 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 02 - 05:59 PM Well laid out, Don. Thanks. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: dick greenhaus Date: 24 Sep 02 - 06:01 PM Well, I never saw a horse that goose-stepped... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 02 - 06:06 PM Vee haff vaysch, Mishter Ed!!! A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:19 PM "he can't be the crowd-frenzying demagogue, while simultaneously the dictional idiot." (John Hardly)
Why not? I'm not clear what "dictional" means (it's not in my dictionaly - but assuming it means that he mangles language a bit, I can't see any inconsistency there. That's what crowd-frenzying demagogues often do "Man of the people" stuff.
In fact that combination worked very well for Hitler - though I disagree with trying to draw over close parallels. Bush is a very different creature in a very different situation. There are common features, as with other right-wing populists, but they are fairly superficial.
As for the Fascist label, it's a good pun, and I'm surprised noone has commented on that. But not an adequate summary of the true position.
When the fat cats in Germany helped Hitler into power they thought they were putting in someone who would be a useful and obedient tool. The reality wasn't exactly that, and was a lot worse than that, because Hitler had a nightmare agenda which had very little to do with that.
I doubt very much if Bush has any equivalent agenda. Maybe he is more like what the fat cats thought they were getting back in 1933.
But I find him more frightening than any political leader in either America or the Soviet Union since the death of Stalin. Not so much him personally, but the whole cabal of which he is the head or the figurehead. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: michaelr Date: 24 Sep 02 - 07:35 PM Don Firth -- you have laid out exactly what's worrying me. Bush is no Hitler (who was no slavering madman, at least not until the very end), but there are definite parallels in the setup we're seeing unfold here now. McGrath -- thanks for catching the pun! I guess there's not a lot of Kinks fans around here, or maybe it's just too serious a topic for having a wee chuckle... Cheers, Michael |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:08 PM Don - Yes. I have exactly the same reservations about that legislation that you do, and I would describe it as a fascist police state agenda with very dangerous implications. A carte blanche to ignore civil rights and due process and the whole democratic tradition. I'm just sick of people bringing up the name "Hitler" all the time, whether with regard to Bush or Saddam or whoever they are worried about. It's kind of like playing the "race card"...just too damn predictable and pat. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: John Hardly Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:14 PM Gee, sorry MofH. did you really not understand the gist of my point (even if I did take the liberty of making diction into an adjective)(even if you don't agree with my premise) is it really that you didn't understand what I meant by "dictional" or are you just being a prick? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 02 - 10:28 PM I read the other day where someone said that 'Bush speaks with an iron tongue." I cannot imagine anyone getting all pumped from the fluid delivery of his speech or the eloquence of its content. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:10 PM Well, danged, I reckon this ol' hillbilly is gonna have to do some time in the corner for reference to "goosesteppin'". Hey, I ain't called Junior, ahhh Hitler. Never thought of it. Heck, he's Junior. And Hitler was Hitler. Two very different folks... Now, I know that some folks get real razed when I speak of Junior gettin' folks "goosesteppin" but unless I am totally out voted by those Catfolks who I respect I'm reserving the right to use the term. It is meant to mean nothin' more than compliance which Junior and Co. demand. Hey, if they don't like it then they shouldn't have paid some PR company a bunch of out tax bucks to come up with that "You're either with us, or you're against us". Well, they could have paid them but they shouldn't have unleashed it. It screams of, "Get your ass in line, *boy*" When Tom Daschle disagredd with Junior about some trivail thing, then they sent out an army of folks to call Daschle a demon and traitor. When they did thay, they, in essence, said, "End of discussion!" Problem with "End of Discussion" is that without discussion you have "End of Democracy". Yeah, so when I say "goosestepping" I am referring to the act of submission, of curling up in a fetal position, of pulling one's head into the shell. It has nothing to do with Hitler but with a symbol of *giving up*. So, my friends, that's my non-Hitler story and I'm stickin' to it. Resist Junior's War Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: toadfrog Date: 24 Sep 02 - 11:30 PM Bush is surely a very bad President and a dangerous man. As a President, the equal of James Buchanan. As a statesman, well below the caliber of the last German Kaiser. That said, Little Hawk is very right. Hitler was so remarkably cruel and vulgar as to set a record among leaders of large civilized nations. The opposite of Jesus Christ. A myth and symbol of evil. A serious threat to everyone, and a mass murderer of peoples. On the other hand, most men are "like" Hitler, at least to the extent hair tends to grow on their upper lips. Comparing people to Hitler is simply flaming them; it's just an epithet. I suggest a moratorium on the phrase "like Hitler." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Wolfgang Date: 25 Sep 02 - 07:56 AM 'dictional' is in any sufficiently new and big dictionary. Re Hitler, I strongly support LH and toadfrog. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 25 Sep 02 - 10:12 AM What does "..more than thick with kibitzing this fomenting momentum" mean? (quote) "I know what kibbitzing is, T. I grew up in New Yawk! " Didn't know. Thought you were homegrown west-coaster or some species of westerner. Correction noted ;-) (quote) "The grammar was obscure." (quote re:) "What does "..more than thick with kibitzing this fomenting momentum" mean? " I'm aware I take a free-association license with words ,but "a momentum of fomenting " within the context of this thread defines the momentum of war-mongering rhetoric we've been subjected to of late and "thick with kibitzing" this "fomenting momentum" may be translated as the AIPAC lobbying being deeply involved ( ie: "thick") with generating the "rationale's for pre-emption" Isreali's subscription to unilateralist pre-emption on record with the warranted bombing of the Iraqi Osirac Nuke Plant under construction in June of 1981. One could then safely conclude that the Isreali's have had Saddam's Iragi regime and attendent war machine well in their sites ever since. If any one group is champing at the bit to "finish the job" it's the Isreali's. (quote) "Be that as it may, if poeple taking advantage of dynamic situations to forward their agendae upsets you, stay out of politics," Oh C'mon Amos. You really have misread me entirely if you suggest that I "shock ,shock" too easily and thus recommend that I should shrink like a violet. Hardly Rest assured that the so-called political "heat in the kitchen" on most issues hasn't made this New Yorker faint of heart yet. ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:28 AM Well, there's no dictional in my Concise Oxford Dictionary. Maybe its not big enough (more than 1500 ages though, not that concise) or not modern enough.
Truly, I thought there might be a typo, since the idea that the fact that someone mangles their speech a bit by schoolroom standards - which is what I guessed it might mean - might get in the way of their ability to stir an audience, well it just didn't and doesn't fit with my observation.
I agree that throwing Hitler round in this context isn't too helpful. It threatens to derail the discussion, because it's so easy to point out significant differences, and then the risk is people might be tempted to believe that just that just because the guy isn't that like Hitler is ok really. That also applies when you talk about deeply unpleasant people like Saddam Hussein, and Bush and others have done that freely. Compare just about anyone with Hitler and you make them look good. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 25 Sep 02 - 11:51 AM Okay, Taliesen, thanks for the unpacking job. A. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: MAG Date: 27 Sep 02 - 10:56 PM OK, refresh; am I the only one chilled to the bone by Junior's use of the term "lightning-war?" You do understand that it equates to the German "Blitzkrieg?" What is NOT to be scared about? I'm out looking for a demonstration to join. MOST sincerely, MA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 27 Sep 02 - 11:07 PM MAG: Check out www.endthewar.org. There's a biggie in D.C. this weeknend (Sunday). If you can make it, let me know. Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 28 Sep 02 - 12:18 AM John Hardy -- There was no Puppet Master in the Clinton Whitehouse. That was part of the problem. They had a great shill, but nothing to sell. As for all of the hoo-hah and who-shot-john over the definitions of words -- This is a politician that we're talking about!! All dictionary definitions are, if you'll pardon the expression, by definition nonsequitors. They have no connection to what Dubya might or might not mean. When it comes to warfare it's all rhetoric until the shooting starts and all lies thereafter. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: MAG Date: 28 Sep 02 - 12:50 AM Bobert, I'm at the other end of the country, and couldn't get the weekend off to save my life -- it's national library card month and we have the "arthur" costume and our third Arthur program tomorrow -- Sunday or the week after, I hope. -- MA |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Troll Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:18 AM Bobert, you said "*" When Tom Daschle disagredd with Junior about some trivail thing, then they sent out an army of folks to call Daschle a demon and traitor. When they did thay, they, in essence, said, "End of discussion!"
Problem with "End of Discussion" is that without discussion you have "End of Democracy"." troll |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST,The Burren Ranger Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:41 AM >Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind.... And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded with patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader, and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." - William Shakespeare |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 28 Sep 02 - 08:07 AM Burren Ranger -- That's quite a well chosen quote. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 28 Sep 02 - 09:50 AM According to Snopes.com: We've been seeing this "quote" on the Internet since December 2001, sometimes attributed to Julius Caesar, sometimes to William Shakespeare (presumably lifted from his play, Julius Caesar). Throughout the summer of 2002 it gained popularity, appearing in countless posts to newsgroups and even surfacing in various letters to editors in a handful of newspapers. Its popularity is not hard to understand: The USA has been embroiled in a war against terrorism far across the world and is contemplating war with Iraq, and the latter action, especially, has been the subject of much debate and dissension within America. This telling observation from Caesar appears to offer yet another valid reason for not yelling "Our leader; right or wrong!" and blindly following the President into war. It is therefore a favorite of those who'd rather sit this dance out, thankyouverymuch. Yet as popular as the quote is, it's not real. These words are not anything Julius Caesar ever wrote or said. No biographies of Caesar or histories of Rome contain these lines, and scholars who have made it their business to know everything about the man draw a blank on this quote. Likewise, Shakespeare did not stuff this soliloquy into the mouth of the title character in his play Julius Caesar, nor did any of the Bard's other characters utter it. No record of this quote has been found prior to its appearance on the Internet in late 2001. So what's going on here, then? As Ralph Keyes explains in Nice Guys Finish Seventh, his compendium of misattributed and false quotes, "Famous dead people make excellent comentators on current events." The dead do not reappear to challenge words assigned to them, an attribute much prized by those looking for convenient spokesmen to lend authority to their convictions. This "quote" called for a strong and respected military leader and statesman, hence Caesar was resurrected to give it voice. Barbara "great Caesar's ghost!" Mikkelson |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Donuel Date: 28 Sep 02 - 10:05 AM Putting the current intellecetually challenged Prince W aside, The Bush family and associates over the last 3 generations have numerous connections with the third Reich both monetarily and philosophicly. These are not to be mentioned in polite society but there are plenty of facts to back this claim. MY PORTRAIT OF ASHCROFT The next regieme |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Donuel Date: 28 Sep 02 - 10:07 AM Corrected links: |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST Date: 28 Sep 02 - 10:12 AM Sorry for the daft question, what does the DC stand for in Washington DC? Thanks |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 28 Sep 02 - 10:21 AM Look it up, mate. District of Columbia. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Don Firth Date: 28 Sep 02 - 02:52 PM Argumentum ad hominem: the fallacy of attempting to refute a statement by attacking the person who makes the statement. Defense: the character or circumstances of the person making the statement has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the statement per se. The spurious Shakespeare/Julius Caesar quote above may not have been said by either of those to whom it has been attributed. However, how many "Caesars" in the history of the world could have truthfully made this statement had they been sufficiently eloquent? Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Tiger Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:08 PM Zzzzzz......... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:32 PM It doesn't really matter, but I find it hard to beieve that anyone could have thought that Shakespeare wrote that quote. I don't mean the content, with which I wouldn't quarrel at all, either in respect of Caesar or his current successors - but that's not how Shakespeare used language.
Maybe someone could translate it into Shakespearian English... Actually it'd go better into Shavian, maybe as an out-take from Caesar and Cleopatra. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Sep 02 - 04:43 PM Who CARES who said it? It is an excellent quote, and gets right to the point. I mean, what if Jerry Lewis or Strom Thurmond or Orson Welles had said it? Would that help? I think not. The statement stands on its own feet quite nicely. (Maybe I should claim authorship, and see about collecting royalties... :-) - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: DougR Date: 28 Sep 02 - 05:00 PM Pleanty of facts to back up your claim the Bush clan had close ties to the third Reich Donuel? Let's see 'em. Not opinions, mind you, facts, as you claim. DougR |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Sep 02 - 05:00 PM By claiming to be something it is not ("And I am Caesar") it diminishes its power, and distracts attention from its content. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: GUEST Date: 28 Sep 02 - 05:09 PM Sorry Amos it was atupid question, I'm not American, thanks for your help. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Amos Date: 28 Sep 02 - 08:07 PM You're welcome, Guest. If I asked querstions for everything I was ignorant about your country I'd look like a virtual kindergartner! A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Dedicated Follower of Fascism From: Bobert Date: 28 Sep 02 - 09:06 PM No, Doug, Junior and his family do not have links to the Third Reich, but now the Bin Ladens is a different matter, indeed. Why is it that on the day after 9-11, that the *only* air plane flying the skies over the US, other than military, was a chartered commercial airliner which went from city to city plucking Bin Laden's relatives out and to safety? Hmmmmmmm? Never got an answer to that one either, But, heck, I'm patiently waiting. And how about the business dealings between the Bushes and the Bin Ladens? And just how much has Senior Bush pocketed from dealings with the Bin Ladens? Oh, nevermind, this thread is about Ass-croft. Hey, just for fun. What's left of the 5th Ammendment? Not much. Been gutted. Talk of Fasicsm! Ya jus gotta get rid of the Bill of Rights ot maybe that protion that protects the folks who don't agree with ya and that's the all important first step. Nevermind... That's right (ha, get it? Right!) we got troll and GUEST, et al, all ready to split some heads and tell this ol' hillbilly once again just what a wonderful person their guy is.... Hmmmmmmm? Bobert |
