BS: Don't ask don't tell

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: olddude
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 10:49 AM

Nothing surprises me, how long did it take for women to be accepted in roles other than passing out donuts. Rap said it best.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 12:59 PM

No surprises: McCain Calls Pentagon's 'Don't Ask' Study Flawed (NPR).

"I am not saying this law should never change. I am simply saying that it may be premature to make such a change at this time and in this manner," the Arizona Republican told Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Joint Chiefs Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen at a Senate hearing Thursday.

What manner would he prefer? Apparently that the courts mandate an overnight change.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 01:04 PM

McCain Questions Pentagon on Repeal of Gay Ban (NY Times)

As mentioned in the thread above, would the services have been integrated if the troops had been polled on the topic?

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: saulgoldie
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 02:46 PM

Look, gays, lesbians, bi, and transgender folks are all around you. They are in the armed forces in the trenches with you, and higher up in rank with stars, bars, eagles, and lavish parties. (Oooo, I'd LOVE to be at some of those parties!) They serve you coffee at the coffee bar, they care for your children at the daycare, they teach them in schools, they comfort you in your time of need (in various
capacities), they make public policy as elected officials, they make music for your entertainment, they dance for your entertainment, they attend to your needs in hospital wards, and they do open-heart surgery on you. The only difference between the way things are now and the way things would be if they were "out" is that they would not have to cower in fear of being beaten up, shunned, or held up for blackmail.

The people who oppose "outness" are homophobes, nothing more and nothing less. "Homophobe" is a factual term. It is not a casually tossed about slur, like calling everyone you don't agree with a "nazi." It is not "insane." It is factual. Anyone who is threatened by someone loving someone else in a homosexual way is, on some level afraid of their own sexuality, and whether they might themselves be leaning that way. Furthermore, homophobia, unlike homosexuality, is a disease that can be cured.

One of the very saddest but ultimately happy people I have ever known was a man who was chronically physically ill, depressed, and suicidal. When he finally came out, all of that vanished, and he is now so happy and joyous that it makes ME sick, as someone with more generalized depression. But I celebrate for him every time I hear a discussion about homosexuality.

OTOH, on of the very angriest men I have ever known was someone who everyone around him KNEW that he was closeted and too terrified to come out even to himself because he was such a rabid homophobe, justifying it with cherry-picked "evidence" from religious books of his CHOOSING. I cry inside for him every time I hear a discussion about homosexuality. To wit, notice the number of former virulent homophobes in the Republican party who have endorsed their party's position (position!) on gays in society who have finally come out, and then dropped from sight, curiously enough.

I don't know exactly what McCain's problem is. But it is a problem. That old, straight ahead "maverick" is long dead. And the "new McCain" is sad to watch as he writhes with all his self-contradictions.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 03:08 PM

Two Marines in a hole. Shells exploding, bullets cracking overhead, their feet in mud and their own excrement. One turns to the other and says, "You know, you have the most lovely eyes...."

Two women in a field hospital, in triage, deciding who among the incoming wounded gets immediate medical care, who can wait, and who won't make it no matter what. They're covered in blood and gore. "Say Flo," says one, "I'll bet you'd look great in leather."

C'mon and lets get serious. If I (a former infantryman) am in a tough spot, I want someone I can depend upon and I don't care if he or she is a coprophiliac or gets kicks from bothering chickens.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 05:07 PM

a couple of cartoonists' take on it

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 06:33 PM

Fortunately, not everyone's falling in line behind McCain: Key Senators Appear Open To Ending 'Don't Ask' (NPR):

... at least two key committee Republicans whom Democrats have seen as potential votes for repeal — Susan Collins of Maine and Scott Brown of Massachusetts — appeared open to supporting an end to the ban. So did Sen. Jim Webb, the only committee Democrat who voted against repeal when the measure was added to the defense bill earlier this year.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 08:31 PM

A US Judge has allegedly come out with the comments and it was seen by quite a few before some sections were removed. If the reports are true - and an internet search just revealed several threads on his proposal - then it seems beyond belief that such suggestions should be tolerated.

It is sickening on several fronts, not least about the thought that by raping a gay female with a penis it could in some way 'cure' her (lesbianism is not a disease), that it is suggested that men within the army (who are supposed to have honour) would want anything to do with such a crime, that a judge could even come close to suggesting such a heinous act, and that in free speech his comments could be found acceptable.

The whole idea that all a gay woman needs is a decent penis and she will 'turn' is not new. It has been put around for as long as lesbians have been known. It would be complete and utter silliness were it not that is was believed by so many. That aside, who could in any way consider rape to be a way in which a 'cure' could be made?

What of his comments too about soldiers with "lithe naked bodies"? It's quite amazing that he should describe them as such and this is not usual language from your average man is it?

Are gay people such a threat to others that comments like those above will be and can be tolertaed by a voting public? Would such an idea win or lose votes in the US? I well imagine if such a thing were said by a Judge in the UK there really would be outcry and action from 'the powers that be' and in the least I suspect they would lose their job.

Is it me or does anyone else find the above totally shockinmg and unacceptable? I admit to reading it a couple of times to make sure I did not get it wrong. I had it right first time and have to say I was quite sickened by it. My greatest hope is that it is totally wrong and he has been misquoted or someone has deliberately posted it wrong. On first glance this does not seem to be the case so if it is true.... may heaven help us all from judiciary with such views

Don't ask... don't tell

You can die for us but you must not have any sexuality we do not agree with. You can defend our laws and die for us but....

Wait a minute. I thought rape was against the law?

:(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 10:13 PM

Sickening and frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:05 PM

McCain had a serious senior moment today when he said sic
"I served in the military, I know better!, Gates never served in the military and therefore doesn't know what he's talking about!"

(I think he is really losing it due to stage 1 Alzheimers)


Not only did General Gates serve, he served condordently with McCain in active duty and beyond.


Worse than that McCain said" So what you have all the studies I asked for. You never asked the service men what they want done about dADT.

The Admiral of the navy repsponded, "Anyone in the military knows that the military has never put out a referendum on policy or orders to its servicemen and women. Can you imagine if we asked soldiers if they felt like they might want to take hill 51, or when they would like to go on leave?

To which McCain replied "Who took my tapioca pudding, I set it down right here and now its gone."

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 12:39 AM

I cleaned for a very nice old man, who had served in the Second World War. I dusted his Air Medal every other Saturday. He was pleasant, well educated, and gay as a three dollar bill. My (male) housemate took over for me one day. The old man, who, generally left me alone, felt a need to supervise poor Don as he did the kitchen floor. Don was more amused than anything.
The point is, this gent lied about his sexual orientation to serve his country.
Apparently a great many gay men did, and still do.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 07:30 AM

In the interests of accurate data, Mr. Gates served two years in the Air Force, 1967-1969, and rose to the exalted rank of lieutenant. He spent most of his government career as a spook.

The "judge" mentioned above is one Joe Rehyansky, who is a part-time county magistrate in Tennessee. This is, in the US, very different from a judge.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,mauvepink
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 05:50 AM

Thanks art. I did not realise there was such a difference between the term Judge in the US compared to the UK. Even so. I suspect he would now be looking for a job had he said it in the UK!

One of the big things about DADT is that STI's can go untreated in fear of being 'outed' by medical staff within the forces if certain STI's are found that could generally only be transmitted by a certain act. It still seems incredulous that grown men and women fighting for their country in the so-called 'free world' can be treated in such a way.

These people are not only asked to be brave and heroic, as all hetrosexuals are, but also show great bravery in living the way they do in the fear they are under of being discovered.

In the UK the problem does not arise. If you do your job then that is all the armed forces are interested in (on paper anyway). It has not always been the case I know but at least it is a step in the right direction.

Thanks for 'correcting' my ignorance in any case

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: kendall
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 02:14 PM

Why do right wingers spend so much time and energy worrying about how other people express their love?

Funny you should ask, The answer, as I see it, is, FEAR. All hatred is based in fear. Those meatheads who hate anything that is different from them are scared that they may have homo tendencies and they over compensate for it.

Imagine a big tough Marine who has to stand there and watch a gay guy do the same job is he does and just as well! What does that say about the difficulty of his job?

"I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses." (Mrs. Campbell)

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,seth in Olympia
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:10 PM

I sure met a lot of gay men in the U.S. Air Force between 1966-70-some were enlisted as I was as a way of avoiding a combat role in Viet-Nam, others were serious lifer, soldier, warrior types-some supervised me and some I supervised and others I just knew or knew about. Great education for me. I met many more gay ex-marines and rangers when I lived in Oakland in Berkeley in the 1970's

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: gnu
Date: 04 Dec 10 - 07:21 PM

k... ""I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the street and frighten the horses." (Mrs. Campbell)"

Takes a BIG Marine to frighten a horse! >;-)

Sorry... I had to. It's in my statement of duties and qualifications as an understudy.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM

House passes repeal of 'don't ask, don't tell'

By The Associated Press
Wednesday, December 15th, 2010 -- 5:39 pm

The House voted Wednesday to repeal the "don't ask, don't tell policy that for 17 years has forced gays desiring to serve in the military to conceal their sexual identity. The 250-175 vote propels the issue to the Senate for what could be the last chance for now to end the 1993 law that forbids recruiters from asking about sexual orientation while prohibiting soldiers from acknowledging that they are gay.

It's "the only law in the country that requires people to be dishonest or be fired if they choose to be honest," said Rep. Jared Polis, D-Colo.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/house-passes-repeal-dont-tell/

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:07 AM

Land of the free, they call it. Someday, maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:31 PM

"Now is the time for us to act," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, and "close the door on a fundamental unfairness in our nation."

"It is up to the Senate to consign this failed and discriminatory law to the dustbin of history," Solmonese added.

It could be the land of free in so many simple ways that SHOW the true freedom of it's citizens. I would put this alongside being equally as important as ratifying a nuclear arms treaty with Russia.

What is there to protect if the people themselves are not protected and free from oppressions?

I am moved to remember some of the Gettysburg Address. The Address itself always touches me when I read it. I always find the final paragraph most poignant... But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. (in recent conflicts read men as man & women)

So many have given their all. Maybe it is time for their nation to give them back their freedoms to be who they are and live as they need to?

I wish the repeal the very best of success so that the soldiers who are gay and fighting for our freedoms can live in freedom themselves.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:36 PM

Beautiful post, mauvepink.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:41 PM

Yes, 999... HEAR HEAR mauvepink!!! Freedom, liberty and justice for all... we hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 03:56 PM

Thank you but the words are hardly mine. However, without such actions as need to be taken to release these servicemen/women to have to lie or be disgraced, they are only words. They are GREAT words but what would give them great validity is action.

President Lincoln could not have known when he delivered the Address that he would have to die for doing what he believed in. His wonderfully powerful words reach out across the generations and decades that have passed since his assasination to mean as much now, I feel, as they they did back. Actions have always spoke louder than words however.

mp

NB I mention servicemen/women as I have mentioned soldiers previously. Of course, I mean all those in the military and have now corrected my oversight I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:35 PM

"Don't ask, don't tell" is a stupid policy. When it was put into place, I thought it was a stupid policy.

I served with gays and lesbians, but most of the time, I guessed. No way I would ask anyone. It was none of my business, but my friends might have volunteered the information if not for the fact that I could have been called as a witness in a court martial. "Don't ask, don't tell," but if we find out, you're screwed.

The policy gives bullies a license to torment gays and lesbians. When a person is forced into a closet, it makes being dragged out a serious threat. It's a stupid policy that forces a person to pretend to be someone they are not, and THEN expects them to be honest and honorable, to take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. How can you trust someone who can pretend to be something they aren't? It's a stupid policy.

What reality was like when I was in was that people who would accept gays and lesbians in civilian life, did so in the military, even if THEY had to pretend not to know or suspect anything. The people who would have been homophobes and bullies in civilian life, but who at least acted fair because THE LAW SAID THEY HAD TO had, in the military, a free rein to persecute people they perceived as gay or lesbian, because there was, and IS, no protection for them.

Don't ask/don't tell is a STUPID policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:45 PM

In WW2, when I was inducted, a large, frog-like officer was at the end of the medical examination line. When I reached his position, he gave me a dead-eyed stare and asked "Do you like girls?"

I had a couple of physical shortcomings, so like many others in the same boat, I was stamped "Army Only" and was eventually assigned to the Medical Corps. I had answered "Some of them" to the doctor, but I think I would have reached the same destination if I had said "No". A fair number of homosexuals were in the Army Medical Corps. I don't recall that it affected, or interferred with, their work.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:45 PM

Yeah, but we gotta keep Redneck Nation happy, don't we??? After all, they do have the collective intelligence to follow Boss Hog's directions in the voting booths... Not much more other knowing how how to tie a gay to a pickup truck and drag him down dirt roads until he is dead... Lotta intellect there, Bubba...

Seriously, when we have laws that condone bullying then we shouldn't complain when something like that, which did happen in Texas BTW, occurs... I mean, garbage in = garbage out... Look at what the brown shirts did??? I mean, the US has it's own brown shirts and DADT is just one more way to keep them busy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:54 PM

Bigotry is alive and well on the left as well as the right...

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: gnu
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 04:56 PM

I only ever had one friend that was "openly gay", as far as could be back then. It was over 25 years ago. He was a Proctor in residence at uni and an extremely intelligent student from England. He was a well respected scholar and member of The Church Of England (he was the organ player... sorry... we made a lot of jokes about it back than and he laughed along). He taught me a lot about his problems and I overcame my childish childhood teachings that homosexuality was evil.

Things have advanced over the past few decades and now the US government seems poised to join reality... as MT said, "Someday, maybe."

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 05:14 PM

Yer correct, Jeri... We on the left do hate stupidity, greed, dumb wars, exploitation, the "ism"s and mean people...

Guilty as charged...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 16 Dec 10 - 09:46 PM

Three Republicans today joined the repeal side of the potential votes in the Senate.

"Senator Susan Collins, the bill's one Republican sponsor, has been joined by three other Republican senators — Scott P. Brown of Massachusetts, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Olympia J. Snowe of Maine — in supporting the measure."

"Along with the backing of 54 Democrats and two independents, the Republican support is enough to push the measure to the necessary 60-vote threshold. Another Democrat who backs repeal, Ron Wyden of Oregon, announced Thursday that he would undergo surgery for prostate cancer on Monday and be absent for votes starting Friday. Only one Democrat, Joe Manchin III of West Virginia, has declined to support the measure.

"The bill's greatest obstacle is no longer votes, but the clock."

Bid to Repeal 'Don't Ask' Law Draws Support in Senate

Fingers crossed.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 07:03 AM

So this could be a great Christmas present for the American people to give to their Servicemen/women?

I really hope so :-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 04:59 PM

All day I have hoped for word, either here or from the NYT. Friday night and we have been left... Bummer!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:11 PM

What I have never understood is why this is any of the military`s damned business, or the country`s for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:22 PM

The military seem to have to stick their nose into everything! And then proceed to make a mess of it all. They seem to think they rule the world and until they get a clear message that this is not true....   From the first stone thrown by one cave man at another...???

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: GUEST,999
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:35 PM

. . . or cave woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:39 PM

I really needed a good laugh! Thank you! I actually thought about that while posting and decided to leave it at man. Leave it to you....

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:47 PM

Why do Republicans think it makes sense for the army to have homosexuals in it as long as
a)they don't admit it and
b)nobody asks them to admit it
?
So they can go on pretending that homosexuals don't serve in the army? And we're supposed to go along with this delusion??
I mean, you either bar gays from the armed services, or you don't. If you let them serve, what's the purpose of "don't ask, don't tell"?

AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE??

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 05:49 PM

Oh, I don't think it is you, EJ, who is missing something!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: gnu
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:00 PM

It's the establishment that is missing a pair of balls. Stand up for freedom and equality for all you buncha old hipocritic idiots... he says to those that have deaf ears.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mousethief
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:12 PM

Too true, gnu. The Republicans have no conscience and the Democrats have no spine.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:18 PM

Republicans, Democrats, whatever. Anybody who thinks this makes sense is a moron. I'd much rather be in a foxhole with Ru Paul. At least I know he has a damn brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 10 - 06:45 PM

When I was doing security clearance investigations (1974-2002), I had to follow up if people alleged that the person I was investigating was a homosexual. We didn't ask upfront whether the person was homosexual, but we were supposed to follow up if witnesses said so. Gee, I hated doing that. If a witness disclosed that the subject was a homosexual, we were supposed to ask if he/she had any reason to hide it, or if there was anything about the person's sexual conduct that could make him subject to blackmail.
There was only one case where I thought the issue might have been important - that person ended up working for the Americans in a country where the culture was very hostile to homosexuals, and and I wondered whether the person's homosexuality could have put him in danger. Apparently, it didn't.
Oh, there was a second case - an employee of the Border Patrol who had a series of same-sex lovers. All of these lovers came from foreign countries on temporary visas and all were just barely over the legal age of 18, considerably younger than the agent himself. That one really made me wonder.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Skivee
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:18 AM

They're both a bit creepy

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 08:19 AM

If gay people were allowed to be open and out then blackmail could never be a threat on their sexuality. Yet another good reason for allowing openess.

All this said, though, and it is still beyond me what anyone's sexuality has to do with anyone else. Who knows what hetrosexuals get up to legally and who cares? It should be the same for gay people and nothing less.

Take away the means to blackmail someone and you can have no blackmail!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 01:37 PM

It has passed the Senate! Now it has to be "certified by" the president, the joint chiefs of staff an the Secretary of Defense, all of whom have previously agreed to it.   Sooner the better!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:49 PM

Actually, the President signs it and the military implements it - the JCS don't have a vote.

About time!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 03:53 PM

Idoubt Obama will hesitate a minute in signing this repeal into law. About time indeed!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:37 PM

Yay! Thanks for posting the good news

This is a great day for true freedom

Am so happy for all those whose life it will make better :-)

Happy Christmas!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM

WOW! I am so happy to hear this good news!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:21 PM

Wow. Squeaked by at 65-31. It's crazy how these things have to be done, but it actually got done! Whew!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Don't ask don't tell
From: mauvepink
Date: 18 Dec 10 - 07:37 PM

!00 up on here and well up on the vote. It's brilliant!

:-)

mp