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BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
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Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 04 Apr 09 - 11:55 PM MAX - BigMick - Joe Offer - Pene
Is there any wonder WHY the MC ? ? ? is still alive today.
Throw a "straight line" across the world and there is ALWAYS a comic to respond.
In the past decade the Mudcat has given me greater pleasure/information/connection/enjoymenet through threads like these (excepting 2 of the vinial and 3 of the cardinal) than ANY other place on the internet.
Sincerely,
Do not cancel me out this weekend ... I will soon be gone for the rest of April |
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Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Pierre Le Chapeau Date: 05 Apr 09 - 09:06 AM KYN Excellent News thank you I,ll wait till October no problem. I will be in touch soon working at present. Thanks again. |
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Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: GUEST,hg Date: 05 Apr 09 - 09:30 PM Where are you going garg? Are you busking in europe? What country? |
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Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Pierre Le Chapeau Date: 27 Apr 09 - 02:58 PM KYN why did you not follow my threads. I ment what I said but La Gear got involved and told management at the Chislehurst mines That I was planning to break into the caves and his blown up a right Wasp nest. . And to boot you have banned me from your site. Has if I would take you kent historical lot on a tour of the caves if I had to break in? Rod La Gear a Meddling old F..t He was a bloke I used to respect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Richard Bridge Date: 27 Apr 09 - 07:35 PM Er...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Pierre Le Chapeau Date: 28 Apr 09 - 03:10 AM Never mind the above Richard. The message is intended for the person/s its titled too. I will too stick to folk session in future.l To hell with Caves, Mines, and Tunnels. Some discussion sites are more trouble then they are worth using and twisting the info you give them. Im very peeved off with KYN and fellow sillyarses . I better stop now before I get thrown off of Mudcat has well. Regards Piierre |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Bat Goddess Date: 28 Apr 09 - 09:42 PM This is an interesting thread and I want to explore the above info more carefully when I have a bit of time, but I'd like to point out that I first looked into the thread because I wanted to know WHAT Rochester -- it's a common name across the planet. As a kid I spend time with cousins in Rochester, Minnesota and now a neighboring town (no tunnels, alas) is Rochester, New Hampshire. Linn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Pierre Le Chapeau Date: 29 Apr 09 - 01:49 AM Hi Bat Goddess. Rochester is a town in The South East of England on the Banks of the River Medway. It has it own Medieval Castle and Cathedral. Its also hosts the Rochester Sweeps festival every year which is the largest open folk street festival in Europe. Well worth a Visit if you ever cross the pond. Do Bat Goddesses hang upside down? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Pierre Le Chapeau Date: 29 Apr 09 - 02:05 AM Heres a picture of the 0Rochester Castle and River Medway I hope it works. punkyrennie.wordwww.press.com/.../ or wwwoldpicture,com/europe/rochester-castle-E |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Pierre Le Chapeau Date: 29 Apr 09 - 02:07 AM Try Rochester castle and cathedral england on google Bat Goddess there is loads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Rafflesbear Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:23 PM Rochester (UK) Tunnels on YouTube |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Ebbie Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM How difficult could it be to run a string of lights in there? shudder |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Rafflesbear Date: 19 Jun 09 - 06:24 PM Three things come together here to make it fascinating 1 The tunnels themselves 2 The dereliction and the history it represents 3 The fact that it is forbidden territory It's a bit like a shipwreck, you know it's there, you can get tantalising glimpses of it but it is the fact that it is inaccessible that preserves the sense of history in a way that bringing it to the surface and displaying it can't achieve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: GUEST,Alan Smith Date: 21 Aug 09 - 09:39 AM Hello. I live in Wainscott. I was recently gardening when I uncovered a manhole with grass growing over it. I investigated and there is a square shaft that goes approximately 2 feet down. It then opens into a bell-shaped chamber with perfectly smooth concrete walls. It is approximately 5 feet in diameter. The floor is just mud and over the years some rubbish has been put down there. I dug down approximately 2 foot but it's just more mud with various layers of rubbish, ie tiles and broken bricks. Does anyone have any idea what this could be? There are nu rungs or ladders and no other holes are markings in the concrete walls. I am tempted to just keep digging but I could do this for a long time! Our house was built in the fifties and we have lived there for around 6 years. What could this be??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Richard Bridge Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:37 AM Are you anywhere near the line of the railway tunnel from Higham to Strood? If so it could be connected to those workings in some way. Can you date the manhole cover? Did it have a builder's name on? The nature of the concrete might give a clue to the date. Were there older buildings before the 50s houses were erected? Are the tiles and bricks like your house or different (and are the remnants large enough to date)? If you are anywhere near the old mill there could be a link to that. If you are near the old brickfield there could be a link to that - or if you are near the old vicarage (or church) it might have been an icehouse for the vicar's drinks parties. Wainscott is quite diverse in character. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: GUEST,Alan Smith Date: 21 Aug 09 - 03:23 PM I am just over the other side of Frindsbury to the railway tunnel. I will take a look at the manhole cover tomorrow and try to retrieve some broken bricks/tiles to see if there's any writing on them. Unfortunately I have no idea about the age of buildings prior to our house... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Richard Bridge Date: 21 Aug 09 - 06:16 PM You can roughly date bricks by dimensions. We all know the shape of modern bricks. Old ones are less tall. But of course, it could be an old hole with subsequent rubble. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Penny S. Date: 22 Aug 09 - 08:54 AM Should be a lower entrance for an icehouse, as well as a top access for the ice. Is there a lake nearby as a source for ice? Cesspit? Septic Tank? Construction to do with stop line during WWII? I note nearness to RE. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Paul Burke Date: 22 Aug 09 - 02:58 PM Soundsd like something to do with sewage. But waht glorious names down there- Wainscott is jsut by Fridsbury Extra! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: GUEST,Alan Smith Date: 23 Aug 09 - 02:50 PM I had a quick peek down there again today. Firstly, the cover is solid iron, perfectlt square (as opposed to rectangular), weighs an absolute ton and has no markings on it. Inside the hole, there are no markings at all on the concrete walls. I had a rummage through some of the bricks and tiles that I found but none had any markings on them and I strongly suspect that they consist of general rubble, disposed of by a previous owner perhaps. I had a look at the plans for my house today but there is no mention of any underground chamber. We are not that far from the River Medway but I think it highly unlikely that this is an ice chamber. It seems at the moment that I'm only going to discover anything by digging deeper. It's not wet down there, just very cool. The soil seems to have a lot of clay in it. This is really puzzling me now and even a search on Goolge hasn't helped! Looking at the smoothness of the walls, I'd guess that this chamber was pre fabricated and buried under the ground. Just to clarify, there are no holes or other entrances in this chamber, leading me to suspect that it has nothing to do with drainage/sewers. Does anyone know if this possibly sounds like a well? I dismissed this theory owing to the domed roof on the inside and lack of any real moisture! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Penny S. Date: 23 Aug 09 - 03:05 PM A cesspit wouldn't have another exit - but if used, there would be traces. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Richard Bridge Date: 23 Aug 09 - 04:26 PM That is sounding VERY like an inspection chamber - not necessarly to a foul sewer, but to a culverted stream - later abandoned and subsequently filled with rubbish. Are you on a line that might once have had a stream? If you'd like to join and PM me the exact location it might help me - I'm fairly local, in Lower Stoke, formerly of Higham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Ebbie Date: 23 Aug 09 - 04:41 PM How fascinating, Alan Smith. I have a question: You say the concrete is "smooth", in other words, mixed and troweled? It is not rock bound by mortar? Could it have anything to do with WWII? Did the UK create bomb shelters? How about a repository for valuables? How large is the chamber? What are the dimensions? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Penny S. Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:50 AM I am reminded of a TimeTeam investigation of the Shooters Hill stop line from WWII, where there was a fougasse set up at the top of the hill to fire burning petrol down the hill on enemy tanks. I don't know what the reservoir for the petrol was like. I am wondering if this could be a tank for such a thing. I don't know the line of the stop line at the Medway - I assume there was one. And it was near the Engineers -sorry, repeating myself. See if Chattenden has any idea? Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: GUEST,Alan Smith Date: 24 Aug 09 - 12:30 PM Richard, my house is parallel to and is just behind Wainscott Road. I have read before that there are several streams in the area. There is no evidence to suggest that this was once a cesspit. The concrete is perfectly smooth ie no pebbles or rocks in it. We would have had bomb shelters but the dimensions are just too small for this to be a possibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Ebbie Date: 24 Aug 09 - 03:37 PM My thought was that one could date the concrete by the method used but I just researched the history of concrete. I had no idea that 'modern' concrete was so old. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 Aug 09 - 04:54 PM Hi Alan. You are right there are no obvious topographical features between Holly and Wainscott and I imagine that storm water drains towards the bottom of CHattenden Hill rahter than towards the Medway. There is also no obvious line of willow trees. So I think storm water channel is out. You are much too far from the brickyard for that to be relevant. Likewise you are much too far from the railway (formerly canal) tunnel, and too far from the church. I don't think there ever was a grand old house in that patch, either. If it was anything to do with Victorian era foul drains it would be on the east side of Wainscott Road, near the terraces there (and Hills Motors). It's too low lying to be for incendiary materials for a stop line (and an earth floor would have been no good for that purpose). I am, so far, baffled. Is there a local historical society? I know not all of the records of the old Strood Rural District Council survived the creation of the Medway council (and turning the old Strood Rural council offices into an old folks' home). Are there any church and parish records? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Penny S. Date: 24 Aug 09 - 07:04 PM Richard, I was assuming Alan hadn't reached the bottom yet, so the nature of the floor was still moot. It's a bit odd, isn't it. It's not the right shape for a left behind hidey hole from the war. I'll be interested to see what turns up in the end. Is there a parish newsletter that Alan could use to ask for any local info? Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: GUEST,Alan Smith Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:11 PM At least I'm not the only one confused by this! I've dug out and studied the plans for sewage to our house and nothing goes anywhere near where the chamber is. However, the plans also fail to show a manhole cover behind my house for the sewers (which I know for a fact is there) and a disclaimer at the bottom of the plan basically says "these may be inaacurate but we (the water board) cannot be held responsible". All in all, it was useless. Penny, you are quite right- I have yet to reach the bottom. There is a fair bit of earth to shift (my wife won't have anything to do with the hole so I'm on my own) so it is just a case of having the time to do such a thing. I have already discovered that the earth goes down at least another 2 feet. I suspect there must be a good ton of earth. Richard, I will try to find out from the local parish some history. I know from brief research that Wainscott has quite a varied history to it. Keep those ideas coming!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:42 PM There is a Higham historical society that is quite effective - and this month they are doing Chalk village, so maybe in due course they could look over to Wainscott. I think there is a Strood historical society too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Penny S. Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:53 AM And I wouldn't think it would be a well. My sister has an old well on her property, and it was mentioned in deeds - indeed, the neighbours had an easement for access to it for water. Not a good idea, since when the mains were attached, it was converted into a cess pit. Also, a well would need a way for water to enter, and would not be so wide. It sounds quite modern, of a time when a borehole would be more likely. Does the soil look as though it was all put down there at the same time? And does there appear to be anywhere in the garden where the waste that is not in the chamber could be? (Irrelevant to what it is, perhaps, but contributing to the overall picture.) Does the state of the top look as though it was used at all - is it worn? Can't be someone's nuclear bunker - too small! Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Richard Bridge Date: 26 Aug 09 - 04:22 PM I had already considered and discarded WWII bomb shelter. Defintely not a well: it would have been capped off with concrete. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Penny S. Date: 26 Aug 09 - 04:40 PM I thought - briefly - of a post war nuclear shelter constructed by someone for personal use to their own design. I agree it doesn't work as a WWII one. (Nearly sent this off with three Is.) My sister's well has concrete over the top, but I wouldn't exactly call it capped. It's more of a concrete manhole cover. I'm intrigued, and I've run out of ideas. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: katlaughing Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:26 PM Yes, I'd thought of a 1950s style bunker, but they usually were much larger, over here at least. Following along in fascination; it feels as though Inspector Morse should happen along. Of course there'd have to be a body for him to bother with it. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Ebbie Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:58 PM Ah ha! Is it a mausoleum for extremely short people? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Richard Bridge Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:38 AM It's a hobbithole! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: katlaughing Date: 27 Aug 09 - 10:50 AM Perhaps the Travel-O-City Gnome vacations there? Only place he can get away from adoring fans? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Ebbie Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:30 PM You say, Alan Smith, that it is five feet in diameter. Does that mean that it's perfectly square? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Billy Weeks Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:45 PM From its shape this is almost certainly a dene hole Theye are not all that uncommon in areas with chalk near the surface. Some are quite ancient, but they were dug well into the nineteenth century and possibly even the twentieth century, to extract soft, pure chalk for spreading on the land. The bell shape is a natural enough form, since you don't want to dig a big hole until you get down to the layer you want. Traditions about dene holes are numerous (e.g. they were dug by primitive man - or as hidey holes from invasions by the Danes - see Wikipedia), but rumour and invention always gather around things of unrecorded origin. Unrecorded because everyone in agriculture at the time knew what they were and no one else ever took an interest in what the horny-handed were doing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Billy Weeks Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:51 PM Any filling in the hole is likely to be modern, as of course, is the iron cover, put there almost certainly for safety reasons after discovery of the hole. If the iron cover has a cast-in maker's name, you can at least date that within a decade or two. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Ebbie Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:55 PM That doesn't seem to address or explain the concrete siding, Billy Weeks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester, From: Penny S. Date: 27 Aug 09 - 04:23 PM I hadn't mentioned deneholes because of the concrete - but if it was going down through something like Thanet Sand, someone could have made it safe that way. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK) From: Ebbie Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:35 PM Are not all deneholes made of chalk? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK) From: Pierre Le Chapeau Date: 28 Aug 09 - 01:26 AM Hi folks I worked in Chalk mines for years. The fact no trace on maps can locate or tell you what you have discovered is interesting and gives me the impression that the stucture maybe..................? ww1 or ww2. Ebbie Deneholes are made of Chalk the word come from the word Dane. Alan smith. Its not a Denehole. If you want to get to the bottom of this then arrange a date and I will come down we can meet up. And get to the bottom of it. I have no fear of the unknown when it comes to being underground but caution is very important, if one values there life. We can all sit here till the Cows come home debating what it might Be. Get down there and find out or if you want someone who is used to such Adventure. I UP FOR IT LIKE BIG TIME.. PM ME IF YOU ARE INTERESTED. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK) From: Penny S. Date: 28 Aug 09 - 01:32 PM What is the connection between the square access tube and the main cylinder like? It won't help me work out what it could be, but my mind is getting irritated that it cannot visualise that bit. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK) From: Penny S. Date: 28 Aug 09 - 02:13 PM I had a look in my two books on Underground and Subterranean Britain, and then realised I once had a book on Underground Kent. Don't know where it is - it may be in a box waiting for the move, or it may be given to a friend. However, here's a possibly useful site. Kent Moles Penny - looking for more |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK) From: Penny S. Date: 28 Aug 09 - 02:30 PM A piece from KURG's page on defensive works. "World War I This marked a change in the pattern of warfare since the fighting took place in the trenches of France and Belgium, with no requirement for new fortifications in Britain. It did bring in a new development, however, whereby men of the Royal Engineers began to tunnel under the enemy trenches to lay explosive charges, hence the derivation of the word 'mine'. The base depot of the Royal Engineers was at Chatham and the area was used to experiment with new techniques of mining, since the local sand and chalk was almost identical to conditions at the Front. Very few of these trial mines were recorded at the time and, although it is likely that many collapsed subsequently, some still turn up in surprising places. The latest example was discovered following a collapse in a Gillingham back garden in 1988." The also have a page offering help. Here's links to an exploration in Gravesend which looks a bit similar - the word soakaway pops up - no-one's mentioned that yet. Pictures of a hole Or follow links to recent projects, Gravesend Hole. Most pages operate out of the same address. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK) From: Penny S. Date: 28 Aug 09 - 02:41 PM The site does not seem to be very up-to-date. Here's an extract from the cesspit section. "A common practice in parts of Kent was to knock the bottom completely out of cesspits and this would allow more to drain away into the chalk. Although this meant that they didn't need to be emptied so often, it was rather shortsighted since wells took water from the same chalk! Water from the chalk of the Medway area is still high in nitrate content for this reason. Archaeological excavation of a cesspit is not everyone's choice but analysis of the soil content can yield interesting insights into the diets of people using it. Many cesspits would have been filled in when abandoned but some were merely covered over with a slab or wooden cover. Examples open up from time to time but they are rarely deep enough to present a danger. In some places, however, houses adapted abandoned deneholes as cesspits that were ideal since the underground space meant that they never needed emptying. The top part of the shaft was lined with bricks and arched over at the top, sometimes with a small access hole. Earthenware pipes directed the sewage into the shaft and this has caused problems in the past where the brick lining has been eroded and fallen away." Also water cisterns. "Another underground feature found in bigger houses was the water cistern. This was a large brick-lined chamber that was made watertight and arched over with a small access hole. Rainwater from the roof was directed into the cistern where it could be stored for future use, being softer than water drawn from a well in the chalk. Sometimes a pipe connected the cistern to a hand pump in the kitchen. Like cesspits, a number of water cisterns were merely slabbed over when abandoned but the workmanship often means that the brickwork is still sound." Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK) From: Penny S. Date: 28 Aug 09 - 03:33 PM Here's another group, with a new website. Underground Kent I'm not quite sure by what stretch of imagination a seafort can be called underground. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK) From: Richard Bridge Date: 28 Aug 09 - 06:34 PM 100, thank you |
