BS: Unarmed soldier killed, (London-May 2013)

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:39 AM

Ake, I don't know which (if any) British Asian community you know, but it was not representative.

I DO happen to know a bit about Islam, having a flat in Bosnia and a Palestinian Arab partner who was brought up as a muslim. To me you remarks in this thread sound ill-informed, insular and suggestive of a blinkered world view. Overwhelmingly both in the UK and around the rest of the world, muslims will have been horrified and disgusted by the Woolwich killing; much more so, in fact, than I am myself.

My own reaction has been little more than a shrug. Yes, an unarmed man has been brutally slaughtered without any hint of justification. But in all honesty, so what? We now discover that three of the four Americans killed by drones since 2009 were untargeted innocents. If we apply that ratio to all the civilians killed by US drones, we may assume the US has killed many hundreds of innocent people in its misguided and counter-productive efforts at extrajudicial execution. These murders may be done remotely rather than at close range with meat cleavers, but the mess on the ground can be just as bad. Yet according to polls, most Americans are comfortable with this.

So however sickened we may be by the Woolwich slaughter, we should retain some sense of perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: akenaton
Date: 23 May 13 - 12:18 PM

You make a rather good point Peter...and of course I was wrong to say Asians, but we have a large British Muslim population in Glasgow who are very insular. I have spoken to quite a number over the years and gauge their attitude to non Muslims as pretty derisory and certainly most believe us to be morally bankrupt.....often with good cause, but there is no integration possible for cultural and religious reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 23 May 13 - 12:24 PM

Alan. "A decade ago the very thought of such an incident on a British street would have been unthinkable."

Surely you haven't forgotten the murders of Stephen Lawrence and Anthony Walker? Hardly broad daylight middle of town either of them, but the only "crime" any of these victims committed was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, and in the "wrong" ethnic group.

Yes, I agree with Peter K's comments about the damage which Britain and the US are doing in Afghanistan. But the only effect which yesterday's slaughter will have is to deepen the wedge currently being driven between the Christian and Muslim communities in this country. And that of course is exactly what these ratbags wanted, just like their counterparts on the far right.

Strange and sad how fascists and Islamic fundamentalists end up as a mirror image of one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 23 May 13 - 12:31 PM

Akenaton. I can't speak for Glasgow, not having been there for many years, but I've spoken to Muslims all over England and find them anything but insular. In fact the vast majority have been extremely welcoming and friendly. If some Muslims consider Britain to be morally bankrupt, perhaps they've got good reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 23 May 13 - 12:41 PM

"Little more that a shrug", My God almighty, where DO some of you come from. An innocent man is brutally murdered in the street..and you "shrug". Sometimes I do despair.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 01:11 PM

Good point Fred, the point he is making refers to a similar incident occurring before on the streets of the UK in which PC Keith Blakelock was also hacked to death in the line of duty.

Full story here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-10856921

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 01:26 PM

Well said, Fred McCormick.

HiLo, any idea how many innocent people have been killed by US drones, even just during Obama's presidency? Do you grieve for each and every British soldier killed in Afghanistan? Have you the slightest idea how many innocent people have been killed in Baghdad in (say) the last fortnight? Spare me the crocodile tears.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 May 13 - 02:38 PM

My husband (African-born Muslim) was extremely grieved and upset by the events in London. He tells me no true Muslim would ever contemplate committing such atrocities. BUT on arrival here in Norfolk he first attended a smallish mosque where the worshippers were apparently solely from Pakistan and Bangladesh. They were hostile and rude to him, and after eight weeks of unpleasantness he changed to the mosque at the UEA, where the folk, from many countries, were much more friendly and welcoming. The first mosque seemed very 'fundamentalist' (his word) and even racist. At the gym where he's a member there is a Pakistani Muslim couple and the man spoke to him about being more radical and 'active' in Islam. This worried him and he doesn't speak to him any more. He feels that the Asian type of Muslim he has encountered is somewhat radicalised and too fierce, not at all integrated into British life like himself. This isn't a racist opinion, just an observation on his part. I told him to be very very careful not to be sucked in to any 'special group' of over-zealous Muslims, as he may end up being under surveillance etc. It's a minefield for him. Luckily, he's so well-liked in our village and even comes to church with me from time to time that no-one could say he's a 'fundamentalist'. I see on the News that the EDL are on the march, There will no doubt be more of that sort of thing as a backlash after this attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:27 PM

".....The US, the UK and its allies have repeatedly killed Muslim civilians over the past decade (and before that), but defenders of those governments insist that this cannot be "terrorism" because it is combatants, not civilians, who are the targets. Can it really be the case that when western nations continuously kill Muslim civilians, that's not "terrorism", but when Muslims kill western soldiers, that is terrorism? Amazingly, the US has even imprisoned people at Guantanamo and elsewhere on accusations of "terrorism" who are accused of nothing more than engaging in violence against US soldiers who invaded their country.

It's true that the soldier who was killed yesterday was out of uniform and not engaged in combat at the time he was attacked. But the same is true for the vast bulk of killings carried out by the US and its allies over the last decade, where people are killed in their homes, in their cars, at work, while asleep (in fact, the US has re-defined "militant" to mean "any military-aged male in a strike zone"). Indeed, at a recent Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on drone killings, Gen. James Cartwright and Sen. Lindsey Graham both agreed that the US has the right to kill its enemies even while they are "asleep", that you don't "have to wake them up before you shoot them" and "make it a fair fight". Once you declare that the "entire globe is a battlefield" (which includes London) and that any "combatant" (defined as broadly as possible) is fair game to be killed - as the US has done - then how can the killing of a solider of a nation engaged in that war, horrific though it is, possibly be "terrorism"? ..."

From The Guardian - 'Was This Terrorism?'

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:50 PM

Guest Alan: "A decade ago the very thought of such an incident on a British street would have been unthinkable"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhfgQOLSrTQ

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:52 PM

So, because the US and UK kill innocent people it is OK for other people to? The only thing an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth philosophy will result in is a world of blind soup-eaters. To make it clear to the apologists out there, both 'sides' are in the wrong. The only difference is the scale. And if we are talking numbers does anyone have the actual facts of how many people have been killed by the US and UK and how have been killed by the fundamentalists all over the world? I suspect the difference will be minimal but am willing to learn if someone can present the statistics. Bearing in mind that on the side of the fundamentalists we are talking about killing people of their own race and religion if they are a slightly different sect!

DtG

Subject: Obit: A Soldier died yesterday
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:06 PM

I have this from my friend Bill Mitton:

Bill Mitton
I THINK I NEED TO SAY THIS.....

I AM HE
I am he who would welcome you
For I know of my country's freedom
I am he who would bind your wounds
For I know of my country's love
I am he who would feed your hunger
For I know of my land's bounty
I am he who would be your shield
For my home knows no suffering
I am he who would understand your God
For I know and Love my own.
Yet If you have no God
this I to will defend
I am he who beats no martial drum
Nor waves his banner high
I am he who would be a reluctant patriot
For my land has yet to need one.
YET
I am he who holds his freedom precious
And would be savage in it's defence
I am he who know his flag's history
And cherishes it's union.
I am he who holds these islands dear
For I am Celt, Angle, Saxon, I am
Hugonaut, I am Saphardim, I am Ashkanasi
I am West Indian
I am Punjhabi, I am Bangladashi
I am the child of imigrants
I am the son of refugees
My face is many coloured
My heart holds many faiths
And sometimes none.
BUT THIS IS MY LAND
I AM HE WHO HOLDS IT DEAR
THIS YOU SHOULD KNOW.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:25 PM

British soldiers do not commit murder in Afghanistan.
The Independent. August 2012

British soldiers in Afghanistan are being forced to act as bait in an attempt to draw the Taliban into opening fire, a serving platoon commander has alleged.

Soldiers are risking their lives to get round strict rules of engagement that allow them to shoot only if they are being attacked or are in "imminent danger".

The Taliban are increasingly exploiting the rules by hiding weapons in undergrowth near patrol routes – meaning British forces cannot act against them until they actually pick up their guns.

The claims are made by Lieutenant Jimmy Clark , a platoon commander who recently returned from a tour of Afghanistan.

Shocking scenes to be broadcast in a documentary, Our War, on BBC Three this evening reveal how it was only by luck that soldiers survived a bomb while on a patrol nicknamed "Op Bait" late last year.

Lt Clark from 2 Mercian, who was leading the patrol, describes his frustration at the rules of engagement, which led to soldiers acting as bait to tempt the Taliban into attacking them. "It's difficult really to 'fight' an enemy we're not allowed to fight. Under our rules of engagement we can only really return firehttp://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-soldiers-resort-to-baiting-taliban-to-beat-rules-of-engagement-8082165.ht

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 04:35 PM

The Woolwich killers were Nigerian.
Muslims are not being murdered in Nigeria, they are doing the murdering.
CBN
"Islamic fighters have killed scores in multiple attacks on Christian homes and churches. There have been calls for revenge, but also for forgiveness.

Madalla Christmas Massacre

"It was a beautiful day. We came to church to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ," worshipper Uche Bonaventure said.

"People started coming as early as six o'clock in the morning. It was going to be a joyous occasion," recalled Father Issac Achi, at St. Theresa's Catholic Church in Madellah

But it never turned out that way.

"It was five or ten minutes after the first service and suddenly this boom!" Bonaventure remembered.

A suicide bomber in a vehicle packed with explosives drove up a busy street and stopped in front of the church. Bonaventure and his 17-month-old son had just walked out the church's front doors when the bomb exploded.

"The explosion threw me on this side and my son was hurled across the other side. Around me I could see bodies on fire," he told CBN News.

The radical Muslim group Boko Haram claimed responsibility for this attack and several other attacks in various parts of Nigeria last Christmas Day.

The group's goal is to turn Africa's most populous nation into an Islamic country ruled by Sharia law.

In January alone, Boko Haram struck 21 times, killing more than 250 people.

Almost 1,000 have died in recent months in multiple terror attacks around the country.

Two hundred miles north of St. Theresa's church Ester Garba remembers her dedicated husband who was killed in a bomb attack.

"So many people loved my husband. He loved to share the gospel with others," she said.

Isaac Kure's father was killed in the same attack.

"They would not let me see my father's body. He was beyond recognition," he said.

Margaret Frames' husband was also one of the victims of an attack by the radical Islamic group.

"He was shot in the mouth, in the elbow, and in the back. I have not slept very well since that day," she told CBN News.

On Jan. 20, 26 days after the Christmas Day massacre, Boko Haram killed 185 people in a string of coordinated attacks in Kano.
A Boko Haram spokesman has declared war on Nigeria's government, the security services, and the country's Christians.

"I enjoy killing anyone that God commands me to kill the way I enjoy killing chickens and rams," the spokesman said in a video released online.
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/February/Terror-Group-Enjoys-Killing-Nigerian-Christians-/

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:14 PM

Oh dear. What is happening to me? I agree with Fluffy. None of which excuses the attack. And please all remember that Muslim authorities and many Muslim individuals have spoke out to condemn the attack in very forceful terms.

Was there a security failure? I thought I was hearing that the perps were "on radar". And why did the police take so long to arrive?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:51 PM

Keith, are you sure the Woolwich killers are Nigerian? Where have you seen that, and do you know how their nationality has been defined? (Passports? Place of birth?) Your words about muslims doing the killing in Nigeria come just as Boko Haram elements have come under severe pressure from a major government offensive in the north of the ocuntry. Apart from which, your point is fair enough.

DtG, are you counting zealous American Christians among the fundamentalists? If so, you might conceivably be right.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:05 PM

#Woolwich: "Nothing in Islam justifies this dreadful act" (D Cameron)? "Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them" (Repentance, the Koran).

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:10 PM

My poem cum song "Impressions of London in 1997" - http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse/blog/478320652

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:10 PM

The named man arrested is British and born here. His father is Nigerian but lives here (according to BBC News).

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:13 PM

My friend Tarek Fatah on the butchering of Lee Rigby:

U.K. Beheading Shows: It's Time To Fight the Doctrine of Jihad

"While ordinary Britons and non-Muslims around the world are bewildered by these never-ending acts of terrorism, the response of the leaders of the Islamic community is the tired old cliche -- Islam is a religion of peace, and jihad is simply an "inner struggle.""

The Huffington Post

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:26 PM

David Cameron a couple of years ago "The multiculultural state has failed"; me, for decades, "It's our world/our United Nations that should be multicultural.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:29 PM

I think it is important to remember that Christianity has many different sects
As Christianity developed, differences arose between Christians. At the moment there are three major Christian groups (Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Protestant), and many other smaller groups (called sects, or denominations) within these (E.g. Greek Orthodox, Anglo-Catholic, Evangelical, Methodist, Anglican etc.).
The Muslims also have different sects, who have differences.
The people responsible for this murder had the beliefs of ONE SECT of Muslims, it is unfair to blame all Muslims for this murder, or to lump all sects of the Muslim faith together.
The murder of this soldier is no worse than any murder, and no worse than this some of you here.. need to get real.
The Guardian, Thursday 2 May 2013 13.41 BST

Birmingham murder – family of Mohammed Saleem appeal for witnesses
Shazia Khan, left, comforts Nazia Maqsood as they appeal for information over the death of their father, Mohammed Saleem. Photograph: PA

A 75-year-old man stabbed to death yards from his home may have been targeted in a racially motivated attack, according to police.

Mohammed Saleem, who used a walking stick, was stabbed three times in the back as he returned home from prayers at his local mosque in Small Heath, Birmingham, on Monday night.

The blows were struck with such violence they penetrated to the front of his body.

The father of seven also had no defensive wounds in what has been described as a swift, vicious and cowardly attack by the man leading the murder investigation, Detective Superintendent Mark Payne of West Midlands police.

Officers want to trace a white man, aged 25-32, of medium height and build, spotted on CCTV footage running near the scene of the attack around the time it happened, just before 10.30pm.

Police also want to trace a seven-seat people carrier captured on CCTV, driving near the mosque with the two male occupants, both white and in their 30s, who are considered "significant witnesses".

In an emotional family appeal on Thursday, two of Saleem's daughters, Shazia Khan, 45, and Nazia Maqsood, 44, called for the attackers to hand themselves in. They tearfully described their father as a "widely respected member of the community" and "much-loved".

Payne said the possibility it was a racially motivated attack was "a significant line of inquiry" and a large number of detectives were working on the case. "To the attacker I say we will find you and we will bring you to justice," he added.

Khan, who lives in London, said she believed it was "a premeditated brutal attack, pre-planned, intended to kill".

She said: "I cannot see him having any enemies being so full of hate to do this to him. He was an old man – that's what he was. He had no other agenda in his life, it's unacceptable and we just cannot believe an attack like this would happen to him. We just cannot understand it.

"We have to walk past where he was killed and we can visualise it – we have to live with that for the rest of our lives."

Describing her father, Khan said he had worked with youths at the mosque and "was a really good role model and had a great sense of humour, very tongue in cheek". She said people from all walks of life had been paying their condolences.

Khan also had a message for her father's killers: "We don't know who carried out the attack – all we can say is you will be caught and you will be punished and justice will be done, legally.

"I hope they come forward. I hope that anyone who knows this man [seen in Wyndcliffe Road] or the driver in the car, there may be mobile phone videos made of the killing – we don't know. If there's any information people are sharing, every little bit of information is vital that will help catch the killer.

"It is unusual for someone of that description to be in that area. It may not be linked, we don't know, but every avenue has to be covered. We have to all pull together and get justice for my father and anybody else, because this could happen again."

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:35 PM

The detainee was born into a devout Christian family and converted to Islam about ten years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:42 PM

Terry Glavin, Ottawa Citizen columnist, on the killing of 25-year-old Royal Fusilier Lee Rigby:

"Note well that these idiocies about blowback and retaliation do not generally come from the mosques at all. It's the sort of rubbish that comes from out of the mouths of moral illiterates.

It should stop."

Column: Moral illiterates weigh in on Woolwich

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 07:20 PM

I don't think people should make comparisons with the war in Afghanistan with what happened yesterday in Woolwich. Keith Blakelock, a serving police officer was also cut to pieces on a British street with a machete. That was before the British government undertook the current war against Muslim extremists.

Full story here.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Keith_Blakelock

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:21 PM

Glad you remembered that one, Alan. Back up the thread you were saying that nothing like the Woolwich crime could have happened even ten years ago. Anyway, is it Britain 2013 or Britain 1985? Make your mind up.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:28 PM

As I said before Peter, go play yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 13 - 02:46 AM


The hospital where my office sits has over a thousand Muslims working every day saving people's lives

The Glasgow airport bombers included hospital doctors.
The London bombers included school workers.
Their colleagues had no idea they were militants.

Although this pair were known to security as militant would-be jihadists, they could not monitor them because there are "thousands" such known to them.

As Islamic terrorists go, these were remarkably restrained.
All previous have tried to kill as many people as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:40 AM

Bobad...I dont know if you have read of the 7/7 London underground bombings, which were directly linked to British involvement the war in Iraq and carefully planned.

Of course this does not excuse the crime, but gives an insight into the thinking of many politically motivated young Muslims.

Contrary to what you have been saying for a couple of years, we, the UK, should not be involved in these self-serving adventures...such as Iraq, Libya, Syria etc

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 03:43 AM

DtG, are you counting zealous American Christians among the fundamentalists?

I would indeed, as I would count secular extremists or those from any other country or religion. I don't know why you would single out American Christians any more than the others but I suppose you have your own agenda. It is extremism that is wrong from whatever background.

I would like to know if there are any factual evidence that one 'side' has killed more people or been responsible for more atrocities than another. I asked for that before but as none has been presented I guess any such arguments on this thread are, as is usual for Mudcat, speculation and personal prejudice.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:05 AM

Done a bit of digging myself. To try and ensure an unbiased view I consulted an Islamic source - WikiIslam

"Sunni extremists accounted for the greatest number of terrorist attacks and fatalities for the third consecutive year," the report says. "More than 5,700 incidents were attributed to Sunni extremists, accounting for nearly 56 percent of all attacks and about 70 percent of all fatalities."

The report says that in 2011, a total of 10,283 terrorism attacks across the world killed 12,533 people. Terrorism also is blamed for 25,903 injuries and 5,554 kidnappings.

According to NCTC, of the 12,533 terrorism-related deaths worldwide, 8,886 were perpetrated by "Sunni extremists," 1,926 by "secular/political/anarchist" groups, 1,519 by "unknown" factions, 170 by a category described as "other", and 77 by "Neo-Nazi/Fascist/White Supremacist" groups.

The information comes from the 2011 NCTC Report on Terrorism, which is based on information available as of March 12, 2012.

Now, I have done half the work. Can someone let us know how many people were killed by US/UK attacks in the same period? I would be very surprised if it was vastly different.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: akenaton
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:21 AM

I think you miss the point Dave...if I understand what you are saying.

Surely Western involvement has led to the widespead de-stabilisation of the Middle East and North Africa and that has produce religious and ethnic conflict and spread fundamentalism.

Personally, my opinion is that this was not Western stupidity, but a deliberate attempt to gain access to the area.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,musket without sans
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:32 AM

Keith. I shall go and make a citizens arrest on all my colleagues then. Just in case. Then I shall arrest the Christians I work with, just in case.

Then I shall arrest you because I used to employ someone who lives in Hertford and he has a police record.

Doesn't take long in each thread for your veneer of respectability to peel off, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:50 AM

I fully understand that, ake - I don't believe it is an excuse for attacks on anyone though. Surely Gandhi showed us that there IS an alternative didn't he? The point I am making is to those who seem to endlessly repeat the mantra of "America/UK/The west/Christians/Bolivian Unicyclists are even worse." And the point I am trying to make is that extremists are all as bad as each other. Why people cannot accept that there is just NO excuse for ANYONE killing in this way is beyond me.

Oh - And I agree fully that it was stupidity and greed that caused it. On all sides.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:56 AM

Sorry - damn preef rooding - It was NOT stupidity BUT greed etc etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 24 May 13 - 04:59 AM

I think some of you are missing the point Keith is making. He is a British Christian going about his life in a society he contributed to, as did his family before him. If individuals wish to live within an established society they should firstly respect the law of the land, also not expect their cultural identity and traditions to receive preferential treatment. I witnessed people spitting on the coffins of British service men and women arriving home from Afghanistan, I am yet to see or hear a public apology for those actions in any hastily assembled self beneficial news conference.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:08 AM

Please do not try to speak for me "Alan."

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:18 AM

Maybe calmer and more thoughtful heads have decided that more comment would be tantamount to shouting "Fire" in a crowded theatre Alan.

Maybe they also feel that comments such as those by our resident anti liberal, anti traveller, anti gay contributor, would simply amount to an inflammatory challenge and cause more trouble both from other Muslims and our own very nasty racist thugs.

If we let terrorists force us to lower our standards and change the way we live, then they have alreay won!

The simple answer is to break the cycle of hatred, not reinforce it!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 05:28 AM

If individuals wish to live within an established society they should firstly respect the law of the land

I would strongly suspect that those who do not adhere to the law of the land are, in the main, not concerned with political or religious ideology. What would you have us do with them, Alan?

Don, yes, the best answer is to break the cycle of hatred but that is far from simple. Better men than you or I have tried since those that said 'Ug' began to hate those who said 'Nug'. Sadly none have succeeded.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:06 AM

Last century, Gandhi and I repatriated - God knows we were right and the likes of pro-immigrationists, such as Tony Blair, were wrong; my poem on "Land Rights" - http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse/blog/476693050

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:43 AM

""Don, yes, the best answer is to break the cycle of hatred but that is far from simple.""

One thing is certain! It won't be brought about by retaliation. The answer is to initiate an open dialogue between our disparate communities and hammer out a way, not to integrate, but to exist side by side with the culturally different.

Integration into a totally different cultural and religious system is an impossibility, as should be obvious to the meanest intellect.

Multiculturalism hasn't worked because those who tried to implement it don't know what it is.

It isn't enough to pay lip service to the idea, without showing the respect and tolerance which alone makes the minority feel at home, welcome and part of the community.

The young people of ethnic minorities are more readily radicalised when they are treated with suspicion and distrust.

And since the 1950s they have been so treated.

It is past time to change that, which should start at primary schools and continue throughout education.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stu
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:58 AM

Walkabouts, we always have, and always will be a multicultural nation, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Some of my ancestors were Huguenots and came here seeking safety from persecution. Would you chuck me out of the country? At the time, there were plenty of people like you that would have; they were wrong then and they're wrong now.

My impression of the attackers is of two blokes who have lost all sense of perspective and ended up living a sort of religious Walter Mitty lifestyle. The fact they were gullible enough to believe that a horrific attack like this actually means something beyond the fact they have allowed themselves to be brainwashed due to their lack of reason, and they have no ability to question what they're told in any meaningful fashion says more about their character than the perceived lack of integration on the part of the Muslim community.

That said, you cannot divorce foreign policy from attacks like this, especially when one of the attackers themselves explicitly cite this as a motivator for their actions. This is a matter that grieves the Muslim people that live here, and a great many of us that are not religious too. It's dangerous to deny the actions of the UK government are without consequence, although this fact seems lost on the political classes.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:08 AM

The United Nations should finally respect land rights, make all economic/capitalist immigration illegal, and help genuine asylum seekers to their NEAREST safe country. Travel and fair trade are good/imperialism and economic/capitalist immigration are bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:13 AM

>>"Oh dear. What is happening to me? I agree with Fluffy...">>
I knew you couldn't hold out much longer... ;0) xx

"...Mohammed Saleem, who walked with the aid of a stick, was stabbed four time in the back so viciously that the wounds penetrated his chest...."

HATE is HATE...it comes in every colour, in every religion, in every Divisive Hateful Comment. Did WE raise our voices about this? Did WE go to Twitter, as many Muslims are now doing, to say "NOT IN OUR NAME!" ? Or did we simply think nothing, as we were not informed by our Mainstream Media, who are now turning the airwaves into Sounds and Thoughts of Hatred? Did 'Cobra' meet to discuss the death of Mr. Saleem?

FULL REPORT

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:22 AM

Love OUR WORLD being multicultural.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:23 AM

It has not taken long to make this a "Muslim" crime and link it it Immigration.
Last night the Fascists were out on force on the streets of Woolwich milking the incident for all it was worth, and their counterparts here have begun to pop their heads out of their rat-holes already.
Yesterday David Cameron said - rightly - that this was a crime by two sick individuals (or words to that effect).
If this was a "Muslim" crime, then Anders Breivik's massacre was a "Christian" one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:28 AM

Walkabouts Verse....I know you like people to all live in special little 'boxes' from which they must never venture out, but please, wake up and know there is the blood of the world running through your veins...But blackout glasses on, so that you can see NO colours, then just accept PEOPLE as your Brothers and Sisters...

Fuck The Evil Ones, but trust me, MOST people are GOOD and KIND and LOVING.

This world will NEVER go back to your idea of 'each in their own' thank God. EMBRACE the world letting go of all borders, all countries, for trust me, what is coming in the not too distant future, from Mother Nature will have you not giving a fuck about all of this nonsense, whilst possibly ending up begging your Muslim brother or sister for help...

Thank you.

And may I suggest, that as a start on your new path, you fly this flag from your house...


UNITY DEFEATS EVIL - Facebook link

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:29 AM

Many people here don't live in the areas of Britain that are proving problematic. If you face reality you will see that many areas are powder kegs. Watch the interviews with ordinary people on the ground, not the polished politicians or government funded community relations groups. The same message is the repeated time and time again. The change in attitude was reflected recently during council elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:47 AM

Many people here don't live in the areas of Britain that are proving problematic. If you face reality you will see that many areas are powder kegs.

Where do you live, Alan? I live between Keighley and Skipton. I work in Bradford and regularly go out in all three places. Both Keighley and Bradford are amongst those potential 'powder kegs' that you mention and the right wing press are so fond of quoting. Skipton is, possibly, the cultural opposite. Manchester, where I have just moved from and is the home of the unfortunate victim, is multi-cultural to the extreme. The 'change in attitude' of 'ordinary people' you quote is not apparent in any of these areas. The attitude of the ordinary person is just the same. The attitude of the extremist thug is just the same. It is only the press and politicians that are telling us any different.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:58 AM

Dave, I am pleased you find this. As I said yesterday, my brother in law works in the media and his office received an email at 6am what amounted to be a gagging order, who to interview and who not, what to give coverage to and what not, which is why there was no coverage given to buildings attacked the previous evening in three areas of the UK. The reporting of several aspects of this incident still appear artificial and muted. Anyone that thinks there isn't problems in front of us is living in some utopia.