BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: The Walrus
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 08:56 PM

I've missed most of this thread, so, if it's been said already, I apologise:

"...After Dunblane (16 five year old kids and their Teacher killed in a gym) we had to do something..."

I found it amusing that the majority of 'anti-gunners' I've seen and/or met drive cars or are driven.

More children are killed in London in a month than were killed in the whole year of Dunblane. Perhaps "Saint Ann" bryson (or whatever her name was) would have been better trying to ban cars.

If the loony with the gun had chosen to get tanked up and drive his car into the school gates when the kids were coming out, whould there have been such a outcry against cars? I think not. Responsible gun owners were an easy target (especially for the tabloids).

Remember, making gun ownership illegal only affected LEGAL gun owners
(and before anyone else says it, yes, I know Hamilton had a licence, but at least one of the weapons he used wasn't on it).

Embittered ex-pistol shooter

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 27 Apr 03 - 11:34 PM

SINSULL,

In respect to Heston I would probably agree that he should do something practical with his guns-donate them to a museum, give them to friends and family, whatever. I think that in not too long a time he will be unable to make many rational desisions, and may do something he would never even dream of doing now, and it's best to not put danger in front of him.

Thanks for pointing that out-

Chaz

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:06 AM

Just saw "Bowling For Columbine" today in Barrie, Ontario, Canada. It's a pretty heavy movie. It makes some very good points, and at the same time engages in some rather manipulative tactics to do it. Michael Moore put together a very powerful film, but he compromised himself a bit here and there, in order to score points...

For instance: I know any number of Canadians who lock their houses, although I don't doubt that Americans are more inclined to do so. His Canadian interviews were pretty selective. Moore gave the impression that virtually no Canadian locks his house. Simply not true. It is true that Canada has a far lower per capita crime rate than the USA, however, as he pointed out also.

Moore deliberately maneuvered Charlton Heston into a very unpleasant position in a rather sneaky manner, and he was an invited guest in Heston's home at the time. I actually felt a little sorry for Heston, although I've always tended to sharply disagree with his politics...about guns and in general.

At the same time, I could understand Moore's legitimate concerns, and what he was trying to achieve. He just did it in a rather sneaky manner, I thought, under the circumstances.

The burning question Moore was trying to get answered was: Why is there such a high incidence of gun-related violence (per capita) in the USA? Why is it worse in the USA than in other developed countries.

He was implying that it is because guns are too easily available (perhaps)...and the media is sensationalist (absolutely true!), causing people to be extra paranoid in the USA (absolutely true), and there is a strong tradition of using guns in the USA (also true).

So, all of those things may be taken into account as factors...but...there are a hell of a lot of guns in Canada too...and very little gun-related violence. So what's the story on that?

I think the key is this: The USA is a society where every key decision made comes down to MONEY. If you've got enough of it, you're okay. If you don't...you're in deep trouble. It's a "survival" based society. People in survival mode are very easily turned to violence when they doubt their capacity to survive a situation.

Now why does Canada have a national health insurance plan to pay for people's medical treatment? Because it's profitable???? NO. Because it's advantageous in social and human terms...and that outweighs the significance of dollar profit.

There is terrible poverty in the USA in many places, alongside tremendous wealth. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider all the time, and there's very little social safety net. A succession of neoconservative American governments have mostly made the situation steadily worse, specially since the Reagan era. The inner cities have been more or less abandoned. That is not trimming of over fat government, it's abdication of government!

What you have is an increasingly desperate underclass, a beleagured and frightened middle class fleeing to featureless suburbs and gated communities, and an upper class that keeps getting richer and more isolated from the troubles of the lower and middle classes...allied with a media that feeds people paranoia on a daily basis...just to make a profit!

That's a recipe for social decay, oligarchy, and the destruction of democracy...all so the rich can get richer. That's what's happening.

Ally it with a culture that celebrates a long tradition of bearing arms and using guns...and you've got a recipe for disaster.

A society that respects nothing at all except the buying power of the dollar finally respects nothing at all, period.

You don't base a sane social policy on making profits for a few players at the top, you base a sane social policy on making a better life for everybody.

That isn't being done in the USA.

Moore focused on that too. He should have focused on it more, rather than taking cheap shots at guys in gun clubs, many of whom are not the nut cases whom liberals (and I've been accused of being a "liberal" enough times) imagine when they imagine gun owners.

The people on both sides of this issue could benefit from recognizing the humanity and intelligence of the people on the other side and not merely dismissing them as stereotypical dimwits.

There is one other factor too...a national government that customarily resolves its own problems by violence should hardly be surprised when its citizenry themselves start doing the same on the home turf. Set a lousy, irresponsible example at the top, and it will be followed.

And right there lies the most crucial difference between the USA and CAnada...or most other modern developed nations in the present era. It is not considered acceptable in Canada to settle issues through violence. It has long been standard behaviour for the USA to do that on the broad stage of the World...just as if the USA was Wild Bill Hickock stalking the streets of Tombstone.

Moore touched on those matters too, but I think he took some cheap shots at what he presented as the stereotypical "gun owner". That's easy to do, but it doesn't prove much.

People love having someone to look down on, and it's as easy for liberals to fall into that moral superiority trap as it is for conservatives.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:38 AM

*sigh*...my dad, granddad, and great-granddad grew up with guns as a part of their daily lives. The code they lived by, never drawing them in anger, never pointing them unless they meant to kill, understanding the responsibility and consequences of owning and using a gun, is not a general code among many who own guns in this day and age. There are too many who own guns with no thought as to their lethal power.

Also, I believe America is much more violent, today, with the proliferation of gun ownership, than it ever was in their day. People just didn't resolve things with firepower as much back then. Of course, the exception was in self-defense as in the case of my great-grandfather.

There has to be some solution. I'd vote for Clinton's, too, if it was practical, i.e. if it excluded me and mine!**bg**

One more thought: it becomes much more difficult and more up close and personal to kill someone/thing with weapons other than guns. Anything which takes more thought and preparation can be a good thing if it gets a person cooled down enough to really think about what they are doing.

Also, I can't help but think all of the children I know of who have killed themselves or others with their adult family members' guns, may have had a lot harder time doing so with a long bow, knife, etc. At least with those, they could only take out one person at a time. Yep, that 14 year old in WY who was afraid to tell his parents he'd made less than "A"s on his report card would have had a hell of a time locking himself in the bathroom with a long bow, after school, and blowing his brains out as he did with his dad's hunting rifle.

As to self-defense, if it's up close, use a can of spray paint to the eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: DougR
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:43 AM

Guest appears to believe that Chuck Heston's Alzheimer's was brought on due to some nefarious happening. It happens, Guest, just like bodily functions do. It cannot be brought on because of ones defense of owning firearms.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:54 AM

Little Hawk, you say: There is terrible poverty in the USA in many places, alongside tremendous wealth. The gap between rich and poor is growing wider all the time, and there's very little social safety net. A succession of neoconservative American governments have mostly made the situation steadily worse, specially since the Reagan era. The inner cities have been more or less abandoned. That is not trimming of over fat government, it's abdication of government!

What you have is an increasingly desperate underclass, a beleagured and frightened middle class fleeing to featureless suburbs and gated communities, and an upper class that keeps getting richer and more isolated from the troubles of the lower and middle classes...allied with a media that feeds people paranoia on a daily basis...just to make a profit!

That's a recipe for social decay, oligarchy, and the destruction of democracy...all so the rich can get richer. That's what's happening.

What you say may be true in the HUGE cities- I don't know. I don't live there. (Neither do you, actually.) All I know is that if things where I live were as bad as you say - or where I have ever lived (I have lived in Oregon, Virginia, Michigan and Alaska, and visited many other states) I'd be quaking in my slippers behind locked and barred doors and windows.

You remind me of a childless person giving advice to a parent.   Note that I don't think you shouldn't form and give opinions- but if you were rearing a kid, you might find yourself at a loss on occasion. The same way that you might find living in the US for the most part rich, fulfilling and without fear.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:56 AM

Response to Little Hawk:

I agree with virtually every word you say, and you show some keen insights into the survivor mentality. Canada has always had a survivor mentality as well (see Margaret Atwood's analysis of Canadian literature, entitled "Survival"), but Canadians have always had to survive climate, a common enemy that brought them together.

One issue you could have explored further re "Bowling for Columbine":
you ask:

"...there are a hell of a lot of guns in Canada too...and very little gun-related violence. So what's the story on that?"

Part of the story on that, which should have been made crystal clear by Moore, dammit, is the TYPE of guns that Canadians own. Most gun-owning Canadians have rifles for hunting. There are some (registered) handguns, mostly for shooting clubs, sports type stuff, etc. But -- and this is a huge but -- assault weapons, automatic machine pistols, all the heavy attack weapons that are permitted in the US, are illegal in Canada. (I don't even know the names of most of them, but you can figure out what I mean.) What are those guns for? Shooting deer? Target practice? I think not. They really serve only one purpose.

I think this is a pertinent distinction which should be emphasized.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Neighmond
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:26 AM

Katlaughing,

I am a peace-loving man, but up close and personal or far away, if somebody posed a lethal threat to my family or myself I would kill them with my bare hands, if it came to that.

If someone is going to take their own life, the lack of a gun won't stop them for a moment. My brother commited a very thought-out and deliberate suicide (without a fire arm)and lingered in a hospital bed for 36 hours before a merciful death came.

FWIW

Chaz

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:15 AM

Neighmond, I am sorry about your brother. Thank you for sharing that with us. With all due respect, though, a lack of gun may make a huge difference in such impulse suicides as I wrote of. I truly believe if that child had not had access to his father's gun that afternoon he would not be dead. It was very much an emotional, spur-of-the-moment desperate act, as many crimes of violence are, esp. when carried out by children.

Thanks, again,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:07 PM

Ebbie - For sure, there are tens of thousands of communities in the USA that do not meet the extremed example I was giving...and I know that. I've lived in small town USA. Most of the time things seem pretty safe and peaceful in American small towns and smaller cities.

I think the aggressive conduct of the USA government itself may be the most important point of all. The USA has an estraordinarily aggessive government, and that affects the attitudes and expectations of American citizens. It can't help but do so.

pdc - Good point.

Kat - It's true that crimes are more easily committed when guns are available. However, legislation that tries to make guns less available frequently ends up hurting the wrong people, and merely complicating the lives of a lot of entirely peaceful gun owners who are not threatening anyone and don't intend to.

I think it would make more sense to establish greater social justice all around...thus reducing people's level of fear. But that would involve transforming the basis of the whole society, transforming the health care system, transforming the media, and so on, and that is what the $ySStem is not prepared to do. It will not address its own institutionalized negativity and inequality, because it's run by those who profit most from keeping things just the way they already are.

Sounds kind of like France before the Revolution...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: harvey andrews
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 12:39 PM

I read somewhere recently...correct me if I'm wrong..that since the shooting of John Lennon more Americans have died from shootings than were killed in the whole of America's participation in World War 2.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:19 PM

Suicide can have a lot to do with easy availability of the means.

When they changed the type of gas avaiable on the mains in Britain, to use North Seaas instead of Coal Gas, one side effect was that it wasn't poisonous any more. Rather to the surprise of everyone the suicide rate from all causes plummeted - between 1963 and 1975 ity went down by 40 per cent.

Sure there are always other ways of killing yourself - buy for a lot of people the fact that they couldn't end it all by sticking their head in the gas oven was enough to stop them taking their life.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: The O'Meara
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:30 PM

A couple years ago, the TV show "60 Minutes" did a segment about Charleton Heston. I watched it with some trepidation, since Mike Wallace and CBS have a decidedly anti-gun bias. As it turned out, however, the whole issue of guns was secondary, and Mr. Wallace came to the conclusion that Charleton Heston was truly dedicated to preserving the freedoms we Americans are guaranteed in our constitutional bill of rights. (Remember, Charleton Heston also marched with Dr. Martin Luther King in support of civil rights for all Americans.) He just started with the 2nd amendment.

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 01:32 PM

Guns or not, people determined on suicide will accomplish it eventually. One of the most hideous aspects of the net is that there are websites on how to commit suicide. I've often thought that this type of site should be brought to the attention of parents as well as the porn sites.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 02:13 PM

"...people determined on suicide will accomplish it...

But there are degrees of determination. And people whose degree of determination to kill themselves isn't that strong are particularly vulnerable to ways of doing so that are available on impulse.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:07 PM

There was one suicide here in Juneau a few years back that had an element of humor in it. A man left a note then went out and threw himself into the ocean (in our 'front yard', so to speak). Well, our water is COLD. He scrambled out, went home and changed into dry clothes. Then hanged himself.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: TIA
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM

From the CNN story in Guest's opening post...

"After the tape was shown, Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the NRA, presented Heston with the "quintessential cowboy" rifle "that helped win the American West."

By shooting what...?

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: The O'Meara
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 05:51 PM

Wild game, dangerous game, bad guys, good guys and each other.

O'Meara

Subject: The Medieval English Longbow
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:09 PM

Radwulf, A friend of mine wrote this article some time ago. I read and use the internet too. All knowledge comes from books letters and discussion not personal memories. Now Fuck Off....

From the thirteenth until the sixteenth century, the national weapon of the English army was the longbow. It was this weapon which conquered Wales and Scotland, gave the English their victories in the Hundred Years War, and permitted England to replace France as the foremost military power in Medieval Europe. The longbow was the machine gun of the Middle Ages: accurate, deadly, possessed of a long-range and rapid rate of fire, the flight of its missilies was liken to a storm. Cheap and simple enough for the yeoman to own and master, it made him superior to a knight on the field of battle. Yet, important as this weapon was, most of our present day beliefs concerning it are based upon myth.

There are many statistics available on the longbow, but few agree. The term longbow implies a weapon of greater length than the 4 foot bow used on the continent. Geoffrey Trease, author of The Condottieri, maintains the longbow used by the 14th century mercenary troops of Sir John Hawkwood "was as tall as themselves or a fraction taller". This would make the bow approximately five feet long, since the average height of the medieval yeoman soldier was five feet to five feet two inches. The Royal Antiquaries Society of Great Britain maintains the weapon was "of five or six feet" in length. Major Richard G. Bartelot, Assistant Historical Secretary of the Royal Artillery Institution says "the bow was of yew, six feet long, with a three foot arrow".
Finally, Gaston Foebus, Count of Foix, wrote in 1388, that a longbow should be "of yew or boxwood, seventy inches between the points of attachment for the cord..." These quotes demonstrate that the weapon was considerably longer than its continental counterpart, but still leaves the length in question.

Another chracteristic of the English weapon was its superior strength. An early 14th century English inquiry into the murder of Simon de Skeltington records the instrument of death as an arrow shot from a five foot seven inch bow. "The wound measured three inches long by two inches wide and six inches deep". This was the powerful weapon used by Edward III and his son, the Black Prince, in the Hundred Years War.

The two current authorities both agree the weapon was much stronger than our present day bows. Count M. Mildmay Stayner, Recorder of the British Long Bow Society, estimates the bows of the Medieval period drew between 90 and 110 pounds, maximum. Mr. W.F. Paterson, Chairman of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, believes the weapon had a supreme draw weight of only 80 to 90 pounds.

A bow of the strength described by Stayner and Paterson would project a war arrow a long distance. But here again, no one is sure how far: Stayner believes the war arrow had an effective range of 180 yards; Paterson maintains a slightly further distance of 200 yards; and Bartelot estimates a useful range of 249 yards. Captain George Burnet, Secretary to the Royal Scottish Archers, notes that the members of the Queen's Body Guard for Scotland, who still shoot, use six foot long self yew bows of 55 to 60 pounds draw weight. The range of these modern bows is 180-200 yards shooting light target shafts.

The longbow, because of its rapidity of fire, was a medieval machine gun. It has been calculated that a bowman of the Hundred Years War period, when military archery was at its zenith, could shoot 10 to 12 arrows a minute. The closest weapon in range and strength to the longbow was the crossbow. But, as the battle of Crecy (1346) showed, even the superior Genoese composite crossbow - made of wood, horn, sinew and glue - was no match for the English weapon.16

After firearms were introduced into continental warfare, Sir John Smythe, soldier of fortune, and Queen Elizabeth's ambassador to the Spanish Court of Philip II, noted that "archers are able to discharge four or five arrows apiece before the harquebusies shall be ready to discharge one bullet.

The reason for present day confusion and controversy over the longbow is the limited number of surviving artifacts. There are no longbows in existence from the Early Middle Ages. There are, however, five surviving Renaisance weapons.

All of these bows are similar. They are nearly six feet long; made of wood; shaped in order to use both the centre and sap wood; are symmetrically tapered; and appear to have a very stiff draw weight. What is more, all five weapons are self bows. This means that they are made from a single stave of wood. Horace Ford, Champion Archer of England from 1850 to 1859, and an authority on English archery, maintained:
"The self bow of a single stave is the real old English weapon - the one with which the mighty deeds that rendered this country renounced in by-gone times were performed."

The first of the five surviving bows, by tradition, dates from the Battle of Flodden (1513). Burnet verifies that the artifact hangs on the wall of Archers Hall, headquarters of Royal Scottish Archers, in Edinburgh.

About the turn of the twentieth century, Colonel Fergusson of Huntly Burn presented it to Mr. Peter Muir of the Royal Scottish Archers. Fergusson claimed the artifact from the rafters of a house near Flodden Field where it had been for generations.

The Flodden Bow is a self yew weapon, 'probably of English yew", approximately six feet long, and "rather roughly made". The estimated strength of the weapon is between 80 and 90 pounds. Burnet's decription can be deceiving. The rough appearance of the weapon does not imply it was poorly made.

Most yew, even the kind that makes the finest bows, is quite irregular in appearance.The sapwood of the stave, following the longitudinal line of the trunk, rises and falls and tilts upwards or down in places. It has 'pins' (tiny black knots) too, as a rule."

It is ironic that a weapon should survive from this battle. "Flodden is a landmark in the history of archery, as the last battle on English soil to be fought with the longbow as the principle weapon..." Modern authors maintain that the victory of Flodden was due to archery. Indeed Longman and Walrond in their book, Archery, maintain that a 1515 statute endorsing the use of, and practice with the bow was a result of the victory. These authorities are probably correct, but not for the reasons they believe. The sole contemporary account of the battle notes "that a few of thaim (the Scots) wer slaine with arrows, how be it the billes (spears with hooks on the head) did beat and hew thaim downe..." It is apparent that the law was passed because of the poor showing of the archers.

The most interesting and least known Renaissance longbow comes from the armoury of the church in the village of Mendlesham in Suffolk, England. Records show it was there in the reign of Queen Elizabeth; however, Paterson believes it may date back to the time of Henry VIII.

Unfortunately, the Mendlesham Bow is broken. It is a self bow of 53 inches length. Paterson believes: "Assuming that the mid-point of the bow is about one inch above the centre of the grip, this would suggest a bow length of about 68-69 inches - if the remnant is an upper limb - or about 71 inches if it is the lower limb. I am inclined to suggest the former as the more likely choice."

The surviving limb tip is shaped to take a horn nock for the bow string loop. That would make the total length of the bow a little over six feet tall. Measurements suggest a draw-weight of 80 pounds at 28 inches.

The Mendlesham Bow, a typical longbow, is also unique for two reasons. First, although it is shaped to use the properties of the yew centre and sap wood; the bow's "cross-section approximated more closely to a rectangle with the corners rounded, than the reputed traditional 'D'-form" found in the other four artifacts. Second, the longitudinal taper of the bow limb is not straight but whip ended. This would better distribute the stress as the bow is drawn and force it to bend in an elipse instead of an arc.

Like the two previous artifacts, the Hedgeley Moor Bow is also something of a mystery. It is reputed to have been used at the Battle of Hedgeley Moor (1464), during the War of the Roses. The weapon was presented to Alnwick Castle by John Wilkinson, whose family lived on the Castle estate from the time of the battle.
"It is 65.5 inches inches in length, 3.5 inches at its greatest girth, with greatest width of 1.5 inches. The wood is probably yew..."

There are no nocks, but the ends have been notched to take a string. "At mid-point where the handle is, there are two deep cuts which look remakably of the shape of a bodkin head (sic) would make if it were overdrawn." Draw weight is estimated at 50 pounds.

The remaining two Renaissance longbows, like the Mendlesham artifact, come from the reign of Henry VIII. Unlike the Flodden and Hedgeley Moor Bows, we are sure of the age and use of these artifacts. They were recovered in 1836 by John Deane from H.M.S. Mary Rose. The Mary Rose, flag ship of the British fleet, sank off Portsmouth while engaging an invading French squadron on Sunday, 19th July, 1545.

These two bows are on display in the Armouries in the Tower of London. Inventory records show that they are made of yew wood, "of rounded section, tapered at tips to take the nocks, now missing". The largest of the bows is 75 inches long.The smaller stave is 72.75 inches long. Both bows are 4.5 inches at "greatest girth" and weigh 1 pound, 10 ounces. They are symmetrical weapons, utilising the same 'D'-shape as the Floddern Bow.

Both weapons are unfinished looking, but as pointed out previously, this is a characteristic of yew wood. Ford, in his study of the Mary Rose bows, notes that they are self bows, made from "foreign yew" and had an estimated draw weight of 65 to 70 pounds.36

The variation in length between the Mary Rose, the Flodden, and the Mendlesham bows; as opposed to the Hedgeley Moor artifact, lies in the fact that the individual archer had his personal bow made to measure. The Mary Rose weapons were arsenal issues meant to suit the tallest men in service. Shorter men would cut their weapons down to suit their height and arm length. This point is supported by Roger Ascham's treatise on Archery, Toxophilus, published in 1545.

During the Middle Ages, the yeoman archer was illiterate, while the scholars of the day, by virtue of their noble birth, had little knowledge of archery. Ascham was both a scholar and an ardent archer. As tutor to Elizabeth I, he had considerable influence on the royal family and was favoured by Henry VIII for his writing on this subject. Commenting on the selection and adjustment of a longbow, Ascham writes: "Take your bow in to the field, shote in hym, synke hym wyth deade heauye shaftes...whe(n) you haue thus shot in hym, and perceyued good shootynge woode in hym, you must have hym agayne to a good cunnynge, and trustie woorkeman, whyche shall cut hym shorter, and pyke him and dresse hym fytter."

All five weapons are remarkably similar and may be said to be typical longbows. They are approximately six feet tall, made of the sap and centrewood of the yew tree, are rough looking, and stiff weapons pulling between 65 and 90 pounds. Given this draw weight, a maximum effective range of approximately 200 yards with a heavy war missile is not unreasonable, especially considering the performance of the present day Scottish Archers.

The making of logbows changed little from the Medieval period until the turn of the twentieth century. They still were wooden self bows utilising the centre and sapwood of the stave. The best bows continued to be made of yew wood; and all bows were made by hand thus, each was unique.

According to Ford, yew was the only wood for a self bow, and the best yew came from Spain and Italy. The foreign wood is "straigther, finer in grain, freer from pins, stiffer and denser in quality, and requires less bulk in proportion to the strength of the bow". Stayner adds that the best wood is grown in the poor soil of the mountains; this produced the desired light grained wood.39 Ascham described the best yew for bow staves as coloured:
"...lyke virgin wax or golde, having a fine longe grayne, even from the one ende of the bowe, to the other... the short grayne are for a most part very brittle."

Staves were cut only in winter, when the sap was down. Stayner notes that the yew wood trade was tied to the wine trade. To insure an adequate supply of bows, "at one time, all wine imports (from Southern France) had to have longbow staves in the cargo as well."

Why was yew such a superior wood for bow making? The natural properties of yew are much like a modern thermostat: by skillfully cutting and shaping the stave in a 'D'-section, a layer of sapwood was left along the flattened back of the bow.

"When a bow is drawn, the inside face of the arc undergoes compression while the outer surface is stretched. The heartwood of yew is able to withstand compression and its sapwood is elastic by nature, and both tend to return to their original straightness when the bow is loosed."

Bows were not made all at once. Cut down in winter, they were roughed out and left to cure for a year or two. After the bow was "seasoned", it was worked in slow stages into the finished product. Often these steps occurred at intervals of a year for three or four years.

Once the bow was made, it would provide long service with minimum maintanance. Smythe tells us that archers of the Hundred Years War used to rub a mixture of "wax, resin, and fine tallow" into the bow to protect it from "all weather of heat, frost, and wet". Ascham says that the archers also had bow cases, not of leather, but of canvas or wool to protect their bows from the elements.

Bow strings were of two materials: in the sixteenth century, strings were made of "good hempe...(but, earlier, strings were made of)...fine Flaxe or Sylk". A waterproof glue was used to preserve the Renaissance bow string and it was reinforced by a whipping of fine thread. The strings were attached to nocks made of bone or horn.

The English Medieval war arrow, like the longbow, is a controversial subject. Known as the clothyard shaft, it was efficient, cheap, capable of being mass-produced, and "made in greater numbers than any other type of arrow in history".50 But few sources agree to its length: estimates range from 27 to 36 inches.

A close examination of the sources tend to point to approximately 27 inches as the correct figure. The clothyard was not a standard yard.The term comes from the reign of Edward III, when he introduced Flemish weavers into England. The weavers brought their own system of measurement with them. Known as the "clothyard ", "clothier's yard", "ell", or "Flemish yard", it was 27 4/10 inches long. The late John E. Morris, the acknowledged authority on the military organisation and tactics of Edward I, supports this conclusion by noting that a draw length of 36 inches from a 65 pound or strong bow is biomechanically impossible.

The final and most conclusive argument for a war arrow length of a "Flemish yard" is the sole surviving Medieval war arrow. The artifact, now in the Library of Westminster Abbey, was found in one of the turrets of the Chapter House in 1878. The exact age of the arrow is unknown; but, due to the construction of the war head, it was probably made during the second half of the Hundred Years War. Dr. Howard M. Nixon, Abbey Librarian, notes the head belogns to type 16 in the London Museum Catalogue:
"This is a typical medieval war head, with small barbs to prevent the arrow from being easily withdrawn. It seems likely that the wood is either ash or birch."

This type of war head was devised to negate the protection offered by the combination mail and plate armour, which came into wide use after the Battle of Poitiers (1356). (Froissart tells us that the archers of the Black Prince shot (broadhead) "bearded" arrows). The Chapter House Arrow is 30.5 inches long. The diameter of the shaft varies from 1.07 centimeters at the war head to a maximum of 1.14 centimeters at a distance of 30.5 centimeters from head. The diameter reduces to 0.756 centimeters at the nock. The total weight is 1.5 ounces.56 This arrow is a 27 inch shaft (approximately) mounted to a 4 inch or 5 inch socketed war head.

---

Somebody asked me to review this because it's a non-music copy-paste article far in excess of our one-scree limit for non-music copy-pasting. It is available elsewhere on the Internet (click here), but I think I'll let it stay because it is information that is very closely related to folklore.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 06:18 PM

A copyrighted article belonging to the Society of Archer-Antiquaries and first published in the Journal of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, volume 23, 1980.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,Clareling
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM

Rifles, pistols, machine guns, handy guns, dandy guns, bombs, longbows, shortbows, fatbows, skinnybows, bows-with-large-hips, kitchen knives, Bowie kives, pocket knives, boot knives, bricks, chairs, tables, falling pianos, kitchen appliances, jelly jars, large books, etc.
It dosent matter the 'instrument of death', murder can be commited with bare hands and is everyday. Guns or no guns, if tempers and situations are not handled correctly, the results can be deadly. Parents, employers, teachers, friends...paying attention to thoes around us could prevent some of this, not all, but some.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:06 PM

And here is a link to the article - The Medieval English Longbow
by Robert E. Kaiser, M.A.

Much easier to read in the original - a link and a quote is a more satisfactory way of drawing an artivle to the notice of other people.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM

Charming lad. Still no identification, still personal abuse. Oh well. Still, I'm amused to find you shooting yourself in the foot (I don't much care what with!).

"The longbow was the machine gun of the Middle Ages..."

Exactly. Now since when has machine gun been "...being the equivalent of a personal firearm..."?

Your quote of Ed.III's Act is still grossly out of context, & not relevant to any modern discussion on gun ownership; your remark about crossbows still just as incorrect.

Moderately interesting article, though, thank you for that. I could take issue with some of it (though given that it was written before the Mary Rose was raised, this wouldn't be entirely fair on my part), but I don't think I'll waste my time arguing with *you* about it. Whoever you are.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 07:15 PM

blue clicky, maybe????

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 08:29 PM

Raedwulf, do some research on automatics will you please?

A type of crossbow used by the Chinese since at least 210 B.C. was a repeating design with a gravity-fed box magazine! The magazine was situated above the bolt track. When the lever at the rear of the crossbow was first raised and then lowered, the box moved forward, caught the string in a wooden recess and drew it to full cock, dropped a bolt into the track and released the string. These crossbows were neither powerful nor accurate, but they could launch a bolt every second or two until the magazine emptied. Poison was usually smeared on the points to increase their lethality.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Apr 03 - 10:42 PM

1252 AD - 'Assize of Arms' - those men owning land worth between 40-100 shillings were required to equip themselves with a sword, dagger, bow and arrows. Those owning less than 40 shillings worth of land had to equip themselves with bow and arrows. All men between the age of 15 to 60 years old were ordered to equip themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: The Walrus
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 06:32 AM

"...A type of crossbow used by the Chinese since at least 210 B.C. was a repeating design with a gravity-fed box magazine!..."

There was a chap in Britain who built an automatic/semi-automatic heavy cross-bow (ballista?) based on Roman writings of 1st Century AD(no drawings, so a little speculative).
As I recall, this also has a box magazing but with a rotary cylinder feed for the bolt.
The weapon worked by cranking a handle forward to pick up the string then back to tension the string and loose the bolt ('fire the weapon' didn't seem quite right). When they demonstrated the weapon on TV (albeit with much reduced tension on the arms) they were getting a rate of about 12 rounds per min and very close grouping.

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:10 PM

interesting article about the longbow - although Id heard that it originated in Wales. Ie. Henry V's grandfather discovered it being used in there (My source Connections - James Burke)
and it was the weapon that decimated the French nobility in Crecy and Agincourt - plus the fact that the French Knights on horseback charged through marshy ground, getting stuck and making easy targets.

the other interesting tidbit - dont know whether its true, supposedly the UK two finger salute (reverse victory) comes from longbow references - ie. captured English longbowmen would have their index and middle fingers chopped off - rendering them useless for archery.
so often they would show their bow fingers to the French to show they still have them and to refer to Crecy & Agincourt.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: gnu
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:26 PM

Just got around to reading a newspaper a few days old and saw that two young men were caught with stolen goods a few streets over from a home invasion here in Moncton, NB, Canada. Seems they couldn't break into the second victim's house, so they rang the doorbell. The cops were searching around the first victims' house, an ellderly couple, when a call came in from another elderly person about the doorbell ringing. Yeah, gun laws me arse. People, especially the elderly, aren't safe in their own homes anymore, BECAUSE of the new gun laws. I am not against gun laws, just against poorly thought out and poorly written gun laws.

Of course, I'm not referring to handguns or machine pistols or light machine guns. These have been restricted from public carry and to ownership by permit only since the thirties in Canada. And I support compulsory education and permits to own long guns. But the way these laws are written gives the criminals something they should never have... an edge over law abiding citizens. Imagine a law that punishes me more than a crook if the SOB breaks into my house and steals a gun and commits a crime with it.

If the laws were reasonable and logical there wouldn't be so many gun owners opposed to legislation. Unfortunately, the anti-gun crowd is neither reasonable or logical. I hope the NRA never gives up the fight and doesn't back down one inch... not one inch. We did here in Canada and now we have laws that create crime and treat law abiding citizens like criminals.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM

Given their way, the NRA would have AK47s and submachine guns in ANY home that wanted them- and no records kept. Is that what you want?

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 03:42 PM

What's that story got to do with gnu laws anyway? I mean how would it have panned out better if one of those people had shot the fella ringing the doorbell?

Not to mention some other guy who might be ringing the doorbell because he was a Jehovah's Witness or a postman?

All the statistics I've seen seem to indicate that the most likely person to get shot by householders with guns are other members of their family and harmless visitors.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 06:51 PM

McGrath. The statistics you quote remind me of another quote. "there are liars, damned liars, and statisticians.
http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/cowards.htm

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Apr 03 - 07:08 PM

"Gnu laws"? We don't have gnu laws in Canada yet. It's an interesting thought, though...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Hillheader
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 01:08 PM

At what stage do we say that someone is not fit to possess a gun? Does the manic depressive have the right to a gun? Or the Schizophrenic? And to any gun? An AK47 perhaps?. At what stage of his illness would Charlton Heston have his gun licence revoked?

And sorry Walrus, but the analogy re cars is not appropiate. Very few people die because a car is deliberately driven AT them with the sole purpose of killing them. And also (given the chance) people will run out the way of a car. Do we ban planes because they crash? Or trains because they can be derailed? Or pavements because people trip on them and could die? Or computers because one blew up and caused a fire?

I understand the freedom issue in the US but I think that "the right to bear arms" really equates to "the right to take life" and I cannot support that.

Davebhoy

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: gnu
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 03:57 PM

Ebbie... I "want" the NRA to hold out for reasonable and logical gun laws. AK's in the home is not logical, but if the alternative is creating crime and criminals through illogical and poorly written laws, pass me the 60 round clip.

McGrath... that SOB who rang the doorbell will probably be out in three months robbing elderly people again because our gun laws prohibit defense of life and property by the use of firearms... perhaps we could buy him a ticket to Harlow ?

Davebhoy... perhaps we could buy you a ticket to Harlow ?

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:01 PM

Nice try, Guest, but:

"...the Crossbow became the assault rifle of its day (requiring less training to use than the Longbow)..."

You were directly comparing C/bows with L/bows. Going back to a BC Chinese weapon (& yes I did know vaguely about it, though I couldn't have given you a date) doesn't wash. You were talking about medieval times, not 200BC. Unless you know better, I certainly don't know of any medieval equivalent to this weapon!

Of course the 210BC crossbow is approximately analogous to an AK47, I'll concede that, but if you really were thinking about that weapon when you made the original quote that I picked you up on, you needed to have explained yourself a LOT better in the first place!

Incidentally, any idea what the evidence for poison on the bolts is? Only I'm inclined to think that excrement was perhaps more likely to have been used, being rather more readily available, & probably as effective (over the course of a few days). Nasty, but true...

As to the Assize of Arms, again, so what? You are again quoting an entirely military law that has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on a modern debate about the accessibility of arms to ordinary people (i.e. civilians). If I can find time, I might do a more detailed explanation of this point, but I did say I was going to try not to get involved in yet another argument about guns! ;)

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Hillheader
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 04:31 PM

Gnu

So long as it's not to where you are, as anyone asking for help is liable to become another statistic.

Harlow sounds good....

Davebhoy

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 05:15 PM

These bastards who go round ringing doorbells are asking for it!

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Hillheader
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 05:31 PM

McGrath

I agree to an extent. Some have been known to ring twice so you think they're postmen but killing is a bit much. Perhaps we could threaten to deport them. Is St Kilda still uninhabited? Or just make them drink Watneys Starlight Bitter.....

Davebhoy

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 07:10 PM

Anyone remember the foreign student who spoke little English? He was invited to a Halloween party, showed up in costume at the house of an elderly couple by mistake and was shot to death because he did not understand that he was being ordered off the property. The couple thought that they were being robbed.

A tragedy for both. But maybe if the husband had not had a gun, he would have shut the door and let the police sort it out.

I am not against the ownership of guns by people who can use them responsibly. If fear, age, illness, anger, etc. are going to cloud your judgement, you have no business owning one.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 07:41 PM

From what I've heard it wasn't ever the gun laws in either the UK or the US that have been the problem. It's the failure on the part of the responsible agencies to make sure they're properly enforced? In the UK, both Michael Ryan (Hungerford) & Thomas Hamilton (Dunblane) are prime examples...

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:18 PM

For long periods of time, the English people were subject to numerous laws promoting the use of the longbow. There were often laws concerning the compulsory ownership of longbows for people in certain wage categories. Under the reign of King Henry II, everyone who earned 2-5 pounds per year had to be armed with bows (Assize of Arms, 1242 CE) (Wilkinson, pp.164). It was mandatory to practice in the bow on Sundays for many English citizens. Churches were required to maintain butts (targets) so that anyone could practice in the bow. There were even rules about the distance one must shoot at the butts from. Keep in mind that these laws were not intended for professional soldiers, for there were very few in those days. (Professional soldiers were mercenaries, not members of a standing army.) These laws were intended for the average citizen, who might be called upon at some point to fight for England.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:30 PM

From Raedwulf:

"From what I've heard it wasn't ever the gun laws in either the UK or the US that have been the problem. It's the failure on the part of the responsible agencies to make sure they're properly enforced."

I do believe that when anyone is in a state of extreme emotion -- fear, panic, anger, whatever -- that no gun law is going to make a difference to what he/she does.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 09:53 PM

Raedwulf: I am sorry I dont know what poison the Chinese used; but from all accounts it was made from the sap of a tree and was deadly.
The use of bubonic plague bacteria, and gaseous gangrene pus, it caused slow death therefore was not very effective. Chinese knowledge of herbs and medecines was far more advanced. We do know the Romans used Taxol a substance derived from the sap and leaves of the Yew tree (Longbow wood LOL)to poison arrow heads; and just recently a doctor friend of mine was saying they were using Taxol in certain cancer treatments. History is wonderful isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 10:12 PM

Taxol is used in the treatment of breast cancer, from what I remember. In certain novels, I seem to recall, arrows were tipped with curare?

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Apr 03 - 10:30 PM

Out of curiosity, I unearthed the following tidbit. Numerous peoples far more primitive than the Chinese figured out poison and darts and arrows; it seemed the Chinese would have, too.

Baicao, literally, 'white grass' or 'white herb.' It is identified in CICA, p. 85, n. 89 as being either the common bittersweet or woody nightshade (Solanium dulcamara L.), or the creeper Ampelopsis serianaefolia, "identified by the Japanese as the sorrel vine." However, I can find no evidence that either of these plants has ever been used to make arrow poison, although the woody nightshade is, of course, poisonous.
       It seems far more likely that it refers to one of the several aconite species (also known in English as monkshood or wolfsbane) that are commonly found across Europe and Asia. They are known to have been used as arrow poisons right up until modern times amongst the Ainu in northern Japan, and the Minaro in Ladakh (Peissel, Michel, 1984: 99-100). They were also used as a poison in the region of Lake Issyk-kol in modern Kyrgyzstan (St. George, George, et al. 1974: 167, 170).
       The Chinese were quick to make use of their knowledge of arrow poison. We find in the Biography of Geng Gong in Chapter 49 of the Hou Han shu that in 75 CE:

"The Xiongnu then conquered and killed Ande, the king of the Further Tribe. Then they attacked the town of Qinpu (near Guchen). (Geng) Gong climbed onto the ramparts, and led his soldiers into battle. He coated his arrows with a poison, and spread the rumour among the Xiongnu that the Han had sacred arrows, and the wounds of those who were hit would certainly be extraordinary. Then he used powerful crossbows to shoot these arrows. The barbarians who were hit noticed that their wounds were all frothing up. They were very frightened then.
...
The baicao of the Hou Han shu must surely refer to one of the wild species of aconite which were used to prepare arrow poisons and are reported as being abundant in the mountains surrounding the Tarim Basin. The following Chinese account from the 17th century briefly describes how they were prepared:

"In making poison arrows for shooting wild beasts, the tubers of wild aconitum are boiled in water. The resulting liquid, being highly viscous and poisonous, is smeared on the sharp edges of arrowheads. These treated arrowheads are effective in the quick killing of both human beings and animals, even though the victim may shed only a trace of blood." Sung (1637), p. 267.

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: Nerd
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:11 AM

Petr: I think you've been had. The story that cutting off the fingers was used to prevent an Englishman from shooting, and that therefore displaying the fingers was an act of defiance, is as far as I know just an old joke. The continuation is that the act of shooting a longbow was referred to as "plucking yew," and that the English therefore customarily display these fingers while shouting "I can still pluck yew. PLUCK YEW!!!"

GUEST: The laws regarding archery practice in medieval England are irrelevant to the question of civilian ownership of military hardware in the US today for precisely the same reason that the second amendment is irrelevant: both were intended to create a civilian militia that the government could call upon to defend or attack in times of war. Both the fourteenth century English and the eighteenth century American governments needed armed men, because they did not have (or did not want to spend) the resources to arm their citizen soldiers themselves. This has changed today. Given the fact of our enormous military budgets funded by taxes, given that we have a large enough standing army and reserves to do battle for a good long time while we train new soldiers, and given that no US army unit would require a soldier to go into battle with his own weapons brought from home, these measures lose their relevance. We simply do not need people in every town to have guns on the wall in order to maintain a "well-organized militia" or mount a defense of the realm. Thus, with the exception of hunting rifles, why do we need guns? And most particularly, why do we need assault weapons? No frustrated cutting-and-pasting of treatises on the longbow will make the overall analogy any stronger.

Also, as a folklorist and oral historian, I'd like to add that it's simply not true to say "All knowledge comes from books letters and discussion not personal memories" In fact, all my knowledge comes from personal memories...though I concede that many of those memories are memories of having read books and participated in discussions. *bg* Seriously, though, even people who cannot read often have incredible and irreplaceable knowledge...

Oh, and please don't tell Raedwulf to Fuck Off, as that is simply rude. It's so much nicer to wish him a good time in his archery pursuits, thus: "Pluck yew, Raedwulf!" (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:40 AM

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

Sigmund Freud in "General Introduction to Psychoanalysis"

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 03 - 03:43 AM

Dear Nerd. You are wrong. Best Regards. Guest

Subject: RE: BS: 'From my cold, dead hands' farewell
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 03 - 04:03 AM

Interesting and nasty stuff: curare.

Well said, Nerd.