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BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: radriano Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:51 AM As has been noted in many of the other postings to this thread, there are many different kinds of pornography. I find some pornography enjoyable - it certainly is safe sex these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: harpgirl Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:51 AM ...Mrs. Duck, you made me laugh out loud! Madam Duck, indeed! Hey Mattie...would you like some cheese with that whine? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Mooh Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:57 AM When I clicked on Guest Vicki's link I was repeatedly assaulted by unwanted images and advertising, ending with an ad which eclipsed my whole screen and the only way I could get out was to shut down my computer. That's what I get for being a smartass? Maybe if I'm not the only victim the mayor of Mudcatville could intercede and erase the link? Still alive and well. Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: GUEST,Matt Date: 29 Nov 00 - 11:02 AM Yes, some havarti, please. No really, it's the truth! I don't give me that "just sint to them" malarky. I tried...they talk over me. So what else can a poor boy do? Maybe someone will like me around the same time we get a new president. But until then..."All I've got is a photography..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Jeri Date: 29 Nov 00 - 11:11 AM Mooh, there's a warning by a JoeClone in that message. The link only messes up people's computers if they click on it. (No, I haven't tried it. I'm not curious enough, and I hate pop-up windows...so to speak.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: SINSULL Date: 29 Nov 00 - 11:49 AM Midchuck, Not all women in porn. Just the films my son had. They were imported from from Eastern Europe. The women were emaciated, obviously drugged, covered with bruises. Nasty business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: mousethief Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:14 PM Whistle Stop, good call. I'd far rather my teenagers watch a movie with nudity and sex than with people getting blown up. Nudity and sex are normal and natural parts of life, which they will discover and enjoy as they grow up. Killing and destruction are not and should not be. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Willie-O Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM Guess we've all succumbed to the lure of curiosity now and then...somewhere there must be erotic material on the net and elsewhere that isn't all:
W-O
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: GUEST,Matt Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:42 PM Willie, it's out there, as Mulder would say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:57 PM Perhaps we should actually thank the porn industry for technical development on the Internet, as they're the ones who came up with streaming video and other lucrative methods which pushed technology forwards and kept creating new and better software due to demand... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Willie-O Date: 29 Nov 00 - 01:15 PM One could also thank Dow Chemical and Gen Wm Westmoreland for their contributions to herbicide technology...I think not. It's a video world, they're going to improve the net's capabilities to deliver it with or without porn. So, Matt, if it is there, where's the blue clicky? Like I said, I'm not going looking. W-O |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bat Goddess Date: 29 Nov 00 - 02:11 PM Just an added thought, I think the I.W.W. (yes, they're still around) is the only organization actively unionizing "sex workers," who deserve fair and safe working conditions just like everyone else. Yay, Wobblies! (Although "Workers of the world, unite" might need to be rephrased in this instance.) Bat Goddess |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Mooh Date: 29 Nov 00 - 02:20 PM Jeri, I know, fire is hot, don't touch. Ouch! Don't touch. Ouch! Don't touch. Ouch!...I just didn't think it would be THAT hot. Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Jeri Date: 29 Nov 00 - 03:15 PM Mooh, it's the Pandora's Box thing...not THAT box, guys. You see something that says don't lick...click this, and you gotta click it. I'm just too paranoid about inter..internet, er - going to somebody's website and getting probed in ways I don't wish to be probed and possibly getting infected by something. Gotta take care of that hard drive. Willie-O, "closeups of sexual organs colliding, without faces" ??? If they HAD faces, it would be friendlier, but definitely weird. I agree with what you said though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Thyme2dream Date: 29 Nov 00 - 03:36 PM In the middle of all of this fascinating discussion, Mole said something which sang out loud and clear in my spirit..."The theft of innocence is always wrong". I fought long and hard when I was a teenager to stay innocent as long as I could...even naive if you will. I didn't grow up in a moralistic household, so I can't really say that it was parental influence-but at that time in my life I was not ready for all the images that the evolving culture was throwing at me in school, in films, and even to some extent on TV. I count myself fortunate that I was able to steer clear of a lot of the influences that tried so aggresively to rob me of my innocence. I was able to explore the passionate side of my nature at my own pace, with out being forced or coerced into somthing I wasn't ready for because I made such an effort to be a "prude". In many ways, I think I am a lot more well adjusted than many of my friends who used to tease me about being a prude all the time. To me,Porn is not 'wrong' when an adult (or probably even a teenager who's curious) seeks out a video or a website or magazine...I agree that for some folks it's a very healthy release, and for couples a fun way to spice up an evening. It's when its in your face (yeah like Vickie, but I didn't click!)and you can't get rid of it...or when it's a challenge or a threat, like so often happens in "peer pressure" situations. Much of the porn industry relys on FORCING the issue, getting people hooked on it and working that addiction for all it's worth. That is when it becomes wrong in my eyes...When I walk into a conveience store with my boys and they are embarrased and uncomfortable because of the rack of porn right next to the checkout stand. They have a right not to see it if they so choose...at least not with mum around (Im not THAT naive!) One other question this whole subject brings up in my mind...maybe we are so 'obsessed' with sex as a society because there are deeper spiritual forces at work within our sexual natures than just the obvious physical gratification. There are many philosophies, Christianity included, that are very adamant about sex not being merely a physical, but also a spiritual joining--that sex influences a person on many levels--even just the "cheap" variety. I really think this maybe true, and that it is as real as the law of gravity..which we can't see, may not understand, but affects us every day nonetheless. Just a ponderment, but I believe there is more to it than meets the eye (pardon the pun)! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Thyme2dream Date: 29 Nov 00 - 03:47 PM Oh..BTW, Matt, you're making me cry again...:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Seth Date: 29 Nov 00 - 03:48 PM Someone said that the difference between erotica and pornography is lighting. If you have images that look like bad polaroids with ( by miidle class standards) unattractive people and cheap settings, that's porn. If the lighting is well done, that's erotica. If the lighting is really well done, that's erotic art. Who knows what deals are negotiated before the cameras start rolling, either with porn or with anything else. Having had most of my education courtesy of the Sisters of Saint Joseph, I've had an interest in porn most of my life. I like the net because there are many, many choices available, from the tackiest to the most abstractly elegant. There are several sites and information sites run by women with honest and often funny takes on sex and sexuality. I used this to set up a non-pornographic sex information file for my kids, which they can use anytime they want.The only place I have ever seen images of children as sexual objects was in one shop in Amsterdam, where it was quite openly displayed. On the scale of evils of this century,even if you thought it was wrong, it would have to rank pretty far down the list. Cheers Seth from China |
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Subject: NO WAY!!! From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 29 Nov 00 - 04:34 PM "I'm just a regular Joe with a regular job I'm your average white suburbanite slob I like football and porno and books about war I've got an average house with a nice hardwood floor My wife and my job, my kids and my car My feet on my table, and a cuban cigar" ---Dennis Leary--- And well... If it's good enough for Mulder, It's good enough for me... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Naemanson Date: 29 Nov 00 - 05:15 PM Thyme, you are right about Mole's point. I have worked hard to let my children enjoy their childhood. It may be because I can enjoy a second childhood myself through them. Or it just may be that I want to be sure they have the opportunity to have a clearly defined time in their lives when they were children. So far it's worked fine. But they know that when they decide they are ready for sex they should not feel guilty or in any way bad about it. They have been trained in how to avoid disease and pregnancy. These conversations make them very uncomfortable but they are very necessary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bill D Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:05 PM web sites without obnoxious tricks, and with artistic content do exist.... these are safe, and not 'terribly' controversial...(I simply went to a site where people post these, and have already done the work for me...) there were a few 'stronger' things there, but I'd rather not put those in a thread here....(I did NOT make them into clickys on purpose, so that anyone who wants to look must copy and paste them...*smile*...
http://www.debenport.com/
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Wavestar Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:47 PM One of the things I think is important to remember is that, as Thyme2dream hinted, naivete and innocence are not the same thing. As I was going through my teenage years and gaining experience, someone once tried to convince me that I was no longer innocent, that is, I was corrupted, 'guilty' of something dirty. I was horrified and deeply upset until I had a series of realisations regarding this. Firstly, by my own religious standards, I stand innocent in the eyes of God, and who else in this world REALLY matters to judge me? Secondly, innocence was not something I could lose that way. My innocence was a matter of attitude, not a matter of exactly what I had done and hadn't. Did I FEEL dirty, and corrupted? Was I jaded? Had i lost that sense of joy and sacredness in the area of sensuality I was exploring? No. In what way, then, was I not innocent? I was not IGNORANT, not naive. But I commited no crime, my intentions were those of love and mutual, considerate, slow and careful exploration of a natural part of human life. I was not *guilty* of anything. I had only lost my innocence if this person succeeded in making me believe that this innate, spiritual, special and transcendant quality had been lost. Loss of innocence requires disillusionment, pain, cynicism, and anger. I've experienced all of those, and certainly lost some innocence there, but as much of as I can hold onto, by rejecting cruelty, cynicism and not holding onto things that hurt me, I will keep around me like a blanket, or an aura, if you will, protecting me from believing that I am evil and corrupted. Because I'm not. As hard as it is to believe sometimes, innocence cannot be stolen. People have to be convinced they've lost it, and give it up. That's exactly what degrading pornograhpy, and especially graphic violence do, as well as much of the sex industry, prostitution, etc. Victims, and children, are innocent by nature, no matter what they've seen. Just make sure they know that no one can steal it from them without their consent, as unwitting as that may be. -Jessica |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: The Shambles Date: 30 Nov 00 - 02:09 AM Is guilt the real turn-on? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 30 Nov 00 - 02:44 AM To the really intelligent, GUILT doesn't even exist... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Naemanson Date: 30 Nov 00 - 06:34 AM The book I mentioned in my earlier post is Working Sex - An Odyssey Into Our Cultural Underworld by Marianne Macy. The author is a journalist. The book is an expansion of an article she once wrote for New York magazine. It appears to be out of print. The director I mentioned is Candida Royalle. Fortunately the Ratbrat Cat is better at finding things than I am. She knocked something over and there was the book. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Little Neophyte Date: 30 Nov 00 - 07:52 AM Well guys, you have helped me make my decision. This porn thread is so popular. Why I only got 3 people posting to my latest music thread on Video Instruction Vs Real Instructors. I must be putting my energies in the wrong place. How about I become a The Banjo Porn Queen. I'll do it with the banjo and then discuss it in a thread. That should get a better posting response. :)Banjo Bonnie Baby
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Grab Date: 30 Nov 00 - 08:07 AM Brings to mind a "Vicar of Dibley" script, roughly as follows:
" Jim: Nonononono... I thought I'd have a phone-in talk show? Geraldine: OK, and what are you going to talk about? Jim: Nonononono... "Is sex with poodles always wrong?" Geraldine: I see... And you've found someone to speak on both sides of that argument?
Owen: He certainly has! Sorry, this go right over the head of anyone outside of the UK who's not seen VoD. Grab. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Troll Date: 30 Nov 00 - 08:07 AM The mind boggles. GO BONNIE! GO! Uh, won't the ends of the strings....never mind. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bagpuss Date: 30 Nov 00 - 08:34 AM In my moral world something is wrong if it hurts another person and is done knowing that it hurts another person. So if your partner doesn't mind then its ok, but if you insist on using it even though you know your partner gets very upset by it, then you might be doing something wrong. Also, although some women in the porn industry have made a free choice to be there, many others got there by a very difficult path. Abuse in childhood, leading to prostitution and earning a living by pornography, because they think its all they are worth. If you could see the life history of the person you were looking at, then sometimes you might not get so turned on. Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: John P Date: 30 Nov 00 - 08:49 AM Isn't it strange that movies labeled "For Mature Audiences" so often are really for the immature among us? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: mousethief Date: 30 Nov 00 - 10:56 AM I've noticed that, John P. And "Adult" bookstores are for those with an adolescent preoccupation with sex. What a funny language we have. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: annamill Date: 30 Nov 00 - 01:49 PM and just what is wrong with an adolescent preoccupation with sex, MT? L.A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: mousethief Date: 30 Nov 00 - 02:07 PM Nothing, in an adolescent. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Penny S. Date: 30 Nov 00 - 03:49 PM So glad that it was men who made the point about adults. I hate going into a newsagents and finding Adult Interest and Women's Interest as separate. And neither including Scientific American or New Scientist. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: GUEST,Alliekatt Date: 30 Nov 00 - 04:09 PM I'm a woman and I love pornography. (I just don't cover it up with the term "romance novel"; you know, the ones with the day-glo pink and violet covers with fleshpots gripping one another on the front. Just give me the pictures and be done with it, thank you.) Providing it's not the gross or violent sort. But then I have de-conditioned myself against the sort of social foolishness that makes women looking at pornography an "unladylike" thing. Out of this my own tastes have taken on a "womanly" fashion. I love art porn like the classic bawdy Decameron prints or French illustrations from the 18th century; the Rembrandt prints and the wonderful, humorous paintings by Francois Boucher; the x-rated frescoes of Pompeii and Herculaneum, and the exceedingly sexy sketches of Klimt and Von Zichy. Few people have seen these works, and most of them are pretty darn detailed; some more so than your standard Hustler close-up shot. But there's something of humanity in them that makes them more than just models spreading it out. It's the joy and the passion that the artists inject into the work. Maybe that's what women are looking for. When we women say we aren't into pornography, maybe what we are saying is that we want something better than pornography. Spice it up a little. Make it interesting. Let us know that there's more than mechanistic satisfaction at stake. Alliekatt |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Little Neophyte Date: 30 Nov 00 - 04:30 PM Good point Alliekatt about making the real act 'interesting and spiced up'. For me, it would be make it a meaningful moment of connecting. If a man were to watch porn while we were having sex it would feel like he was jerking off inside of me. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: kendall Date: 30 Nov 00 - 05:46 PM I'm a flaming liberal..'nuff said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bill D Date: 30 Nov 00 - 11:13 PM ...so, Alleykat...do you know about Betty Dodson? she has been promoting women's sexuality for 25-30 years...very famous in some circles......she is quite 'explicit'...but did a lot of good in the old 'repressed' days |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Gary T Date: 30 Nov 00 - 11:29 PM Now, surely you all realize that "mature" and "adult" in this context means having reached a certain age, the stuff obviously being legally prohibited to minors. Other meanings of the terms, as used in other contexts, are irrelevant to these labels. What's next, the old "Why do we drive on the parkway and park in the driveway?" Compliments of your resident curmudgeon. (Not done with intent to belittle anyone, but come on, it's a lame point. We all know what "adults only" means.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: mousethief Date: 30 Nov 00 - 11:38 PM Now that I know that, Gary, what should I do? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Gary T Date: 30 Nov 00 - 11:47 PM Well, mousethief, you could try to find someone besides me who thinks (or thought) it's important, but that might take way too much time. What to do now?--I dunno, take a drive on the parkway? (BG) (Nice comeback, by the way--point taken, gentleness appreciated.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: mousethief Date: 01 Dec 00 - 01:24 AM I put my foot in my mouth bigtime on the thread that was all about those silly "drive on the parkway" type questions. One of my larger gaffes on Mudcat, but minor compared to other online things I've done that I regretted later. Let me say this, however, to the menfolk: if you need pornography to "get ready" to make love to your lady, consider the possibility that there's something amiss in your relationship with your lady. But what do I know? I'm young and stupid and in love. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Naemanson Date: 01 Dec 00 - 06:33 AM How about those of us who don't have a lady to "get ready" for? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Little Neophyte Date: 01 Dec 00 - 06:58 AM Naemanson, it might me an idea to fantasize about the lady you would love to 'get ready' for. I find if the imagination is not used, like exercise & fitness, it atrophies I really have nothing against porns, really I don't. I just think if you don't have a woman in your life, but you know what type of woman you would want, like anything else we want, it does help to visualize a picture of it. You might find it quite enjoyable to visualize making love to this very special person. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Naemanson Date: 01 Dec 00 - 07:48 AM Even the imagination, and I have a very active imagination, needs a bit of a jump now and again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: LR Mole Date: 01 Dec 00 - 08:15 AM Gawd, what a gift to open this on a sunny morning and find the matter considered with both intelligence and kindness. As Sondheim said, "Here's to us. Who's like us? Damn few!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: John P Date: 01 Dec 00 - 08:50 AM Wow, Gary T, you must be a riot to be in a conversation with. Have all of your "live" friends learned not to make quips, asides, or witticisms around you? You said that these were lame points and it's clear you didn't think we were being serious, but the fact is that they weren't points at all. They were jokes. What is more lame -- Alex and I inserting essentially meaningless quips into the conversation, or you taking the time to take us to task for doing so? I'll take levity over curmudgeon any day. I also notice that this has been your entire contribution to this thread, which is not true of Alex or myself. An our jokes were, at least, on topic. I would be interested in hearing your views on pornography. Or even any good jokes on the subject. Where do you think the line is between pornography and erotica? Alliekatt wrote about loving pornography, but then went on to describe what I would classify as erotica. But I'm having a hard time quantifying what the difference is. Maybe the artistic content? Maybe the ability to engage more of the person than the libido? Any thoughts? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Gary T Date: 01 Dec 00 - 10:01 AM Actually, John, I did take the quips too seriously, but Alex's response made me realize what a pedantic ass I'd been about it. My reply to him was an attempt to acknowledge that and reinsert some levity. And yes, my observation wins the "most lame" award. My apologies. While pondering the subject reading this thread, I found that your earlier post included many points and observations that I quite agree with. I think that most males get some enjoyment from seeing naked women. Some (many? most?) women find men's appreciation of pornography hard to understand and relate to, and some find it hurtful to some degree. This attitude, in turn, is difficult for some men to understand and relate to. Is liking pornography wrong? In general, I don't believe so, I think it's rather natural. Some forms of it I find rather scary--there's a big difference between Playboy and some of the other stuff out there. I don't know how much of a problem (if any) that poses. Perhaps a more pertinent question would be "Is using pornography wrong?" I wouldn't say it's inherently wrong, but if it affects one's ability to have a normal meaningful sexual relationship, or it causes hurt to those one loves, something is wrong. The dictionary definitions of pornography and erotica are pretty similar. I think most of us perceive erotica to have an element of class lacking in "ordinary" porn. As to where the lines are between erotica, everyday pornography, and disgusting filth, I think that's an area where if you ask ten people, you get eleven different answers. It might be impossible to provide a definition that is universally or even widely agreed upon. Regard, Gary |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bill D Date: 01 Dec 00 - 01:08 PM ...and when we've finished sorting out whether porn(and what kind) is good or bad, we can go on and decide what 'folk music' REALLY is, whether abortion is ever allowable, whether liberals or conservatives should run government, whether to allow prayer at public events, who should govern Northern Ireland, whether PCs are better than MACs, whether children should ever be spanked..........and the BIG one..... what is the BEST way to cook barbeque! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: GUEST,Matt_R Date: 01 Dec 00 - 01:14 PM PREACH ON BROTHER BRETT! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Gary T Date: 01 Dec 00 - 01:20 PM Uh, Bill, shouldn't that be "the ONLY way to cook barbeque?" |