Dick Miles jazz singer

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 03:21 PM

Bryan Creer - short, fat and hairy!

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 04:15 PM

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 05:36 PM

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 10:12 AM

Iam not laying down the law,
I am telling you what I am prepared to pay for at a folkclub or Festival,and that if you book, JohnLennon/BritneySpears impersonators.I will not be there.
If I happen to be booked at a folk club I would not stop anyone singing anything.IF I heard someone sing a Beatles song I would clap politely,If they asked my opinion on their performance,and they had performed it well,I would say so,
If they asked my opinion on their material.I would suggest tactfully investigating traditional material[simply because there is such a wealth of good songs amongst it].that is very different from stopping people singing songs,this is indeed Ironic to be thus accused ,because it is the very reason I never went to the Singers Club ,
I have a book entitled the Sailors Dream,self penned modern songs available from my website. http://www.dickmiles .com
Andy Caven is pretty busy[last I heard],plenty of gigs,I doubt if he has the time to do a floor spot at Lewes,I think he lives in the midlands[bit far really?]

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 06:04 PM

What the £@%$&*%£$ has Andy Caven got to do with this discussion?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 07:00 PM

being pursued by a belligerent Snail, is rather like being savaged by a dead sheep.
Andy Caven performs Buddy Holly material.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 07:25 PM

Captain Birdseye

being pursued by a belligerent Snail, is rather like being savaged by a dead sheep.

You started this thread Dick. Just asking simple questions. Can't understand why you won't answer them.

Andy Caven performs Buddy Holly material.

So?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 04:47 AM

Subject: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:51 PM

here is my jazz cyberspace version,of John Cages 4 minutes 33.
you are off topic, Snail.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 06:34 AM

From your second post to this thread Captain -

However if John Lennon can be described as a folksinger,then I can decribe myself quite inaccurately as a Jazz singer.
when I go to a jazz club I expect to hear Jazz,not Dick Miles singing Tam Linn,or Paul Maccartney singing Yesterday,or Sharon Shannon.
when I go to a Folk Festival, I do not expect to hear Westlife.

which sows the seeds of what we are talking about.

Why are you so reluctant to answer simple questions?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 06:41 AM

I tell you what,I would be happy to discuss the matter over a pint somewhere,but not here and now.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:16 AM

It's a long, long way from Cork to here.

Why raise subjects you don't want to discuss?

Enough!

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 08:16 AM

what I am prepared to discuss,if you provide the 1954 definition is how it can be applied to modern songs such as John Lennons,with the proviso that the 1954 definition[has flaws and is not perfect]but is the best definition that is not subjective.
This is Different from, What I expect to see,when I go to a Folkclub as a paying visitor[because thats my subjective feeling],which does not have to be logical but can be emotional.
An example of illogicality, but emotional gut feeling,is the use of Traditional music for toothpaste adverts.It could be argued that getting traditional music to people who have never heard it before must be agood thing,.
but in my opinion using it as an advert for toothpaste demeans it.
logically this argument can be defeated,but it still doesnt alter how I feel[subjective emotional],in the same way turning up to pay to see someone at a folk club is subjective[emotional],not necessarily logical.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 08:55 AM

Oh Dick, I can't keep quoting your own post back at you. Go and read them for yourself. You made authorative statements about what is or is not folk music, about what should be played in folk clubs and what audiences (not just you) expect to hear.

if you provide the 1954 definition

You invoked it not me. It seems that it is only freely available to academics not the hoi-paloi -
Definition of Folk Music - Maud Karpeles

My question is, how does it apply differently to songs by John Lennon from how it applies to songs by, for instance, you.

Toothpaste?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:03 AM

Subject: Isthe1954defining,improvable
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:51 AM

Definition of Folk Music ,decided by the International Folk Music Council in 1954.
Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.
The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.
The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."
Is this definition open to improvement,and do you have any suggestions as to how it can be improved.Dick Miles
Snail,voici, mon escargot.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:17 AM

Is this, then, the only music that can be performed in Folk Clubs?

Quoting myself -

My question is, how does it apply differently to songs by John Lennon from how it applies to songs by, for instance, you.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: GUEST,Darowyn
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:27 AM

I would simply remove the last sentence.
"The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."
A lot of songs enirely suitable for performance in Folk Clubs have been written since 1954, and they work just as well whether performed in a 'Stars in Their Eyes', 'tonight I'm going to be Ewan McColl', style or thoroughly folk processed , usually by failing memory inmy case, into new style. Removing the last sentence would remove the cause for the preceeding argument.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:32 AM

Is this, then, the only music that can be performed in Folk Clubs?that is for fok club organisers[like yourself] to decide,
and you do this through your booking policy,and also through your choice of residents[,youchoose your residents upon the material they sing and how they perform it]
Acoustic music clubs are different again,so are Jazz clubs.
I will respond later to your second question,as I have to dash.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:41 PM

Is this, then, the only music that can be performed in Folk Clubs?that is for fok club organisers[like yourself] to decide,
and you do this through your booking policy,and also through your choice of residents[,youchoose your residents upon the material they sing and how they perform it]

I could quibble over the details of that but one thing I'm damn sure of, we never ask ourselves or our guests, "Does this material conform to the 1954 Sao Paulo International Folk Music Council definition of folk music?". We may not know much about folk music but we know what we like.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Rowan
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 11:32 PM

Definition of Folk Music ,decided by the International Folk Music Council in 1954.
Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.

I'm a bit wary of getting caught in the crossfire here and Mudcat is littered with uncountable (and often unprofitable) threads and comments on this topic. But the 1954 definition is succinct and relatively objective (groan!) so a couple of swift bits addressing it might be worthwhile.

The first part of the definition (in italics above) seem to excite no particular dissension in most discussions, although there are comments about media which do. Leaving them aside;

The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

Notions of "rudimentary" that might have been acceptable in 1954 are unlikely to be so regarded now that most cultures have demonstrated that none of them is correctly describable as "rudimentary" or primitive. Nobody can securely describe "beginnings" where authorship is unknown and no author is likely to accept description of them as "rudimentary". Given the progression of literacy in most communities (especially those communicating in various forms of English) I suspect it would be increasingly difficult to find examples of living traditions that remain unwritten. They might be more frequent in communities with less reliance on English in its various forms but anthropologists and ethnographers are working to minimise even these by writing them down and recording them.

The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."

This para seems to be the one that most exercises Mudcatters and (to me) appear to be at the root of the 'back & forth' between our two protagonists. None of the critical terms in this para ("popular", "community", "re-fashioning", "re-creation", "folk" or "character") has an objective definition that is widely accepted even in Mudcat, let alone elsewhere. These days, its inclusion creates more heat than light and I seem to recall various stories about the 1954 conference participants that suggest it created more heat than light even then.

Deleting it is no worthy answer and I can't think of anything to modify it that is not similarly subjective; I'd reckon nobody else could either. Like almost any classification system I've ever come across in various disciplines, the form of the classification is largely determined by its function. Many of us have such widely divergent functions for putative classifications that no one system will be acceptable for most, let alone all.

C'est la vie! Vive la difference!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 04:30 AM

We may not know much about folk music but we know what we like.Quote Snail.
Exactly
And as I said before I have never stopped anyone singing anything in a folk club.
we know what we like,I know what I like,and what I want to hear in a folkclub.
and that determines who I go to see at a folk club,I pays my money. I choose.
I do not choose to go and see any one singing John Lennon songs,nor would I choose to see Pavarotti,Westlife,Britney Spears,.
That is my choice BECAUSE I would not enjoy myself.
Folk Festival /club organisers determine who is booked and who is not.,
this may or may not take into account audience requests,depends on the organiser[I have never been booked at a certain club despite various people requesting me]Thats life.
By no stroke of the imagination could I be described as a Jazz Or a Rap performer,or an Opera Singer.and in my opinion[SUBJECTIVE]John Lennon is not a Folksinger,but a rock singer, and I would not pay money to see him[Ifhe were alive] or an impersonator, in a folk club.
40 years ago,maybe,but these days,other people excite me more.
now I am off to play some music[not rock].Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 05:07 AM

Dick, you seem to be in denial about the things you said earlier in this thread and there's no point in reminding you again. You don't seem to have taken in much of what I've said either.

It's a pity that we (or you for that matter) won't be able to sing any of your songs in folk clubs because they aren't folk songs.

Good post Rowan.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 06:50 AM

It's a pity that we (or you for that matter) won't be able to sing any of your songs in folk clubs because they aren't folk songs.
   The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.
I know for a fact Battle of Bosworth Field has been changed.
2.my music is not normally classified as Popular,although some people in Folk clubs might like it[that does not mean it is popular music].
you can sing what you like ,but dont expect me to pay to see it,
although I suspect that if your repertoire is similiar to the guests you have booked ,I wouldnt have a problem.
by the way it is a fair while since I have been booked at your club.
I also do Concertina workshops[song accompaniment,ornamentation]must be 10 years since I have been booked at Lewes.[Faint heart never won fair lady].Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 09:03 PM

my music is not normally classified as Popular

That makes it folk music?

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: SussexCarole
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 09:47 PM

I think I've lost the will to live after trying to follow this thread! So here's my support to the clubs & singers (especially the Lewes Arms) who share the music I enjoy. Folk/jazz/whatever music would be suffocated and die if purists have their way! Just sing as & what you will, enjoy what you do and stuff the people who insist on putting labels on who we are & what we sing.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 08:47 AM

Just sing as & what you will, enjoy what you do and stuff the people who insist on putting labels on who we are & what we sing.
Thanks Carole.
I do enjoy what I do,and I never attempt to stop anyone else singing what they want.
I reserve the right to decide what I will pay for at a Folk Festival/ club.
and I would not be prepared to listen to a whole evening of John Lennon songs at a Folk club.
Nor would I pay to see Westlife at Ronnie Scotts JAZZ CLUB.
Its a question of degree,And thereare always grey areas with labelling,
CarterFamily, Jimmie Rodgers,are they country are they folk,probably both[but maybe to someone else they are one or the other]
Iwould find acceptable at afolk club,
Britney Spears no.
I do not expect a rap singer if Ihave paid to go to a classical concert.we cant escape the necessity for some labelling.
if you dont like labelling stop calling Folk clubs Folk clubs call them Acoustic Miusic clubs.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM

my music is not normally classified as Popular

That makes it folk music?,the material I sing is generally considered by most as folk music because:
95 PERCENT of the songs are classified as Traditional.[and fall within the 1954 definition]
when I do a gig ,there are a small proportion,perhaps two songs that may occupy a grey area as regards classification,that if I think are appropriate I might include.
That is different from doing a whole evening of my own songs,.
I consider that the material I do best is traditional material.
if someone requests a self penned song, I might do it.
but you cant escape labels,the label Martin Carthy means something,as does the label Cleo Laine,neither one is really an acceptable substitute for the other[although they are both [imo]very good],should one be not available through illness to do a gig.
if Ihave bought a ticket to see Pavarotti it is not unreasonable for me to ask for my money back if the organiser has substituted Westlife or Britney Spears.
I am not concerned about what anyone else does in a folk club,but if I dont think it is folkmusic [subjective] I will not go.
I dont think JohnLennon is a folk singer and I wouldnt cross the road to see him [subjective opinion]
I am not a Jazz Singer I do not sing Jazz material neither do I sing in a JAZZ STYLE .iDO BELIEVE
when I am employed to perform at a folk club. I try and listen to every singer regardless of their material,for many different reasons

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 11:33 AM

missing line, should read I do believe I am a FolkSinger.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 09:35 PM

Oh dear, I really can't be bothered.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 06:13 AM

Sussex Carole.
Lewes has two folk clubs both of which are successful,which would indicate that Folkclubs when run efficiently, will be well supported [,both of their music programmes are what most people expect at folk clubs] . Pavarotti,Westlife. BritneySpears ,John Lennon impersonators are absent.
however it is impossible to avoid labels altogether.
here are another few examples.Cotswold morris side,youwould expect to do Cotswold Morris not american line dancing ,or Rapper.
now If I turned up and they were doing Rapper,I probably wouldnt have minded because I like both,but I do not like American Line dancing,so in those circumstances Iwould be pissed off.
the problem is that despite everything[the 1954 definition etc] how we define Folk music involves a considerable amount of subjectivity.
that is why I dont feel I can answer your question Snail.Iknow what I think is folk music ,but I cant define it.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 07:14 AM

Pavarotti,Westlife. BritneySpears ,John Lennon impersonators are absent.

So are Dick Miles impersonators, which, under tha Captains's definition, is anyone who sings a Dick Miles song.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 08 - 02:02 PM

Everybody is very welcome to sing my songs.
I keep making it quite clear that I would never stop anyone from singing a song.[my own included].
Legally,PRS forms should be filled in either by the organisers or the performer when performing other peoples material,be it.[I am sure Lewes folk club is aware of this] Lennon/Maccartney or Dick Miles.
personally, I am only concerned about being given credit for the songs I have written.
when I refer to impersonators, Iam talking about tribute performers /bands.
as I havent died and am still performing,Ithink it doubtful if there are any.
there are plenty of Beatles/Elvis tribute bands,I would not turn up to see them at a folk club,nor would I turn up to see someone singing an evening of John Lennon songs.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:16 AM

Dick, I see that you say you have said that you have sung Ewan MacColl's "Sweet Thames". We don't book Ewan MacColl impersonators. I wouldn't want to listen to a Ewan MacColl tribute performer all evening so no booking I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:06 AM

haSubject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:16 AM

Dick, I see that you say you have said that you have sung Ewan MacColl's "Sweet Thames". We don't book Ewan MacColl impersonators. I wouldn't want to listen to a Ewan MacColl tribute performer all evening so no booking I'm afraid.
very funny.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:57 AM

very funny.

Just following your own logic about anyone who has the temerity to sing a John Lennon song in a folk club.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 10:44 AM

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:57 AM

very funny.

Just following your own logic about anyone who has the temerity to sing a John Lennon song in a folk club.
no,I am not prepared to pay to sit ,through an evening of JohnLennon songs ,different thing all together .
http://www.dickmiles.com I dont think anyone visitng my site could seriously call me a Ewan Maccoll impersonator,My style is my own,my repertoire is ninety five per cent traditional. DickMiles

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:30 AM

no,I am not prepared to pay to sit ,through an evening of JohnLennon songs ,different thing all together .

Indeed it is, and something nobody but you has suggested.

I dont think anyone visitng my site could seriously call me a Ewan Maccoll impersonator

Of course you aren't Dick. I was just trying to point out the absurdity of your position that anyone who sings a John Lennon song is a John Lennon impersonator and that someone who sings one John Lennon is going to spend the entire evening doing nothing else.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM

that is not my position,
my position is that John Lennon is not a FOLKSINGER [Subjective opinion],I have never said that I object to anyone singing a JohnLennon song,in fact I said,that if I was booked at a club I would applaud,Iwould only give my opinion if I was asked.
I said I would not pay an entrance fee at a folk club to hear an evening of John Lennon songs[that is what a JohnLennon [Tribute /Impersonator IS]
a floor singer normally has two or three songs,IF he /she sings a Ray Davis song,a John Lennon,and a BobDylan song,how can they be aJohnLennon IMPERSONATOR.
they are probably not very interested in traditional music,which I think is sad., considering the wealth of tradional music that there is.
Please stop trying to twist my words

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 12:09 PM

'I dont think JohnLennon is a folk singer and I wouldnt cross the road to see him'

It must be nice to be a psychic. You could sort of 'cross the road' and see all sorts of people unavailable to the rest of us. I'd 'cross the road' to meet Miles Davis.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 04:37 PM

Mr Guest-Silence, I think it is up to you to provide us with something more diverting than Dick's insights into the validity of John Lennon as a folk singer. Until then, Dick holds us spellbound.

I always thought John Lennon was a folksinger. Played a guitar, sang through his nose, they sing his songs in folk clubs.....he could easily have been mistaken for one - without Dick's timely reminders!

Just because you don't really care about how the folk revival develops! You monster of indifference! Ask yourself - did Ewan MacColl die in vain? Do you want to see Martin Carthy's family without a job?

Show a sense a of proportion! A cottage industry is at stake.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:15 PM

I would be Happy to pay money to see in a folk club the Original Carter Family ,Leadbelly,Jimmie Rodgers,Blind Lemon Jefferson,Roscoe Holcomb,Clarence Ashley,but not John Lennon.
I may not be able to define what is folk music,but I have my own ideas[Subjective] ,as to what it is in a performer ,and his performance of songs, that makes him a Folk Singer and I do not see/hear that in Lennons work.
Lennon was a skilled songwriter and performer,so was Nat King Cole.
I have never been moved to sing any of their songs,and dont regard them as Folksingers ,neither do I regard myself as a Rock OR Jazz or Reggae singer.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 05:55 PM

As Rod Steiger said in No Way to Treat a Lady, its doesn't mean you're not a nice person sweetie!

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 06:47 PM

As for the wee drummer we tempered his pow
And made a football o his row-didi-dow
And kicket it in to the ocean to row
And take a bit bathe in the morning.

Subject: RE: Dick Miles jazz singer
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 08:01 PM

Oh bother. I wrote a carefully considered response to the Captain's 11 Feb 08 - 11:58 AM posting but it seems to have got lost. I wonder what I said. I'm not sure that I care anymore.

Anybody heard Whalley and Fletcher's version of Dylan's Lay down your weary Tune? Wonderful.