BS: Life in jail for police killers

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 18 May 13 - 04:34 AM

My son is a serving police officer. Speaking as his father, if anyone killed him I would hope for a life sentence, or better still, a death sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: kendall
Date: 18 May 13 - 06:07 AM

Dorothy, Clyde Barrow is a good example of what happens to a prisoner who has been abused.
While in jail he was brutally beaten by guards, and he vowed to get even. He did, by killing a few of them as they were guarding a work party.Then he just went on a killing spree with Bonnie Parker until they were ambushed.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 May 13 - 07:23 AM

Jack Campin is obviously wrong, as is Nigel Parsons (who thought he might be anyway). And DtG has completely misunderstood Alanabit's point which, in effect, was that the severity of sentence is of little deterrent value so long as offenders can assume they will not be caught.

The US is the only nation on earth which has turned back to capital punishment after abolishing it (de facto if not de jure). There had been no executions in the States for about 10 years when Gary Gilmore was executed by firing squad in 1977, pretty much at his own insistence.

Now the UK is going backwards too, but not that far. For instance Harry Roberts got a minimum term of 30 years for the cold-blooded murder of three police officers in 1966. (as it happens, he is still languishing somewhere in our prison system som 47 years later). Yet Stuart Hazell got a minimum term of 38 years earlier this week for murdering Tia Sharp, and this after the judge took into account mitigating factors. The judge did not take into account, as far as I could see - and I don't know whether he should have done - that Hazell, whose mother was a prostitute, had been brought up in care and raped when he was 16; a typical back-story for those in the prison population, as Eliza has pointed out.

For sure, the UK home secretary was grandstanding. Moreover she knows it's unlikely that her promise will ever be fulfilled. In days gone by she might have played to the gallery by going the last mile and promising to restore the death penalty for the murder of police officers. But she will be aware that the tide has turned. Often cited as a perfect example of parliament making the right choice rather than the popular choice, capital punishment no longer has the UK electorate's overwhelming support. In recent years support has slipped to little more than 50 per cent.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Bill D
Date: 18 May 13 - 02:31 PM

"...support has slipped to little more than 50 per cent.


Ummmm.. that constitutes a majority, if my math is correct.

Rather than phrase that and all the other statistics (Uk AND US) as if they 'obviously' indicate a troublesome and immoral trend, it seems to me that we all need to do some as-neutral-as-possible analysis and studies about what is involved with approval or disapproval of capital punishment.
Why? Well, there are as many reasons for an opinion on the matter as on being a vegetarian. Some eschew meat for health reasons, some for financial reasons, some for moral/religious reasons.... and some for what a friend of mine calls "BBES"-- "Big Brown Eyes Syndrome".
I submit that opposition to capital punishment follows very similar paths, and is variously dependent on class, demographics, age, 'personal experience' ("he killed my father..death is too good for him!") and various forms of pragmatic though(examples above).

Like many other societal issues, this one swings back & forth and gets changed by VOTES... majority 'tends' to rule. Frankly, I don't see any way out of this. When public opinion gets strong enough, death penalties are introduced, banned ...or just 'limited' (why should murder of a policeman BE different than murder of an old man for his pension check?)

I just see too many shallow, knee-jerk opinions on the entire matter. In the US, Texas executes them monthly... in other states, never. Logic indicates one should wait till one's intended victim goes traveling, and do them in in a 'liberal' state (he said ironically).

I do predict that, over the years, advocacy of capital punishment will increase as serious crime increases and prisons get more crowded & expensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 18 May 13 - 05:32 PM

I heard from one inmate that prisoners very occasionally 'execute' an offender for his crime. I can't prove this obviously, but he told me that one or two 'suicides' (eg hanging in a cell) were in fact stranglings by inmates made to look like self-destruction. He told me the names of two who had been reported in the papers (quite well-known murderers) and added that the officers knew very well it was not suicide, but preferred to let it be, in order to minimise trouble. This inmate himself had in fact found a victim hanging in his cell who had been 'dispatched'. When asked what criteria were used to decide whom to snuff out, he mentioned grasses, mass murderers, sex-offenders and child killers, even those who owe large sums of drug-money to a dealer, but no-one in their right mind would object to an inmate who had killed a policeman. Such a criminal would be applauded, not done away with. (I only relate this out of interest.)

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Bill D
Date: 18 May 13 - 06:02 PM

You make my point, Eliza. Different groups in different situation have VERY different opinions about who needs 'dispatching'.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Bobert
Date: 18 May 13 - 07:57 PM

Some cops aren't much better than the thugs who kill them... I'm not implying all or even a majority but a very large number... Especially in the South...

When the KKK was active lots of cops were members... It's only been since 1979 when the KKK opened fire on peaceful demonstrators killing 5 in Greensboro, NC... The cops weren't able, or unwilling, to make a case against the killers...

Always good to keep things in some perspective...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 13 - 08:10 PM

Should there be harsher forms of punishment for police officers who commit crimes while "on duty"?

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: RichM
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:11 PM

Anyone who advocates death penalties,is someone who advocates killing--and that makes them no better than convicted murderers.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Bill D
Date: 18 May 13 - 10:32 PM

Oh POOH, Rich. I could spend an hour pointing out several logical flaws in that, but I won't bother...except to note that equating all 'killing' with a personal definition of 'murder' is absurd.

(ask yourself... at what point in our 2-7 million years of evolution did the distinction arise?)

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 19 May 13 - 04:19 AM

As of last month I no longer inspect prisons or custody suites. I was doing so with HMIP but inspecting healthcare providers on behalf of CQC. Whilst it will never be appropriate to mention anything over and above reports published that were written by me, I was always concerned by a statistic which I feel is relevant to this context.

Of all the deaths in custody over the last 25 years, how many police officers have been made to account for themselves in court?

None.

Even inquiries about people such as Christopher Alder never led to those culpable answering.   

Perhaps the police need to respect the idea that this is a two way street.

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 19 May 13 - 05:21 AM

I do think that generalisations are a bit dodgy, as they inevitably reflect a personal opinion. I don't myself believe that 'a large number of 'cops' aren't much better than the thugs that kill them.', not in the UK anyway. But (and I can only quote the inmates' knowledge, which may or may not be accurate) I've heard that the Met in London and the Merseyside crew can be 'over-zealous' shall we say in the execution of their duties. I have had quite a lot to do with Norfolk Police (not I hasten to add as a malefactor!) and they seem to me to be a most avuncular, patient and kindly set of folk. One of 'my' inmates was a total pain in the side to Norfolk Police,(I'd have strangled him myself at times!) but they were tolerant, had a sense of humour and tried their best to look after him and calm him down. They were sympathetic and knew his problems. Even he admitted after biting some of them (he was a Hep B carrier) that they were a good bunch. I don't think ANYBODY should be 'dispatched' by ANYBODY. But (and this is a big but) you must consider all situations. If my friends' or family's lives were threatened, if I were in terror of my own life, if there were an invasion of War, if someone raped or otherwise attacked a child in front of me, I honestly think I might be capable of killing. It is indeed an instinct, and we none of us know how near the surface our basic reactions are. But execution determined by a Court of Law in 'cold blood'? No.
My ex-Headmaster inspected Police custody units at unannounced times including the middle of the night, and had detainees complain about absolutely everything. Soap 'too dry', bed 'too hard', cell 'too hot' etc. My friend's husband was an official Appropriate Adult and attended Police interviews with vulnerable detainees in custody. He found the Custody Officers and the detectives very, very pleasant and playing by the book. I've been down in the Custody Suite many many times. It seemed to me the Police were like Room Service, running up and down with lights for cigarettes, messages, serving tea and handing in food packs etc. They weren't soft, but they certainly weren't brutal either. (Just a small insight from a quite limited viewpoint, for what it's worth.)

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:15 AM

And DtG has completely misunderstood Alanabit's point which, in effect, was that the severity of sentence is of little deterrent value so long as offenders can assume they will not be caught.

Huh???

Alanabits post - "There needs to be a deterrent. The best deterrent is the near certainty that the culprit will be caught and sentenced. Getting into bidding wars about how much retribution we should extract is futile."

DtG's post - "I disagree. People do not commit crimes expecting to be caught. The deterrent value is negligible in a lot of cases."

Just to put the record straight you understand!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 May 13 - 03:23 PM

That doen't put anything straight DtG. The point was (and you have missed it) that certainty of detection would be a colossal deterrent. Since criminals usually assume, with some justification, that they will not get caught, the punishment to be expected if they do get caught can have little deterrent value. Get it?

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 13 - 05:51 PM

I understand perfectly well, thank you Peter. Certainty of detection would indeed be a huge deterrent. But that option will never exist so why labour the point? I would also add that in a lot of high profile cases, particularly murder, even if detection was certain, the deterrent value would still be negligible. I don't have any figures but I feel sure that a high proportion of murders, which is what we are talking about after all, are done in the heat of the moment. Either panic or passion. Maybe the criteria for sentencing should not be so much who was murdered, but how and why? Fortunately I am not in the position that I have to decide!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Life in jail for police killers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:46 AM

In light of the recent horrific murder in Woolwich, where it was obvious the killers wanted the publicity of being caught and possibly 'martyred' themselves I think we had best rethink the deterrent value of 'the near certainty that the culprit will be caught and sentenced'!

DtG