BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 10 May 08 - 02:49 PM

Help! I am being held hostage in my home by Exxon.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 10 May 08 - 06:57 PM

"Here in the UK we're paying £5/$10 for a gallon of diesel, so stop whinging (you're paying less than most and you should be paying the same) and start looking for an alternative - you're going to need one."

Looks like you and your fellow countrymen have done a super job of finding that alternative!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 May 08 - 07:16 PM

Toyota Corolla. It runs on the smell of the stuff. It's a 1999, we bought it new, and we've got about 20,000 miles on it. That's about 2,200 miles a year.

According to the "average yearly mileage" I've heard, 10,000+, I'd say we're doing pretty well.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 10 May 08 - 10:50 PM

I read all the comments with care......we are certainly going to be doing some energy conservation -- rebuilding our basement for a start and learning sweaters have other uses than when you go outside..! What I find really appalling about all this is that we (still, thank God) have some choices. we make a good income and can move money from ;Pot A to Pot B--what on earth do all those poor souls with fixed incomes do? Feed the kids or stay warm? Stay warm or eat less? these are truly awful choices...............

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 May 08 - 09:01 AM

They always have been. Take it from one who grew up that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:34 AM

"Hmmm..do I quit my job so I don't have to go to work and burn hydrocarbons? That'll show them bastards Stigward. Great idea."

I'm not suggesting anyone quits their jobs (unless they're a politician), but it is about making lifestyle changes and taking a degree of control and responsibility for our actions.

"It's not in the hands of the people. They got the people by the balls now. "

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Are you really so under the kosh you believe you have no power over these people? If so, that's pretty sad. You live in a capitalist society, and if you and everyone else choose to you can change your consumer habits and force change. It happens - ask Gerald Ratner. Time to feel the joy of consumer empowerment, unless of course you don't want to give up your current lifestyle regardless of the consequences for others.


"Looks like you and your fellow countrymen have done a super job of finding that alternative!"

Mock away, but things are changing down on the ground, for instance there are the seeds of a major shift in the way fuel is consumed as people refine their own under new laws designed to allow this - cutting out the oil companies at a stroke. There is a major shift in the UK to locally grown produce and people are recycling far more than could be imagined a decade ago as councils now provide the means to do so easily.

I drive a car that does virtually 50mpg on a good run, but I only drive it when I must. I use walk and use public transport (which is appalling in this country thanks to Thatcher privatising the buses in 1985 and Major following suit with the railways in the mid 90's much to the disgust of the general public; a policy Labour pledged to reverse and never did). These are small changes to my lifestyle, but if everyone did them it'd make a hell of a difference.

It's in the hands of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 08 - 12:47 PM

Complaints about the oil company profits show remarkable ignorance about business.
Who owns the oil and natural gas companies? You do!

Pension Funds- 27%
Mutual Funds, etc.
Individuals- 23%
IRAs- 23%
Institutions, not oil- 5%
Oil Corporate- 1-2%

Who gets hurt if the companies fail to make a profit? You do!

Data by *Sonecon, Sept. 2007; printed in NY Times Magazine, April 27, 2008.
*Economic advisory firm; includes members from Harvard, George Washington, Florida and other universities and analysis staff.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 May 08 - 03:04 PM

i never claim to be business savvy -- just appalled at the moment.....

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 11 May 08 - 03:24 PM

We are not exactly in the same state as the UK is. We still have a steady domestic supply of oil and we have refineries which is why we don't pay the same as people in the UK. I'd be interested in seeing just how much of the difference is due to taxes as well as the import costs.

But to the point, I wasn't mocking. Simple statement there. The UK has been paying much more than the United States for years and yet no one has come up with any real alternatives. I guess everyone is waiting for us to get pissed off and do something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 08 - 04:57 PM

Chief, true about UK (and Euro) prices. I remember filling up the rental car over there and deciding that I should take public transit instead.

However, that "steady domestic supply" depends on supplies from us up here in Canuckland. Now if the Chinese, Indians, etc. come up with better deals----? No, not a tenable scenario. Too much of our business is tied to the States, and we like those Florida-Hawaii vacations too much. And they might bite!

(UK has refineries as well. Could be the tax structure, and I don't know the cost of North Sea production which is from offshore rigs.)

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 May 08 - 05:19 PM

Q, your comment about "remarkable ignorance" is rather elitist. You are making an assumption that people who can't afford to heat their home or run their car are heavily invested in Bay Street. That simply ain't so! The resource belongs to the people, not the corporations, and the little guy is getting screwed!
                   Sandy

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 08 - 06:56 PM

Sandy McLean- Do you have an IRA? Have you put money in a savings and loan? Do you buy insurance? Mutual funds? If so, part of the income or interest probably comes from oil and gas corporations.

What are the federal taxes? State taxes?
So, what percentage of the price per barrel actually goes to the resource company?

$50-$60 of that $115 (or whatever)/bbl price is due to futures trading and speculation by financial institutions. Take that off and one is down to maybe $60.
What does the producing country charge? OPEC sets their price, everyone else (including those not members of the Club) is happy to follow suit.
Example: Exxon-Mobil, 2006 Report (rounded off)
Revenue- $370,000 million
Cost-    $183,000 million crude oil and product purchases
Cost Total to Company- $310,000 (includes refining, taxes etc.)
Thus only about 18% was profit in 2006.

We were down to $60 for that barrel of oil actual landed cost. If the oil company gets 18%, that is about $11 per barrel.
$11 out of $115 for each barrel ain't all that much.

I did this in my head; not responsible for errors.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 11 May 08 - 08:17 PM

No IRA or Savings and Loan here. Are these not USA terms? Why exclude futures trading? It's all part of the same pot of greed and insurance companies are high on that list as well! Chavez can sell domestic gas in Venezuala for $0.19 per litre. The oil companies will pay his price for crude even if they scream like stabbed pigs. His domestic market is served first before exports are allowed. He is not my hero but he sees that his countries resources benefit his people. We could learn from him!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 May 08 - 12:40 AM

So maybe you could live happily on Venezuela's average per capita income of $12,000 (acc. to Venezuela) but only $4800 (World Bank Est.) Gasoline cheap but little else.
UK- $35000 per capita income,
Canada- $38000
US- $46000
Ireland- $46000
Arab Emirates- $55000
All figures 2007 estimates.

Canada Census income figures for family with one child here in Calgary, a city of 1.1 million- $81,000. The average house costs $475,000. Gasoline a minor item for most of us. (But pity the poor truckers, etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Slag
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:39 AM

Pray for global warming. It may keep you warm next Winter. But don't hold your breath. So far GW (Global Warming, not the other GW) is a big dud (well, maybe the other GW too).

For immediate action, if every working stiff would stay home from work on one selected day it would send a message to the powers that be to bring their oil prices more into line with the traditional ratio of the past. If it doesn't work, then make it a week! We could turn it around if we would all do this. This would be a time when we could really show an interest in our neighbors and help them through the difficulties that may ensue. Impossible you say? Well, if we don't do something on this order we may all be sitting home anyhow in the not to distant future. Don't think another Great Depression can't happen. If the money becomes worth less than the paper it's printed on...

Which leads to my next topic: Real Economics 101
1933, the U.S. ends the gold standard. Federal Reserve notes circulate. Only $1.00 bills (for the most part) have silver backing. Many arguments pro and con have been argued over gold since before the American Civil War. "The inflexibility of the (perceived) intrinsic value of gold has lead (no pun intended)", the opponents say, "to several recessions and also to the Depression." Roosevelt orders a meltdown of all 1933 gold coinage (except for 5 Double Eagles) but throws the public a bone by fixing the price at $32 an ounce. Silver's price is fixed to a permanent ratio of 1:32 but now Uncle Sam can print all the money he wants. Yes I know, it is much more complicated than that but this is Econ 101, remember. The U.S. is saved with Roosevelt's wisdom, work programs, Social Security and World War II.

1964, Kennedy/Johnson and Congress take us off the silver standard in a move which echos what most of the rest of the world has already done. Again arguments pro and con preceded this event. Certain sheikdoms and kingdoms demanded all payments for oil in silver. The U.S. Silver standard was bankrupting many foreign economies including some big U.S. trading partners. Argentina (ironically) and Mexico were constantly going into financial free fall on a regular basis. World Bank didn't like our silver standard. Good bye AU, hello CU.
Before we discuss Copper (CU), note that another brainy thing Jimmy Carter did is make it legal for U.S. citizens to own gold again. This was a mixed bag as it freed U.S. gold from the artificial $32 an ounce and allowed it to seek its own level and thereby establishing a relative "intrinsic" value of the Dollar against gold in the global commodities market. This was one of the things which lead the infamous Hunt brothers to try and corner the silver market which had an astounding effect on the price of silver which is still with us today.

1982 Goodbye Cu, hello Zn. Our last coin of ancient intrinsic value was the U.S. small cent. Trillions of the little things had been minted over the years but the copper cent was too strong against the Dollar. As the price of copper rose ( or rather as the value of the Dollar fell) it became cost prohibitive for the U.S. to continue to mint them. Since 1982 all U.S. cents have been made out of Zinc which has a thin copper plating around it.

What has this got to do with oil? Well, if you stop and reflect for a moment, the thing that has changed is NOT the gold or the silver or the copper, it's the Dollar. Fiat money. Uncle Sam say "Let it be money!" and he wants you to think it's money! It isn't money. It's just the government's word that it's money. The metals all have an intrinsic value. They also have a technical value which is why they are bought and sold in the commodities market. Oil also has a value as a commodity. The difference between the metals and the oil is this. Once the oil is used, it is (for the most part [gasoline]) GONE! There is very little left of any value after it has been used. Most of the metals can be returned to a pristine state and could be reissued as coinage. Because of the nature of oil and it's consumption, it hammers many of the world's economies which are dependent on it. The wise sheiks still want payment in something more stable than the U.S. Dollar. They will take whatever they can get in influence, military hardware and business inroads into this and any country where it is legal to do so. England has just about handed it's existence over to the powers of those certain Middle Eastern Kingdoms and the U.S. is not far behind.

There are measures which this country could take which would turn the situation around but it will not do so. Our sovereignty has been compromised and our "leaders" have all bowed the knee. We are headed toward a one world government and very few Americans are going to like it. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Naemanson
Date: 12 May 08 - 05:13 AM

Oh, are oil prices high? The used vegetable oil I use in my car is still free.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:12 AM

Slag, I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that late last week Congress approved making pennies and nickels out of steel.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: pdq
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:53 AM

Q,

I think your guess at Big Oil's profit margin is way high. I believe most US oil companies made 5-6% before the ouster of Saddam Hussein. Now they make 6-8%. Compare that to insurance companies and banks and it is similar. Investment bankers and lawyers make obscene profit, most companies do not.

If you consider the oil companies' huge investments, the amount of hard work and danger inherent in the oil business, they probably are underpaid. See Microsoft for comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:42 PM

Oil company profits go up and down, and your overall estimate for profit margin is probably close to the truth if one averages over a ten-year period or so.
My figures used the Exxon-Mobil Annual Report for just one year, 2006, a year with rising prices. If one would look more deeply into the Company. allowances for contingencies, future taxes, repayments planned on old debt, etc., the earnings per share would be much less. After shareholder dividends are paid, the amount of new funds available to the company would be relatively small. I am not an economist, and if results are not in words of one syllable, a get boggled. My figures trying to relate to cost/bbl could be way off.

Some more figures- (selected)
Royal Dutch Shell Annual Report, 2007
Revenue 366,000 million
Earnings- $32,000 million
Earnings per ordinary share- $5.00
Costs and Expenses-?
Dividends paid, common shares- $1.44
Capital investment- $27,000 million (includes depreciation, etc.;, $19 billion actual)

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Guest Q
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:48 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Guest Q
Date: 12 May 08 - 01:50 PM

My cookie lifted again after two days. Q
Don't think I will bother with it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 May 08 - 02:02 PM

Just a casual observation as I'm passing through. Whether you use "GW" to mean George W. Bush or Global Warming, it's still a whole lot of hot air. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 May 08 - 02:10 PM

Exxon has recorded the highest profit in the history of any company in the the world at a time that the industry is troubled!
Gimmee a break!

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Guest Q
Date: 12 May 08 - 03:45 PM

So? $2.13 per share for the quarter. $1.76/share previous. Not bad. Shareholders, millions of them, are happy.
110 million shares cost- $9.5 billion (1st. 1/4, 2008)

Microsoft- $1.42/share. Not nearly so good.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Slag
Date: 12 May 08 - 04:59 PM

Thank you Don_F! I needed that! Yes Rap! As I said, the truth is a much more complicated picture of the interaction of different economies and world events. New tech, mega-disasters, wars, blood diamonds, etc. all help to shape the conditions as they are. However, the purely (!) economic factors I have mentioned have played a huge role in the shape of the current scenario. The U.S. and other democracies need to cut ties with oil-dictatorships, oil-monarchies, oil cartels, etc. as quickly as possible. I would love to see an all out effort made to develop alternate energy sources. Then Hugo and the sheiks could fill their swimming pools with oil and go for a dip and we could put our oil to better use in chemical industries and the like. The atmosphere would be sure to benefit. This is definitely the direction to take.

Steel pennies! At least they will wear longer. Does this mean that our current crisis is equal to what we faced in war-torn 1943 when pennies were first minted in steel (and zinc coated)? Could be!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 12 May 08 - 06:27 PM

'Stigweard' - the railway is gradually being re-nationalised by stealth, they're probably half-way there by now but will they finish the job? I read somewhere that the subsidy they get now is 5X what it was before they were privatised - making it all very pointless!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 12 May 08 - 06:46 PM

The railway is doing very well on short distance international passenger journeys via the Channel Tunnel, they could do much better on medium distance journeys if they sorted the fare structure out to make it cheaper and thus more competetive with airlines. Also, they should be running through trains from the principalities to further than Paris/Brussels, i.e. Birmingham/Manchester/Liverpool/Glasgow/Edinburgh/Newcastle/York/
Leeds - Italy/Germany/Switzerland/Austria.

There is also huge scope for improved through freight services as they are too slow at present, being held up by protracted customs checks at international borders as well as locomotive changes as there are insufficent multi-voltage loco's to work throughout on each countries' different electrification systems using different voltages. Juggernauts seem to be able to drift through effortlessly although I am not sure what the position is with driver's working hours!

The time was never riper than at present for these changes as the railways are in a prime position to compete with air/road because of the increasing costs in fuel & pollution. It just has to be done, the sooner the better!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 12 May 08 - 06:49 PM

THe profit margins are much higher than they are admitting. The problem is in the way things are being laid down in the books. Instead of just saying that the overhead to produce 1 gallon of gasoline is $2.00, tax is $(whatever) and we make $.08 per gallon the companies have fragmented themselves.

(Exxon)Drilling Company charges the (Exxon)Oil Company $$$ per barrel (with a small profit per gallon). (Exxon)Sea River Shipping (the company that now owns the Exxon fleet, including the former Exxon Valdez) charges (Exxon)Oil Company $$$ per barrel to transport it (with a small profit per barrel), The (Exxon)Refining Company charges the (Exxon)Oil Company $$$ per barrel (with a small profit per gallon) for processing/refining the crude. The(Exxon)Oil Company then sells it to your gas station at the total of these costs plus their own "small profit" to which the gas stations add $.02 to $.03 per gallon. In this way it looks like Exxon Oil Co. is only making a small profit pre gallon when in fact a large percentage of the price goes to themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:31 PM

What a great idea! Do you think I could get it to work for me?

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Guest is Q
Date: 12 May 08 - 09:32 PM

All profits, regardless of number of subsidiary operations, upstream, downstream, etc., all come together in the Annual Reports.
See figures posted 11 May 08 for 2006. The net income was $39,500,000 million, or $6.68 / share.

Long term obligations (pensions, etc.), reserves for the future, etc., haven't been discussed yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 May 08 - 06:55 AM

Rail - well they put in a new line - ha! the rails were there most of the way.... out to Brisbane Airport (both Intl & Domestic). The fare is $10 one way - no discounts - I can't afford it - nearly same cost as taxi from here. Similar distance journeys otherwise cost just a few dollars - half for pensioners. Profit!!!! Funny, but That Name - used for the 'service' is the sponsor of the traffic copter on one TV News channel - now THAT ain't cheap....

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 13 May 08 - 09:26 AM

Chief Chaos is correct, they are making plenty of money.

Google Finance Stats on Exxon

Their Return On Equity last year AFTER all costs, pigout CEO salaries, etc. was 34%. That is very high--I think typical corporate profits tend to run more like 12%. Means for every dollar of assets, they got back 34 cents last year. Whereas you got 4% on your CDs or whatever.

The oil companies have deliberately underinvested in exploration and refineries and otherwise been causative of this mess. But what is really sending oil sky high is the devaluation of our currency(ies) and that can be laid squarely at the feet of the eejits running our government and banks.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: pdq
Date: 13 May 08 - 12:06 PM

From the website linked in the last post, Exxon-Mobil had a TTM (trailing twelve months) profit of 9.75%. If people think that is worth whining about, fine. Either that of perhaps you should buy their stock. At any rate, it ain't no 43% or even 34%, it is 9.75% in the last twelve months, which is after they paid a huge amount in federal taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Guest is Q
Date: 13 May 08 - 04:35 PM

Exxon-Mobil Annual Report 2006-
http://www.exxonmobil.com/corporate/files/corporate/XOM_2006_SAR.pdf

Royal Dutch Shell Annual Report 2007
http://www.shell.com/home/content/media/reports_publications/dir_reports_publications_31032008.html
Revenue- 355,782 million
Income- 31,926 million
Basic earnings/share- $5.00

pdq is correct. It pays to put profit figures in context, not take isolated numbers from some news blog, etc. The annual reports, issued to every common share holder, are worth reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 13 May 08 - 09:17 PM

You're fooling only yourself if you think the actual cost for pumping a barrel of oil actually doubled over the last year.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 14 May 08 - 10:25 AM

Jim - I agree with you totally about the railways. The price of fares are putting people off the railways even though the service has improved - Manchester - London in under two hours. However, it's at a cost. I was in London and found myself back at the train station an hour before my booked train was due to leave. I went to change the booking and they wanted an additional £109 to go an hour early. I was stunned; the train left the station with empty seats and I had to wait an extra hour and eventually went home on packed commuter train. A fiasco.

It's going to take a government with balls to sport out the railways, and I suspect this lot isn't the one and if the bleedin' Tories get in then that'll be that, as they are so utterly against any sort of state control (although I believe even Thatcher thought that rail privatisation was a step too far - but Major didn't).

It's like the NHS in that it has to be seen as a service for the people, not to turn a profit. I mean, what politician expects a financial return when they stick a £25k bomb on a mud hut full of kids in Iraq?

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 14 May 08 - 12:02 PM

Net profit margin is a helpful figure regarding retail outfits, but a figure that gets manipulated by accountants so creatively that it is not helpful in comparing the total profitability of companies. The harder number is the return on equity.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Donuel
Date: 14 May 08 - 12:14 PM

CNN reported today that no matter what YOU think, the price of oil has actually gone down once we make 'seasonal' adjustments.


so there.

who are you going to believe? Them or your lying eyes?

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:23 AM

"20 miles a gallon? There's the problem in a nutshell - complete disregard for the fact the resource you're using is finite. Buy a more efficient car for a start."

So simple, isn't it Stig.

When you're sitting up there, on your high moral pinnacle, telling us stupid lower orders how WE ought to behave, without having the slightest idea of the circumstances of those you harangue, it must make you feel SO BIG, and GOOD, and CLEVER.

Some of us have cars with large engines for very good reasons. My 2.9 litre (saloon, not 4x4) is more economical when towing a caravan than a 2.0litre, though it is more thirsty when not towing.

Even so, I would now rather have the smaller one. GUESS WHAT! Nobody wants to buy my large but elderly car, and I couldn't afford to buy another for what I would get anyway.

I have to have a car because my journey to work is 30 miles at right angles to the direction of travel of local railways.

So perhaps you would, in your infinite wisdom, suggest a way in which I might follow your example.

Alternatively, you could just get over your own cleverness, and recognise that some may not be as well off as you.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:53 AM

We cannot buy cars that get 50mpg in the US. We could once--I had one twenty odd years ago that averaged more than 55mpg, city and highway combined. Funny that with all the improvements in every kind of technology, these tiny new cars that are allegedly more fuel efficient only promise 30-35mpg--

Truth be told, all you UKers, 20mpg is pretty good mileage for a run of the mill American car--it is way more than most of the SUVs can get, even on a good day--some, such as the still ubiquitous Chevy Suburban,are rated 9mph/city, 13mph/hwy--which means that leadfoot, out-of-tune, with low air in the tires probably gets 5 or 6--

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:31 AM

M Ted

that's why sales of imported cars have risen and why US car workers jobs have been steadily declining.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 16 May 08 - 05:42 AM

No form of automobile is the answer for a sustainable future - build railways (where needed) and don't live too far from them!

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 16 May 08 - 06:47 AM

"When you're sitting up there, on your high moral pinnacle, telling us stupid lower orders how WE ought to behave, without having the slightest idea of the circumstances of those you harangue, it must make you feel SO BIG, and GOOD, and CLEVER.

Alternatively, you could just get over your own cleverness, and recognise that some may not be as well off as you."

Obviously touched a nerve there . . . nice to see hypocrisy raising it's ugly head as you harangue me without knowing my circumstances.

If you can afford to pay for the petrol to go caravanning around then you're better off than I am. I'm sitting working my buttocks off here struggling to make my fucking mortgage payments because some cock in the US of A saw a way to make a few bucks from all those poor souls who wanted buy into the sham of the American Dream and sod the consequences for everyone else - which happen to be significant in my line of work as a designer as the downturn caused by the subprime fiasco has crossed the Atlantic takes hold. Not your fault I grant, but don't slate me for doing my bit for the planet in the meantime. Paint yourself as the deserving poor if you wish, but I'm getting the sense some of you statesiders feel pretty powerless in the face of the big business society you voted for and that must hurt.

But of course you're not powerless, because you are a consumer in an economy that relies on consumption. The power, ultimately rests with the individual who can make an informed choice about the type of vehicle they buy and the way they live their life. These choices dictate the market and this so if you don't buy a wasteful vehicle and buy one that is more efficient then the makers will supply those cars.

Don - your work commute entails a 60-mile round trip in a guzzling car. As Jim said above this is not going to be sustainable in the future and so we all need to change. I personally don't believe we should abandon our cars and ride around on a donkey, but we need to change our habits to reflect the current problems we face collectively. 5-6 miles per gallon? That is pathetic and utterly unsustainable and cars of this ilk should simply be taken off the road. Bleedin' fire engines do better mpg than that.

As I said in my last post the choice is yours and mine as to how we deal with the oil crisis and the environmental problems facing the world. You can take offence from what I said all you want (none was intended) but at least take some responsibility for your actions one way or the other, as I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 May 08 - 11:14 AM

"but I'm getting the sense some of you statesiders feel pretty powerless in the face of the big business society you voted for and that must hurt"

I live in KENT, UK, which kind of proves my point about you knowing nothing of my circumstances.

I go caravanning because, if I didn't I could not afford a holiday at all.....EVER!

I haven't been further than Sidmouth in 20 years, and that far only once a year, and I'm denied even that this year because of the escalating cost of living.

I DON'T have the choices you suggest.

I don't LIVE, I EXIST, or more accurately I SUBSIST.

I thought I had made provision for retirement, then New Labour came on the scene and Gordon (The prudent) Brown prudently took away half of my pension.

I face the prospect of working until I am in my eighties, not for the little luxuries, but for the necessities of life.

Offence? You bet I take offence when someone who can't even be arsed to find out which side of the Atlantic I'm on, sets himself up to sit in moral judgement of my way of life (if I may laughingly call it that).

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 May 08 - 11:23 AM

P.S. I don't even have a mortgage, my house is rented, which means that when you have finally paid of your mortgage, I will still be having to find hundreds of pounds per month for the rest of my life.

Do however tell this poor hypocrite just how you would go about buying any kind of vehicle without money.

After paying all my bills I have approximately £25 per week to cover clothing, car maintenance, entertainment and any unexpected expenses.

I await the revelations of your superior intellect.

Of course I could buy a Dinky Toy car, but I DON'T think it would get me to work, and then I wouldn't be able even to pay my bills, let alone anything else.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:52 PM

"Offence? You bet I take offence when someone who can't even be arsed to find out which side of the Atlantic I'm on, sets himself up to sit in moral judgement of my way of life (if I may laughingly call it that)."

Fair cop on the assumption - I apologise for this mistake and can assure you I was not sitting in moral judgement on any aspect of your life. I forget there are so many car-centric people in this country too. However, despite their guzzlers many people in the US have a case to make for needing a car for even the most basic of journeys. A friend of mine has moved to Florida and says the country has been built with cars in mind - you need one to get to the shops, pictures etc. Seeing as you live here I'm even more stunned you don't seem aware of the intense debate we are having in this country.

"I await the revelations of your superior intellect."

No offence, but fuck you. I won't apologise for my stance on this, and the inference from you it's some sort of chattering classes trend being foisted on a downtrodden underclass is a cop-out argument. You're dead wrong on that one son - you've no idea where I come from either and your assumptions are way wide of the mark. You might not give two shades of shit for anyone else but I can and will do my part for the sake of the generations following the fuck-up the previous ones have left us with.

"I face the prospect of working until I am in my eighties, not for the little luxuries, but for the necessities of life."

You and me both. There's always someone better or worse off than yourself, always some injustice, some excuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:30 PM

Read the whole thing you ass, and stop cherrypicking the bits you like.

I have told you that my job is thirty miles from home with no public transport connection, as is the case with many rural dwellers.

I don't have an excuse for using a car, I have a reason, and much as I would like to own one that uses less fuel, as I have already said, you can't buy without money.

You have lots of trite little put-downs, but bugger all in the way of answers, so don't judge me.

Out of here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:40 PM

I could take public transportation to work- but it is not practical.

Ignoring my hours ( based on satellite visibility, not normal time) I would have to
1. take the bus to the metro stop
2. take Metro to National Airport
3. take a flight to Dulles airport
4. take a shuttle bus to the nearest hotel
5. walk the remaing 2 miles to work


Instead, I drive the 42 miles, costing me 2- 2.5 gallons of gas each way.

Sure, I can buy a new car that would cut the gas in half- as soon as someone gives me $20-30,000 extra- my car is paid off.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Stu
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:51 PM

"You have lots of trite little put-downs, but bugger all in the way of answers, so don't judge me."

For the last time Don: I'm not judging you.

Answers? I told you what I do, but you know what? You're right. I don't have answers for every person in every circumstance so you're right, and I'm wrong. I'll keep my fat pompus mouth shut and everyone can go to hell in a handbasket. It's been too long a week and I'm going for an ale.

Have a good weekend and take care.

Subject: RE: BS: Am I the only one stunned by oil prices?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 08 - 01:51 PM

It hit $127 a barrel today as GWB is in Saudi Arabia playing with the Kin'gs Arabian horses.