BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:44 PM

'Scotch-Irish'

That would be Scottish-Irish. Scotch is a drink.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:00 PM

SRS--

I think we're all aware of that. I was just quoting JTT--in the interests of accuracy. It will be interesting to see if he can come up with evidence to back up his contention.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:01 PM

I was directing that at JTT also. Not you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:01 PM

No JTT is right, it's Scotch-Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:03 PM

That's the term. But let's ask the Scots what they think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:24 PM

Scotch-Irish is not a term that has its origin in Scotland or Ireland, and it really doesn't matter what the Scots think about it, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: GUEST,Q, as Guest
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 12:21 AM

Without a valid reference to a study published in a reputable sociological journal, JTT's remark is personal speculation only.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:29 AM

"It doesn't matter..."--- that's your opinion. But we're getting off track. I'd still like to see the evidence JTT must have.

What I think is fascinating is Q's information about Western Canada. The KKK was evidently strong there in the 30's--but the targets weren't blacks. Supports my earlier observation that race is just one of the elements in the mix--albeit a very potent one.   The crucial element is perceived competition for scarce resources--including jobs or land.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:39 PM

"...Western Canada. The KKK was evidently strong there in the 30's--but the targets weren't blacks."


               Ron,

            Who were the targets, if not blacks?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:49 PM

Well, the KKK have never been too keen on Catholics or Jews or Native Americans either, and that's just for a start.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: GUEST,DooSay
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:17 PM

I grew up in the segregated south. So my comments are based on my personal experience rather than research or someone's written interpretation.
Most of the poor people I knew (black or white) were what some might consider working class poor and being so meant that most of their time was consumed in their efforts to survive and provide for their families.
I suppose the theory that the poor need to look down on someone in order to make themselves feel better/superior may hold some truth but I don't believe it would be accurate as a "blanket statement". I've witnessed poor people, regardless of race, being far more willing to help each other in times of need and/or crisis. I've also found that the most giving people are often the people who have the least to give.
If you think slavery and racism were restricted to the south, it might serve you well to look a bit farther. I've witnessed racism in various other parts of the USA, often equal and sometimes even more intense than what I've seen in the south but I'm convinced that the worse part of racism and slavery in our history was the institutionalized variety by those who claim to be so opposed to it.

If you want to classify someone by their wealth or lack of, there will always be someone wealthier or poorer than you. If it's your objective to classify someone by their color, you'll always find someone a bit darker or even lighter than yourself. What I find interesting is the people who say it shouldn't make any difference seem to be the people who mention these differences the most (couldn't be that it's what they notice most.... could it?).

Ever lived in a home with no electricity or running water? Ever worked in the fields from sun up til sundown? Ever been criticized for wearing clothes that were not fashionable or they were even "handmade"? Ever live in a community/neighborhood that was predominantly white, predominantly black, predominantly hispanic, etc. while being the minority? Ever been shot at for speaking your mind?

There are some lessons and experiences in life that can't be put into words. Doesn't mean we shouldn't make the effort but until you've lived an experience it can be difficult to fully understand.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:31 PM

Oh geeze, Alan...

Wish I'd been here this week to get into this but I've been down (up) in the mountains of Western North Carolina all week but drove back today thru the mountains north of Wilksboro an' there are one heck of a lot of poor white folks living in some of the areas we drove thru... But, hey, there are one heck of a lot of poor people (black and white) in the South...

Ummmmmmm, my only advice is don't go into this area in the class you are teaching without reading Janies entire thread on "Poverty"... I mean, read every last word...

Yeah, this goes way beyond the Greensboro ambush... Way beyond... Greensboro wasn't as much poor white folks gunning down balck folks, it was about stupid/ignorant white folks gunning down black folks... Please don't use these racists as part of your disussion about poverty in the South... It's nuthin' more than a sideshow... Horrid, yes... Explaination of poverty in the South, no...

I'm not too sure when you need to have yer presentation but I'd say that that you might be over yer head here, ol' Buddy... This ain't an easy story to tell... It ain't all about Greensboro... It ain't all about the War for Southern Independence... It ain't all about the way the colonies were developed... It ain't all about resources and who settled where and when... It ain't all about slavery... It ain't all about the "Southern way"... It ain't all about 14-b of the Taft-Hartley Acy...

It's about all of these!!!

I mean, it just can't be boiled own into a simply explained story...

I think I have as good an understanding as anyone but I wouldn't attempt to explain poverty in the South (black or white) in any forum that wasn't an entire semester 3 credit college course... Anything less is like the dog that won't hunt...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:03 AM

Rig--

Just read Q's post of 23 Oct 2007 2:28 PM. The KKK had other targets in Western Canada in the 1930's. Reason? There probably weren't many blacks there at the time. If there had been, the KKK would have inveighed against them too, rest assured. But according to the post, the targets were the "foreign-born"--read: anybody different from the KKK members themselves--especially competitors for jobs or the (scarce?) arable land.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:22 AM

There are some lessons and experiences in life that can't be put into words. Doesn't mean we shouldn't make the effort but until you've lived an experience it can be difficult to fully understand- Guest DooDay.


GUEST,DooSay, thank you for your post. Fwiw, I agree with everything you've said so well.

Also, fwiw, at various times in my life, I've gone to school, worked, and "lived for in a community/neighborhood that was predominantly white...while being the minority". I'm also in the minority here-racially anyway. I don't say any of this with pride. I'm just stating a fact.

As a result of reading threads in the three years that I've been posting on Mudcat, I've learned that there are some Mudcatters who have "live[d] in a community/neighborhood that was predominantly ...black...while being the minority."

I've never been shot at for speaking my mind. I'm not sure if they ever were. But given some Mudcatters' involvement in the 1960s Civil Rights movement, that's very possible.

Does this mean that they or I have a better understanding of the race & racism in the United States than other folks who haven't experienced being in the minority with regard to race/ethnicity?

Perhaps. And then again, perhaps not. But, like you, some of our "comments are based on [our] personal experience[/s] rather than research or someone's written interpretation".

**

Btw, GUEST,DooSay, if you are indeed a guest on Mudcat, I hope you continue posting here, and will join this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:12 PM

Ron Davies, the KKK targets in Western Canada were non-UK and Ireland (non-English speakers), at the time many coming from Eastern Europe, and the Unions plus Communists.

A quarter section of land was available to anyone who would promise to clear and farm 40 acres within a specified time. The lands were arable and plentiful, but had to be cleared of bush. Many of the takers were from eastern Europe and brought in free on the railroads.

At the same time, non-UK miners were being brought into the work force and organizers were trying to unionize the miners. Resentment against the settlers, and against union organizers and those who joined the unions created unrest which the KKK and business leaders united to suppress.
Blacks were essentially absent from the Canadian west (coastal B. C. was a different story) with the exception of one very small colony in Alberta and a few individuals in ranching.

The situation with regard to the mines was more complex in the U. S. Rockies, as WYSIWYG pointed out; union and communist organizers were stronger and violent struggles took place. I am not familiar enough with the problems there to comment.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:43 PM

Q--

Great information, thanks.

"...promise to clear and farm 40 acres..."--what years are we talking about? Also, were there Indians around in the area, and, if so, what was the government's position on them?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:13 PM

All digression-
Indians already on the rez; not involved in the homestead lands. This period of unrest and KKK was 1930-1939 (Alberta Homestead lands were opened 1905, and some were taken up as late as 1950s by veterans under an act of 1942). At this time payment was required but it was term and very low.
The railroads and government brought in a large number of Ukrainians in the 1920s and 1930s to homestead but the first Ukrainians and Poles came about 1900, some in groups. The region around Edmonton and north and east was often called "Little Ukraine" and is noted for its onion dome Orthodox churches.

The first colony of Blacks in Alberta came about 1916, mostly from Tulsa, OK area, and settled at Amber Valley-Pine Valley, Alberta. A few have remained and there is a small museum. A few individuals came, perhaps the best known is a cowboy, later rancher, John Ware.
Since 1950, Jamaicans, Africans, etc. have come to the cities, no organized opposition, and have integrated well.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:46 PM

So that's the contrast with the US. Homestead Act in the US 1862, as I recall. Therefore big conflict with Indians on those lands--or wanting to hunt or graze on them--guaranteed. Canadian homesteading much later, it appears.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 09:16 AM

Last summer I visited the museum at Biggar, Saskatchewan, which has a display and collection of newspaper clippings and other documents relating to the KKK in Saskatchewan. The main KKK agitator married the daughter of a leading Biggar merchant and for a decade or so the KKK played a significant role in backroom politics in the province. The agitator was a disaffected Catholic seminarian who vented his spleen against Catholics in general and Francophones in particular. A colony of French from France had settled in southern Saskatchewan during the homesteading era and, as they were determined to retain their culture, they attracted their neighbours' scorn. The members of the folk band Hart Rouge are descended from those French homesteaders.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 02:31 PM

Bob, I think most KKK organizers in Canada knew little about the American South. The same seems to be true of KKK throughout the West. Unions, and foreigners of all stripes and colors were the targets.
Alberta also received a few colonies from France (20th c.); little in common with the Quebec and Metis settlers. Even a few Icelanders; one, a poet, is still quoted occasionally.

Not mentioned here yet are the 'poor whites' who moved west- there were some, but they ended up on the west coast since there was nothing for them in between and they were not acceptable to westerners.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 08:08 PM

Q, while we're clarifying things, wasn't the KKK in the early twentieth century actually begun by a salesman from Ohio looking to make some bucks off dues?

---

Post is from Patty Clink, I think. -Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 08:53 PM

The 20th c. KKK across the United States was a fraternal organization, but dunno who started it. I remember it had about 5 million members. Don't know any details. I remember people being surprised when going through family papers and finding a father's or grandfather's membership card- but if he was an independent business man or farmer, chances were good that he had been a member. The group seems to have died a death from general uselessness.

I have also heard that the KKK in the South during the 20th c. mostly was more informal, the headquarters in a small town being a local barber shop or pool hall. Several groups with leaders, mostly self-proclaimed.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Poor Whites' in the Southern States
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 09:06 PM

There were a number of Klans in the US (and still are a few), with very similar "philosophies", but there was never a KKK. There may well have been a group founded by a salesman from or in Ohio. ...the headquarters in a small town being a local barber shop or pool hall sounds about right - the Klan office in Tucker, GA (a suburb of Atlanta) in the late 1970s was upstairs over a laundry. Convenient, eh?