos dairy that may be of interest to some folks here:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/25/23727/2958/721/503705
Obama 3-on-3 Basketball Game in Kokomo, IN (pictures/video)
by turneresq
Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 08:17:39 PM PDT

Subject: RE: BS: Basketball & Jazz: Obama's Comments
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:23 PM

Correction:
dailykos "diary" [fwiw, a dailykos diary is almost like our threads but as far as I understand it, the first comment there {actually a comment/essay} is considered the diary and then the subsequent posts are made in response to that comment/essay]

**

Ebbie, the conversation about Black & White styles of playing basketball occurs at around 11:13 minutes in that video whose link I provided in my first post. Bryant Gumbel cites Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Charles Barkley as Black NBA players who played a "White style of basketball, and Jason Williams as a White player who played a Black style of basketball.

Btw, in addition to being Michelle Obama's brother, Craig Robinson is a noted university basketball coach.

I'm still looking for those quotes in that book I mentioned.
I'll post them shortly.

Subject: RE: BS: Basketball & Jazz: Obama's Comments
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:44 PM

Wonder how Charles Barkley feels about it? lol

When I get enough time, I'll watch the video. I'm jowl-deep in packing boxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Basketball & Jazz: Obama's Comments
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 02:59 PM

How 'bout that? I opened the chapter on Sports in that book and found these comments:

..."But the mark on basketball of today's players can be measured by more than money or visibility. It's a question of style. For there are clear differences between "black" and "white" styles of playing... Most simply [remember we are talking culture and not chromosomes}, "black" basketball is the use of superb athletic skill to adapt to the limits of space imposed by the game. "White" basketball is the pulverization of that space by sheer intensity...

This liquid grace is an integral part of "black ball, almost exclusively the province of the playground player. Some white stars like Bob Cousy, Billy Cunningham, Doug Collins, and Paul Westphal had it: the body control, the moves to the basket, the free-ranging mobility.They also have the surface case [face?] that is integral to the "black style; an incorporation of the ethic of mean streets-to "make it" is not just to have wealth, but to have it without strain. Whatever the muscles and organs are doing, the face of the "black" star almost never shows it. George Gervin of the San Antonio Spurs can drive to the basket with two men on him, pull up, turn around, and hit a basket without the least flicker of emotion...

If there is a single trait that characterizes "black" ball it is leaping agility...Speed, mobility, quickness, acceleration, "the moves"-all of these are catch-phrases that surround the "black" playground style of play. So does the most racially tinged of attributes "rhythm". Yet rhythm is what the black stars themselves talk about; feeling the flow of the game, finding the tempo of the dribble, the step, the shot. It is an instinctive quality, one that has led to difficulty between systematic coaches and free-form players...

There is another kind of basketball that has grown up in American. It is not played on asphalt playgrounds with a crowd of kids competing for the court; it is played on macadam driveways by one boy with a ball and a backboard nailed over the garage; it is played in Midwestern gyms and on Southern dirt courts. It is a mechanical, precise development of skills...It is "white" basketball: jagged sweaty, stumbling, intense. A "black" player overcomes an obstacle with finesse and body control; a "white" player reacts by outrunning or outpowering the obstacle...

"White" ball, then, is the basketball of patience and method. "Black" ball is the basketball of electric self-expression. One player has all the time in the world to perfect his skills, the other a need to prove himself. These are slippery categories, because a poor boy who is black can play "white" and a white boy of middle-class parents can play "black". Jamaal Wilkes and Paul Westphal are athlets who defy these categories. And what makes basketball the most intriguing of sports is how these styles do not necessarily clash; how the punishing intensity of "white" players and the dazzling moves of the "blacks" ca fit together, a fushion of cultures that seems more and more difficult in the world beyond the out-of-bounds line".

Jeff Greenfield, "The Black and White Truth about Basketball" {1975}cp. 375-378
signifin{g}, santifin,' & slam dunking: A Reader In African American Expressive Culture {Gina Dagel Capon, ed.; University of Mass. Press, 1999}.

Note: I added the word "face" in italics and bracket because I wondered if that was a misprint/typo.

Note 2: So that's where that title of the movie "White Men Can't Jump" came from.

Subject: RE: BS: Basketball & Jazz: Obama's Comments
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 03:31 PM

"It is "white" basketball: jagged sweaty, stumbling, intense. A "black" player overcomes an obstacle with finesse and body control; a "white" player reacts by outrunning or outpowering the obstacle..."

I don't think I'd agree with that generalization. I've seen a number of White players who were graceful, making good use of small spaces with great finesse. For that matter I have watched many a White player whose face doesn't reflect his effort or successful move. In play, deadpan faces are common- kind of the way a musician can go inside him or herself.

Subject: RE: BS: Basketball & Jazz: Obama's Comments
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Apr 08 - 03:47 PM

To continue our pm conversation...speaking of being literal...

I don't know enough about the sport to say if any of these comments are or were true or not. But remember that both the author of that last essay and Gumbel emphasized that they weren't talking race but culture {meaning some White players were known for playing "Black" style basketball and vice versa}.

**

Best wishes in your new home, Ebbie!