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Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they?
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Subject: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 16 May 20 - 06:37 AM Musical Clock in for restoration - the English folk community (and ex pats Welsh!) have named two - can you help with the other five please...? Trying to identify all 7 before the clock goes back to its owner, post service. EFDSS facebook page are kindly posting films of each (they've posted 5 out of 7 so far) please see > English Folk and Dance |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 16 May 20 - 06:47 AM PS - happy to send short, 25 second (2KB), films of each tune (on the cleaned, restored mechanism) to anyone willing to receive/review. Many thanks |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Jack Campin Date: 16 May 20 - 09:25 AM Can you just put them on YouTube or SoundCloud? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST Date: 17 May 20 - 02:59 PM Tune 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_Un7t5MznA Tune 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-aiulwG3is Tune 3 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvTf0PBIEVY Tune 4 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqHKYubdmk4 Tune 5 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIPh2Q1pK3k Tune 6 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoYKKRsasjw Tune 7 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8NXMJI0JCw Thanks Jack - I had to get help to upload to YouTube as I've never done anything like that before. Do I need to re-publish this thread, or anything, or will people now be able to pick up on it...? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,Starship Date: 17 May 20 - 03:19 PM This link will take you to all seven. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy2GvvG2-UTrHExMBAZrM1Q |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Steve Gardham Date: 17 May 20 - 05:30 PM Had a good listen and they don't really sound British to me. Where was the clock made? They also sound modal. Could they be carols? Number 3 seemed to be like a modal version of Lilliburlero/ Rock-a-bye Baby. Is there any chance something is adjusted wrongly? Are they being played backwards for instance? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 17 May 20 - 05:48 PM I listened to them too and none of them sounded familiar but one problem is the tinkliness/tinklyness (good word, huh?) made it difficult to hear the tunes properly. Music box mechanisms usually sound a bit better when they are anchored to a solid object because it gives a bit more resonance. John the Clockmaker, what are the two tunes which have already been identified? It might give a clue to the likely identity of the other tunes. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 17 May 20 - 05:56 PM Tune #6 reminds me a little of Good King Wenceslaus |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Jeri Date: 17 May 20 - 06:21 PM #3 sounds familiar, but not enough, and #7 sounds, generally, like the tune to a hymn. I have difficulty hearing the pitch amidst all the plinky overtones. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Jack Campin Date: 17 May 20 - 07:15 PM My phone speaker really doesn't like that - a continuous ring swamps the tune. What I can make out sounds improbably like Shetland tunes. Will try again with something that gives better sound |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 17 May 20 - 08:08 PM I'm wondering if the tunes are famous church carillons or famous clock tower chimes like the Winchester chimes, but being an Aussie I don't recognise them. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 May 20 - 03:24 AM I like that last suggestion, Helen. I suppose the fact that they are struck bells might give that impression but it's certainly a possibility. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 05:02 AM Dear all - thanks very much for your input. The clock was made in Oxford (Oxfordshire/England/UK) and the maker's shop there only finally closed in December 2019 (Rowell's). I can assure you that none of these are "standard" clock chimes and the good peolpe of EFDSS (the English Folk and Dance Song Society) have identified two of the tunes via their facebook page: Tune 1 = "Codiad yr Ehedydd": as played by musicians here> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeHTQs6VDX0&fbclid=IwAR1_NiBm9rjZlgBVQUNc9nabYGhvuwsQeJtWZGQJSwj_-tNcnxYVjWccdPU Tune 2 = "Begone Dull Care": as played by musicians here> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHgdenQwDbk&fbclid=IwAR0Whfru-iT1YoYJtCJ6HavgJpW5BsodrZ2sJbsS4UxRFBxiwM_4c2LLDAU Compared with the clock - each of these are quite recognisable. The films posted by EFDSS on facebook were of the clock playing tunes BEFORE cleaning - so they're slower/more laboured. Does that help with identification? Would it be worth my posting the "slow" versions on YouTube...? Let me know. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 05:05 AM PS - I like the idea of tune 7 being hymn-like. The clock indexes the tune on once a day so yes - likely that the "Sunday" tune will be a hymn (and the other 6 "secular"!!!) |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 18 May 20 - 05:15 AM Tune # 1 "Codiad yr Ehedydd" The Rising of the Lark Ok, listening to it now with that tune in mind I can hear it. A long time ago I started learning to play that tune but never progressed very far with it. I'm having a bit of trouble hearing Begone Dull Care in tune # 2 John, the slower more laboured tunes may help with identification. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 05:17 AM Helen, Thanks - I'll upload to You Tube. John |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 18 May 20 - 06:36 AM Thanks John. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 06:57 AM Helen - internet awful this morning - still trying to action on you tube. John |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Jack Campin Date: 18 May 20 - 07:59 AM Helen's suggestion is good - the sound was probably intended to be the result of anchoring the mechanism to the clock case. Gluing it to a guitar body might work. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 08:10 AM Helen, John, The case is many miles away in lockdown! It sounds passable on my PC with its detached/stand-alone speakers but I can understand it would sound bad on a mobile phone speaker. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 18 May 20 - 08:14 AM SO... 12 tunes uploaded to You Tube 7 "fast" - running on the clean mechanism 5 "slow" - running on the "dirty" mechanism (I seem to have lost 2 original films through giving them duplicate names :-/ ) I can regenerate the 2 missing "slow" films, next week some time (when the whole thing is back together), if they're helpful to anyone... |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 18 May 20 - 03:46 PM Thanks John, that makes it easier to hear the tunes. In the "clean" tunes there is a lot of extra sound because each prong/tine (correct terminology?) keeps ringing after it is struck so it sounds like a small sea of noise. To pick out the melody from all the sounds was difficult. Listening to the slow ones it's easier to identify which notes are the melody. Now to identify the tunes. Is it possible that some more of the tunes are Welsh? I had a little twinge of recognition on one of the tunes but I'll have to listen to them all again and try to dredge up more information from my ageing brain. Also now that I have heard the slow tunes, the clean tunes might make more sense. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 18 May 20 - 03:52 PM I just looked more closely at the mechanism and realised that they are little hammers hitting little bells. I was assuming it was like a music box with the prongs/tines being hit by the spikes on the turning wheel. Sorry about my lack of knowledge of the proper terminology. Tune # 3 slow version definitely sounds familiar. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,Hihi the kiwi Date: 18 May 20 - 06:05 PM given that each of those bells is a discrete note could someone write out the tune as notation? I think it may be easier to recognise if played on a different instrument as the ringing over from the bells is not helping. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 18 May 20 - 06:32 PM Yes, Hihi the kiwi (Hi from across the pond - no, not the big pond, over here to the west) I had the same thought but I'm not a wiz at notating tunes by ear. I did start trying to work out tune # 3 and saved it as a midi file but I just tried to find the ABC Converter at Mandolin Tabs website and the message was that the account is suspended. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,Starship Date: 18 May 20 - 06:42 PM Instead of trying to hear the notes struck, is there some way to tell what each bell's note is and then just see which bells the hammers hit and in what sequence? After once through to determine a given bell's note then one doesn't need the sound. Just watch the hammers, because there's just one hammer per bell. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 03:42 AM Does anyone else think that Tune # 3 sounds familiar? I know I have heard it before but I can't seem to get any closer to identifying it. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 19 May 20 - 04:14 AM Helen, Starship - thanks for all your suggestions and input. A more skilled musician than I would be needed to do the notation (like most guitarists - I play by ear!). I did do films - rather than audio recordings - in case anybody wanted to pick apart the sequence of notes. Just a word of warning - I'm fairly sure this nest of thirteen bells does not conform to the 12 note chromatic music scale we westerners are used-to in the modern day. Don't know whether that is the limitation of bell making/tuning at the time - or whether musical scales were different back then. I'm vaguely aware, for example, that some of the baroque music (Vivaldi etc) and medieval music, was written using different scales and has to be transposed to be played on modern instruments... All a bit above my pay-grade! |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 04:58 AM I have done a rough approximation of Tune # 3 and saved it as a midi file. It made sense in the key of F Major, which has one flat, i.e. B flat. I can't post it here unless I do a bit of mental gymnastics and manually make it into an ABC notation. Personally, I don't think it will make it any easier to identify the tunes to create music notation. I did suggest before that Tune # 6 reminded me of Good King Wenceslaus, but I've listened to it again and I've changed my mind. Given that the clock was made in 1834 it's quite possible that the tunes may have been well known back then, but nearly 200 years later some of them may have dropped into obscurity. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 19 May 20 - 05:39 AM Helen, Re your last point and the tunes having dropped into obscurity - that's what makes this project so interesting. The machine captures the notes, the phrasing etc from 1834 - the nearest thing we'll get to a live recording from that year! These tunes could be the basis for a great folk/roots concept album... :-) |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 06:02 AM I agree John, an interesting project. If only we could identify the tunes it would make it easier to follow up with some research. I'm still wondering if some of the other tunes are also Welsh, possibly including a hymn or two. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 19 May 20 - 06:34 AM I've made the acquaintance of someone closely involved with "trac: music traditions wales - traddodiadau cerdd cymru" - and she doesn't recoginise any of the rest as Welsh... (or recognise them at all. She's helping me explore other avenues - she suggested mudcat). |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 19 May 20 - 06:46 AM Yay! Got another one! Tune 7 is indeed a hymn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5BDcfzFTOQ "Tune is "Illsley" and was written by John Bishop (1665-1737). In my hymn book it is used for an evening office hymn “O Trinity of blessed light, O Unity of primal might, The fiery sun now goes his way, Shed thou within our hearts thy ray”. The words were translated from the Latin by J M Neale (1818-1866), but this tune may have been used for other hymns in 1834. Long Metre is the second most common metre (after “Common Metre”)." Grateful thanks to Mr Geoffrey Hunter of the Church of England. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 07:12 AM Yay! Only four more to find! :-) |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 02:48 PM So, to summarise what we know so far and some more information on two of the tunes. Tune # 1 Codiad yr Ehedydd: The Rising of the Lark Composer: OWEN, DAVID (‘Dafydd y Garreg Wen '; 1711 - 1741), harpist attained fame both as harpist and as the reputed composer of the airs called ‘Dafydd y Garreg Wen’ (‘David of the White Rock’), ‘Codiad yr Ehedydd’ (‘The rising of the lark’), and ‘Difyrrwch gwyr Criccieth’ (‘The delight of the men of Criccieth’). He died on 2 August 1741 and was buried in Ynyscynhaearn churchyard. "Codiad yr Ehedydd: The Rising of the Lark published by Olivia Buckley Dussek , 1799-1847. Single work for solo harp. Three of Olivia Buckley Dussek’s arrangements of Welsh Airs - The March of the Men of Harlech, Rising of the Lark and Megan’s Daughter have been re-set and re-published by Adlais as part of our ‘Victorian Favourites' series." The Traditional Tune Archive has some information including the music notation and ABC Notation. "Codiad yr Ehedydd" Tune # 2 Begone Dull Care Begone Dull Care notes the following printed sources: Printed sources : - Aird (Selection of Scotch, English, Irish and Foreign Airs, vol. 4), 1796; No. 173, p. 65. Howe (Complete Preceptor for the Accordeon), 1843; p. 8 (appears as "Kinlock"). Kerr (Merry Melodies), vol. 3; No. 399, p. 44. O'Farrell (Pocket Companion, vol. II), c. 1806; p. 159. Begone Dull Care has this comment about Benjamin Britten's arrangement for performance in a school environment: "The text was written by an anonymous artist in the 17th century, and was published in a book called English Lyrical Verse (The King’s Treasuries)." Tune # 7 See John the Clockmaker's post on 19 May 20 - 06:46 AM "Tune is "Illsley" and was written by John Bishop (1665-1737)." I'm wondering whether one of the printed sources mentioned on the pages I found could also hold the other tunes that we are looking for. Further research is needed. I'm hoping to find online copies to see a list of other tunes in the books or even digital copies of the books to be able to see the music notation of other tunes. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 04:59 PM Digital archive of Aird Selection of Scotch, English, Irish and Foreign Airs, vol. 4 That page is the start of the index of Vol 4 Begone Dull Care Volumes 1- 3 also available. The books have music notation for a large number of tunes. If my guess is correct the tunes for the clock, other than the hymn(s) perhaps, may have been found in books like these volumes and the other tunes may also be in the same book. By reading through the tune titles on the index pages it's possible that someone might recognise the clock tunes. Maybe it's a long shot, but it could be a starting point for the search. I found a few tunes which I know about abut didn't realise how old they were. I haven't looked yet for the other books I mentioned above. An aside: These digital archives are a treasure trove. I love libraries!!! Thank you librarians and library staff for the wonderful work you do. (I shouldn't have quit my job as a librarian back in the late '90's. Big mistake!) |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 05:36 PM Tune # 3 Is it Can Ye Sew Cushions? Here it is performed by Jean Redpath |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 05:56 PM So, Can Ye Sew Cushions is on page 69 of Aird's book, volume 4, and Begone Dull Care is on page 65. I have another theory which has been ticking over in my mind. Codiad yr Ehedydd is a Welsh tune Begone Dull Care is an English tune Can Ye Sew Cushions is a Scottish tune Is Tune # 4 - or # 5 or # 6 - an Irish tune? And Tune # 7 is a hymn (Someone tell me to get a life, please!) |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 19 May 20 - 07:22 PM Tune # 4 Miss Wardlaw's Reel maybe? Page 49 in the Aird Vol 4 Miss Wardlaw's Reel |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 20 May 20 - 05:26 AM Helen, Fantastic work. I'm letting a pianist/organist friend of mine look at the staves - given I don't sight read. Just love the archive finds - just the "feel" of the documents brings another time to life, doesn't it?! "Can yes sew cushions" is available in several versions on you tube (all audibly the same tune) and I can hear similarities in structure and rhythm - but I couldn't hear the exact same tune as clock#3. I've asked my pianist friend for her thoughts. No version of "Miss Wardlaw's Reel" on you tube, for us play-by-ear types, to listen to - sadly. Thanks again - we're edging closer... |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 06:45 AM Sorry, I posted the same link twice. I found a sound file of Miss Wardlaw's Reel |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 06:46 AM Or a slower version here Miss Wardlaw's Reel |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 20 May 20 - 07:20 AM Thanks Helen, I'll have a listen when I get back from Sainsbury's...:-) |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 20 May 20 - 12:21 PM Interesting find. To "convert" this type of audio to MIDI, the free software "AmazingMidi" may work (not amazingly, but free). There are several free and easy-to-use software products available to convert MIDI to ABC. A better idea would be to use Themefinder – if the tunes were more common than they obviously are. I'd give it zero chance in this case, but good to know anyway. In the end, human experts are required, as to be found on Mudcat – where else? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 12:46 PM Grishka, I just hit the 'play' button on both of those sites and the audio file played. Why do you need to convert the file? |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 12:55 PM Just found this. Our very own Jack Campin has a page with ABC files of tunes from Aird's Vol 4. Miss Wardlaw's Reel - ABC file is about three quarters of the way down the page. Thanks Jack! You're a legend! X:0725 T:Miss Wardlaw's Reel. M:C L:1/8 Q:1/2=104 I: :: :| Z:Jack Campin * www.campin.me.uk * 2009 K:G D|G2BG BgdB|G2BG FAFD|G2BG BgdB|cAFA G2G:| f|g2d=f ecAc|BdFA GFED|g2d=f ecAc|BdDf G2G f|g2d=f ecAc|BdFA GFED|ced=f ecAc|BdFA G2G|] and Can Ye Sew Cushions is further down the page: X:0783 T:Can ye Sew Cushions. M:C L:1/8 I: || || Z:Jack Campin * www.campin.me.uk * 2009 K:G Q:1/4=96 "Slow" G| G>B`g>e dB2 z/G/| G>B(g>e) d3e|d>B(B>A) G>G(G>A)|B>A(A>G) G3G| (G>B)g>e dB2 z/G/|(G>B)g>e d3e|d>BB>A G M:2/4 Q:1/4=128 "Quick" G|BG D2 |A/G/A/B/ BA|B>GD>B|(A>G)G2 |\ B>GD |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 20 May 20 - 01:10 PM Helen (20 May 20 - 12:46 PM) Why do you need to convert the file?I don't, and I doubt it is of much use for the problem here. That is what I was trying to point out in response to those posters above who raised the questions. Nevertheless, it is good to know which tools exist, in case we need them. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 01:32 PM Thanks Grishka, you're right. Sorry, I was a bit confused. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: GUEST,John the Clockmaker Date: 20 May 20 - 03:16 PM Wow folks - seems like you're on a roll here - I don't pretend to understand that MIDIs and ABCs but hope they help solve the puzzle. Night all - and thank you. |
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Subject: RE: Tune Req: 1834 Clock, Plays7tunes, what are they? From: Helen Date: 20 May 20 - 06:16 PM A quick explanation, John. On Mudcat, most of the regulars probably talk in shorthand about MIDI files and ABC notation. The MIDI files can't be posted in threads so instead the ABC files can be read by knowledgeable people or translated by software back into MIDI files so that it becomes an audio file again, but it also has the advantage of being able to be opened in music notation software so then the music notation can be viewed on screen and printed by anyone. It's a software sleight of hand trick which is useful for a text based forum for sharing music notation among each other. My music notation programme is Noteworthy Composer NWC), a cheapie but a goodie. To find the clock tunes so far, I listened to one of the tunes, then tried to turn it into music notation on NWC by listening phrase by phrase and adding the notes and adjusting the timing of each note until it sounded about right. (Note, I'm not terribly good at identifying tunes and notating them so this is a good brain training exercise for me.) Then, being able to see the music notation on screen, I could look at all of the music in Vol 4 of Aird (because I thought it might be a good place to start as it was published in 1796 and Begone Dull Care is one of the tunes in the book) and then look at the beginning couple of bars of all the tunes in the book until I found one which looked similar. Then I go searching the internet for audio or video files of the tune to check if it sounds similar to the clock tune. Does this mean that I might be correct about Tune # 3 and Tune # 4? Which would mean that my deduction about other tunes being in the same book was correct too? I might not be so lucky with Tunes # 5 & 6. I have to confess, I'm not very taken by the tune of Miss Wardlaw's Reel. If I had been choosing tunes, I don't think that is one that I would have chosen. However, having said that, it might be all in the playing. Hearing it on an audio file is a lot different to the way it would sound in real life with musicians giving it a bit of swing. |
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