BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 12:25 PM

That's not bad for you, ake. Presuming you meant it to be funny and you don't really think the site is actually written by foxes. Difficult to tell with someone who usually talks though their arse:-)

It is indeed a good idea, Penny. Plenty of advice on there from keeping vulnerable animals indoors to what type of guard dog to use. Not exactly rocket science and far preferable to the yoiks Tallyho brigade.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 17 - 01:22 PM

We'd vote for foxes to be allowed to carry on hunting... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 May 17 - 02:39 PM

the idea i advanced was to have professional fox killers - not that everyone should have access to dum dum bullets.

presumably they would be trained not to kill people.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 17 - 02:42 PM

Greg F Talking garbage as usual?
https://www.thoughtco.com/hunting-accident-rates-127877

For the rifle quoted:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?230138-WWII-rifles-effective-ranges

Penny S Keeping a chicken safe by good husbandry involves making a foxproof run as far as a fox is concerned. Sheep are generally kept outdoors. Putting up deer fencing to keep foxes out present 3 problems.
1)cost. Basic deer fence around 10£/m on flat ground with straight runs. Extra for deviations and inclinations.
2) Trying to guarantee the area fenced has no foxes inside.
3)Sheep farms tend to be large acreage poor quality moorland.
This is obviously a non starter on economic grounds and nothing to do with good husbandry.
The non farmers on this forum are obviously the majority.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 02:51 PM

The non farmers on this forum are obviously the majority.

How do you know? What do you know about me or anyone else? Just about as much as we know about you I guess and from what you have posted you are obviously an expert in bovine based manure if nothing else. I may work in computers to keep the fox from the door (excuse the pun) but my family come from east European farming stock for generations and generations. I live in and with a sheep farming community. About time you stopped your assumptions and looked at some facts. Fox hunting does no good to anyone but the hunters.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 17 - 02:53 PM

I thought the tories were at heart all about nature tooth and claw / survival of the fittest..

Surely they if anyone should admire and cheer on foxes and all other large uncontrollable predators... ??? 🦊

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 24 May 17 - 04:00 PM

D the G We can all claim to be from farming stock for many generations.
So What? As I am pretty much retired I spend most of my time working on a sheep farm, so I do have a slight knowledge of
sheep farming. I would have thought it quite obvious from preceding posts that hunting is a very inefficient way of culling foxes. Most of the time it serves purely to build up their appetites by way of healthy exercise. Also Bristol University makes an issue about standards of husbandry but I find no mention of weather and its impact on outdoor lambing and this can have a major impact on lambing fatalities especially new borns.
One set of statistics:
Abortion/stillborn    40%
exposure/starvation    30%
Disease                20%
Congenital defects      5%
Predation Fox/Dog      5%

To an extent these statistics are meaningless because lambing averages and mortality rates vary markedly between upland and lowland flocks

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 17 - 06:01 PM

Why would a fox website detail anything to do with weather and its effect on lambing? You are not very good at research are you Iains? Although, if you would but care to check you will find links to mortality rates and reasons. Try looking beyond your preconceptions for a change.

Don't expect anyone to be impressed by your claims of sheep farming either bearing in mind your prior record of complete bollocks.

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 May 17 - 06:05 PM

Ians, only a farking idiot - and apparently yourself as well- would employ a .303 on foxes.

Now, go back to "thoughtco.com" and compare the numbers of hunters in the U.S. and Canada with the numbers of hunters in the UK.

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 May 17 - 06:15 PM

...anyway, anyone asked a sheep what they are most worried by...???

Foxes.. or farmers wearing wellies....????? 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 17 - 03:25 AM

Greg F really does not know what he is talking about. Problem with using rifles to kill foxes is that in the UK the restrictions on using firearms means that the opportunities to take a safe shot are rare:

1 - must be a certain distance from a road or any form of human habitation.

2 - cannot fire towards or across a road, public right of way or any building.

3 - there must be a confirmed hard stop (i.e. a hill or banking) behind the target.

4 - the target (a fox in this case) must present a clean kill shot to the marksman which basically means that the fox has to be side on to the marksman.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 17 - 05:05 AM

Greg F The only point I make about using a rifle for taking out vermin
is admirably summarized by Teribus. A 0.303 lee Enfield was quoted as an example purely because it is a weapon most people in the UK have a vague knowledge of.A little less time spent being an idiot and more spent on comprehension may help you.

Dthe G. I believe you introduced the data on mortality in lambs caused by other factors apart from fox predation. Your source made no mention of weather as being one of the leading causes of death.I merely pointed out this omission and gave statistics to illustrate the same. If a fox site wishes to explain all forms of lamb mortality and leaves out one of the leading causes, it is not a very accurate site is it? Perhaps you should do the research and pop out from under your toad stall when you have something significant to add. Your blustering fools no one.

Punkfolkrocker.
Should you ever have the good fortune to meet a sensible sheep it would probably answer: "Both"

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 17 - 05:19 AM

Perhaps you should do the research and pop out from under your toad stall when you have something significant to add. Your blustering fools no one.

You couldn't make it up could you? Someone accuses another of lacking research and blustering and does not even check his own post. What is a toad stall anyway? :-)

Thanks for the laugh. I'm sure it will not be the last.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 17 - 05:25 AM

A Toad stall offer a slightly higher standard of comfort than a toadstool. You should be grateful for small mercies.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 17 - 05:27 AM

All my mercies are small. I am a Gnome you know...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 17 - 05:48 AM

I am gratified to hear it. What else can we discuss?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 06:52 AM

Love Toad Stall! There could be a Toad Stall at one's nearest Car Boot on Sunday. Selling Toad Treats (slugs) and little Toad socks, shady hats and skin products for warts...

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 May 17 - 07:45 AM

Is a toad's stall another name for an amphibian urinal where toads' tools hang out?

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 07:55 AM

Haaaaaaghhh! Very good!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:04 AM

What else can we discuss?

What else is there to discuss on a thread about fox hunting?

From the statistics you provide on lamb mortality -

Predation Fox/Dog      5%

So, there are lambs lost to dogs as well as foxes. If there is a move to reintroduce fox hunting to lower this, which it doesn't anyway, are we also going to see a move to hunt dogs as well? Maybe we could have people in red coats galloping around the countryside chasing dogs and killing them inhumanely?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:17 AM

Okay, let's move on from Toads...

There are things to be said for and against foxes.
They are excellent predators of rats, mice and rabbits. If there were no foxes at all, there would presumably be an explosion of these vermin, requiring trapping and chemical control. Not good for other wildlife (or us!).
But in urban settings, they can be a nuisance. There have been reports of their biting/attacking people when they get into a house (most likely from fear) They drag rubbish about (although, with wheelie bins, it's unlikely they can get inside to rummage)
And if there were ever an outbreak of rabies (God forbid) they would be an excellent vector.
I just love the look of them (Brought up on Beatrix Potter and her Mr Tod) I'm always sad to see one squashed at the side of the road.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:18 AM

As I used to live in rural North Wales, try the video at the bottom of
this page

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:25 AM

It is dual purpose. A means of earning a living while providing shelter.
Anyway to continue the argument:
My take on all this is that if a fox finds a target/s while foraging it will take it, voles, rabbits, chickens lambs etc. I do not think there is a dispute on this. The dispute is what threat this presents to livestock. If I understand correctly, from the little rushed research I have done on this, losses of lambs due to dog/fox predation are low. I think this needs a degree of qualification. I would argue the losses can vary regionally and year to year and probably has a related weather dependancy.A hard winter will diminish other food sources for the fox and weather has a debilitating effect on lambs, making them an easier target. A ewe will endeavour to protect a lamb, but as singles become twins or triplets the job becomes more challenging with less likelihood of protecting all. I think it is a field requiring a lot more study to determine if a fox presence is beneficial or detrimental to the ecosystem it inhabits In conclusion attacks are rarely seen and what may appear to be the aftermath of an attack could be merely scavenging of a carcase.
http://www.discoverwildlife.com/british-wildlife/do-we-really-need-control-foxes-uk

Now seconds out. Round 2

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 08:47 AM

Whatever our likes and dislikes of foxes, there is no excuse for making a sport of killing them - you might aw well turn criminals out to be hunted rather than locking them up (seem to remember a number of excellent classic films noir on that one!
We saw more foxes in London than we ever have in the countryside we now live in - found them a pleasure to behold rather than a nuisance or a danger
They used to nest alongside the main railway lines, especially those running past Wandsworth Prison - once they got used to the sound of the trains it was the quietest and safest place for them - totally isolated from the public
Most reports of them harming children turned out to be urban legends.
One of the weirdest experiences we ever had was in our quietish side-road in Wandsworth, West London
Pat and I were woken up one night by what we thought was a child crying
We looked out of the bedroom window to be met with the sight of a young fox rolling about in the road and emitting crying noises, watched by a somewhat bewildered cat sitting a yard or so away on the pavement.
After a few minutes, the scene became even more bizarre when a woman neighbour from a few doors away emerged and stood in the road in a long, flowing night-dress, as transfixed as we were - a Salvador Dali painting brought to life!
I'd put up with any inconvenience to witness something like that any day
I's stupid to blame foxes for behaving like foxes and attributing morality to that behaviour - I now Sen watches David Attenborough - does anybody else   
As much as it might upset me to see a cheetah bring down a beautiful deer that I am rooting for - that's what natural life is all about.
It's the evil that men do to the natural world that gets up my nose
I get extremely angry when I watch films of polar bears tip-toeing their way over ice that has been made paper thin by global warming, searching for food
That's what I call "not nice"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 17 - 09:28 AM

Greg F really does not know what he is talking about.

Gee, T-Bird- the conditions you quote pertain in the U.S as well, and are observed by any responsible hunter/marksman.

Apparently you're not a hunter and thus have no practical experience?

Greg F The only point I make about using a rifle for taking out vermin is admirably summarized by Teribus.

Yup, Iains, and his "summary" is nugatory.

A 0.303 lee Enfield was quoted as an example purely because it is a weapon most people in the UK have a vague knowledge of.

Oh really? - that rifle was taken out of service in 1957.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 17 - 09:47 AM

Most UK folks these days have far more knowledge of Uzis and AK-47s...

I want one of each to take out that vermin ginger and white cat that shits in our back yard,
and is getting closer and closer to killing all the blackbird chicks
in the nest in our back corner tall shrubby tree thing...... 😠

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 09:54 AM

Water pistol pfr. Better still, one of those large powerful squoosher things children play with. Very effective (voice of experience with Psycho-Cat and his evil mate Ronnie, who are terrorising the neighbourhood round our way)

Foxes can be heard screaming in a blood-curdling fashion during the mating season. The females particularly sound like murder is being committed. Good job we humans don't do that - could be a bit embarrassing!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 17 - 10:05 AM

My wife confiscated and hid my anglers bait catapult..

honestly I'd have only have used dried peas & lentils as pellet shot... 😇

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 10:07 AM

"Good job we humans don't do that"
??????
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 10:28 AM

I mean scream like a banshee when seeking a mate, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 17 - 10:36 AM

My mrs is a south wales valleys girl, but more specifically from a desolate hillside location..

.. you should have heard her mating calls... 😱

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 17 - 11:32 AM

"I mean scream like a banshee when seeking a mate, Jim."
Sorry
Imagination running wild!!
You've obviously never tried making your way through Liverpool on a Saturday night after closing time!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 May 17 - 11:45 AM

Today I will mostly be youtubing songs with the word "Fox" in the title... 😎

gonna be a pretty interesting playlist...

oh yes.. Peter Sellars duetting with The Hollies should kick it off nicely...

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 May 17 - 12:34 PM

I am pleased that both Tory MPs in Croydon constituencies will vote in favour of keeping the current ban on fox hunting.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 May 17 - 01:09 PM

Oh that's heartening news Bonzo! Hope the others follow suit.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Stu
Date: 26 May 17 - 10:46 AM

"I think it is a field requiring a lot more study to determine if a fox presence is beneficial or detrimental to the ecosystem it inhabits"

It's not detrimental to the ecosystem it inhabits, but farmers knock an ecosystem out of equilibrium when they destroy fauna, flora and habitat. In that respect, they're trying to eradicate the indigenous forms to grow new ones.

All animals, including foxes are part of an intricate food web that is basically a flow of energy that starts when a plant captures photons from sunlight and goes up the food web to apex predators; the big beasties that eat the big herbivores. Apex predators create a trophic cascade which limits the abundance and alters the behaviours of prey... for instance deer in Yellowstone changed their browsing habits when wolves were reintroduced in order to look out for them and avoid ambushes. This meant saplings reached maturity, insects populated the growing trees nd the songbirds returned... you get the picture.

A fox is not a natural apex predator although we have forced it into that role as our apex predators are wolves and bears, but we killed the last of those off years ago. However, a fox is still vital to what remains of the ecosystem as they prey on animals that might otherwise get out of control such as small mammals and birds. They are vital to preserving what is left of our indigenous wildlife, as are all our wild animals. That some people think they are a pest is because they occasionally have the temerity to wander into our artificial landscape and opportunistically take prey. They're just doing what foxes do.

The problems the UK is having with deer could be mitigated if we introduced Lynx back to the landscape as Lynx are deer specialists and would control populations that are currently getting out of control and perhaps even make progress in eradicating introduced deer species that do damage to saplings and other native plants. You'd never see them either, they are shy and don't like humans (who can blame them?).

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 May 17 - 03:03 PM

Brilliant analysis, Stu. I have seen the Yellowstone wolf studies and was already aware of the points made. Trouble is here we have the polar opposite 'foxes are evil, tear lambs to bits and kill for fun' brigade and the 'foxes are lovely Basil Brush creatures' crew. Neither will ever see sense. Foxes are part of the nature. Nature is neither cruel nor kind. It is just nature.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 May 17 - 07:15 PM

if we introduced a race of carnivorous kangaroos, they would be able to jump on the foxes and bite the deer....and then with a mighty swing of their tail they could knock the huntsmen off their horses.

problem solved!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 May 17 - 07:39 PM

It wouldn't be half so bad if these "huntsmen," with their fine livery, silly noises, expensively-maintained horses and huge packs of uneconomical baying dogs just admitted what we all already know - that they are doing it for fun and that the very last thing they want is for foxes to be eradicated. A chap with a shotgun (the bloke we have round here is a true countryman called Carl, a great bloke who really understands what farmers need by way of protection for their livestock and crops) is a hundred times more economical. Carl is out just for foxes threatening the free-range chickens and for the very damaging herds of roe deer we have round here (the buggers go for my brassicas too). In fact, just get into your Landrover and drive round the country lanes a bit too fast and you'll kill many more foxes than the twats in red who blood the foreheads of groomed young boys on their first hunt. The most amusing thing I've seen for years was the hunt last year, galloping away manically on the far side of the first forty-acre field between me and Widemouth Bay, while a magnificent dog fox, a couple of hundred yards away from them in the same field, just below my garden, was ambling around insouciantly, glancing at the brainless idiots across the field with the nearest thing to a disdainful foxy look you could conjure in your mind's eye. I definitely sided with the fox!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 17 - 03:00 AM

"if we introduced a race of carnivorous kangaroos, "
Lovely picture Al
I still have fond memrories of the 'Crocodile Dundee' film with an armed 'kangaroos' facing out the brain-dead Aussie lampers.
Maybe a creative horror film maker can dream up a scene with a werewolf taking on a bunch of pink-uniformed chinless wonders....
I'd stand in a long queue to see that one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 May 17 - 04:15 AM

At the Royal Norfolk Show, there are toffs a-plenty. There's even a special marquee reserved for the County Set. They wear cocktail dresses or morning suits, champers glass in hand, and have arrived in Land Rovers. They're obviously well-heeled, and I'm afraid it's these types, mostly, that go hunting.

I'm just a lower middle-class person from working class parents and have nothing at all in common with these people. I used to go drag-hunting on a hired pony, and enjoyed it (no killing involved, just following a scent set by the trailer) But the toffs would have nothing to do with such poor sport.

I do try to cultivate a 'No-Prejudice' attitude to all people, but these sorts are arrogant, with a huge sense of their superiority. Their love of hunting is principally a social thing. The Hunt Ball, the Stirrup Cup, it's a million miles away from 'controlling foxes for agricultural benefit'.

As Steve says, one could merely take out a rifle (a true countryman who knows his stuff) and dispatch foxes humanely. Instead the toffs send an oik round to stop the foxholes up, so the poor animal can't go to earth when fleeing the hounds. Sick and cruel.

Our local crematorium had a problem with rabbits eating the floral memorials. There were scores of the things munching on all the wreaths. So they sensibly got a local chap and paid him to sit with a rifle (silencer attached) all night and pick the rabbits off. They were killed cleanly, and the problem was solved. The same approach could be used with foxes. But of course,it's no fun and Tarquin and Felicity can't dress up and go galloping off on their blood hunters.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 May 17 - 06:05 AM

i know my brother in law suddenly found he'd made quite a few enemies when he forbade the hunt from riding over his smallholding.

its one of those irreconcilables in English society.

a few years ago on mudcat i know i pissed off some Welshmen. itold the story of how i'd taken my roadie, who was an ex-miner to see Dave Guy the singer of Irish material (before we all did it) doing a gig for the Hunt.

needless to say Derbyshire miner/toffs in pinks/ strong drink taken wasn't the greatest recipe for a quiet afternoon listening to music.

THe WElsh guys said I was lying and that lots of miners ride to hounds. They could be right for all I know, never having ridden to hounds.

anyway there aren't lots of miners anywhere now.

now there is an endangered species!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 17 - 12:01 PM

Just been ear-holed by a somewhat angry wife who has been reading an article telling of how Victorian "pleasure parties killed 107,250 Kittiwakes over four months aalong a twelve mile stretch of the Flamborough Coast.
What is it with killing for pleasure' people?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 17 - 01:13 PM

Jim To put things in some kind of perspective check how many animals are killed by cars and how many people are killed and injured by deer in a year.


http://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/747906/england-motorway-roadkill-pig-wallaby-animals-killed-by-cars
( I would like to see a second set of figures to support the quoted statistics on deer-they seem very high)

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 17 - 01:43 PM

Jim To put things in some kind of perspective...how many people are killed and injured by deer...

You're joking surely.

You'd best stick to blasting away at small, furry creatures with Lee-Enfield .303's.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 May 17 - 03:00 PM

No idea Iains (I assume that has some meaning)
How many deer have been killed by cars and if it's less - should we declare war on them ?
This is a bit like Homer Simpson's dolphins!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 May 17 - 03:25 PM

According to the AA, there are on average 400 car occupants injured every year (figures released Jan 2017) in UK in collisions with deer, resulting in 20 human deaths. And 42,000 deer killed each year.

My sis in Scotland has attended at quite a few deer collisions when she was on call at night (Perthshire). Also, one event involving a Highland cow, whose horns shattered the windscreen and pierced the thorax of the unfortunate woman driver, who later died. Scottish red deer stags have huge antlers, and will attack people when in rut.

We see lots of muntjacs dead at the side of the road. And lots of fallow deer run across the road in herds, especially in autumn/winter.

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 May 17 - 03:33 PM

My uncle hit one with his transit van [probably the Quantocks..?]...

Plenty enough space in the back, and room in his freezer... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 May 17 - 04:05 PM

one event involving a Highland cow,

Ach- past time we started huntin' heeland coos w' horses & dogs then!

Subject: RE: BS: 'free vote' about fox hunting?
From: Iains
Date: 27 May 17 - 04:22 PM

Greg F
Before babbling further perhaps you should check the Scottish and English legislation stipulating minimum calibre, minimum muzzle velocity, type of ammunition and weight of ammunition for culling the larger deer species.
If you try very hard you might be able to post something positive one day and amaze us all.