BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:21 PM

"... 9000 votes reported in a precinct where 5000 voters voted. After all, the Democrats won, so it must be perfectly ok..."

I repeat: It is NOT ok to have either cheating OR flaws in the voting procedure. It was not 'OK' for JFKs daddy to buy votes in Chicago...if he did... That, just like the 2000 Florida fiasco, was never 'proven', though it turned out ok and we didn't have Nixon as president for the Cuban missle crisis.

   
And, as you know BB, I vote in MD too...and that suggestion that the votes are already 'rigged' for Obama is pretty heavy...you don't know any such thing and it's inflammatory to assert it unless YOU have access to privileged information.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM

I am always a bit suspicious of the entire contents of cut-n-paste internet articles when I find that one part of it is fallacious. The article Katlaughing posted says, in part, that "a new website, stealbackyourvote.org, recently learned about "caging" plan for parts of Florida. Caging is a process in which letters are sent to registered voters and when the letter is returned, the voter's name is taken off the rolls. The plan was to send letters to voters in majority black districts, including soldiers at an army base in the black community in Jacksonville." There is no army base in Jacksonville, FL, and the city is only 29% black.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM

"...sending mail to known foreclosures, getting that mail back as undeliverable due to the addressee having moved due to the foreclosure, then using that returned mail as proof the person should be purged from the voter rolls

How can someone lose their vote because they aren't living in the same home they were living in when they were registered, because it's been foreclosed, or for any other reason? Surely once you're on the current register you're entitled to vote in that area, no matter where you are living by the time the election comes round?

That's how it works with us anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:12 PM

I hadn't been conscious of the term "caging," and I had never seen or heard any report including that errorneous information about Jacksonville having a military base.

***********
Incidentally, just because a given city has a relatively small black population ~ if 29% is really all that small ~ it doesn't mean that there are no majority-black precincts within that city. Indeed, in most American cities, except a very few of the most racially integrated, most black voters are concentrated in majority-black (i.e., "ghetto") areas.
***********

Back to the subject at hand: while I've not been aware of the "caging" claims, I did hear a detailed report on NPR a couple of weeks ago about how large numbers of registered Democrats in Florida had received mailings (a) asking them to "verify" that they were indeed registered as Republicans and (2) printed with the local registrar of voters as the return address.

~ In every case, the local registrar denies having had anything to do with the mailing.

~ There have been enough complaints from registered Democrats in areas across the state for the issue to have been discussed on the floor of the state legilature.

~ The targeted recipients were all over the age of 65. Apparently, there was some hope of introducing confusion, making older folks believe that their registration had been switched and perhaps discouraging them from voting at all. Another possibiliy is that some recipients might mail the local registrar a pre-printed "response" form whereby they would inadvertently change their registration to Republican.

~ Also, interestingly enough, there are NO recorded cases of registered Republicans complaining about mail mistakenly informing then that they were registered as Democrats.

I had not heard that failure to respond would result in removal of the voter from the rolls, in what is apparently called "caging."

Apparently, either there are two different kinds of fraudulent mailings in Florida designed to discourage and/or disenfranchise non-Republican voters, or there's only one such case of statewide mail fraud, with one factual report about it, plus another exaggerated report.

You'll notice I wrote "designed to discourage non-Republican voters," not "perpetrated by the Republican party." The actual official party structure always makes sure not to dirty their hands with such subversion of the democratic process. It's always done by "independent" groups, such as the "swiftboaters," the Watergate burglers, etc.

How many of the individuals involved might "coincidentally" be members of the party hierarchy as well as members of the "independent" groups, we'll never know.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:25 PM

There are no military installations in any predominately black areas of Jacksonville, Florida. Unless the demographics have changed radically in the twenty-five years since I moved away from the place (after living there for 30+ years), the only sections of town that could be described as "black communties" are in or near the city center and on the northside. The principle military installations are Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, on the westside and Mayport Naval Station, on the Atlantic coast at the mouth of the St. Johns River. Also, as far as I know, the US Army has no substantial presence in the area. It's all Navy. The only major Army base in Florida is in Orlando.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:35 PM

I am sorry. But it is too late to bicker about trivialities anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:43 PM

Speaking of being "happy", it strikes me that the admitted/publicized/perceived Republicans amongst the Mudcat rolls have not been all that happy the last few years. In fact, except for the glee exhibited by some on Election Day in 2000 and in 2004 I don't remember *ever* reading anyone saying they were happy with how things were going.

Why is that?

And now, when there is a chance that it will not be a Republican administration in this next go'round, what comes across is bitterness at potentially losing, *not* worry that the Democrats will make a bigger mess of it than the Republicans did.

Why is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:43 PM

What were the criteria for being able to do the one stop early registration and voting in Ohio?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM

I'm fascinated by the term "caging". It doesn't suggest anything to me resembling sending mail designed to be "bounced" in order to disqualify voters of a target community.

I assume it's a metaphor of some type, but my aging brain doesn't put things together here. Does anyone understand why that word is applied to that practice?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:24 PM

This interview has some interesting discussion about caging and the 2008 election...

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/interviews/061

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:31 AM

artbrooks, thanks for catching that. I will email the writer.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:06 AM

I'm still puzzled by this weird idea that if you move house you lose your vote unless you've re-registered or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM

You don't, McGrath. You can travel back to the precinct where you are on the register and vote. No problem. Or you can go to your new precinct and vote a 'questioned' ballot, which simply means that it will be examined later.

Or you can change to your new address before the election.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:45 AM

Your residency (address) can affect your eligibility for voting in local elections in a given jurisdiction, but any American citizen can vote for President regardless of how recently he/she might have moved.

That's the law, but of course where there are crooked political hacks in the state attorney general's office, it's quite possible that this law will be broken and selected citizens (the old, the poor, blacks, active duty military, etc.) will be denied the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM

Poppagator assured McGrath:

Your residency (address) can affect your eligibility for voting in local elections in a given jurisdiction, but any American citizen can vote for President regardless of how recently he/she might have moved.

Poppagator, I don't know what state you live in, but that's not my understanding, in Indiana or in Minnesota, where I spent my first 30 years. It may be that what you say would be just and desirable, but I don't think it's so, at least in most jurisdictions.

Voting laws in the United States are creatures of state law. Every state has its own requirements; there are no federal voting qualification rules. The Constitution requires the states to be evenhanded and nondiscriminatory in its rules (supposedly), but all of the details are set by the respective states.

Remember that the individual does not vote for President; he votes for an Elector (or maybe it's a set of Electors), and it's on a state basis. The Constitution says nothing about how Electors are chosen; it's left up to the states. Originally they were chosen by the respective state legislatures, just as Senators were, though today I believe all states provide for popular election of Electors. If you mark your ballot for Schultz for president, you're really voting for a slate of Electors pledged to enter their electoral votes for Schultz. Some states award all their electoral votes based on winner-take-all, while some apportion them roughly according to the vote percentages.

So Electors, although provided for by the Constitution, are in effect officers of the particular state. You can think of them as representatives from the state to a third house of the federal legislature which meets only once in four years, for a single issue, the selection of the chief magistrate and his vice. (In actual fact, the Electoral College does not actually meet at all, but electoral votes are submitted to Washington by mail.)

Residency requirements have at least two purposes. In no order of importance, they are:
1. What you evidently refer to, that the local folks who are to be represented in state matters choose their public officers, uninfluenced by "furriners".
2. To help control voter fraud, e.g. individuals voting in multiple districts.

I have never been aware of a nonresident being allowed to "partially register", only to vote on presidential matters. If you think that would be desirable, I think it would probably take a Constitutional Amendment.

And current residency with cutoff dates is important so that local voting authorities have time to do administrative things before election time, such as providing enough polling place personnel for the traffic, providing enough paper ballots if appropriate, and of course checking the qualifications of registrants.

I can assure you, Poppagator, that if you move to Indiana on November 1st you will not be allowed to vote either for local and state officials or in whose presidential electors are to be chosen.

If I'm wrong, give me details, please.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:12 PM

Good summary.

Thanks, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM

Strikes me as a lot simpler to have a system where, once you are on the electoral register, that's where you are entitled to vote until it get updated, or until maybe you yourself apply to get it amended, because you have relocated to a different part of the country, and want to be able to vote there instead.

Putting decisions about this kind of thing into the hands of politically motivated people, who are prone to care a lot more about achieving victory rather than defending democracy, seems like a pretty serious error. It's asking for trouble and corruption, and it's not surprising if it achieves those things.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:39 PM

Alleging fraud, authorities raid voter group

ACORN's canvassers filled out forms with fake names, addresses, officials say

By ADRIENNE PACKER and MOLLY BALL
REVIEW-JOURNAL

Authorities on Tuesday morning raid the offices of ACORN, a voter registration organization, and seize registration forms and computer databases.
Photo by Craig L. Moran.

State authorities on Tuesday raided an organization that registers low-income people to vote, alleging that its canvassers falsified forms with bogus names, fake addresses or famous personalities.

The secretary of state's office launched an investigation after noticing that names did not match addresses and that most members of the Dallas Cowboys appeared to be registering in Nevada to vote in November's general election.

"Some of these (forms) were facially fraudulent; we basically had the starting lineup for the Dallas Cowboys," Secretary of State Ross Miller said. "Tony Romo is not registered to vote in Nevada. Anyone trying to pose as Terrell Owens won't be able to cast a ballot."

Agents with the secretary of state and state attorney general offices served a search warrant on the headquarters of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, at 953 E. Sahara Ave. shortly after 9 a.m. They seized voter registration forms and computer databases to determine how many fake forms were submitted and identify employees who were responsible.

They also sought information regarding current and past employees and managers.

"We don't know how many (falsified forms) are here; there may be two, or there may be thousands," said Bob Walsh, spokesman for the secretary of state's office.

Registration fraud typically stems from workers striving to meet their daily quota of submitted voter forms, Miller said.

---

Lengthy copy-paste deleted. Full article is here (click). C'mon, Bruce! Don't you know how to condense something like that?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:52 PM

Poor people can't afford cable television, therefore, they can't watch Fox news. So how can they be informed?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:26 PM

BeardedBruce, thank you for the article.

That situation should definitely be investigated, and anyone involved with fraudulent applications should be prosecuted.

I did see this in there:

ACORN's other major activity is housing aid, for which it is eligible for federal grants from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac under newly enacted affordable-housing provisions.

Nevada Sen. John Ensign, a Republican, on Tuesday called for the suspension of the affordable housing funds because they might be going to "controversial groups like ACORN."

Note that Ensign "called for the suspension of the affordable housing funds because they might be going to controversial groups like ACORN."

That's wrong, wrong, wrong on two counts: The "might be" without more proof shouldn't be a ground for suspension, and "controversial" doesn't necessarily mean "wrongful" or "criminal" or "guilty" or whatever. If it can be shown that ACORN's management set things up with intent to create and file fraudulent registrations, or committed what might be called "negligent fraud" by purposely undersupervising registration operations, then the ACORN officials should be punished, of course. But the actual housing aid operation should not be made to suffer because there is controversy over the registration effort.

Actually, "suspension of the affordable housing funds" sounds to me as if he's asking for suspension of those funds as to other organizations than ACORN because the funds "might be" going to "controversial" groups. That sounds to me like a pretextual attack on the very idea of affordable housing.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:36 PM

Dave,

I agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:51 PM

Dave,

Mea culpa, you're right. As a poll commissioner, I was recently instructed as to how one's address within the state of Louisiana would be irrelevant in the Presidential election, even though it would be an issue in local races. I was wrong to assume that a similar situation might exist nationwide across state lines.

I also agree wholeheartedly with your more recent post about the ACORN housing-aid operation.

I doubt that other local ACORN offices have been engaging in the same kind of fraud as that Neveda group appantely has. Of course, I'm sure that all of them will now be under some scrutiny.

In the first major local New Orleans election after Katrina, ACORN played an active role in transporting indigent evacuees back to town to vote. They supplied busses from, and back to, the major shelters and associated service-centers in Houston and perhaps a few other cities with high temporary populations of evacuees.

The people for whom this service was being provided were poor folk who had not been able to evacuate on their own, who had been stuck in the city for that hellish week or so during and after the storm, and who were then transported out of town by governmental agencies to vartious publicly-supported shelters.

No problem, perfectly legal, etc., etc. I couldn't and wouldn't object. Residency rules were, quite properly, more-or-less suspended during that period, when more than 80% of the area's population was displaced, in most cases temporarily. Anyone previously registered in New Orleans, and currently on the rolls as an active voter, could vote even if not currently occupying their flooded local address. Many middle-class folks traveling on their own dime came into town to vote, make a quick stop at their devasted home, and then go back to grandma's house or wherever they were temporarily residing.

After the election, I began to feel a little differently about the organized transportation of those indigent displaced persons. One or more of the local TV stations aired exit interviews with some of the bus-riding voters. Thery were asked "do you plan to return to New Orleans?" and many of them said "No." I was pretty unhappy about that ~ seems that the only reason many of these people returned to vote had nothing to do with their interest as local citizens and residents in how the city would be run. Their only motivation was to assure that a city in which they never planned to live again would NOT have a white mayor.

So, those are the people we can thank for the ridiculously incompetent C. Ray Nagin being reelected by a fairly narrow margin. I feel sure that his defeated opponent, Lieutenant Governor Mitch Landrieu, would be doing a much better job than Nagin is, had he won.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 07:18 PM

So poor people driven out from their homes by a natural disaster, and by the failure of their country to respond adequately to that disaster, or to act responsibly to guard against it, should be deorived of the right to have a say in the future of that city in the aftermath because they realistically reciognise that it is not likely to be possible for them ever to go home to live?

Well, it's not quite "only in America", because there probably are some other places where that kind of thinking can be found. I wouldn't want to live in them though. (And in fact I don't believe that most Americans would share that way of thinking.)

But I'm still puzzled by all this. In my country an electoral roll is drawn up which entitles you to vote in a particular locality and it gets revised on an annual basis, to take into account changes of address. (And it's possible to get your name added to that electoral roll in the meantime, if for some reason you aren't on it.) But no matter where you have gone to live in the meantime, even if it's in another country, you are entitled in principle to use that vote in that locality for local or national or supranational elections. Isn't there an equivalent system in the USA?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:06 PM

One can register in another state or area, and/or request and absentee ballot from the place where they are registered no matter where they are living. I've had to do that.
                The problem I had was, when I came back, they thought I was still out of the area and wouldn't let me vote on the regular ballot. In fact, whatever election it was--I don't remember, I wasn't able to vote at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Arkie
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:51 PM

Interesting; some try to encourage people to vote; some try to prohibit people from voting. In any case fraud is never an acceptable option irregardless of one's political stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:27 AM

I would be happy if they (the Republicans) all marched off a cliff like lemmings are reputed to do.... ;-) I would be even happier if the Democrats then followed them into that same abyss. It could be paved over and turned into a giant mausoleum commemorating the folly of party politics in America. Future generations would come to look at it and marvel.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:02 AM

States' purges of voter rolls appears illegal...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27093919/

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:15 AM

So what legal penalties are imposed on to the people who are responsible for such illegal activities?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:24 AM

Probably none. We are apparently a nation of men and not laws.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:27 AM

But if they don't get this fixed, we might not know who the next president is for weeks or even months after the election, and the outcome of the election will very probably end up in the courts.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:35 AM

If they don't get fixed, we can never be confident that the winner actually was the winner ( by votes).

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 07:50 AM

Missouri officials suspect fake voter registration
By BILL DRAPER, Associated Press Writer
Wed Oct 8, 9:45 PM ET



KANSAS CITY, Mo. - Officials in Missouri, a hard-fought jewel in the presidential race, are sifting through possibly hundreds of questionable or duplicate voter-registration forms submitted by an advocacy group that has been accused of election fraud in other states.

Charlene Davis, co-director of the election board in Jackson County, where Kansas City is, said the fraudulent registration forms came from the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN. She said they were bogging down work Wednesday, the final day Missourians could register to vote.

"I don't even know the entire scope of it because registrations are coming in so heavy," Davis said. "We have identified about 100 duplicates, and probably 280 addresses that don't exist, people who have driver's license numbers that won't verify or Social Security numbers that won't verify. Some have no address at all."

The nonpartisan group works to recruit low-income voters, who tend to lean Democratic. Most polls show Republican presidential candidate John McCain with an edge in bellwether Missouri, but Democrat Barack Obama continues to put up a strong fight.

Jess Ordower, Midwest director of ACORN, said his group hasn't done any registrations in Kansas City since late August. He said he was told three weeks ago by election officials that there were only about 135 questionable cards — 85 of them duplicates.

"They keep telling different people different things," he said. "They gave us a list of 130, then told someone else it was 1,000."

FBI spokeswoman Bridget Patton said the agency has been in contact with elections officials about potential voter fraud and plans to investigate.

"It's a matter we take very seriously," Patton said. "It is against the law to register someone to vote who does not fall within the parameters to vote, or to put someone on there falsely."

On Tuesday, authorities in Nevada seized records from ACORN after finding fraudulent registration forms that included the starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys.

In April, eight ACORN workers in St. Louis city and county pleaded guilty to federal election fraud for submitting false registration cards for the 2006 election. U.S. Attorney Catherine Hanaway said they submitted cards with false addresses and names, and forged signatures.

Ordower said Wednesday that ACORN registered about 53,500 people in Missouri this year. He believes his group is being targeted because some politicians don't want that many low-income people having a voice.

"It's par for the course," he said. "When you're doing more registrations than anyone else in the country, some don't want low-income people being empowered to vote. There are pretty targeted attacks on us, but we're proud to be out there doing the patriotic thing getting people registered to vote."

Republicans are among ACORN's loudest critics. At a campaign stop in Bethlehem, Pa., supporters of John McCain interrupted his remarks Wednesday by shouting, "No more ACORN."

Debbie Mesloh, spokeswoman for the Obama campaign in Missouri, said in an e-mailed statement that the campaign supported any investigation of possible fraud.

According to its national Web site, the group has registered 1.3 million people nationwide for the Nov. 4 election. It also has encountered complaints of fraud stemming from registration efforts in Wisconsin, New Mexico, Nevada and battleground states like Michigan, Ohio and North Carolina, where new voter registrations have favored Democrats nearly 4 to 1 since the beginning of this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 07:52 AM

NUTS!
HOW ACORN GOT ME INTO VOTE SCAM
By JEANE MacINTOSH, Post Correspondent

CLEVELAND - Two Ohio voters, including Domino's pizza worker Christopher Barkley , claimed yesterday that they were hounded by the community-activist group ACORN to register to vote several times, even though they made it clear they'd already signed up.

Barkley estimated he'd registered to vote "10 to 15" times after canvassers for ACORN, whose political wing has endorsed Barack Obama, relentlessly pursued him and others.

Claims such as his have sparked election officials to probe ACORN.

"I kept getting approached by folks who asked me to register," Barkley said. "They'd ask me if I was registered. I'd say yes, and they'd ask me to do it [register] again.

"Some of them were getting paid to collect names. That was their sob story, and I bought it," he said.

Barkley is one of at least three people who have been subpoenaed by the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections as part of a wider inquiry into possible voter fraud by ACORN. The group seeks to register low-income voters, who skew overwhelmingly Democratic.

"You can tell them you're registered as many times as you want - they do not care," said Lateala Goins, 21, who was subpoenaed.

"They will follow you to the buses, they will follow you home, it does not matter," she told The Post.

She added that she never put down an address on any of the registration forms, just her name.

A third subpoenaed voter, Freddie Johnson, 19, filled out registration cards 72 times over 18 months, officials said.

"It feeds the public perception that there could be [fraud], and that makes the pillars fall down," said local Board of Elections President Jeff Hastings.

Registering under a fake name is illegal. But officials usually catch multiple registrations and toss them.

The major risk of fraud growing out of mass canvassing involves the possibility of ineligible voters filing absentee ballots, and thus avoiding checks at polling places, said Republican National Committee chief counsel Sean Cairncross.

The subpoenas come as Republicans have ramped up criticism of ACORN. Officials in Nevada raided ACORN's Las Vegas office Tuesday, accusing the group of signing people up multiple times - in some cases under phony names, like those of Dallas Cowboys.

ACORN's Cleveland spokesman, Kris Harsh, said his group collected 100,000 voter-registration cards; only about 50 were questionable, he claimed.

As for workers, "We watch them like a hawk," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 07:56 AM

"If they don't get fixed, we can never be confident that the winner actually was the winner ( by votes)."

Been there --- Done that -- Welcome to Shrub World


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM

"I doubt that other local ACORN offices have been engaging in the same kind of fraud as that Neveda group appantely has."


Two Ohio voters, including Domino's pizza worker Christopher Barkley , claimed yesterday that they were hounded by the community-activist group ACORN to register to vote several times, even though they made it clear they'd already signed up.




Officials in Missouri, a hard-fought jewel in the presidential race, are sifting through possibly hundreds of questionable or duplicate voter-registration forms submitted by an advocacy group that has been accused of election fraud in other states.

Charlene Davis, co-director of the election board in Jackson County, where Kansas City is, said the fraudulent registration forms came from the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN. She said they were bogging down work Wednesday, the final day Missourians could register to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 09:06 AM

Is ACORN still on the agenda to receive a big chunk of the bail-out money?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:20 PM

It appears that some states are purging voter lists illegally.

Full story   here.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:28 PM

Truth be told bearded bruce has a childhood association with a democrat that exceeds coming from republican parents.

It could have been something like... well I won't say because speculating about deep dark humilliating secrets just wouldn't be proper.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:30 PM

The Times said voters appear to have been purged by mistake and not because of any intentional violations by election officials or coordinated efforts by any party.

States have been trying to follow the Help America Vote Act of 2002 by removing the names of voters who should no longer be listed. But for every voter added to the rolls in the past two months in some states, election officials have removed two, a review of the records shows.

The newspaper said it identified apparent problems in Colorado, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, Nevada and North Carolina. It says some states are improperly using Social Security data to verify new voters' registration applications, and others may have broken rules that govern removing voters from the rolls within 90 days of a federal election.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:32 PM

Growing up in Montgomery County will warp anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:42 PM

If any group..including ACORN, is engaging in fraud, they should be stopped and prosecuted! If the stories about ACORN are accurate, they are pretty blatant about it, and can only flood registration rolls with lots of duplicates in hopes some will not be caught.
   More insidious is what seems to be happening in the link curmudgeon posted, where OFFICIALS are playing fast & loose with the rules. Fake registrations like ACORN submits, may be caught and thrown out, while if rolls are purged of legal voters, it may be impossible to correct the error by election day.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM

and, I repeat....I want cheating stopped whether Republicans OR Democrats are doing it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:48 AM

Question here is whether it was Obama's campaign, ACORN, or another Obama-leaning group who endorsed or sponsored the behavior cited in BB's opening article. Article in the WSJ establishes that such an assertion is hogwash--these are rogue actors.    I'll give you quotes when I get back from work.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:01 AM

Ron,

Which assertion? I hear many claims that McCain is responsible for anything done by his advocates, regardless of whether he has any input or control. So you want to have a different set of rules for Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:03 AM

Ron,

Which assertion? I hear many claims that McCain is responsible for anything done by his advocates, regardless of whether he has any input or control. So you want to have a different set of rules for Obama?


It looks to me like some here want affirmative action in order to let Obama get elected.- special preference to make up for past injustice. If so, fine - but don't pretend that you are applying the same rules to both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:17 AM

And a few more states... Indiana, Nevada, Ohio, Missouri




Thousands of voter registration forms faked, officials say

Story Highlights
Liberal activist group filed 2,000 fraudulent voter forms, Indiana officials say

They included names of the dead and Jimmy Johns, a restaurant

Elections Board in northern Indiana has stopped processing 5,000 forms

From Drew Griffin and Kathleen Johnston
CNN Special Investigations Unit
   
CROWN POINT, Indiana (CNN) -- More than 2,000 voter registration forms filed in northern Indiana's Lake County by a liberal activist group this week have turned out to be bogus, election officials said Thursday.

The group -- the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN -- already faces allegations of filing fraudulent voter registrations in Nevada and faces investigations in other states.

And in Lake County, home to the long-depressed steel town of Gary, the bipartisan Elections Board has stopped processing a stack of about 5,000 applications delivered just before the October 6 registration deadline after the first 2,100 turned out to be phony.

"All the signatures looked exactly the same," Ruthann Hoagland, a Republican on the board. "Everything on the card filled out looks exactly the same."

The forms included registrations submitted in the names of the dead -- and in one case, the name of a fast-food restaurant, Jimmy Johns. Sally LaSota, a Democrat on the board, called the forms fraudulent and said whoever filed them broke the law. Watch how dead people are turning up on voter registration forms »

"ACORN, with its intent, perhaps was good in the beginning, but went awry somewhere," LaSota said.

Over the past four years, a dozen states have investigated complaints of fraudulent registrations filed by ACORN. On Tuesday, Nevada authorities raided an ACORN office in Las Vegas, Nevada, where workers are accused of registering members of the Dallas Cowboys football team. And the group has become the target of Republican attacks on voter fraud, a perennial GOP issue.

A subsidiary of the group was paid $800,000 by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama's campaign to register voters for the 2008 primaries, and ACORN's political wing endorsed Obama back in February. But Obama's campaign told CNN that it "is committed to protecting the integrity of the voting process," and said it has not worked with ACORN during the general election.

Brian Mellor, an ACORN attorney in Boston, said the group has its own quality-control process and has fired workers in the past -- including workers in Gary. But he said allegations that his organization committed fraud is a government attempt to keep people disenfranchised. Watch more about this investigation »

"We believe their purpose is to attack ACORN and suppress votes," Mellor said. "We believe that by attacking ACORN, they are going to discourage people that have registered to vote with ACORN from voting."

CNN was unable to reach ACORN officials in Gary and in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where the group's Indiana operation is based. Offices in both cities were empty when reporters visited.

Lake County elections officials have set aside all 5,000 of the ACORN-submitted applications in what Hoagland called the "fake pile" for later review. But she said every one will be reviewed before the election to make sure no legitimate voters are skipped.


There has been no evidence of voter fraud yet, because voters have yet to go to the polls. But elections officials say they will be sending their information to prosecutors, who will determine whether any investigation will begin.

"We have no idea what the motive behind it is," she said. "It's just overwhelming to us."

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:59 AM

Looks like the system worked in this case. Hopefully it will also work for all of the people whose registrations have been challenged illegally.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:49 AM

Elections officials deny illegally purging voters

Fri Oct 10, 12:22 AM ET



NEW YORK - A newspaper report Thursday said tens of thousands of eligible voters have been removed from rolls or blocked from registering in at least six swing states. Election officials lined up to defend their registration procedures and said they had done nothing wrong.

The New York Times based its findings on reviews of state records and Social Security data, and said it had identified apparent problems in Colorado, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, Nevada and North Carolina.

Two states had purged voters, the Times said. Ohio and three other states were cited only for sending several requests for voter registration verifications to the Social Security Administration.

The Times said voters appear to have been purged by mistake and not because of any intentional violations by election officials or coordinated efforts by any party. It says that some states are improperly using Social Security data to verify new voters' registration applications, and that others might have broken rules that govern removing voters from the rolls within 90 days of a federal election.

Elections officials in several states disputed that any voters were illegally removed from rolls. Michigan elections director Chris Thomas said the state removed only people who have died, notified authorities of a move or who were declared unfit to vote, which is well within the parameters of the law. Thomas said only 11,000 voters were removed from Michigan rolls in August — not 33,000, the figure cited in the report.

"There is no illegal purging going on," Thomas told The Associated Press on Thursday.

The Times stood by its story. Spokeswoman Catherine Mathis said the newspaper's reporting was based on voter registration data provided by the states themselves, and in Michigan's case compared an Aug. 5 snapshot of registered voters with a Sept. 5 snapshot.

She said the Times explained its methodology to Thomas on Thursday, "and he said he could not explain the discrepancy between our figures and Michigan's official numbers."

States have been trying to follow the Help America Vote Act of 2002 by removing the names of voters who should no longer be listed. But for every voter added to the rolls in the past two months in some states, election officials have removed two, the Times' review of the records found.

States appear to have violated federal law in one of two ways, according to the newspaper report. Some are removing voters from the rolls within 90 days of a federal election, which is not allowed except when voters die, notify the authorities that they have moved out of state or have been declared unfit to vote, The Times said.

And some of the states are improperly using Social Security data to verify registration applications for new voters, the newspaper reported.

Under the Help America Vote Act, many states have an agreement with the Social Security Administration requiring them to submit the last four digits of a new voter's Social Security number for verification if the person does not have a valid state-issued ID, such as a license.

Colorado said it would review its practices of "canceling" voters who had moved, died or were deemed otherwise ineligible. Secretary of State Mike Coffman said he asked lawyers to determine if the state's protocols violated a federal ban on "systematic" purging close to an election, but said because people, not computers, were doing the reviews, he believed they were sound. He said nearly 2,500 voters may be restored if the procedure is found to have violated the law.

Last week, amid concerns about an uptick in the number of requests for verification, Social Security Commissioner Michael Astrue sent a letter to officials in Alabama, Georgia, Indiana, Nevada, North Carolina and Ohio seeking to verify that the checks were run only on new voters who don't have acceptable identification. States have said the increase in checks is due partly to a stream of new voters coming in to register.

Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner's office released a copy of the letter in which Astrue notes that his agency had received more than 740,000 requests for verification from Ohio since Oct. 1, 2007.

"Such a volume appears to be much greater than one would expect, given that states of comparable or larger populations have a significantly lower number of verification requests," the letter said.

Brunner said Tuesday that roughly 666,000 new voters had registered in Ohio since the start of 2008.

Late Thursday, a federal judge ordered Brunner to not only verify the identity of newly registered voters in accordance with the Help America Vote Act, but to also establish a process by which Ohio's 88 county election boards can access the information.

Brunner has been doing the verification, but has not established that process. She said the Ohio attorney general's office is filing an immediate appeal of the judge's order.

The ruling came in a lawsuit filed by the Ohio Republican Party against Brunner, a Democrat.

In Georgia, federal officials say some 2 million checks have been completed, but only 406,000 new voters were registered. The Department of Justice has questioned the checks, and state officials say they are trying to determine how federal authorities arrived at that figure.

North Carolina elections watchdog Bob Hall, who heads the advocacy group Democracy North Carolina, defended the state's elections board and called the Times story "reprehensible."

Hall said he has found that many registration forms are incomplete or partly illegible and that many prospective voters provide Social Security numbers instead of driver's licenses. Because of that, he said it's not surprising that the state would need to run so many verifications.

Indiana also defended its procedures. "Using all available appropriate technology is our best way to combat voter fraud that we know exists in this state and across the country," Secretary of State Todd Rokita said in a statement Thursday.

Nevada Secretary of State Ross Miller issued a statement calling the Times report misleading.

"I want to assure Nevadans that any suggestion that eligible voters will be denied their right to participate in this election on Nov. 4 is false," he said.

If voters were wrongfully removed from rolls, they could show up on Election Day and be challenged by political party officials or election workers. Any discrepancy could disproportionately affect Democrats, who have registered voters more aggressively.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:18 PM

If you pay people on a basis of numbers registered that's inviting fraud. There are some situations where treating everything as a marketable commodity just doesn't work.

Subject: RE: BS: Would YOU be happy if Rep. did this?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:24 PM

The states are denying illegal purging, and ACORN denies illegally registering people. We shall see what we shall see.