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BS: To Santa or not to Santa?
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: BigDaddy Date: 25 Nov 00 - 01:00 PM Then there's the Christmas Nazi approach of one of my neighbors. She tells her kids if they don't believe in Santa or say they don't, there won't be any presents for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Naemanson Date: 25 Nov 00 - 01:12 PM Well I survived the holiday and that is not an understatement. I have a long story to tell and I want to answer specific points in the discussion to date so I will break this post into two segments. This one will answer points and the other will tell a rather tragic story. It involves a death in the family (a pet) and what you tell the 6 year old girl who has just lost her dog.
Homeless asked: Actually my technique with these important questions is to turn it back on the child. I don't know any more than s/he does so we explore the question together. We look at the literature, movies, and music and try to figure out what Santa is and does. We all recognize the guy in the stores as a "helper" but make no guesses about the reality of the old gent. My kids have never asked about either the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy.
mousethief Date: 22-Nov-00 - 04:50 PM We perpetuate the myth for our own gratification. It keeps us believing that the kids are not actually growing up and away from us.
mousethief Date: 22-Nov-00 - 05:14 PM "Kids learn to distinguish between fiction and nonfiction at a very early age. "real" and "pretend" are an important part of the 1st grade vocabulary…" This is one of the grand adventures of youth. My 6 year old niece is having some trouble with this. She has invested a lot of worry in the fact that Darth Vader is a dad but is also evil. And we have invested a lot of effort in trying to make her see the difference between that fiction and the fact of her own father and the rest of the fathers in the family. Spaw, your tale of your father was great. I'd say mine is a little like him. And so am I in a way. Once upon a time, when they had learned the purple cow rhyme, I served purple milk at supper. They still remember that. Guest mentioned hearing sleigh bells. That was part of my own youth. I remember waking on Christmas in the early morning hearing bells. It is a valued part of my personal history. Amergin, your picture of Mousethief was not funny… well OK, it was a little funny but not fair. He is only standing up for what he believes and participating in a serious discussion… oh never mind, he can defend himself and it was funny too. Sorry Alex. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Naemanson Date: 25 Nov 00 - 02:05 PM And this is our Thanksgiving tragedy. You must understand the farm is heaven for kids and dogs. The buildings stand up on a hill well back from the road and are surrounded by overgrown fields. The farm hasn't been a producing farm since before my family bought it in 1967. About a half mile back over open fields and second growth woods is Hannigan Pond. At home for the holiday were my oldest sister and her two kids and their dog. Also there were my youngest sister and her daughter and their dog. Living at the farm are my parents and their three cats and three dogs. So we had 9 people, three cats and five dogs. On Thursday morning the dogs went out as usual. Emma, a small black and white lab and shepherd mix, and Annie, a lovely Irish Setter, played together in the yard. After a while, as kids prepared to go out for a walk they were missed. Search parties fanned out. It was my nephew that found them. They had made their way down to the pond and broke through the ice about 30 feet out from the bank. He and my oldest sister manhandled a canoe 200 hundred yards through the woods to the spot closest and broke through ice to rescue them. Annie was already gone and Emma had just given up the struggle and was no longer swimming. They rushed her back to the farm house and began the revival. My sister changed into some dry clothes and she and I went back for Annie. We knew it was too late but we had to try. My other sister was distraught and my niece was inconsolable. Annie was indeed gone. We got her out of the water but she was dead. By the time we reached shore my nephew was back with my daughter and they helped us haul her up through the woods to the trucks in the clearing. It was a sad day and this is the point of my story. What do you tell a 6 year old kid who has just lost her dog? Fortunately the ground was not yet frozen. We dug a nice deep grave for her in a corner of the garden. Little Addie and her grandfather made a headstone that said "Beloved Dog, Annie" on it. Addie also drew a heart with a picture of a dog. Then my daughter and I went down to the clearing with a blanket and brought Annie home. My daughter combed her hair and made her look as pretty as she could and then we led Addie over to say goodbye to Annie. She was very solemn and petted her. Then we covered Annie with the blanket and lowered her gently to her rest. My sister spoke of what a good dog Annie was and how much she would be missed. We told Addie that Annie was resting now and would become part of the farm. I told her that Annie would continue to live in her heart and in her mind as long as she remembered what a good dog Annie was and how much she had loved her. I pointed to the location of the grave and how pretty it would be in the springtime. She has all the resiliency of a 6 year old. That evening she was alternatively full of fun and then sad and withdrawn. Next morning she crawled into my lap and solemnly announced that she wanted her dog. What would you have done? |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Nov 00 - 02:13 PM Ya' done good ......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Nov 00 - 02:16 PM Sorry, that's not an answer, but its a wonderful story and everything you did I would believe of myself....or at least want to. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Terry K Date: 25 Nov 00 - 06:22 PM I'm a little concerned that Mousethief may be badly needing some attention. He suggests that he has been subject to abuse in this thread and accuses we participants of being "nasty and mean-spirited". I'm blowed if I can find either nastiness, abuse, or evidence of meanness of spirit. What I have found is a reasonably light, though serious, sensitive and mainly humorous discussion on the original point and some of its digressions - in other words, a typical Mudcat thread. Is there something I'm missing? Terry |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Homeless Date: 27 Nov 00 - 09:59 AM Naemanson - I salute you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Kim C Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:00 PM Oh, Naemanson, I am so sorry about the dogs. I have two that I love very, very much and one is now getting old nad having trouble getting up and down the stairs. It breaks my heart but I know she can't stay forever. I think you did the very best thing you could. Mrs. Duck - I think Clement Moore's Santa wore a red suit too. But shame on me, I don't remember off the top of my head. Now, y'all be sweet. There's room for everyone, whether they love Santy or not. Merry Christmas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: MMario Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:08 PM "He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot, and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot" - - Can't think of any animals I know with red fur... |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Kim C Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:45 PM Thanks MMario. I couldn't remember if it was the poem itself, or the illustrations that usually accompany it! So what we are actually dealing with here is the Old-World Mountain Man Santy Claus.... I have a couple of books of Victorian scrap (you know, to cut out and paste on things!) and those Santys are wearing just about every color you can imagine... red, green, blue, brown, white... I don't think any of them are wearing fur except for trimmings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: MMario Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:52 PM I find it fascinating that Clement Moore's "Saint Nicholas" - (which is how he refers to him) is described. He's not the nifty neat clean sanatized "Santa" - He is dressed (as I qouted above) ALL in fur, from head to foot, much as there are illustrations of Father Christmas who I have frequently seen portrayed in fur. Not just fur trim, fur clothing.AND he's covered with soot. Logical, of course, given that he spends all night climbing up and down chimneys. But how many Santa's do you see with scuffmarks on their boots, let alone soot stains? on the other hand "a right jolly old elf" and "his eyes how they twinkled, his dimples how merry" makes him sound more like Shirley Temple!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: annamill Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:53 PM Gee, this was not a problem for me at all, but, then, I had always told my children the truth when asked. When they were little we pretended there was a Santa and many of their gifts were from Santa. This, incidently, annoyed me because I always thought that credit should be given where credit was due, and it wasn't Santa that had been out there shopping and wrapping those gifts, but he got all the credit. Well, we marked some from Mom and Dad. Well, anyway, when my little ones came to me with the "question", I guess they were about 6 yrs. old at the time. (eight years apart, so this was done at two different times) I took them aside in a whisper and told them that he wasn't a real person, but we pretended he was real because it was so much fun for everyone to pretend to believe. Now, this brought them into an exclusive club of the adults and they both maintained the facade for quite awhile and helped to perpetuate the fantasy for those who were younger then themselves. They still get gifts marked 'From Santa". For us, it was the perfect solution. Love, annamill |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Whistle Stop Date: 27 Nov 00 - 01:05 PM First, thanks for this thread, Alex. While there was a little nastiness along the way, I think most of the discussion has been positive and enlightening. Like others who have posted, I think that when kids ask you a direct question, they deserve a direct answer. My youngest (of three) is still a "believer," but is fast approaching the time when he'll start to question the myth. He'll let me know when he's ready. Until he's ready, I won't tell him, but I also won't go to any elaborate measures to prop up the myth. When it's time, this pleasant little story will die. I don't think I'd be doing my child any favors by trying to keep the myth alive once its time has come. With my two oldest, I tried to cushion the blow by bringing them in on the game, appealing to their better natures not to spoil things for their younger siblings and friends. They responded well; they recognized that they had crossed a threshold of sorts, and now had a responsibility to maintain the magic for the younger ones. A few conspiratorial winks were exchanged, and the magic went on, for all of us. Now as far as God is concerned, I consider that to be dependent upon one's definition. When my kids ask me that one, I talk about the various definitions of God, and explain that each of us gets to make up his own mind about that. As long as the vocabulary is age-appropriate, the kids seem to understand this concept just fine -- they're always smarter than we expect them to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Kim C Date: 28 Nov 00 - 11:49 AM Yeah. It is fun to pretend to believe. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:47 PM I like Christmas. I like the tradition of it all. And I was quite happily believing in Father Christmas until I was about 9 years old and my primary school teacher informed me that he didn't exist. I remember crying a bit about it to my mum but it confirmed my sneaking suspicions. Of course, I had to pretend for the sake of my wee sister, and so at the age of 24 I am going to go home safe in the knowledge that Father Christmas will leave a present out for me on Christmas morning, even though my 22 year old non-Santa-believing sister will be across the ocean in Boston. Somehow our family just kept doing all the Christmas traditions, although my daddy stopped writing the shakily-printed letters from Father Christmas, and chewing on Rudolph's carrots to make them look gnawed. Cynical atheist I may be, but I'll still light the candle in the window to guide the Christchild home, I'll still listen to carols on Christmas Eve, I'll still waken my parents on Christmas morning for our present opening ceremony (not just tradition - I have no patience), and I'll still sit beside the fire and read "The Box of Delights" for about the 17th time. Bliss! |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Kim C Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:49 PM What's The Box of Delights? I've never heard of that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: GUEST,John Leeder Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:51 PM We always treated Santa Claus as a sort of game played between the adults and the children. When the children became old enough to suspect that it *was* a game, they went along with it for a while because it was fun (and also because they wanted to keep getting presents...). At a certain point they would be co-opted to play for the adult side ("Don't spoil it for your little brother."), which made them feel grown-up about it. Even the youngest has younger cousins (and possibly soon nieces or nephews), so it has been possible to bring him in on the adult side. I feel confident that my kids will keep the game going when they have children of their own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: GUEST,John Leeder Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:54 PM I wrote that before I saw Whistle stop's post -- he said the same thing, only more articulately... |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Whistle Stop Date: 28 Nov 00 - 01:04 PM Thanks, John; I thought you articulated it just fine. -- Whistle Stop (lurking) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: mousethief Date: 28 Nov 00 - 01:25 PM Naemanson, I'm not sure what your comments about the differences in opinions about God are meant to show. They certainly don't come as news to me. But the question was asked how I deal with it when the kids ask if there's a God, vis-a-vis my opinions about what to tell them about Santa. I tell them Santa is not real because I don't belive Santa is real. I tell them God is real because I do believe God is real. I guess I fail to see what your comments bring to this distinction. Sure there are people who don't believe in God, and when their children ask if there's a God, I figure they'll tell them No. That's their right as parents, and may it never be that the government takes away our right to teach our children our own beliefs (again -- it did happen in Alaska immediately after the purchase, when native children were torn away from their parents and brought up in boarding schools and force-fed Presbyterianism, which was NOT the faith of their fathers/mothers). We talk a lot in our family about people of differing beliefs, and what different people think about God, and my wife and I try to present as well as we can what people in other religions/belief systems/etc. believe about God. We encourage the kids when they want to visit their friends' churches, and keep books in the house about different religions so they can read about them if they are interested. So it's not like we're teaching the kids there is no other way to believe, and no other "slant" on the God thing than our own. I don't mean to drag this thread off into a different direction, to hijack my own thread so to speak, but then again I wasn't the one who brought up God. I am trying to respond to what others have said.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Naemanson Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:22 PM You're right MT, it looks like Rick got us started on God. But he used a lower case spelling. What are you trying to say, Rick? *bg* And my comments were meant to show that there are different ways to approach God and religion with our kids. In our family we were taught that such things existed in other peoples' lives and were left to find our own way. Of my four siblings one is now a Catholic. The rest are still undeclared. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: mousethief Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:05 PM Fair enough. I was raised in an overtly non-religious home, and am now an Eastern Orthodox Christian. I was responding to what I perceived (maybe I'm just touchy, as Terry K so rudely suggests) as a disparagement of my handling of religion with my kids, and wanted to make it clear that we are not "brainwashing" them to think the whole world thinks the way we do. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Naemanson Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:53 PM Oh no, Alex, I would never try to second guess a parent in this kind of question. We can only raise our kids as we see fit and there is no one qualified to judge us on that score. And kids are pretty resilient. They can bounce back from anything we do "wrong". |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: annamill Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:31 PM I'm not a believer, but I never forced that concept on my kids. I let them know how I felt, but made it clear that this was something they must decide for themselves. I never approched the idea of religion with contempt when it was being discussed and my children know I respect other's beliefs. As a result, I have one strong believer and one non-believer. (never mind which) I do get upset, though, when religious people do not give their children the same option. MT, I appreciate your open-mindedness with your children. Thank you for letting them think for themselves and showing them the alternatives. Love, annamill |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: mousethief Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:44 PM It's really just enlightened self-defense, Annamill. I knew a kid who was raised in a very religious home, went to Christian schools K-12, and then when he got to college and discovered that there were people in the world who didn't believe the way his family/church/school did, it totally freaked him out. Last I knew he was a rabid nihilist/existentialist atheist, and, alas, not very happy. I think being more open about the whole thing makes the kids not only more open minded about others (whatever they ultimately decide to believe for themselves), but also less likely to reject their birth-religion (so to speak) for stupid reasons. (Stupid reasons might be, to shock the parents, boredom, etc. The only good reason to change religions, IMHO, is because you think the new one is TRUER than the one you're leaving. Of course this is open to disagreement too; others might have a different set of "good" and "bad" reasons for changing one's religion!) I knew a man who was a Moslem, and moved to the USA, and his son (perhaps to shock dad, perhaps not) told him he had decided to become a Christian. The dad was (to my mind) a smart man. He said, "you may do so, but if you are going to become a Christian, you are going to become a REAL Christian, not somebody who pays his religion lip-service and only goes to church on Easter and Christmas." So maybe, by being a little more open and honest about the existence of other religions and worldviews, we're opening the door for the kids to bolt as soon as they get the chance. I don't know. But it seems better than the "brainwashing" method, at least in the areas of honesty and respect. Which is my bugaboo with Santa, of course, that honesty thing.
"What a shabby state we're in." Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: MiriamKilmer Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:23 PM MMario wrote: "He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot, and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot" - - Can't think of any animals I know with red fur... --- Foxes are red. Okay, not THAT red... One can dye fur, though. --- Naemanson wrote: > We can only raise our kids as we see fit and there is no one qualified to judge us on that score. And kids are pretty resilient. They can bounce back from anything we do "wrong". --- I've been bouncing for a great many years because of the things my parents did wrong. I can't say that I have bounced back. However, what they did wrong had nothing to do with Santa Claus, so I'll save it for another discussion if any. My family just had an email discussion on the subject of what to tell your kids about Santa Claus, and nearly came to blows. We made up, though. Merry Christmas. I still believe. By the way, if you're looking for a heart-warming Christmas story, the live-action "The Grinch" isn't it.
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 29 Nov 00 - 05:46 AM Kim C - "The Box of Delights" is a fantastic (in both senses of the word) children's book by John Masefield set at Christmas time, about a young boy called Kay Harker who meets a mysterious Punch and Judy man. He finds himself drawn into a wonderful and magical mystery when the Punch and Judy man gives Kay the Box of Delights which can conjure up all mystical things and whisk people back in time. It's a lovely and Chritsmassy book incorporating all kinds of myth and legend. Well worth a read. It's up there with "The Children of Green Knowe" and "the Wind in the Willows" as books I really loved as a child because they remind me of Christmas (I was probably given them for Christmas, which would explain the association...). |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Kim C Date: 29 Nov 00 - 03:32 PM splendid! I am going to go look for it. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: GUEST,John Leeder Date: 29 Nov 00 - 05:13 PM Christmas is a vast and complex celebration. It's possible to get a great deal out of it even without participating in the overtly Christian component or the overtly commercial component. There are lots of very powerful myths connected with Christmas, and, as myths, they have power even if you don't believe they're literally true. As an non-commercial agnostic, I still find lots to enjoy at Christmas just by suspending disbelief for a bit. |