Help: South Yorkshire Carols

Subject: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 02:16 PM

It is approaching the time of year when the South Yorkshire Carols are performed. Do any of you out there have details of where and when they will be happening this year? I once got to Dungworth many years back. I would like to be able to plan ahead this year and get to at least one of the sessions. Can anyone provide me with up to the minute information?
Ta.
Geoff the Duck.

For those who are not aware of the tradition, over a few Sunday afternoons approaching Christmas, one of a number of villages near Sheffield host a gathering where a large number of carols are sung (including about 20 versions on While Shepherds to different tunes, some with choruses). The events take place in a different village pub each week.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 02:21 PM

PM Malcolm Douglas. He knows everything :-)

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: flaj
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 03:01 PM

Geoff

Have a word with Andrew when you next see him as he's taken me to some of them in the past, though the ones we went to were evening ones in Sheffield area, the folks that go to them also go to the Sunday ones.

We picked up a copy of "Jack Goodison's collection of Local and Traditional Carols" which contains several tune versions of while "Shepherds watched" including "Old Foster" "47th Psalm", "Cranbrook", Pentonville", "Sweet Christmas Bells", "Sweet Chiming Bells", "October", "Lyngham", "Crimond", "Hail Chime On", "Liverpool" and "Lloyd".

We talked of going this year so perhaps we'll see you at one,

Chris.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 03:22 PM

I might make use of the Mudcat PM system, but thought that if somebody posts details to this thread, it might be of interest to other 'catters. Also, if anyone can add interesting background information about the origins of the South Yorkshire carols in particular ones not well known in other parts, it would be a useful addition to the Forum Database.
Geoff!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 03:56 PM

Hmmm I have heard of the fabled carols. McFat mentioned them a while back perhaps he will have some info.
stirrings event diary has a contact number for the Royal at Dungworth

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Sonnet
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 04:50 PM

Geoff: You might be interested to know about this book.

The Joy of Christmas: Words and Music of Traditional & Local Carols. Compiled and Presented by Worrall Male Voice Choir. (published 1982, but name of publisher not given.

Containing 90 pages of local carols, both words and music, it is one of the most comprehensive collections that I have come across. My favourite in the collection is The Mistletoe Bough. I have no idea how we came by the book, but Chris recalls we had it from new.

Janet McS.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:21 PM

Unfortunately, this is something about which I don't have up-to-date details; I haven't got round to doing the research yet, for which I should apologise; there hasn't been time just yet.  For information about carol-singing at the Beehive in Harthill, you should contact  Norman Anderson

Ian Russell (of Village Carols) is the expert on the South Yorkshire/North Derbyshire carol tradition; unfortunately, since he moved up to Scotland to work at the Elphinstone Institute, he hasn't had time to maintain his website.  As soon as I can get more current information, I'll post it here.  Meanwhile, if anyone has useful info, please post it in this thread.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 04:24 AM

Dear All, the South Yorkshire Carols usually start the first Sunday after Armistace Day (which is the 11th November) so I reckon they start on 18th November. I've only really been to the Royal at Dungworth which is near Stannington in Sheffield. they run every Sunday till Christmas they sometime do one on Boxing Day even if it's not a Sunday (which was quieter last year). You have got to try and get there before 12 noon (the pub opens at 12 noon) as it gets very very busy for the first two hours. There are also sessions at the Blue Ball at Worrall in North Sheffield, somewhere in Grenoside and a handfull of other places. The 'man' for all the info is Ian Russell but Malcolm Douglas will probably provide the details of bits I've missed. Can I say that it's one of the most 'spiritual' things I've ever been to and that says a lot coming from an Atheiest

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 01:09 PM

Does anyone know Geoff Thompson, a wonderful singer from the Sheffield area? While he and his wife were in the States a few years ago, he came up to The Press Room several times, but we've lost touch and I don't have his UK address or e-mail. Tell him Linn Schulz & Tom Hall were asking about him . . .

Thanks!

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: selby
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 01:34 PM

Geoff If we can't locate them how about doing our own somwhere. Keith

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 01:48 PM

If anyone would like to PM me (esp you Geoff) I will supply details. Sorry not to post & realise I may seem churlish but I've been going for years and the whole thing is getting over-subscribed to the extent of killing the spirit of the event, so I wouldn't like to add to that. Each year I see people arrive, open the door and depart without setting foot inside. Hail!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 01:57 PM

PS just finished reading thread (mea culpa) Bat goddess, I know Geoff and will send your greetings on the grapevine. Last year Grenoside was Fridays, but the pub has changed hands so situation this year not known. Oughtibridge Saturday nights, Ecclesfield Thursdays, I believe. Also see my previous message. If you can't get, buy 'Hark, Hark' from Village Carols, and several pints. Beware, they're addictive. By the way, the true aficianados (sp?) had their Harvest sing last month.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 09:54 PM

Ian Russell's Village Carols site is here:  Village Carols,  though as I said it's not been maintained in some time.

Wyrd Sister makes a very good point; this is a living, local tradition and it is important not to tread on peoples' toes and spoil it for those to whom it principally belongs.  If you do want to go, it's probably best to do so early in the season, and if possible speak beforehand to someone who knows the place, so as to be reasonably sure that you won't be crowding the locals, and have an idea of the way things are done.

I've been a bit torn about compiling a local listing; it's an important tradition and should be recognised, but "folk-tourism" is an ever-present danger.  I don't usually go myself, so I'd have to talk to quite a few people first to be sure that their views on it were properly taken into account.  There may not be time this year, but I will try to sort out something sensible if I can.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: JulieF
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 06:40 AM

I do know that there is a big concert of local carols planned for the Cathedral as several people I know have been involved in the rehersals. Don't know any more than that. I will see some people tomorrow night who will be able to enlighten me.

All the best

Julie

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: GUEST,bradfordian
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 09:03 AM

Excellant tape of South Yorks Carols from here (http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/bmvc/discs.html )priced £5.20 inc p+p. This is Bolsterstone Male Voice Choir of 1988. It provides the songs but obviously is given the male voice choir treatment. Hope this helps. Cheers Bradfordian

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: GUEST,bradfordian
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 09:08 AM

Whoops! Excellant tape of South Yorks Carols from here (http://www.shef.ac.uk/misc/rec/bmvc/discs.html )priced £5.20 inc p+p. This is Bolsterstone Male Voice Choir of 1988. It provides the songs but obviously is given the male voice choir treatment. Hope this helps. Cheers Bradfordian

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: brid widder
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 01:57 PM

I made it to the Blue Ball at Worral a few years back...also Dungworth once and to the 'Festival of Village Carols' at Grenoside...as MCFat says it is a very moving experience...I would say that the singers all tended to give the carols a bit of the 'male voice choir treatment'... predominently strong, trained male voices...apparently in the past women who dared to join in were called 'pudding burners'!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 04:20 PM

'Festival of carols' - these have been held on alternate years, organised by Ian Russell, and are an excellent method of experiencing the tunes, spirit and some of the atmosphere of the 'real' thing, without the 'folk tourism' Malcolm mentions. There isn't one this year, which is good news for you all as it would have been sold out by now if there had been one! Don't actually know if there's one next year but I would suggest it's highly likely. Look out for details around Whitby Folk Week, and I'll post here as soon as I know. One year booking forms appeared at the Harvest sing, so don't expect anything too soon.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: JulieF
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 08:14 AM

Carol Concert at the Cathedral Tuesday 18th December performed by a folk chorus of local all stars. I assume that they will be mainly local ones

Julie

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Ringer
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 09:23 AM

Shameless advert:

I understand the Cathedral concert will be just that - a concert. For my money, carols are a participatory sport. So if anyone fancies a knees-up that night instead of just listening to the Pratt's Choir, come along to Spire folk-dance club, meets at the Hollingwood Hotel, Private Drive, Brimington nr Chesterfield at 8.00pm. Last meeting of the year is something of a party. You'll be made most welcome.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 11:00 AM

There was an excellent CD (English Village Carols SFWCD 40476) issued by Smithsonian Folkways last year of selections from Ian Russell's recordings, and including an informative booklet by Ian Russell himself. Details can be found on the SI site at English Village Carols SFWCD40476 which also gives Real Audio soundclips. It can be purchased in the UK from John Howson's Veteran Mail Order at Veteran Mail Order where it can be found in the English Catalogue (wrongly numbered as SFWCD 40473).
NB I had difficulty getting directly into the SI site, so if the link to it above doesn't work, try a search on Google for "Smithsonian Institute Folkways".

Incidentally I would have to agree with WyrdSister and Malcolm on respecting the integrity of this local tradition, and avoiding what Malcolm calls "folk tourism", and so it seems right not to publish details here, but just exchange them privately for real afficionadoes such as Geoff.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 11:19 AM

Damn! The Smithsonian link worked OK in previous message, but not Veteran. (Typed a slash instead of a dot - must learn to master "Copy" & "Paste"!) Anyway here is the link to Veteran (I hope):Veteran Mail Order Well worth bookmarking for future reference.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: GUEST,French guess
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 03:48 PM

Dear Bald Eagle

I think I would enjoy going there... When is that terrific party?

A bientôt

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 05:46 PM

I have been too busy to get to the computer for a few days, so thanks for the responses I have missed inbetween.
I would not call myself an afficionado of anything these days, especially since the twins arrived, I seldom manage to get to anything. That was why I fancied getting to one of the South Yorks Carol sessions.
Although I understand the concern of individuals about folk tourism I am not convinced that many people are that interested in tracking down obscure traditions. I know archivists and scholars who worh to make acurate recors of events, but their agenda is a different one. People I know who go to join in with the South Yorkshire Carols do not live in the villages concerned. Are they Folk Tourists, or just people who love singing?
I have just been doing some searches and came up with a couple of links not already listed:-
The Joy Of Christmas, Midi and words from the South Yorks Carols and a review of a recording from the South Yorks Carols
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 06:01 PM

Good for you Geoff. I think that, all things considered , yours is the right attitude. It is all about sharing the pleasure in music that is important, and I expect you will be made welcome at one or more of these events.
Now, can you get an export licence to sing some of them in Manchester?

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: JulieF
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 04:01 AM

That was a trifle unfair - Bald Eagle. Most of the people who are singing at the cathedral will also be in the pubs around our end of Sheffield and have been for years. If the cathedral concert gives an introduction to the music then fair enough and I can't see why you can't do both.

Being a foreigner - I withdraw from any comments about carols participation in pubs and otherwise and especially what should or should not be sung.

Enjoy the season

All the best Julie

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 11:01 AM

I'm sure we can sing few South Yorkshire carols over the border - afterall we are West Yorkshire here and could sneak them out without anyone seeing!! Particularly looking forward to a rendering of Hail Smiling Morn - would have sounded fantastic at the institute in Llanfair!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 02:17 PM

Good link, Geoff. Any aspiring visitors please be prepared to miss out vv 4&5 of 'Shepherds', depending on venue! Also idiosyncratic twiddly bits depending etc. etc. Also the 'to the earth be peace' from the 'on the earth be peace'...But above all, enjoy!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 02:37 PM

Definition of 'local'. Hmm. I live within walking distance (well, hiking distance) but am not really a local. What I AM is a regular. And the regulars do come from far and wide. And some only come once or twice a year. And some less than that. It's a bit like Whitby week - you meet up with people you may not see anywhere else, but it's like greeting old friends. No, it IS greeting old friends. And anyone is welcome who is willing to listen to what they are singing, rather than assuming they know. That's how I feel, anyway! Can't wait for Sunday!!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 02:38 PM

Mrs Duck - I've been listening to Ian Russell's cassette of the carols at the Fountain,Ingbirchworth. Is that South or West Yorks?

Kitty

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 11:19 AM

South Yorkshire, Kitty Ingbirchworth map
Fingers crossed that link works!!
All ready for carol season now
Welsh shepherds watched their flocks by night
Lest Eric was around....

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 01:40 PM

Herga Kitty - There is no such place as South Yorkshire. Yorkshire consists of THREE RIDINGS derived from the ancient Norse word THRID - to divide into three.
South Riding was a work of fiction set in a nonexistant part of Yorkshire.
The Independent Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire was in large part a description of the coal mining communities who tried to stand up to Margaret Thatcher when the Tory Party set out to destroy any part of the country which traditionally voted for Labour MPs.
South Yorkshire is an administrative area based around Sheffield set up as part of the Gerrymandering involved in so-called Local Government Reorganisations. South Yorkshire is part of the West Riding. The West Riding was administered from Wakefield, but the reorganisations removed all the administrative functions of the Ridings replacing them with Metropolitan Councils named after Hollywood B-Movie Actors (Brad Ford, Kirk Lees, Calder Dale, Barnes Lee, Don Caster - remember him as Third Cowboy propped at the bar in High Noon!) plus the Heavy Woollen District.
I am not certain if any parts of South Yorkshire fall into the East Riding, but Ingbirchworth is both South Yorkshire AND West Riding.
I hope that you find the explanation as clear as mud!
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 02:43 PM

Geoff, it breaks my heart to have to amend your information. The South Riding is, of course, the area covered by the South Riding Folk Network, which has its own website. In a spirit of increasing exercise, I won't put a link but let each set of flying fingers find it independently!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 13 Nov 01 - 02:53 PM

Clear as mud it is - just wondered why the thread is called South Yorkshire carols...

Kitty

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 04:45 AM

Gleetings flom the Peopres Lepubric of South Yolkshile.Just been in touch with Royal at Dungwoth and carols do indeed start on Sunday 18th. Landlord says food will be available from 2.45 onwards. Hail smiling morn !!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 05:31 PM

And Little Duckling has announced final practice for concert will take place between one and two on Sunday effectively wrecking any chance of us getting to the carols this weekend - bugger!!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 05:51 PM

GtD I'm still chuckling over your Cowboy Councils. I believe that South/West confusion is simply a ploy to get humble Lancastrians hopelessly lost when they visit Yorkshire. It works as well!
Mrs Duck - have you considered roasting the duckling for Sunday dinner?
NB Why are we all staying at York house for the Stony Stratford Gathering? Is this another example of the World Domination Plan?

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 06:18 PM

Matthew -
Yes
No
Yes
GtD!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 14 Nov 01 - 07:26 PM

Right you are GtD. I think I've understood that! BTW Of course I didn't mean to offend whichever Duckling it is who has buggered up your plans, and as penance I'll try to think of a little song for him/her when we next meet. Best wishes to Little Duckling with the concert

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 11:21 AM

So how was it for you?

New canine intervention (can't blame Blue, she's usually shut up in the car, only this year it broke down and she had to get a lift in from Moscar - she still needs more practice), Sue made it to the door before the end of "For she's a jolly good fellow" (empty pub), only two repeats of Mount Moriah, (which is only correct for this early in the year) and "The Holly and the Ivy" came in at 2 mins 19 seconds. Hmm, room for improvement there then! Other than that, all the usual suspects. Dungworth alive and well! Also heard that Blue Ball at Worrall going ahead, and Stannington, both Sunday lunchtimes.

"They shall run. and not be weary,..."

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 08:02 AM

Dungworth was as usual double-bloody-fantastic. can't wait to go again. Jenny Bellamy showed us some cards produced by Haddenhm Fair (?) they show the main people and the organist singing in a sort of characture style and big emblazoned words of 'Hail Smiling Morn' She hopes to bring some up to sell soon.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 01:27 PM

Should be able to make it this Sunday. Is there anything at the Fountain this week?

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 01:34 PM

The cards are by Karen Cater of Hedingham Fair. Put the name in google and you'll find examples of her work.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Ringer
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 12:27 PM

I don't really imagine that my "shameless advert" above would have drawn any punters, but I regret that the Folk Dancing event is cancelled. We have the use of the pub's upstairs room on the basis of "It's free, but a paying booking gets priority", and a booking is paying, so we're out. So, if you were thinking of coming, thanks, but don't bother. Next meeting is Jan 15th 2002.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 14 Dec 01 - 08:16 PM

We found some of the singing on the weekend that the Mudcat was offline (US Thanksgiving). Mrs.Duck and myself set out, then discovered that our roadmap did not admit that Dungworth existed. We tried Ingbirchworth - The singing at the Fountain starts two Sundays before Christmas (This weekend coming - by the way!). The carols also happen there (if we have got our information correct) on Boxing Day and New Years Day.
We then headed in the general direction of Sheffield looking for roadsigns to Dungworth. No Luck, so we backtracked to Worrall and spotted a lot of cars parked in the vicinity of a pub - the Blue Ball. I got out to investigate, and singing started. We wandered in and found carols with organ accompaniment. I was down with a cold and sore throat, but we sat in a corner and somebody positioned their copy of the words so that Jane could read them.
The gathering at Worrall seemed to be mainly locals. The room was fairly full, and we were still in November, so one would expect it to become considerably more crowded as December arrives.
The singing finished at 2.00pm. As we had travelled far, we asked the pub landlord directions to Dungworth and he obliged. We trekked down there to see people leaving the Royal. We went into the pub to find a load of faces we knew - Folkies and Morris types.
We hope to get to Dungworth for this Sundays' session. We intend to travel via Worrall, where members of the Male Voice Choir are going to be at the Shoulder of Mutton around Midday. Their choirmaster has copies of their set of words for sale - the Joy of Christmas (the Blue-Book mentioned in earlier postings). At Manchester, MC-FAT had copies of the other (red) book of words, which he had bought for his own use, but other people Mugged him for them.
Quack!!!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 15 Dec 01 - 11:39 AM

And Mouldy sent us one of the Christmas cards mentionned above - must get onto that website.

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 11:20 AM

Just noticed this before I threw the paper away. may take a while to load, its a 200k jpeg. Some familiar faces in there, is that Mudcats very own Whippet in the crowd?
Sheffield Telegraph

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 12:08 PM

Spotted MCFat but then he's not hard to miss!!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 12:10 PM

I mean he's not easy to miss although it's true he isn't hard to miss 'cos you can see him coming and run away quickly!

Subject: RE: Help: South Yorkshire Carols
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 29 Dec 01 - 12:26 PM

"you can see him coming and run away quickly!"

Think I will leave this one To Spaw