BS: Sacristan Duties

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:13 PM

Yes, mg, or something a bit plainer than C of E. Maybe I should follow my sister in Scotland. She's a member of the Kirk!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 02:49 PM

"I go to church there to worship God, which I could do in any church frankly."

You could do that OUT of any church, too. You talking to those around you or you talking to God?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 03:20 PM

My first thought when I read the title was stand guard at the door and make sure nothing happens. And read up on Mahoney and Curry if you can stomach it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:06 PM

bruce-you are quite right that worship can happen outside the church but many christians see meeting together as prescibed practise to be maintained even if not entirely happy about everything or everyone in the church.hebrews 10 v24,25.
if i were to be labeled,i suppose i would be non-conformist.i believe the bread and wine are symbolic of the blood and body of Christ and should be treated reverently during the eucharist but are ordinary otherwise.i would have no argument with anyone stricter, but for me it is substance of the symbol not the substance itself that matters.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM

Well, thank you everyone for your comments, advice and support. I haven't discussed this with anyone as I don't feel I wanted to confide in people who know me. But it's so nice to air my concerns on Mudcat and have the kind and interested responses given here. Thank you so much, you've all helped me a great deal. Eliza x

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 09:46 AM

You are welcome ... a breath of fresh air amongst the BS

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 13 - 08:07 PM

Eliza, please remember that all of this can be fun - it should be fun. If it isn't, try to figure out a way to fix it. If that doesn't work, find a better situation.
I've had to do some battling to get my church to where I feel comfortable, and I think I've been fairly successful. I have a great time every Sunday - and I have friends to lean on if somebody tries to dump on me (and church people can be especially good at dumping on people).

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,BobL
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 04:22 AM

Although the CoE officially rejects the doctrine of transubstantiation (see the 39 Articles of Religion in BCP), the consecrated elements are nevertheless symbols of Christ's presence. And as with other symbols - national flags, for example, or pictures of loved ones - lack of respect might cause hurt or at least discomfort to others. The degree to which this happens, and whether such feelings are reasonable, will always be one of those things on which debate is endless and profitless.

I think the bottom line is that sometimes you have to avoid treading on people's toes, sometimes it's better to suggest, politely, that they keep their toes out of the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 11:42 AM

Eliza,
You took a task with a good heart, it doesn't sound to me like you're the one that messed up and it strikes me as unkind (and unnecessarily hurtful) if someone is pointing a rude finger at you.

If this piece of fussy fabric is truly revered as sacredly precious, why was it allowed to get dingy enough to need help from a non-trained good deed doer?
Why was it put in your hands without Proper Instruction if there are unusual rules for taking care of it?



I'm not churchy and don't know much about fancy hankies.
What is the one we're talking about used for? Does it hide the bread, or is it the one for wiping spit off the cup?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Crowhugger
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 03:03 PM

Eliza, he set you up to fail, whether he meant to or not. Then afterwards he made sure to let you know you HAD failed. I can think of many things a decent person might do in the same situation (situation being he perhaps realized too late that he'd failed to ensure adequate laundry instructions were given), and your vicar's actions are not on the list. This man, in a position of trust and whose role is to minister to you, chose to be cruel. Your own comfy chair will make a suitable place of worship until you find a church to your liking.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 03:21 PM

The cloth thing is (I think, because I only go up to the altar to kneel and take communion, you can't really see what's happening on the table throughout the service) goes under the chalice to catch any drops. There's another cloth which wipes the chalice after each person drinks. The first 'hanky' is the one you have to iron into nine equal squares. At the end of the service the vicar folds it up and drapes it over the cup before he carries it away. The second 'hanky' you don't fold into nine squares. But both should be soaked and the water gently poured onto bare earth etc etc.
I've been looking this up on Google and I think they're called 'corporal' and 'purificator' respectively, but I've no idea really, and I don't know which hanky I washed. And I shan't be offering to do it again I can tell you! I am seriously considering other churches not quite so 'high'. And if one believes in God, one feels He's everywhere anyway. And I'm sure He won't be cross about my Holy Hanky desecration!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 05:52 PM

Hi, Pete. Matthew 6,6.

However, I do see where you're coming from :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Melissa
Date: 24 Jan 13 - 06:19 PM

This has me thinking about the last time I watched communion. It seems like the priest held the chalice with a folded napkin-looking cloth..like using a potholder. I'm pretty sure I thought he was doing that to keep from fingerprinting.
His other hand was the rim wiper.

If I'm remembering that accurately, the potholder cloth would be the Corporal (does that mean 'blood catcher only'?) and the wipey would be Purificator?

Joe,
Does the Purificator have a disinfectant on it, or is there a special blessing on it to keep germs from being shared with the wine?


I really wish we could have occasional threads where we oddly curious ones (namely Me) could just have a rambling, considerate, conversation about things like this.
I'm learning unexpected things from your hurt feeling experience, Eliza. I am glad you started this thread!

..of course, now you've got me wondering why it's ok for diluted wine (via rinse water) to be poured on good earth..but not for the rest of the bottle to be reverently disposed of the same way.

Apologies for pulling your thread a bit sideways.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:31 AM

Thank you so much for your kind comments Melissa. Isn't it great to have a thread where everyone is interesting, considerate, polite and non-confrontational? That's not to say that other people can't have a real old ding-dong battle which gets acrimonious. Mudcat is super because all kinds of discussions and tones are available, from the quiet and reflective to the furious and insulting! And you haven't pulled my thread sideways. I love it when a thread develops and twists about, just as in face-to-face conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:40 AM

Hi, Melissa -

I like teaching people about these things. Our religious education director has me teach the kids this stuff because they like my stories. I'm not much for rules and regulations, but I love the richness of traditions and the stories behind them - even the quirky stories. I know the rules and regulations better than just about any priest I know - it's a good defense against the legalists who try to force others to do things their way.

In the Roman church, the corporal (square cloth folded into nine squares) is used on the altar underneath golden vessels holding the consecrated bread and wine. I suppose there are all sorts of interpretations of its purpose - simply put, it signifies that place on the altar as a special, sacred place. Functionally, it also serves to keep the main altar cloth clean. It's used only on the altar.

The purificator (oblong cloth used for wiping the chalice) is just a white cloth - don't know if it's required to be linen, but it's usually called "linen." I suspect it's usually cotton - synthetics supposedly tend to scrape the gold plating off the chalice. Sometimes, a purificator will be used for holding gold vessels that are likely to be damaged by fingerprints. Purificators are portable, multi-purpose cloths, and corporals stay on the altar.

But no, there is no disinfectant other than the alcohol in the wine, and there's no belief that consecration kills germs. Our lay ministers do use hand sanitizer before distributing communion, however. Ever since communion "under both species" (bread and wine) was instituted after Vatican II in the 1970s, there has been discussion about whether communion from a common cup is sanitary. It's optional, and conservative and squeamish people avoid the cup. People with colds also seem to be pretty good about passing the cup by.

Our bishop seems to be on the careful side, so he prohibits the cup and does not allow people to receive communion on the tongue during flu season (such as now). I suppose it's not a bad idea to be safe. Some conservatives get upset about having to receive communion in their hand, but that doesn't seem to be a big issue in our parish (the conservatives go to the other parish in town). Oh, and we're not supposed to shake or hold hands during flu season.

I heard years ago there were "studies" made that determined that the common cup was a negligible factor in the spread of disease - not that I can actually find any record of such studies. I also haven't heard of any terrible epidemics in Catholic parishes....

I can't say I think the purificator does a whole lot of good, other than stopping drips. I try to rotate it and the chalice so I'm not always using the same spot on the cloth or chalice - not that I think it helps at all, but I think people feel more comfortable when they see me make an effort. Drinking from the common cup has rich symbolism and I like it, so I've taken the risk for forty years or more. Since I'm the sacristan and more-or-less the chief usher, I'm usually the last to drink from the cup, so I suppose I get everybody's germs. I figure the slightly-drunk germs serve to strengthen my immune system.

I suppose that deep inside me, there's a defiant element that demands that I receive communion from lay ministers in my hand and from the common cup, and never while kneeling. These are privileges we won in Vatican II, and there are conservatives constantly demanding that these practices be abolished because they consider them irreverent. They want people to kneel down at a rail with their tongues out. So, I proudly take the cup, risk of infection be damned.

And hey, I'm still here and I'm still healthy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 04:58 AM

When I have got a bug I just dip the wafer instead of sipping.
Some choose to do that when flu is about.

My Mary's Methodist church uses individual "shot" type glasses.
Methodists do not have the protection of alcohol in the wine.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,MG
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 09:07 AM

what is wrong with kneelig? i dno admit i do not like sticking my tongue out and never do but i don't mind kneeling in the least. also why don't people kneel after commun ion? makes no sense to me..i always kneel after communion. and don't drink the wine except for a couple times just so on judgement day i could say i did.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 06:30 PM

What's wrong with kneeling to receive communion, MG? Nothing, if that's what you like. But to me, kneeling seems like a symbol of subservience to authority. My relationship with God isn't subservient.

For me, it's a symbol of a rigid, harsh, legalistic form of Catholicism that is distasteful to me. I'd rather enjoy being a Catholic.

And it you have some kneelers and some standers, it make a confusing mess out of distributing communion. Same after communion - if some kneel, some sit, and some stand - the people don't mesh very well together in the pews unless the church is very sparsely filled.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Dani
Date: 25 Jan 13 - 09:08 PM

Oy, Joe. If only we could clone you and your spirit. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: if they put you in charge, or even just listened to you, the Catholic church wouldn't have no problems.

Just sayin'.

On a trivial personal note, the day I was received as an Episcopalian was the same day the beautiful aumbry was dedicated in our pretty little church. Every time I see it, I feel a little bit special : )

There's a place for such frippery. No more, no less.

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 07:03 AM

Joe, as an atheist who understands the beneficial effects of "faith" in our society, I can never get my head around where you fit into the picture.
You appear to see the place of ritual in your faith yet seem eager to rock the boat on almost every occasion available.
Even to me, kneeling before your "god" seems emminently sensible, surely a form of worship?...I sometimes say a silent "prayer" for the survival of the forces of nature against the sustained attacks of "civilisation"....and would do so on my knees without a thought.
Even as an atheist, I am only too aware of my place in the great scheme of things!
I also do not understand your embrace of political policies designed in many cases to destroy religion, like the redefinition of Christian marriage.
Do you not realise that the people who promote these policies are the most voluble enemies of religion, which they see as the last bastion of conservatism. "Gay marriage" constitutes a veritable fifth column within the church.
"Turning the other cheek" is a laudable christian principle, but in these changed days, could turn out to be a painful "thorn in the flesh" :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 09:36 AM

Sacristan, is that near Uzbekistan? (Or uzbekibekistan)?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:15 AM

No, Stringsinger, it's near Durham (UK)

;-)

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: ranger1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:23 AM

Ake, Joe illustrates the difference between being a person of faith and a blind follower of dogma. There is a difference between what Christ taught and what church establishment has turned it into. There is comfort in ritual, but ritual doesn't have to be static. I'm not Christian, either, I don't see Christ as the messiah, more of a social reformer and spiritual teacher, one of many from many different faiths. What Joe is doing in the church is using his faith to influence the social change that I think Christ the man was trying to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: ranger1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:23 AM

But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:29 AM

Joe, I do not think anyone stands for communion in UK, Catholic or not, unless they have a physical difficulty.
Anyone else confirm my experience?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 10:37 AM

In my experience as a UK Catholic, Keith, *everyone* stands to receive communion, unless they are wheelchair bound, or similar. After communion, most sit or kneel.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 11:10 AM

I have never stood to receive communion Keith. Only an elderly lady who cannot kneel stands to receive it. (I often help her up to the altar). We also kneel to pray. (This is in the Church of England) But I have attended many many Catholic masses and there everyone stands to receive and also to pray. I truly have no problem with ritual directly connected to the service (eg Communion, Evensong etc, such as lighting candles) It's a way of doing honour to God, and continues traditions. What I find impossible to accept and to carry out is superstitious nonsense connected to mere objects long after the service is over, such as treating a bit of cloth as if it were a Holy Hanky. It's not as if I cleaned the toilet with it, just popped it in the washing machine as anyone with any sense would do. Actually, I don't even hold with revering objects supposedly directly connected with Jesus ('relics', Turin Shroud etc) They are just physical items and no different to any other items. In my opinion one loses the point by concentrating on these instead of directing one's attentions to carrying out the religion (ie trying to do good, helping others, praying for others, making an effort to do no harm etc etc) Waving Holy Hankies about won't help anyone to do this!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 11:20 AM

The only Catholic Mass I have attended was at my son's wedding, and of course could not participate.
I never noticed they were standing.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 11:54 AM

There were a lot of changes to the Catholic rituals in the sixties under a series of reforms Catholics refer to as Vatican II. One of several physical changes was the removal of communion rails. One effect of this is that there is nothing to rest against if you are kneeling, making the act quite a bit more physically demanding. So standing is both easier and quite a lot quicker than having each person kneel in turn. Before Vatican II and in Church of England (as similar) the use of rails with the minister moving along the entire width makes both ways of receiving almost equally practical.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 12:06 PM

Ake, I think if you go back to the original source materials (the actual teachings of Christ as recorded by his Disciples) you will find that forgiveness and tolerance carry a lot more importance than constraints and moral strictures. The line about who gets to cast the first stone comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 03:59 PM

Ake, I really appreciate your questions. Remember that I have eight years of training in a Catholic seminary, so it's not like I'm inventing my own religion or something (although I know at least a couple former seminarians who did invent their own).

I have studied (and taught) the Scriptures and Catholic teachings and tradition all my life - from a middle-of-the road to progressive standpoint, mind you. None of that literalist, fundamentalist stuff for me. I know and love Catholic tradition and ritual. I respect the "rules," but I see the function of the rules as preserving authenticity, not exerting authority. And I abhor the idea of slavish adherence to the rules.

For me, the primary element of my religious faith is joy. I go to church to celebrate, not out of submission or obligation. And when I go, I have a wonderful time. The word "authority" has no place in my religious faith - and neither do shame or guilt. For me, "sin" is causing harm, not breaking rules. Religious faith is supposed to help us overcome sin, not wallow in guilt over it. I take Jesus at his word when he says, "The kingdom of God is at hand," and I don't wait for it to come after I die. There is so much to do and so much to celebrate in this life. I see my role in life as participating in God's creation, of bringing all things to good. I feel an obligation to serve God's creation, especially the poor and oppressed. I'm expecting something good will come after death, but I'm not waiting around for it because my life is so full that I'm really busy savoring its richness.

I don't deny suffering and sorrow, but I don't look on them as punishment. In fact, I don't think God punishes us - we are punished by the consequences of our own actions. Faith gives us what we need to overcome suffering and sorrow, or at least to make it meaningful.

I don't see my perspective as the only valid perspective - I see mine as a work in progress, and I think that everyone has at least an amount of validity in his or her own perspective. The whole picture is somewhere in the mix of all those perspectives, the perspectives of the whole spectrum of believers and nonbelievers. I don't think my perspective is on the 'liberal fringe." It's well within the mainstream of Catholic and Christian tradition - although a more somber perspective is also part of the mainstream.

That being said, I feel obligated to accept and explore the aspects of validity in the perspectives of those who take a more somber and authoritarian view of religious faith. But that's not for me. For me, kneeling is a medievalism, a sign of submission to authority. Standing is a sign of celebration, so standing for communion is far more meaningful for me. And sitting at ease is, the best posture for reflection, study, and prayer.

I'm not alone in my perspective. It's widespread in the Catholic Church, especially in the older, more authentically traditional religious orders - most Franciscans and Jesuits are good examples. A couple of years ago, I became an associate member of the Sisters of Mercy, because I have much in common with those wise, wonderful nuns. This perspective has been alive in the Christian church throughout its history. Much of it got lost amidst the politics of intrigue of medieval times, but it survived among the mystics and was quite healthy in religious orders and some local churches. The Second Vatican Council brought a rebirth of this perspective in the Catholic Church, and then the contemptible but popular John Paul II did his best to suppress it during his 25-year reign.

I've been quite successful in fostering this perspective in the parishes I have belonged to in my lifetime, although it has often been a struggle to get the overly pietistic ones to at least tolerate us who have a more joyful and positive point of view. When the struggle gets to me and I feel myself getting angry, I spend some time with the nuns and they bring me back to a more gentle perspective.

So, Ake, there you have it. That's as honest a presentation as I can make. I practive my faith from a position of freedom, not obligation. I see the Catholic Church as MY church - it's mine every bit as much as it's the Pope's church. I pay attention to what he has to say and I have at least some level of respect for his authority, but I feel no obligation to obey him.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 04:35 PM

Eliza, I'm putting this below as I don't think you have a Facebook page, so a link to this won't be any good for you...It's from a FB friend of mine, James, over in America, who is a Quaker. I thought you might like to see it. And I'm with Bruce, no need for 'churches' to bring you close to The Spirit In The Sky... :0) xxx




>>>"All my Relations" vs. "Our Father"
        
        
My Friend Lizzie Cornish recently posted the Lakota prayer "Mitakuye Oyasin" ("All My Relations") on her Facebook page, with the comment that it beats the hell out of the Lord's Prayer. I have to confess that the Native American prayer is more universal in its message than the one Jesus is said to have recommended to his followers I think they serve different purposes.


Aho Mitakuye Oyasin

All my relations. I honor you in this circle of life with me today. I am grateful for this opportunity to acknowledge you in this prayer.

To the Creator, for the ultimate gift of life, I thank you.

To the mineral nation that has built and maintained my bones and all foundations of life experience, I thank you.

To the plant nation that sustains my organs and body and gives me healing herbs for sickness, I thank you.

To the animal nation that feeds me from your own flesh and offers your loyal companionship in this walk of life, I thank you.

To the human nation that shares my path as a soul upon the sacred wheel of Earthly life, I thank you.

To the Spirit nation that guides me invisibly through the ups and downs of life and for carrying the torch of light through the Ages, I thank you.

To the Four Winds of Change and Growth, I thank you.

You are all my relations, my relatives, without whom I would not live. We are in the circle of life together, co-existing, co-dependent, co-creating our destiny. One, not more important than the other. One nation evolving from the other and yet each dependent upon the one above and the one below. All of us a part of the Great Mystery.

Thank you for this Life.


The prayer is said by one person to a multiplicity of beings. It acknowledges that the Spirit infuses all living things, and all parts of planet Earth, not just human beings, and expresses gratitude for the cooperation and coexistence of all these beings, which sustains the person speaking the prayer as well as all the rest.

In contrast, the Lord's Prayer is said by a group of humans ("us") to a unitary male deity, begging him to remain sacred and in charge, to keep on feeding us so we stay alive, and to make it easy for us to continue behaving morally. It calls for a bargain in which we forgive the bad things others do to us and God in turn forgives us for all the bad things we have been doing (and continue to do) to others. It implies that perfection ("heaven") exists and that God can and should make our earthly life more like that perfection.

    Our Father in heaven,
    hallowed be your name.
    Your kingdom come,
    your will be done,
    on earth as it is in heaven.
    Give us this day our daily bread,
    and forgive us our debts (trespasses, sins),
    as we also have forgiven our debtors (those who trespass against us).
    And lead us not into temptation (trials),
    but deliver us from evil (the evil one)
    for the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory are yours for ever


About that bargain, with the background of Jesus' other teachings in mind, we must assume that we are supposed to stop doing evil right now, so that the bargain can be final, but what if we keep doing bad things to other people? It doesn't ask that victims of our bad acts be made whole, but just that God forgive us on behalf of them; what happens to "them" is of no concern. The prayer is human-centered, in-group-centered and selfish. It also implies that the whim of God could kill us all off in an instant.

Both prayers express a passive attitude toward life and the workings of the Spirit. In the Lord's prayer, God is to remain sacred, all-powerful, and in charge, insuring that the world continues toward perfection. In the Lakota prayer, the relationship of all beings and all "nations" is eternal and dynamic, with no single part being in charge.

Thankfulness and cooperation are at the heart of the Lakota prayer. Fear and shame seem to underlie the Christian prayer.

The reality is that those who repeatedly say the Lord's Prayer have been among those who perpetrate many large-scale wrongs on each other and upon the other peoples and "nations" of the Earth. Those who recite the Lakota prayer have, to be fair, never been numerous enough to demonstrate the positive or negative outward effects of saying their prayer on a world scale.

I know that the mental and physical effects of reading or saying the Lakota prayer feel positive and helpful. Having grown up with the Lord's prayer, I feel anxious when I listen to the words, but peaceful if I just let it wash over me as an ancient formula, like singing or hearing an old ballad. We used to say in unison, along with the 23rd Psalm and the Pledge of Allegiance in elementary school; I wonder whether my life would have been different if we had recited "All My Relations" each morning instead."<<<<

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 04:47 PM

Hi, Lizzie -
I would submit that one can take a more positive, nurturing view of the Lord's Prayer. If your perspective of the Christian God is of a loving, nurturing, supporting, forgiving Being of nonspecific gender, then the Lord's Prayer can be quite positive.

If you see God as the One who forgives when no one else will forgive, that's a pretty big thing. If you see God as the Source of all Goodness, that's pretty big, too. Remember that St. John said God is Love. That puts a different spin on it, too.

The authoritarian view of God is not the only valid Christian perspective - and I don't think it's the view of God that Jesus had.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 05:14 PM

Hello, Joe! Big hug! xx

I'll keep quiet on this one, for a change..other than to say 'All My Relations' does it for me....

:0) xx

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 05:29 PM

Joe - you are obviously in a very fortunate position where you are. Don't ever let anyone in your parish let on to the powers that be in Rome at the moment how you see things - cos they'll be down on you like a ton of bricks.

I think you would be very surprised if you ever spent time in European / UK parishes: to the point of wondering if you were in the same church.

Does the name Hubert Richards mean anything to you - he was a prof in theology in Rome in the early 60s? I knew him in the early 70s when he was living in the parish I was in at the time. He was a lay person and married by then. He warned us liberals about the attitudes and ambitions of a certain Ratzinger then - and he was right.

I and mine collapsed (like lapsed, only more so) as the UK church slowly slid away from VAT 2, and started lurching into old ways of thinking.

Eliza - perhaps you will look back on this episode, and see how working through aspects of it clarify your own thinking and belief for the future. I wish you luck in your search.

Paws

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Janie
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 06:41 PM

I'm atheist, but really value the focus the rituals of the communal service of the Episcopal church to which I belong provide.

I'm sure if I attended a congregation where dogma reigned I might be very uncomfortable and the rituals might seem dogmatic to me. As it is, I find the shared rituals of the service provide a focal point and a shared experience that are reminders that while we are individuals, we also are dependent on community and exist within the context of community. Also, that the function of institutions, ultimately, is to sustain social community which is essential for the survival of our species. (I know, lots of tensions involved, some of which are very tricky to resolve or balance.) Maybe because I was not "raised in a church" I do not generally have strong emotional reactions against "religion" or particular spiritual beliefs.

I do find ritual useful in my life, and once I became familar with the communal rituals of the service at my particular church, I found them comforting and inspiring, although perhaps not in the same way Christian believers experience them.

Some rituals have shifted over the years in my particular congregation. More people stand than kneel during particular parts of the service, although most people still kneel at the communion rail and those who don't are generally people who find it difficult to do so.

I genuflect when I enter the pew and kneel with head bowed for a moment or two before settling myself in the pew. I kneel during the parts of the service that indicate one should stand or kneel, and, when my knees allow, which is most of the time, I kneel at the alter rail for communion. Yes, I take communion. The rules of the church say all those baptized may do so, I was baptized earlier in my life, so it is "legal" and it is a rite of great meaning to me, only not quite the meaning perhaps it has to others.

To me, the kneeling and the genuflecting, and the bowing when the cross proceeds up the aisle are not bowing before a god I don't happen to think exists, it is an honoring of and a recognition that there is a power greater than myself on which ultimately my sustenance depends. Community. Other human beings in organized association and mindful living. Nature. The universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jan 13 - 08:12 PM

Thanks for taking the time Joe.
But why do you feel that you should address your god on equal terms....the Pope is not "god"

When I get into a "spiritual" mood I know that to my "god" (the life force), i am nothing, less than a grain of sand, a "god" that does not care whether I am liberal or conservative, rich or poor, stupid or intelligent, proud or humble.
My god demands respect, obedience and care from humanity.
If it is not forthcoming my "god" will wipe us from the face of the earth, like straws in the wind.

The cult of self has no place in spiritual matters.

I liked your post Janie......and Joe I dont mean to belittle what you have written I'm sure you are a genuinely good person, I just dont understand why you provide ammunition to those who would destroy all the good things in a belief system.
You must see them on these pages.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 02:39 AM

I just dont understand why you provide ammunition to those who would destroy all the good things in a belief system.

I guess he simply says what he believes to be the case. If others regard that as ammunition, it can't be helped.

For my part, I am ambivalent about ritual. It has lots of positive aspects as Janie said: they can be comforting and inspiring. Perhaps more importantly, they can provide a framework to assist with a deeper understanding of what your particular religion is about. On the other hand, they can be completely empty spaces, with no real significance, which are either an attempt to manipulate god ("you need to sacrifice a black chicken to appease the River-god") or - very commonly in Catholicism - an attempt by the hierarchy to exercise a worldly control over the organisation, exactly as any big business CEO and board might do.

Go back to to the original opening post. The ritual says the cloth should be folded into nine squares. Really? Do we believe God will regard us differently if we fold it into four rather than nine? Now, if the folding into thirds is connected with some meditative thoughts about the nature of the Trinity, that's a good thing. If its a rule from on high, its just a rule.

And it is this reason why some people like me regard Vatican II as so important. Like the sort of audits and reviews that might take place in any business these days, it started out by asking very fundamental questions - what is the relationships between the people, priest and God, for example - and seriously questioned all the rituals that had grown up over the centuries, jettisoning a lot of them as pointless superstition with no theological basis. Since then, as Joe pointed out, we have tended to behave in the typical human fashion and introduce a whole new bunch of rules and regulations, and currently have a centre, in the form of the Pope and his cardinals, that seem very keen on reasserting the centralised control that existed before Vatican II.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 03:53 AM

Well, DMcG, the square corporal is folded into nine squares for a very good reason: it looks good that way, with a crease pattern of nine squares when it's unfolded - and it's a nice, portable size.

The oblong purificator is folded into six oblong rectangles for the same reason - it looks good that way.

To add some mystical meaning to it, probably isn't necessary. From an aesthetic point of view, it looks nice.

Ake, why would I, as a free person, want to submit to an authoritarian church, or to an authoritarian God? I go to church because it makes my life richer and more meaningful. I'm an intelligent, well-behaved person - why do I need somebody else to impose a set of rules on me?

To my mind, Benedict XVI isn't all that bad, but I think he gets bad press because reporters don't understand him. Benedict tends toward conservatism, but at least he seems to be open to the discussion and to enjoy the discussion. John Paul II was nowhere near that open-minded.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 04:07 AM

I don't have a problem with things being done for aesthetic reasons either, Joe. Not so much because they 'look nice' as because they can make it very difficult for some people to concentrate if what they see appears haphazard and untidy. But that falls into a different category than saying do-this-because-I-say-so, in my mind. The example I gave on the folding the cloth was not to imbue it with a specific meaning, but as an attempt to illustrate how some people can use a ritual to feed their understanding, and there is no requirement for that idea to come from the authorities. On other occasions, though, the authorities may say 'we do it this way to help understand such and such', which may work for you, or it may not.

Maybe examining the cloth handling discussed above was not a good example, but I hope the gist is clear enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 04:33 AM

My suggestion:
    Wash it how you like, providing you don't damage it;
    Smile sweetly as you lie about what you did with the water.

What the eye doesn't see, the heart won't grieve over. If you don't get struck by lightning then you know you've got away with it.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 04:49 AM

Eliza - pop along one day and give your vicar a packet of paper hankies. That should do for a bit...

You know, to complete atheists, all this rigmarole must seem hilarious if not utterly contemptible!

Actually, not "contemptible", just irrelevant - to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 04:54 AM

I understand your point Doug, but I'm rather a direct and straight-to-the-point old lady. I wouldn't bother to lie to someone, I'd just say what I did with the wretched thing and, after they'd recoiled in horror, add that I wouldn't be doing it any more.
The Lakota Prayer was fascinating and moving. It actually expresses much of what I in my heart feel and believe. Not for nothing am I a Celt on both sides, Scots and Irish. I always have felt a great affinity with the natural world and recognise my place within it and how much I owe to the Creator who ordered it all. In fact, the greatest peace I ever feel is being alone deep in the countryside near to huge oaks, observing the wildlife around me and being 'at one' with it. Thank you so much Lizzie for taking the trouble to type it out for me, as I do not, as you say, have a Facebook page. But my early experiences of Christianity in the C of E were very good. I had gentle and exemplary vicars and Sunday school teachers, and never felt it to be repressive or condemnatory. However I had a foot in both camps so to speak as I also went to mass with my Catholic cousin. This was long before Vat 2, and I adored the elaborate ritual, Latin and incense etc. I even had a little mantilla to wear. My father used to have a fit, as he was raised a Presbyterian, but my mother wisely let me go with Anne. She believed in letting me find my own way. So I'm a bit ecumenical to say the least.
Have to say though, that Lakota Prayer touches me the most and puts into words things I've felt all my life. Hmmmm... what now I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Jan 13 - 09:15 PM

I have to admit that I'm a little taken aback by the Altar Society ladies and their fierce devotion to their task of keeping those white cloths clean. There was an altar society lady in the sacristy today, collecting the dirty laundry. Because of this discussion, I took a chance and introduced myself to her. She was delightful. She takes great pride in her work, but she's very practical. She gave me all sorts of great laundry tips. She advises Oxiclean, without detergent.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 04:29 AM

Thank you Joe. I actually love doing laundry and truly believe the church and the various vestments and linen should be nice and clean. I'd gladly 'do the laundry' for the whole shebang, but I would not be soaking hankies in bowls and treating the rinsing water as anything special. Do you know, I'm very surprised (and gratified) at the amount of interest this thread has provoked. I expected two or three responses at most. I'm so grateful for all the feedback and the interesting comments and advice. I still feel close to God, so I'll trust Him to show me where I stand in the choice of church and how my faith should develop. As Tiny Tim said, "God bless us, every one!"

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 04:37 AM

Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen.
Timothy Winters says, "Amen."

http://web.cs.dal.ca/~johnston/poetry/timothy.html

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 06:56 PM

I found a Victorian book called "The Truth about the Oxford Movement" by a very Protestant CofE cleric which went into this sort of thing with some horror as introducing something inappropriate to the Anglican church, so I expect your church has been influenced since the time of Newman et al into those practices. (There was some complex procedure to be followed if any of the consecrated host fell on the floor whoch reduced the author to apoplexy. He did not hold with transubstantiation, which is what lies behind the care with which the sine is treated.)

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 07:02 PM

Hair raisingly funny Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 28 Jan 13 - 09:30 PM

I see that this thread started out as Holy Hanky. I am beginning to think it should be renamed again, this time as Cranky Hanky.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacristan Duties
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Jan 13 - 04:52 AM

In answer to an earlier query, the church linen is soaked in cold salt water to remove winestains.

Cheers
Nigel


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