BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism

Subject: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 09:34 PM

Just watched Suspino - A Cry for Roma. It was amazing to realize that pogroms against gypsies are still carried out in Europe. Romania is a country that I do not know much about but I am surprised that the rest of the world continues to turn a blind eye to the plight of the Roma. If you are interested in reading more:

http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/sacr1.html

I highly recommend the DVD.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:20 PM

It'd be happening in Britain too, if Mr Howard had his way.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:20 PM

I once read a book called 'Racism and migrant labour' by Robert Miles, a bit hard work but he points to the connection between people as migrant workers and the rascist treatment they reveive.

The poor Roma forever suffer in this context, as have Jewish and Irish people in others.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 12:28 PM

It's always happened... society chooses a boogeyman because it won't face up to it's own failings, and proceeds to victimise them mercilessly. It's a particularly cowardly and damaging trait we have as humans...

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:40 PM

In England we even have the main opposition party trying to get votes by joining in with the tabloid papers in a campaign of hate against gypsies.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:46 PM

I'm trying to think of an equivalent we have in the US. Illegal Migrants is perhaps our hot button. But the complaint there is jobs, not race. Although 'jobs' is a red herring- our society in many parts of the country would collapse if illegal migration were turned off over night, because our people don't want jobs that don't pay.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:48 PM

Reading even the front pages of the Mail, Express etc reminds me why we needed Alistair Campbell

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 04:18 PM

Yeah, I think I'd agree with Ebbie that illegal aliens are the scapegoats in the U.S., particularly if those aliens are Hispanic. There's a huge movement going on now, people volunteering to help patrol the Mexican border and report movement of aliens across the border - it all sounds like a bunch of vigilantes to me. I'm sure the Border Patrol doesn't appreciate the "assistance."

As for Roma in the U.S., I think they're virtually unknown and unnoticed. That's not to say that they're completely accepted or that their lot in the U.S. is wonderful - but I think they're essentially invisible in the U.S.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 05:38 PM

The plight of Hispanic people as migrant workers who suffer racism supports Miles hypothesis.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:09 PM

When I lived in Japan I had to carry an 'Alien Registration Card' at all times as well as having my finger prints taken when I did register.

This was a bit of a surprise as no Japanese citizen has to carry an ID, only foreigners. On looking into it and talking to friends I found out more about the treatment of ethnic Koreans and Chinese. These are groups of people who have been born in Japan often to parents who were taken as forced labour prior to and during WWII. They can never get full Japanese citizenship and are not allowed to take jobs in management positions. A recent case was highlighted where a nurse applied for a sisters position in a hospital but due to her Korean ethnicity it was refused despite the fact she had been born in Japan and Japanese was her first language.

These groups more often than not do not marry 'full' blooded Japanese even if they take Japanese names as background check are carried out of the prospective partners as to their parentage and heredity.

Even amongst the Japanese there is a sub group called the burakumin who are descendants or children of those Japanese who worked with butchering meat, preparing leather, or burying the dead. In olden times they were called 'eta' (filth) and were forced into the lowest and dirtiest jobs such as night soil collectors. This group is forced to intermarry as 'normal' Japanese would not marry them.

Add to that the dalit class in India and you have millions of people in the East who are disadvantaged by their background.

I have seen some pretty blatant discrimination here in Shanghai where Shanghaiese (who are probably the worst) refer to non Shanghai people as waidiren. They are not just verbally rude to them but often will serve Shanghaiese first in a shop or even just ignore them or try and cheat them. But the howls of outrage when Shanghaiese are similarly treated when the boot is on the other foot is a joy to see.

Blatant racism is not just a European phenomena but alive and well in the far east.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:22 PM

From what I understand, the gypsies of Romania were brought to Europe from Pakistan as slaves. When slavery ended, they were the victims of no less than 30 pogroms, including the Nazi extermination camps.

I thought the treatment of Blacks in North America was bad but Europeans seem to completely ignore the plight of their most oppressed people. In Romania the discrimation is especially hateful.

Its my hope that everyone will increase their awareness of the lack of human rights and force their governments to do something positive to end the suffering of Romanian Gypsies.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:41 PM

OK, we are into one of the biggest issues around. As for Japan, I am out of my depth, but does the Empier thing rear irs head again?

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 06:56 PM

We have at least another 2 Roma members on Mudcat. They also speak the Roma language, which I, to my shame, don't (I am 1/32 or 1/64 Vlach, or shepherd Roma, depending on whose story I believe, my gran's or my Mum's).

But, GUEST, we don't need Michael Howard to make the Roma suffer - we already do that, and have done so for decades. Both in the UK and all over Europe. They were just as viciously culled as the Jews by the Nazis, except their plight was never highlighted, they don't have any Holocaust memorials, no funds were allocated for any Roma survivors of the camps ($14 billion for the Jewish survivors, I believe), no country to open its arms to them, no powerful lobbies, and precious few to speak up for them.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 09:09 PM

Are there any solid figures for how many Roma there are, worldwide, and how they are dispersed?

When I was a kid(40s) there were still stories of abduction and theft and unaccountability of and by "gypsies" but if memory serves me, when it came to unacceptable practices within the cities, the "Williamson Gang" was much more commonly spoken of. I suppose it is possible that the 'Williamsons' were Roma.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 09:22 PM

I'd love to know lf there is a ANY place in the world where there are people of different races and ethnicities and there is no racism or bias.

And what makes it worse, people who are targeted also target their own. I am speaking here of people of African descent in the USA, and the Caribbean favoring those whose skins are lighter, and at the same time also giving those who are light skinned difficult times on a personal level.

But I wonder if the same in-fighting occurs within other discriminated groups.

For instance, I wonder whether the Roma look down on people of African descent. And it would be interesting to know if the Dalit of India-who are often much darker than African Americans or Coloureds of South African think they are better than those groups, even if they may not have met any person from that group.

It's all sick...

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 10:03 PM

I know, Azizi. I have a friend, who when he was considering whether he should propose marriage to someone of whom he was fond, said "We're well matched, since we're both 'high yellow'. He didn't say it to me but to a mutual friend or I would have asked some questions. I have never heard such a term in everyday life, only in books.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: open mike
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:53 AM

for an interesting documentary on Romani (gypsy) (not necessarily Romainian or Egyptian which is where "Gypsy" is derived) see Latcho Drom
(Safe Journey) review here: http://www.prairienet.org/ejahiel/latcho.htm
and here: http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/movies/l/latcho.html
I think of carnivals and circus being a place where some of these folks can be found in the U.S. that may be just a stereotype, but i think they would travel by car and truck rather than horse cart these days. But those carts are (were?) beautiful!!

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 03:36 AM

People may discriminate against others for a whole host of reasons but their is nothing like a does of colonialism to organise it into state sposored racism. See European and Japanese Empires for effect.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 03:51 AM

Well, InOBU/Lorcan has been decrying the racist attitudes towards the Rom in the US on this forum for a very very long time. Yes, it exists. What can 'we' do about it? I don't know, except for what 'I' can do.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 04:00 AM

I think the gypsies of Romania are a symbol of homeless people everywhere. Persecuted, homeless, minorities. It will take a huge international outcry to end their plight. Good government cares about all of its people.

Azizi - Roms come in all colours. They share a language and common customs and traditions that bind them. This isn't a matter of skin colour and social attitudes, its a matter of genocide. I'm amazed they have survived this long!

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 06:29 AM

Dont be rediculous.
Michael Howard is pointing out that gypsies are BREAKING PLANNING RULES. Its against the law, simple as that. These sites are illegal, so why the hell should they be allowed to stay there?

These are not Romani gypsies that are law abiding - i have several friends who are.

These are gypsies coming over from Ireland because the laws are a lot tighter over there. FACT

It is Labour that has been racist towards the Jews with their election posters depicting Letwin and Howard (both Jewish) as pigs, and Howard as Fagan.
Also Labours references to how Conservative policies have a whiff of the gas chambers about them. Disgusting, along with the vote rigging in Birmingham, and ivestigations is 8 other towns....

your comments?
respectfully

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 06:37 AM

Dianavan,

I appreciate your comments. I share your concerns about the plight of discriminated groups of people. I also concur with your statements for the need for 'Good government to care about all of its people".

In my previous post I was making the observation that some people of African descent discriminate against others because of skin color [see Ebbie's post for one example of this many faceted experience]

And I wondered if skin color or other types of internal discrimination occured in ethnic groups like the Romas.

I also was curious if there was some evidence that suggested that groups like the Romas and Dalits of India who are themselves discriminated against, looked down on other discriminated people.

If for instance, the Romas have a bias against African Americans,
I would still feel that they should not be the target of any governmental, institutional, or personal discrimination, but as an African American, that would make a difference in how I felt about that group.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM

Fair enough to complain if they are breaking planning rules, but also - there is no law to say people must live in houses.
By making it impossible for gypsies and travellers to stay anywhere without being persecuted, it is effectively making it a law to live in a house.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 09:04 AM

Would them buying a piece of land help? Would they be given planning permission for their caravans? Would the locals who object to them settling nearby be different if they owned the land?

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 09:13 AM

The problem in the UK is that all travelling people get tarred with the same brush.

My daughter lives in a town in which a large number of 'gypsies' had settled. The area in which they lived was notorious for the trouble that went on there, between the residents themselves and involving outsiders. Certain pubs in the town were basically almost no go areas as the clientel were predominantly 'gypsies'. My daughter fought tooth and nail when the rules on school places was changed to stop her son from being placed in the school used by these people. These were what are also known as Irish tinkers, a completely different thing from the Romany gypsies for whom I have a lot of respect.

Unfortunately the tinkers tend to be unpopular wherever they land up. In the town I lived in visits by tinkers coincided with higher crime rates for burglaries and violence. When they moved on the illegal sites they left resembled rubbish tips. In spite of the fact that there were official sites these were not used. Those living on the official sites liked the tinkers even less than the townfolk as they were stuck with the same reputation.

I had a very liberal friend who, when tinkers invaded his town, reckoned that he could see where Hitler was coming from. That is the sort of reaction that this particular group can arouse in normally very laid back individuals.

The media do not help in this matter. When a number of Roma landed in Dover as illegal immigrants we were assailed with stories of their lawless ways, the rise in crime in the area and that they had made a beeline for the UK to take advantage of the benefits to be had here. How much of that was true I couldn't say, but it was printed in the papers and people believe what they see in print.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 10:25 AM

The "breaches of planning regulations" that the Tories are trying to make a big deal of have generally occurred where gypsy or other travellers have purchased patches of land in order to have somewhere to put their caravans, and have been refused planning permission to do so often on for very questionable reasons.

They have then gone ahead anyway and used the pitches.

This has occurred in a siutuation where the last Tory government abolished the duty of local authorities to provide suitable sites for travellers - a duty which they had for the most part ignored, without suffering any kind of penalty. Tories are very selective about what "breaches of regulations" they believe should be proescuted. (Labour hasn't much to boast about - they've been in power since 1997 and they've done nothing to reverse the Tory ban.)

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 12:17 PM

Azizi - I do not know of any incidents where gypsies or travelling people discriminated against African Americans or anyone of African descent. Its difficult to discriminate when you are on the bottom of the heap. Besides that, its unlikely (demographically) that they have had much of a chance to form an opinion.

Do Afro-Americans discriminate against gypsies? Probably depends on whether they are land owners or not.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:11 PM

Thanks for a response Dianavan.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:39 PM

I always remember an encounter I saw in Ongar, Essex, quite a few years ago - a family of local Romany Gypsies were making their way along the pavement, and they ran into a young Asian family; young children on both sides, and both children and adults dressed in ways that distinguished them from the people around.

It was pretty clear that neither had ever met anyone like that before - Asian families tend to live in towns, and this was even more so, all those years ago. But they seemed to be getting on well together, admiring each others finery and children. I remember thinking how strange it was how two sets of people, originating from the Indian sub-continent at such widely different times, had run into each other on the other side of the world, on a spring morning in Essex.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,BF
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 02:28 PM

correct,
there is a BIG difference between the real Romany gypsies of old, and the scum that go as gypsies.

We have had 2 gypsy groups set up near as and the local crime rate soared. They burned tyres, gas cylinders and cars, dug trenches, and had barbed wire to try and prevent the bailiffs from shifting them.
At another gypsy site, there was a death that is still unexplained. They just ditched the burnt out caravan on the road and buggered off, leaving excrement behind.

Do not confuse the two.
the problem is set to get worse now that Ireland has clamped down on them

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: jacqui.c
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 02:39 PM

There are still Romany gypsies around but all the publicity is aimed at the tinkers who DO cause major problems. The Romanies don't like the tinkers either.

On the question of prejudice - in the part of the UK I lived in their was much more ill feeling between those of West Indian and Asian origin than between either race and the British.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 04:00 PM

'On the question of prejudice - in the part of the UK I lived in their was much more ill feeling between those of West Indian and Asian origin than between either race and the British.'

In my experience in Manchester this is not the case.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 04:05 PM

The brits are rarely blatant in their racism. They have neither the balls or intellect to put their prejudices into language.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:08 PM

And do you have the balls to put a name to yourself or can you just not spell it Guest?

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:40 PM

BF - what a very suitable set of initials.

Divide and rule, pick out some bunch of outcasts to prefer over another. The Nazis used to go in for that kind of thing, picking our one variety of gypsy or traveller as superior or inferior. Some made quite a hobby of it. Then they gassed the lot.

Read "The Destiny of Europe's Gypsies" by Donald Penrick and Grattan Puxon ; or Grattan wrote another book about it "Gypsies under the Swastika".

I would reserve the expression "scum" for racists of all types at all times.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Brakn
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 09:59 PM

Chewing gum on the pavements, litter and take-away food tray in gardens, cars parked all over pavements, people spitting, dogs shitting anywhere, 4x4s, number plates, cigarette butts, drunks being sick, kids sniffing coke from the toilet windows in the local, old folk being afraid to go out at night, girls falling about drunk showing what they've got - like their latest tattoo in chinese - ha, crap in the newspapers, crap on the tele and a bloody election coming up. Yes, you're right! It's Johnny Foreigner.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 03:53 AM

This is what happens when cultural genocide takes place.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,BF
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:30 AM

just to be clear, i am not the guest who posted just above, and the letters BF are just to distinguish that. Sorry McGrath, there is no special meaning behind these letters, just BF.

regards

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 09:12 AM

I'm reading a very interesting book called the "Black Diaspora, Five Generations of The Black Experience" written by Ronald Segal.
I'd like to share a passage from that book's preface:

This quote may be off-topic as it does not speak to the anti-social behavior of members of an oppressed group [the same behavior which may occur in the same, greater, or lesser degree among members of non-oppressed groups]. However I believe that this excerpt is worthy of consideration.

[Speaking of the need for Jewish people in South Africa to be more vehement in their opposition to the establishment of apartheid]
"I continued to believe then as I believe now that a people with a past infused bu oppression and suffering is charged with a special responsibility, to remember and remind: to redeem that past with a creative meaning" to recognize and insist that we must treat one another as equally human, beyond differences of race or nationality; religion or culture, if we are not to become mere beast that talk."

-snip-

It seems to me that far too often when some 'minority' individuals who by dent of luck, or personal struggle, 'make it' out of poverty, they share the majority culture's bias against their group and against other oppressed groups. Concerned with living the good life, far too often these individuals fail to use their wealth and power and influence to work to remove the institutional and attitudinal barriers that keep people in poverty and keep people oppressed.

And it seems to me that poverty and oppression is closely tied together.

This is not to say I condone the anti-social behaviors described in previous posts that have been attributed to Romas, tinkers, and/or Gypsies [pardon my lack of familiarily with these terms]. Because of have no personal knowledge of these people, I can't say if the behaviors described are typical.

What I can say is that lumping all Romas, Gypsies, and tinkers together and attributing negative behabviors to all of them sounds disturbingly similar to what has been [and to some extent still is done] with Black people.

And I don't like it one bit.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 01:10 PM

Azizis earlier comment is interesting..
ie..
...if Romas have a bias against African Americans,
I would still feel that they should not be the target of any governmental, institutional, or personal discrimination, but as an African American, that would make a difference in how I felt about that group...

...
if you make a decision to feel anyway about a 'group' ..
sounds like racism to me...

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 01:16 PM

You are right. I stand corrected.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 01:29 PM

And if an individual of another race or ethnicity dislikes me and/or Black people in general because of race/ethnicity [since there are numerous Black ethnicities, too], I am aware that it would be wrong to reciprocate based on racial/ethnic reasons.

But what I meant by that earlier post was if this was an attitude that was documented to be widespread in that person's group, I would be less inclined to direct my limited energy on behalf of that group's causes.

Perhaps I should feel otherwise, but as the saying goes among African Americans [and maybe others too] , "God isn't finished with me yet".

Translation=I'm not perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:52 PM

Gypsies and other travellers in the UK tend to live outside the cities, Black and Asian people tend to live in the cities, so occasions for contact between them are relatively uncommon.

I remember when I was a social worker I had a black colleague who had occasion to work with some travellers with a disabled family member - she said that she always felt that they just saw her as another housedweller and official, with those being the significant differences, rather than anything to do with colour or that stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:29 PM

I think it is true that gypsies, tinkers and/or Rom are all victims of racism but perhaps a better explanation would be that the tension exists between the land owners and those without a home.

In the case of the Roms of Romania, racism is being used as an excuse to discriminate against the poor, uneducated and homeless.

And yes, Azizi, those that escape discrimation and are easily assimilated into White culture often forget the suffering of their own people. The attitude seems to be that if they can do it, anyone can do it when, in fact, they may have achieved their status due to their light coloured skin or their ability to 'pass'. Its true that hard work and perserverance play a part but that is not the whole story. Quite often there is a tendency to want to disassociate with a culture that seems to 'hold you back'.

Did you know that among the socially elite, the colour of your skin means nothing? Racism is a tool used by the upper classes to keep the middle and lower classes separated. If people could just get past racial attitudes, the middle and lower classes might find some political strength.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 04:15 AM

This line, "I respect the true Romanies, but these are just tinkers" is the modern equivalent of "some of my best friends are Jews but..", or "I'm not racially prejudiced but.."

Simply a cover for the last officially acceptable racism in Europe. A convenient crack for the neonazis to stick their skewdriver into.

dinavan:

"From what I understand, the gypsies of Romania were brought to Europe from Pakistan as slaves. "

That's simply tripe. For a start, Pakistan didn't exist until 1947. The Roma seem to have turned up in Europe in the early mediaval period. They may well have travelled from Northern India, but as far as anyone can tell it was under their own steam.

But it's absolutely true that they have suffered serious discrimination over the years, and that this is not only still going on but intensifying.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM

Roma and Romania are distinct things.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 03:54 PM

When they came for the ................ I said nothing because I was not ..................

When they came for ............. I said nothing because I was not ........

When they came for me their was no one left to say anything

Now, who said that then?

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:14 PM

For you Guest:

"c.1300. The Romani Aresajipe; the arrival of Roma in Europe.

Romani groups begin to be enslaved in southeast Europe.

1322. Roma are recorded on the island of Crete.

1348. Roma are recorded in Prizren, Serbia.

1362. Roma are recorded in Dubrovnik, Croatia.

1373. Roma are recorded on the island of Corfu.

1378. Roma are recorded living in villages near Rila Monastery, Bulgaria.

1384. Romani shoemakers are recorded in Modon, Greece.

1385. The first recorded transaction of Roma slaves in Romania.

1387. Mircea the Great of Wallachia indicates that Roma have been in that country for over one hundred years."

Google Roma Gypsies if you doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: GUEST,pete
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:36 PM

thats pretty much what guest said, they arrived in the medieval period,
no - evidence they were brought as slaves.
and not just to romania, but all of Europe.
(Romania - also has nothing to do with the term Roma)

Subject: RE: BS: A shocking tale of blatant racism
From: hilda fish
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:37 AM

I always read these sort of posts with total interest but often these days I don't comment - it's just too hard. Roma used to travel outside the towns here and stay in my people's camps - thus my blood is Indigenous and Roma as is very many of my people. However we identify as Indigenous and we have various shades yeller feller being one - which would be how I'd be described. From the non-indigenous group I'm not dark AND not light enough and from the indigenous people I am often not dark enough. In America I am regarded as 'coloured' but not 'black' and Afro Americans have looked down on me as not knowing 'where it's at' because I don't fit the 'dark enough' tag. In Europe on the other hand, I am regarded as black by white Europeans and treated as an 'exotic' while Africans etc. regard me as 'white'. Often there is a hierarchy and it seems to be based on the idea of how much one has suffered but also about education and property? The blacker you are, the hierarchy seems to suggest, the more one understands oppression. Certainly I can hide more easily in the white group if I choose.   Interesting story - once while with a former partner we visited one of his musician friends whose husband was Dutch. He was a a charming man in every way but one day, while we were in his workshop he made the comment 'if I was ever aware of a gypsy around me I would kill it' while wielding an axe. My partner almost gave me away thinking it was a joke but fortunately I stopped him in time. This man continued, with the support of his wife, to elaborate on his hatred of gypsies who he clearly saw as not even a sub-human class who broke laws, stole, had no idea of private property etc. In his vitriol he included Indigenous peoples who he saw as useless and worthless, filthy and shameful. Another story - while in a remote region of this country another partner and I called into a garage and the owner who had a pack of dogs, explained how they could sniff out and rip to bits any Indigenous person. My partner was also about to give me away as an illustration of how the dogs had clearly failed in their task but I once again stopped him in time. This man also went on and on about what a disgusting sub-species we were who did not 'get' any part of civilised society. Later when this partner asked if I were attacked or threatened by any white person in this remote region what should he do? I told him to disappear and leave them to it. I would need him to rescue me and take me to the hospital later. If he tried to defend me in any way he would be killed. So - gypsies - or anyone - who is said to be 'unlawful' becomes, by definition a sub-class of the human species and that is a good start to being complicit in an act of murder. Many murders are called genocide and this is where a group of people are simply killed for what they cannot help - who they are. It doesn't matter if they are law abiding or not, clean or not, on the road or in a house - we are all human being but sometimes I have to pretend that who I am is not but who 'they' think I am is, if that makes sense. It's called survival and it's about trying to make sense of an imposed culture that has its own laws and talks about democracy while completing stomping all over minority cultures. I met many Gitane/Gypsy whatever in Europe who live in terror as they do in many parts of the world, hidden or not. Heirarchies seem to me to be based often enough, on property and education. Gypsies don't 'own' land - Indigenous people don't 'own' land - and we do have the right to live on this planet as human beings without being killed or the sort of discussions above where we are talked about like bloody ants or something which is to be observed, commented on, dehumanised, and then ........... oh dear - killed. Oh dear oh dear. I'm off like a rocket! First post re movie is spot on as is comment re Latchmo Drom.