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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Jun 07 - 09:50 AM Rev- Thanks for posting the supporting information for Stuart Frank's dating of whaling grounds being extended north of the Bering Straits. Frank was "...Executive Director and Chief Curator of the Kendall Whaling Museum in Sharon, Massachusetts from 1981 until its merger with the New Bedford Whaling Museum in 2001. He is currently Director Emeritus of the Kendall Institute and Senior Cirator of the New Bedford Whaling Museum." He has had access to a vast collection of whaling log books and is an assiduous researcher. He and his wife Molly Malloy have also recorded several fine CD's. He also has published a definitive book on pirate songs, THE BOOK OF PIRATE SONGS. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: MartinRyan Date: 04 Jun 07 - 09:59 AM Charley Can you post publishing details of the "Book of Pirate Songs", please. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Rev Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:09 PM I've been fortunate enough to spend some time at Stuart and Mary's house, and they have a music room/library that is hard to top. Floor to ceiling bookshelves of songbooks, song indexes, and sheet music from the last two centuries... curio cabinets filled with little figurines playing accordions (OK, it's a little weird)... They're both wonderful musicians. And not only did he have this extensive career at the Kendall Whaling Museum, but he previously directed the music program at Mystic Seaport, where he started the sea music festival and symposium that we have all come to know an love. He based it on the Festival of the Sea in San Francisco, where he and Mary first met. His albums on Folkways, are great documents of the sea music revival: Sea Chanties and Forecastle Songs at Mystic Seaport (1978, FW37300), and Songs of Sea and Shore (1980, FW05256). The pirate songs book is also great. I think there might also be a CD that goes with it. Here's the bibliographic lowdown on it... Frank, Stuart M. 1998. The Book of Pirate Songs. Sharon, MA.: The Kendall Whaling Museum. (There are 10 copies available on Amazon as we speak). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:49 PM What a team! We don't even need to consult. But, Rev, "Stuart and Mary's"? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Rev Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:15 PM Yes Charley, her name is Mary not Molly. Rev |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Rev Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:21 PM Although, I will say, the name "Molly Molloy" does have a nice ring to it. Maybe that was her stage name when she was a member of Morrigan back in the day. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: MartinRyan Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:53 PM Thanks for that... Martin |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Charley Noble Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:27 PM Rev- You're certainly correct, now that I've rechecked my notes, but "Molly Molloy" does have a nice ring. I wonder how long I've mixed up her name in my mind? ;~( Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:37 PM Since the "Arctic Sea" (formerly known also as the "Polar Sea") is described, the song should not have originated earlier than 1848, as Rev says. "St. Lawrence Bay" is "Zaliv Lavrentiya" in Russian. The town of Lavrentiya is located on its shore, southwest of Uelen, a village near the extreme eastern tip of Siberia. The "Kamchatka Sea" is considerably to the southwest, off the east coast of the Kamchatka Peninsula. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:20 AM I've compared all the texts and played Bishop Percy with them to construct a plausible nineteenth-century original. I don't claim this *is* the "lost original," or that it's superior to any of the collected or rewritten versions, just that it may be somewhat closer to it than any of the known texts. Don't bother to complain about my choices and alterations. The original song or poem was written before the Civil War in the diction of the period and that's what I've tried to stick to. Because the song's realistic content outweighs the romantic fancies, my suspicion is that the author had some real connection with the Pacific whaling industry: sailor, ship's officer, company official on Maui, or someone like that. 'Tis an ample share of toil and care We whale men undergo, But our labor's o'er; what care we more How keen the blast doth blow? "Homeward bound" - 'tis a joyful sound! Tho' yet it may not be, We'll not think of that as we laugh and chat Of the girls of Old Mohee. Once more we waft on the Northern gales, And bound far o'er the main; The verdant hills of the tropic isles We soon shall view again. Five sluggish moons have waxed and waned, Since from your shores sailed we; But now we are bound from the Arctic ground, Rolling down to old Mohee. The vapors bright of the starry height Aurora's colors did display; And we slumber'd 'neath the moonbeam's smile In the silent St. Lawrence Bay. For many a weary day we toiled In the wild Kamtschatka Sea; But as we wrought we laughed and thought Of the girls of Old Mohee. Through many a blow of frost and snow, And bitter squalls of hail, Our spars were bent and our canvas rent, As we braved the Northern gale. But the hoary heads of the sea-girt isles That deck the Arctic sea, Are many and many a league astern As we steer to old Mohee. Once more we're bound with a fav'ring gale On towards our distant home; With mainmast sprung, our courses slung, Still she proudly rides the foam; Our stu'n'-s'l booms are carried away, What care we for the sound? A living gale is after us: Hurrah! We're homeward bound! We'll heave our lead where Diamond Head Looms up on old Oahu, Our masts and rigging unsheathed of ice, Our decks swept clear of snow. The hurricane on our weather beam, The breakers on our lee, And the bristling wind a-whistling past, Bring tidings of Old Mohee. We come to the seas where the fragrant breeze Is filled with odors rare, And the pretty maids in the sunny glades Are gentle, kind, and fair. 'Tis their bright eyes look forth each day, In hope some day to see Our snow-white sails before the gales Rolling down to Old Mohee. And now we have reached our destined port, No more to plough the seas; Our cruise is done, our goal is won, Her head swings in the breeze; Her yards are square, her decks are clear, Now to the shore haste we; And we'll laugh and sing till the nut groves ring On the Isle of Old Mohee. O! 'tis heartfelt joy without alloy, That fills each manly breast; But dearer yet, far dearer yet, Is our home o'er the wide sea's breast! We'll tread once more our native shore, The land of the brave and free; And we'll think at home how we used to roam On the Isle of Old Mohee. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:28 AM 'St. Lawrence Bay' of the song could be one of the bays of St. Lawrence Island, rather than Zaliv Lavrentiya, at the south entrance of Bering Strait. The 'Kamchatka Sea,' of course, would be what is now called the Bering Sea. What the poet meant geographically by Arctic Sea or Arctic ground is open to question- it could be the Bering Sea, the Strait area, or the southern part of the Chukchi. That whalers never penetrated far until some time later is pretty well shown by the fact that Wrangel Island was not 'discovered' and named until the whaler Long found it in the late 1860's. I agree that the song is probably post-1850 and after the bowhead became an established target; my objection is to the attempt to 'date' the song from the 'geography' in the text. Lacking the original poem, how accurately the extant versions reflect the text of the author also is unknown. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:22 AM Lighter- You've done a fine job in my opinion of correlating the verses posted. I've been too busy to attempt that myself. I note there is not a trace of the last verse that Hugill sang in any of the early versions, which reinforces the likelihood in my opinion that he composed it himself. I also agree that the "original poem" was probably composed by someone with some academic training, but not necessarily an officer. Some of the crewmen, as with Dana, were relatively well educated and had romantic expectations of what a whaling voyage would be. Wouldn't it be grand if someone turned up the original poem in a Melville manuscript? Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:18 AM Q, there are bays around St. Lawrence Island, but the Siberian "St. Lawrence Bay" is far larger and more sheltered. It was also known as the place where Captain Cook had first made contact with the Chukchi in 1778. Conceivably the author of "Mohee" had one of the island bays in mind, but anyone familiar with the area would be unlikely to refer to it that way except as poetic license. "Arctic Sea" and "Arctic ground" appear in all 19th century versions, including the earliest known. "Bering Sea" appears in none. Since "Arctic Sea" carried a recognized geographic meaning, the only legitimate assumption based on the evidence is that the original described Arctic rather than sub-Arctic whaling. Therefore it cannot be earlier than 1848. It's hard to resist suggesting that the song was actually written to commemorate the opening of the Arctic ground to commercial whaling. It was a dramatic moment for the whaling industry and undoubtedly a romantic event for versifiers. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:33 AM Thanks, Charlie. As you said earlier, the "wahine" stanza appears only in the Griffith/Hugill version. Who composed it we don't know; it could have been anyone. Stan learned the song in the early '20s. My impression is that whalers wouldn't have sung of "painting the beaches red" or waking with "a big fat aching head" seventy-five years earlier. Think Kipling (about 1890 on). Also, the earlier texts manage to conclude without the stanza, which seems to me to offer a shift in focus as well as tone. To repeat: my version simply tries to get closer to the original than any single version we have. That's all. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 05 Jun 07 - 05:35 PM From an old geography book, "Key to Pelton's Outline Maps," dated 1851, lines to memorize- Oceans, Seas, Gulfs, Bays, Straits, Channels, and Sounds. Air- Bonny Doon, or The Winding Way. "And now the muse delighted runs To seek the Sound called Washington's; Prince William Sound is in our way, Cook's Inlet too, and Bristol Bay. 14 "Pass farther North, on Russian ground, To take a glance at Norton's Sound; To Behring's Strait we next shall post Fast by the Asiatic coast. 15 "To Coronation Gulf we sail, And feel the Arctic's icy gale; To Bathurst Inlet next we go, Where oft the Polar tempests blow." Questions- "Describe the Arctic Ocean. Ans. It is one of the largest bodies of water on the globe, lying north of North America, Europe and Asia, around the North Pole, and contains numerous islands." "Where is the Polar Sea?" Ans. It borders on the north of the Western part of British America, and is a part of the Arctic Ocean." The tendency then as now is for the average person to call the entire area 'polar' or 'Arctic' ground; I don't think much attention was paid to geographic distinctions except by the people living the experience. Any geographic meaning would be approximate. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Charley Noble Date: 06 Jun 07 - 09:48 AM Excellent point, Q. "Geographic terms" can be a fairly fluid as applied by sailors, tourists, and even natives. And, Lord knows, one can even argue over the "correct" spelling for hours. I note that Hugill in the recently published THE BOSUN'S LOCKER, © 2006, p. 220, says in his reintroduction of "Maui" that "...(it) is probably the work of some Bowhead whaleman who had experienced the rigors of the Kamchatka Sea and warmth of the Ship Girls' welcome." On another page of this excellent book, p. 138, Higill says "This song I would place at an earlier date than the booklet (A. L. Lloyd's LEVIATHAN recording) gives (1850). Maui was the Hawaiian island where Lahaina, the greatest 'homeport' of the Bowhead whalers was situated and whalemen were rolling down from the Arctic to this excellent sheltered haven as early as 1820." Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:26 PM Lahaina was the famous Maui port, but the huge vats for rendering have been found at other points where ships could anchor. I would imagine that, as the Arctic season ended, Lahaina could get crowded. I have seen estimates of over 600 whalers in a season in the North Pacific-Arctic region. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Rev Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:26 PM Yes, anyone who's been to Lahaina knows that it's still a small town, and can probably imagine how crowded it got. Q's estimates are a bit off however. According to Starbuck, the largest number of American ships working the North Pacific in one year was around 300 in 1846. As we have determined, this was before the ships entered the Arctic Ocean, but were working in the areas South of the Bering Straits. The biggest year of Arctic whaling was 1852 during which 278 American ships were working the N. Pacific. The entire worldwide American whaling fleet in those years was around 700 ships. Of course there were also French, German and English whaling ships, but not in huge numbers. The Sandwich Islands News of Sept. 30, 1846 provides a list of all the whaleships that called at Lahaina from July through September, totaling 94 vessels. Of course this still would have made Lahaina very crowded. For example in late August 1846, there were at least two dozen ships anchored at Lahaina at once. At an average crew of 30 men per ship that's 720 rowdy whalers running around that quaint little town. Not all of the North Pacific fleet would have stopped in Lahaina at one time, because, as Q points out, there were other ports in the Hawaiian islands at which whalers called, primarily Hilo and Honolulu. The fact that whaler's try-pots have been found all over the islands (really all over the Pacific) does support this fact, but it's important to recognize that all trying-out (rendering) was done at sea. The pots were left ashore at the end of the voyage, to lighten the ship's load as much as possible when whaling was done. These were, in some cases, used by islanders in small shore-whaling ventures, or were repurposed for other uses. One notable event in this history was the loss of 34 vessels, out of around 70 working the Arctic grounds, in 1871. Though the ships were crushed in the ice, the long time during which the ships were stranded allowed for all hands to be rescued. As a result, around 1200 whalemen ended up stranded in Lahaina and Honolulu, trying to find new ships. It was really the last hurrah for the Arctic whalers, and the Hawaiian newspapers of the day describe the chaos created by that many bored whalemen in town all at once. Rev |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Jun 07 - 12:30 AM Number of whaling vessels- I localized my figure to a part of the area; the '600+' is for the entire Pacific. The figure was 'in my head' and it took a while to recollect where it came from. Being a memory, it was corrupted. It was from the entry "Whale Fisheries" in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1956, which is the latest edition I have. "Shortly before 1850 the fleet numbered 680 sail in all; and all but 40 odd ships were employed in the Pacific in the pursuit of sperm and right whales. About the same date the right whales found in the neighbourhood of Bering Strait, the bowheads, were hunted for the first time." The author is cited as J. O. B., using references including W. S. Tower, "A History of the American Whale Fishery," 1907. I apologize for my mistake. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Barry Finn Date: 07 Jun 07 - 03:02 AM Once in a while a naval training (sailing) vessel would stop at Lahaina (this is back in the late 1970's) & it would seem as if there were sailors everywhere, so a fleet would absolutely overwhelm the place and it's hot, translated Lahaina means mercyless sun the town above Lahaina is name Luna Lahaina, or "Above the mecryless sun", a great place for a fleet of drunken whalers. The town was small even back then (1970's) so go back 100 yrs & it had to be tiny. I read somewhere that one could come close to crossing the channel hopping from deck to deck with the amount of ships at anchor there. The water traffic had to be a sight as there in no inner or outer harbors, only what's called a roadstead & nothing in the way of shelter, the depth for anchorage once off the island shelf is quite deep with strong currents in the channels & the wind barreling down the island slopes. In the winter of 1979 while I was there 26 boats dragged anchor & the following week 29 boats were caught in a second storm anchored off the Lahaina Roadstead, only one out of those survived in tack. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Charley Noble Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM refresh |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 07 Jun 07 - 11:53 AM Ah, Q, Q! Find me a pre-1848 map or chart that identifies the Bering Sea as the "Arctic Sea" or "Arctic Ocean" and I'll consider the possibility that the song is older. Till then... FWIW, I *have* seen an 1824 map that calls the entire Bering Sea the "Kamtschatka [sic] Sea," which in itself doesn't affect the dating of the song. I don't know how long that name was so applied. Perhaps of greater interest is that the map shows much of the coasts of Siberia and (still Russian) Alaska as unknown. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Jun 07 - 01:57 PM 1. I have never said anything about a pre-1848 map identifying the Bering Sea as Arctic Sea or Arctic Ocean. I mentioned that the Bering Sea had also been called the Kamchatka Sea- no more than that was intended. In one version of the song: "Six hellish months have passed away In the cold Kamchatka Sea But now we're bound from the Arctic ground...." Clearly, the Kamchatka Sea is called 'Arctic ground' (or in some versions Arctic Sea) by the poet, who may not have been precise in his geographic nomenclature... Did Arctic ... carry a "recognized meaning" for the poet? 2. I never said that the song was pre-1850 or any other date. My post questioned when whalers passed through the Bering Strait, wondering why they had not penetrated into the Chukchi Sea at an earlier date- No more (To answer my own question, it would seem that it was unnecessary, the take was sufficient south of the Strait at the time). 3. My objection throughout is using the 'geography' of the song to date it when most people are, to use Charley's words, 'fluid' about usage. The poet seems to have used 'Arctic ground' or (Arctic sea) to indicate the cold whaling grounds- i. e., if the extant versions follow his original. 4. If the original poem was written to commemorate some event, such as passing through the Strait, surely it would have been garbaged up with more names and places. Note- 'Sekut Isles' of one version may have been sea-cut or sea-girt isles. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Jun 07 - 02:36 PM Lahaina is often taken to mean 'place of the Sun,' but never 'hellish sun.' Population in 1970 was about 3200, but now over 9,000. Average July high in the high 80's, nights about 70 F. Like many low coastal areas in Hawai'i, rainfall approximates 10-15 inches only (like Kona on the Big Island, Waikiki in Oahu and the other tourist hotspots), and humidity is low. It seems hot to those used to cooler climes, but, coming from the southwest, I found it comfortable. Lahaina Luna (upper or higher) is a little higher, and was the site of an important mission school in the last half of the 19th c. Several early books in Hawaiian were printed there (the original press is still there). Worth a visit to those interested in history. Some sons of well-to-do settlers in California and other parts of the west were sent to school in Lahaina Luna for the equivalent of post-grade school education, rather than being sent to eastern cities. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 08 Jun 07 - 08:57 AM Yes, "sea-girt isles" was almost certainly to be altered in learning the words by ear. Colcord's version calls them "the Seagull Isles." At least "Sekut" sounds exotic. An unrelated point: some of the other songs on the _Leviathan_ album (including the now popular "Wings of a Goney") lead me to believe that Lloyd's "Maui" is adapted from Huntington, with a new tune added. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 15 Aug 08 - 04:07 PM refresh |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:00 PM I don't know or think anything different than a year ago. I mean generally, not just in regard to this song.... |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Lighter Date: 01 Feb 10 - 04:15 PM A year and a half later and nothing new. Except to say I've searched several extensive 19th C. newspaper and magazine data bases and found no trace of the song. Also, Colcord's 1938 text seems to have appeared earlier in the 1924 edition of her book. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: shipcmo Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:41 AM refresh |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Lighter Date: 16 Nov 10 - 07:55 PM Stuart Frank's brand-new book, "Jolly Sailors Bold" (available from the publisher, Dick Greenhaus's CAMSCO Music)unfortunately adds little to our knowledge of this song. Besides the two texts that Charley posted three years ago from an article by Frank, the book includes an unedited transcription of Huntington's version from the bark "Atkins Adams." Huntington dated the text to 1858, but Frank's transcription plainly includes the words, "Dec 25 1859 / Bound for St Felix & Masafuera." Huntington cleaned up the spelling and punctuation of the original considerably. He didn't alter the lyrics or add anything, however. Thus the song is not known to have existed before the end of 1859. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: Lighter Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:48 AM To be pedantic, I should say "the poem." No tunes were reported until well into the twentieth century, though Hugill's tune was almost certainly associated with the words in the late nineteenth, and the same is probably true of Harlow's as well. As said earlier, Hugill's tune, without the Maui words, comes from the eighteenth century. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down To Old Maui From: GUEST,Overboard Date: 27 Mar 11 - 05:37 PM I think the tune actualy comes from a catholic mass |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Gibb Sahib Date: 07 Aug 12 - 10:15 PM I'm revisiting this song because I'd like to learn to sing a non-Hugill-based version. A few questions remain with me. 1. Where did Colcord get her version? 2. The version presented by Harlow, and the journal texts (incl. Huntington) all have a consistency that appears like the same song put through oral transmission. Colcord's certainly does, too, but for whatever reason (perhaps just happenstance) it looks (to me) like it stands apart. That is, the versions with a known source cohere as a group, from which Colcord's is notably different. Now, I appreciate Lighter's directly gathered information that Hugill learned the song from Paddy Griffiths. However, I'd also note a distinct similarity between Hugill and Colcord -- Hugill's lines sometimes appearing to be "improved" versions of Colcord. I think it somewhat less likely that Hugill's and Colcord's versions would form a "branch" of variations that was distinct from the branch represented by Harlow, Huntington, etc. I think it more likely that Colcord's was a variation and that Hugill utilized it. The speculative scenario that I propose is that Hugill heard the song sung by Paddy Griffiths, but for whatever reason (e.g. he forgot the words) he recreated his own rendition with the help of Colcord and with his own compositions. It may be notable that, in the index of Songs of the Sea, Hugill credits the song to himself. I guess my question is: What do you think? 3. Why is it that no one (??to my knowledge) has sung "Mohee"? The journal versions all say Mohee, and both Harlow and Colcord note that it was pronounced that way -- presumably as they had heard it sung. See also the introduction of "Rolling Down from Old Mohee" to the American Canoe Club in 1885. So if Hugill heard it sung by PG, wouldn't we expect he heard it as Mohee? Why did he not sing it that way? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Gibb Sahib Date: 08 Aug 12 - 04:33 AM "The Music of the Waters." [review essay] _Forest and Stream_ 32(5) (21 Feb. 1889). Pg 100. // Among the odd bits of flotsam and jetsam m the form of song and story that are thrown up each year at this same meet [of the American Canoe Association] is a good sea song which we have never seen in print, a reminiscence of the whaling days of our correspondent "Tarpon," an old sailor as well as canoeist. The first verse is as follows: "Once more with flowing northern gales We're bounding o'er the main, Those verdant hills of the tropic isles We soon shall see again. Five sluggish moons have waxed and waned Since from those shores sailed we. But now we're bound from the Arctic ground. Rolling down to old Mohea." "Rolling down to old Mohea, my boys, Rolling down to old Mohea, We're once more bound from the Arctic ground Rolling down from [sic] old Mohea." // There is another source, though it does not quote any lyrics, that states this song was introduced to the campers in 1885. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Aug 12 - 11:44 AM Colcord, in a footnote to "Rolling Down to Old Maui," states "Pronounced "Mo-hee."" She placed it in her section of Forecastle songs, remarks that it was a favorite with the "bow-head" whalemen who would put in to Hawai'i on their homeward voyage. The center for these whalemen was Lahaina (Roads) in Maui, where in one season, 400 ships put in there. Maui lacks the glottal stop before the terminal 'i' (as in Hawai'i). Captain Cook's map of the Sandwich Islands shows the island as "Mowee." The word might have sounded like "mo-hee (mo-hea)" to the whalers. Hawai'i is spelled Owhyhee on the same map, the 'h' indicating a glottal stop; the whalers may have put in a glottal stop in Maui in error. Colcord (her book first published in 1924), as noted by Gibb Sahib, gives no source. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:10 PM The ballad "The Lass of Mohea" (The Indian Lass, The Lass of Mohee, Little Mohee and other names) is printed with music by Colcord, version of R. M. Davids, with comment "....was a great favorite with the Arctic whalers." This song, noted in the journal of William Histed of the Cortes, 1847, may have been the source of the whalers' pronunciation (idle speculation). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: GUEST Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:40 PM Gibb, since Colcord had no tune for a full and coherent text, my guess is that the poem/song came from a written source - possibly a correspondent, a log book, or a fugitive broadside. Here's some info on the "Guy C. Goss," launched in 1879: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nzbound/goss.htm And a nice photo: http://content.lib.washington.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/alaskawcanada&CISOPTR=584 If R. W. Nye was ever a whaler, it seems not to have been aboard the Goss. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 08 Aug 12 - 12:42 PM GUEST was me, after many tries over two hours. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Gibb Sahib Date: 08 Aug 12 - 01:32 PM The lack of tune implies Colcord got it from a written source. Yet if so how would she know it was pronounced "Mohee"? Perhaps it was written as "Mohee" but she took the liberty to change it to "Maui." Then Harlow, who referenced Colcord, followed suit. The bigger mystery still is why Hugill would have pronounced it "Maui" if he'd gotten it from an oral source. The explanation, "Just to be correct," does not convince me. I suggest he used Colcord's book as a guideline. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Aug 12 - 02:09 PM The song "The Lass of Mowee," Cortes 1847, does not have the spelling "Mohee" found in most versions and in the chantey. The song is printed in Huntington with a tune, which is not given a source. In the same book, "Rolling Down to Old Mohee," from theAtkins Adams 1858 (New Bedford), also has a tune; source not given. Did Harlow comment on any source for music of "The Lass of Mowee"? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 08 Aug 12 - 02:43 PM One explanation is that she heard the name of the island pronounced that way by her father's crew in the 1890s. Another is that when R. M. Davids gave her "The Lass of Mohee," he told her it meant Maui. Or someone else told her the pronunciation had changed, and she added a footnote to indicate how it was pronounced in the old days. William Nevens's "Forty Years at Sea" (1845) also spells it "Mohee." Mohea, or Pulo Mohea, is a small island off the west coast of Thailand. (Conceivably it is the locale, chosen at random, of "The Lass of Mohea." That might explain why she's an "Indian" lass.) If, as seems likely, Hugill colloquializied some of the words and even created the final stanza, why wouldn't he also have "corrected" the pronunciation to "Maui"? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Gibb Sahib Date: 08 Aug 12 - 03:24 PM why wouldn't he also have "corrected" the pronunciation to "Maui"? He may have, indeed. If he heard Paddy G sing "Mohee." I am suggesting that he didn't have to change it; it was already done by Colcord. Whether or not he heard Paddy G, Colcord's text may have been a bigger influence. I'm basis that mostly on text comparison. I read Hugill's version as structured as follows: 1st verse based in Harlow. This verse appears as the last verse in documented versions, but Hugill moved it to the front due to it not making aesthetic sense after his "big fat aching head" last verse. Subsequent verses based in Colcord. Except for the last verse, which Hugill probably wrote. There is a general switch to a more hedonistic tone, playing up the image of wild rum-thirsty sailors who just don't give a damn damn DAMN, damnit! |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 08 Aug 12 - 05:00 PM Isn't it just as likely that if he'd used Colcord he'd have adopted her "old-time" pronunciation? And isn't it possible that PG pronounced it "Maui"? I don't think any conclusion can be drawn about anything just from Hugill's pronunciation. Also, my take on the credit to "Stan Hugill" in his final book is that it's most likely to assert some kind of presumption of copyright. After all, he *did* preserve a previously uncollected tune. The notice tells readers that he didn't get the song from someone else's book. Again, I don't believe any conclusion can be drawn. There's no reason to doubt that Hugill learned the words and melody from Paddy Griffiths, who seems to have learned the song before 1890. Whether PG's version was fragmentary and Hugill reconstructed it from Colcord, or whether he altered and elaborated on PG's song to suit his own taste w/o Colcord, I think is unknowable without a very close textual analysis of all versions. And I'm not certain that that would be conclusive either because the texts are fairly short and conventional. It seems likely that Hugill created the final stanza, in the post-Kipling environment of the 1920s, but even that isn't certain. Maybe PG had sung part of it and Hugill simply filled in some blanks. Of course, I haven't looked at the various versions closely in a number of years. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Gibb Sahib Date: 08 Aug 12 - 06:19 PM To clarify, I am not asserting that anything positive can be concluded from Hugill's pronunciation. I am: 1) Remarking that it seems curious (i.e. a red flag is going up) that even though all other versions right it as "Mohee/Mohea" or note that it should be pronounced so, Hugill did not. This inconsistency doesn't by itself prove anything, but in my opinion it adds more suggestive evidence to the pile that says Hugill was greatly responsible for the form of the popular version. Or rather, it suggests, again in my opinion, that he may have had more hand in it, rather than less. That is, whatever Paddy Griffith story is attached to it, I believe we should remain cautious of letting that make the version appear too "authentic." 2) Suggesting that the pronunciation be taken in conjunction with other evidence to propose that Colcord's book, rather than PG's singing, may have been the heavier basis. It is like leaning to cards on one another to make them stand up. Take one away and it will surely fall down; I am propping up, for argument's sake, the pronunciation thing along with the text analysis. Whether PG's version was fragmentary and Hugill reconstructed it from Colcord, or whether he altered and elaborated on PG's song to suit his own taste w/o Colcord, I think is unknowable without a very close textual analysis of all versions. This is exactly what I've been talking about. My claim is that the other versions look to be transformations of a supposed original text that I would expect to occur in an unconscious oral process, but I think Hugill's looks like it launches of from Colcord. If it were a Paddy Griffith's form, I would expect the variations to be such that it was more unique overall. Paddy Griffiths' and Colcord's informant could not have made the same "random" variations to the text. And if you compare Colcord's line to Hugill's, in most cases it is easy to imagine where and why Hugill might have switched one word to another. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Gibb Sahib Date: 08 Aug 12 - 06:36 PM write it as... learning two cards.... Sorry for numerous typos. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Gibb Sahib Date: 08 Aug 12 - 07:18 PM It's 104 degrees F where I am right now...has been in 100s all week, no let up. That's my excuse. Please forgive my scatterbrains and typos! Thanks :/ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 08 Aug 12 - 08:13 PM If the question is one of Hugill's influence on the revival, I have no doubt at all that his version is behind most revival performances. The exceptions would be those that derive instead from Lloyd & co.'s singing - to a different tune - on the album "Leviathan!" Has anybody recorded the "reconstructed" version I posted here in 2007? I bet not. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: dick greenhaus Date: 08 Aug 12 - 08:13 PM The line that seems to be most often mangled deals with 'the horrid tiles of sea-cut ice' (this one makes sense to me) or'But the hoary heads of the sea-girt isles' (possible)or 'Ah the horrid ice of the Sekut Isles' (unlikely), or 'The horrid isles of ice cut tiles' (also unlikely) or 'The horrid isles of ice cut tiles'. To my, they all point to a single source (who may have mumbled a bit). |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Gibb Sahib Date: 08 Aug 12 - 09:23 PM Lighter-- We're waiting for you to record it! An explanation: I like to have some understanding --when I can-- about the songs I sing. That understanding is not limited to positive knowledge, the black and white. There are also shades of grey. Even with speculation, there are shades of more and less likely. I accept that we'll never know for sure--this is the historian's credo. But when one shifts to the act of performance, one must *commit*; one goes one way or another. There is no "vague" in performance, no way to indicate the presence of the unknown. I prefaced my new comments on this thread with the note that I am revisiting this song because I'd like to sing it--with an historically informed understanding, and yet that act of performance requires acting on guesses. My current sense is that this song would not likely have been sung with the pronunciation "Maui," therefore I reject that aspect of Hugill's performance. And I think that Hugill almost "pulled a Bert Lloyd" with this song, which makes me want to get at the "heart" of the song (so far as possible) without the distraction of what Hugill may or may not have invented ca1970. Yeah, a personal interest, I guess. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Rollin' Down to Old Maui From: Nigel Parsons Date: 09 Aug 12 - 04:21 AM 100 |
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