BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Amos
Date: 18 May 03 - 11:08 AM

Bowing down to Wittgenstein was an error in judgement.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Peg
Date: 18 May 03 - 11:32 AM

well, this writer is coming late tot he thread, and hasn't had enough caffeinated libation this morning...but I do want to say I have enjoyed this immensely over the last several days.

I want to echo a point made earlier and try to get under its skin. I personally love that feeling that sometimes arises when one is reading a great piece of writing (usually a novel) wherein I am simultaneously appreciating the writer's craft, and also remaining drawn in by the story and eagerly anticipating the next place it will go.

When the writer errs on the side of overdoing the verbal gymnastics or technique, or manipulates that moment too far, I am lost. It is a VERY fine line...I am sure others hear woudl agree. But that fine line of course differs for all readers.

I think I notice this most with novels because this form can (and is designed to) sustain one's interest for an extended period. This also makes the potential dive into showboating more likely...although I also want to say the short stories of Elizabeth Bowen create the same pleasurable, thrilled reaction in me. Such grace, art and finely-tuned emotion...

Novels (off the top of my head) which I have enjoyed for the reasons stated above:

Possession by A.S. Byatt
The Secret History by Donna Tartt
Perfume by Patrick Suskind (translated from the German)
Jitterbug Perfume by Tom Robbins
In the Land of Winter by Richard Grant
Children of Light by Robert Stone
American Gods by Neil Gaiman
The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood
Friends and Family by Anita Brookner (though lately her books bore me to tears)

I do NOT enjoy the overly-literate, footnoted, postmodernesque style that seems in vogue just now, the sort of hyper-verbose Kerouac-inspired stuff by those guys with three names that are selling big now...a big yawn. Reading shouldn't be so much work...and it's pretentious to the extreme to write this way since the author must know only a handful of readers will "get it" all...I forget the authors' names, but books like Infinite Jest, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Sam L
Date: 18 May 03 - 12:59 PM

S.R.S., I suppose so, but that so many people disagree as to greatness doesn't really change my idea about it. People are wrong.

   Having an opinion about art is like misplacing a twenty dollar bill somewhere--there's no authority to appeal your case to, no re-imbursement of the value you may feel you've earned.

    It's just a matter of what we find convincing. But the idea I tried to illustrate helps me understand why some stuff continues to matter, despite so many weaknesses, whereas other smoother and cleaner stuff passes with fashion. The meanings in greater works are more deeply rooted in the form and conception and raw material of the work, and not simply talked about in whichever form and manner was adopted, uncritically, as the way an artist is "supposed to do it". In great work, what the work actually is matters more than whatever it says. I suppose I'm a formalist.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Amos
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:12 PM

Above a certain (pretty low) threshold we can't spare anybody.



This leaps out (in my view) as a really Great Thought, Clint. Thanks!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 May 03 - 01:44 PM

I had (mis)remembered this as a Mark Twain quote, but a Google search corrected me:

Read over your compositions, and wherever you meet with a passage which you think is particularly fine, strike it out.   
-Samuel Johnson-

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Frankham
Date: 18 May 03 - 03:34 PM

Rick,

I think there's a connection between great writing and great music. Now that doesn't answer the question, what is it?

To me great music and great writing includes great editing.
Everything that needs to be said is said. Nothing else.

A walk down a path..interesting scenery (maybe something you've never seen before)...makes you feel something...it's memorable...makes you think..and doesn't have distracting trash.....

Great words paint great pictures. A character comes to life with a few word-strokes.

Example: (EB White. Great writing.)

Warning on bottle: What's considered great in one generation may not be so in another.

A word is like a note or a chord. In great writing, each means something special.

My 2 cents

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 May 03 - 03:49 PM

When people started communicating with others, whether to provide information or entertainment, I suspect that embellishments crept in. Not "the sun came up" but "rosy fingered dawn" since it made the tale more appealing to the minds of the hearers.

There's nothing at all wrong with making a good yarn entertaining (and/or informative). Perhaps greatness is just something achieved by the very best tale-tellers.

(I've always said that there are no good books in a library, 'cause nobody reads a bad book, so all the good ones are always checked out.)

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 03 - 06:31 PM

Whoever thinks a faultless piece to see, Thinks what ne'er was, nor is, nor e'er shall be. In every work regard the writer's end, Since none can compass more than they intend, and if the means be just, the conduct true, applause in spite of trivial faults is due. Pope

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 May 03 - 12:37 AM

Fred,

I'm enough of a postmodernist to resist the lost $20 analogy about judging art. Much of what a reader understands about a work is based on what they already understood before they even picked up the new book. What they bring with them to the text means that every book can be subjected to many different readings, and that while some people understand a great deal, others might miss much of the action.

"The song is very short, because we understand so much" is what Maria Chona told Ruth Underhill, when anthropologist Underhill asked Papago Chona about the songs she was singing, and why there was so little to them. The cultural literacy and/or baggage makes a difference to understanding songs or novels. Some things are best when aimed at the lowest common denominator, others suffer for it.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 May 03 - 12:42 AM

Rick-
As I'm sure you realized, I think that good writing, good guitar playing, good painting and good any other artistic endeavor have similar considerations. In any of these, there's a component which is an art and one which is a craft. "Good" anything is when the craft is adequate to express the art; "Bad" is when there's too much or too little of the craft.

That said, the ideal proportions of "art" and "craft" depend upon the one who's reading, or listening or looking. I suspect that in most works you encounter, there's too much craft and not enough art.

As far as "Great" is concerned, I suspect the language would be better off if the word were banned. Something like "very".

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Amos
Date: 19 May 03 - 01:27 AM

I'm, like, "Great!", Dick! Like, I hear what you're saying and its reeely reeely very very good, like. I'm like, ya know??? I'm like, there!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 19 May 03 - 04:01 AM

A gallery manager who was quite intelligent mentioned that Mark Twain had said (though I am not sure)..."strike out every third word." It certainly does help readability.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 19 May 03 - 05:25 AM

SRS, that Nevil Shute book is "The Trustee from the Toolroom" and it was a boat that was wrecked, not a plane. Good yarn, though.

Some of Shute's stuff is magnificient, like "Round the Bend" and "A Town Like Alice." A lot of the rest of it was far-fetched garbage - IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: John Hardly
Date: 19 May 03 - 10:20 AM

Good writing wins Pulitzer Prizes.
Great writing gets chosen for the Oprah book club.

Good writers hardly ever use bugger or fart humor.
Great writers never do -- except for Dave Barry.

Good writers occasionally write happy endings.
Great writers never do.

Good writers masterfully disuise their cliche's.
Great writers invent them.

Good writers walk among us.
Great writers are dead.

Critics suck.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 03 - 10:40 AM

John, I disagree about happy endings. Great writers do write happy endings, but the journey to the end is usually fraught with chaos.

Moby Dick is probably not a good example, as it was a colossal failure during Melville's lifetime. His own audience didn't consider it great writing.

What constitutes good writing to me is, whether or not I believe what the author is telling me. Tolkien makes me believe that hobbits and elves and black riders are all Real. Anne Rice, on the other hand, does not at all convince me of the existence of vampires. I know she is a Popular Writer but quite frankly, I think a high school senior who knows the difference between a noun and a verb could do just as well.

I have a dear friend who is a writer and an English professor, and once he wrote to me, "The creative act is a holy thing, and God asks only that you speak true and honest."

I believe it's that honesty in a writer that makes for great writing. It's very evident when an artist of any type lets their spirit shine through their work. I know for me, it's the sincerity of that spirit that draws me in.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: John Hardly
Date: 19 May 03 - 11:56 AM

disguise. Omission of letters -- mark of a poor writer!

Kim, I was only half serious about happy endings (and less than half about the rest of my list) ;^)

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 03 - 12:59 PM

Well, I kinda figured that, but what the heck. It makes for good conversation!

Leaving out letters is the mark of a poor typist - not necessarily a poor writer! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 May 03 - 01:21 PM

Both good and great writers learn the importance of proofreading, if not by themselves, then by knowledgeable proofreaders. Or preferably both! And THEN mistakes almost inevitably show up.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Peter T.
Date: 19 May 03 - 01:41 PM

I don't know. F. Scott Fitzgerald couldn't spell worth shit. He never seems to have learned. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 03 - 03:38 PM

I am currently reading "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron, and while I am enjoying it, and finding it helpful, I can't help but notice there's a TON of typos in it! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Amos
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:02 PM

Typographical accuracy is the result of a totally different sort of training and thought than excellent craft in writing. It is quite possible to master both but they really are different ways of being before the page. And thereby hangs a great tale -- "Ten Years Before the Page -- A Writer's Confessions", which i shall ask Peter to write.


A

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Sam L
Date: 19 May 03 - 07:07 PM

S.R.S., I'm not sure I meant that the way you took it. I just mean that although there's not any objective way to support it, one can still give themselves permission to feel sure of a few things. It may just be your opinion, still you can maintain it, wholeheartedly. We're all grown-ups, except for the kids, and don't have to always mouse around with open-ended evasions and polite shrugs.

   Many people prefer some kinds of art, which they don't really care very much about anyway, to other kinds of art, that they actually hate. Given this, it's not such a bad deal to validate your own values, despite that people may disagree. At least it introduces some charged positive energy into things.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 May 03 - 12:37 AM

Hrothgar, yes, that's it. I think I read the novel 30 years ago at least, so I was doing pretty well to remember any of it. The guy was a tinkerer with minature engines.

Fred, forming opinions is what we all do, and we form opinions about things we like and from there figure out what we dislike. How we refer to what we dislike is the question here--whether we see the like/dislike comparisons as total opposites (binary) or by degree. I think the binaries exclude and/or include too much, so I prefer the sliding scale for comparison. I don't want to try to extend this out any further--I have certainly expressed my likes and dislikes over the years via Mudcat--and it's easy enough to contradict yourself in regular conversation, let alone in a site where it is all archived!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 20 May 03 - 09:40 AM

What I want to know is, what constitutes good poetry? How does someone get to be a "poet"? How is modern, non-rhyming poetry different from prose, aside from the fact that it's written in lines instead of paragraphs? Why would I, a songwriter, be in such a quandary about poetry, when songwriting is a cousin to it? (some people may say it's the same, and in some ways it is, but in my mind it's different)

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Sam L
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:00 AM

I'm not much of a reader of poetry, usually prefer fiction, but one respectable point of view is that metaphor is the main element of poetry, and that rhymes and meter and all else are secondary. There isn't really a hard line between prose and poetry. I 'found' a poem once in the clues and solution to a jumble-puzzle. But the intent of a poem signals that it's meant to be read with aesthetic attention, the way a book of fiction signals that it's not a history or memoir or something. I think the intent is all one can go by. usually.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Peter T.
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:29 AM

"Day One. At sea." (repeat ad infinitum) (Two Years Strapped to the Pen).

Curious reversal, Kim. I couldn't write a song to save my soul, but poetry comes pretty easy (i.e. incredibly hard, but it makes sense doing it).

Poetry is like the shift from graphite to diamonds. It requires a lot of pressure (the pencil of the great poet is 100H), from the stanzaic form, or the need for a rhythm, or just the recalcitrance of words. There are poems that I have written that are absolutely perfect except for one word which will not come, and for which English does not provide. Drives you crazy. (Auden said poems are not finished, just abandoned).

That being the case, non-rhymed verse (actually the bulk of verse in humankind)is very, very hard to write, much harder than rhymed verse, which gives you a default system of pressure within which to work. Just putting down words does not "signify" anything. In non-rhymed verse you usually are trying to "foreground" something that is not usually paid attention to -- for instance in stance -- as soon as I split the word "instance" up it foregrounds the strangeness of the word's elements, which your eye passes over the first time around. A poet can do this with all elements of language (e.g. concrete poetry made up of punctuation marks). Doing that while making a larger statement is where you edge into good poetry, rather than just futzing around.

Ezra Pound was pretty good when he said that poetry is news that stays news.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Amos
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:53 AM

Poetry has places it wanders where no song could survive, where prose just buckles and collapses, and where no-one knows music yet.

What makes it so is a certain fling with insanity or at least wildness, maybe divinity, that knows how to break the machinery of minds in order to let some light into their innards.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 May 03 - 11:39 AM

You might want to peruse this thread for some appreciation of poetry. It's the discussion of sonnets.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Amos
Date: 20 May 03 - 11:54 AM

I am impressed by the talent liberated by the form on that thread, SRS.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 May 03 - 11:57 AM

Amos, I agree! In particular this one by local Mudcat talent!

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 20 May 03 - 01:19 PM

I pretty much abandon most of my poems. But here's the last one I wrote, just for fun:

Pie are square, a noble man
Once cleverly opined
But I don't see how that can be
As pies always look round to me.

Behold the cobbler! Bubbly and hot,
Baking in its juice -
Usually cooked in a pan that's square
Or otherwise rectangulair.

Pie are round, cornbread are square,
Or so I've heard it said.
Although, cornbread may oft be found
To have been baked in a pan that's round.

Pie are square! Still they insist,
And so on till infinity;
So round or square, whate'er your choice
Let us now the humble pie rejoice.

2003 - KFC

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Amos
Date: 20 May 03 - 01:29 PM

LOL, Kim :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 May 03 - 04:22 PM

Bad thread, Rick. You're a musician, and entitled by your trade to act as if you were semi-literate. Never go against that, or people will start showing you their poetry.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 20 May 03 - 04:39 PM

Don't you like pie, Ted?

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Amos
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:05 PM

Good writng? That's when you buy the burger, when you're gongier than a clock, when your innards jump to "Yes!" position before you've issued any such orders. Good writing leaves you done brown and poked in the eye, and nuffin can be done about it, is all. It catches you crying in the sun, never mind who's there. Pow!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: JennyO
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:05 AM

Kim C, you'll be happy to know that in Oz, we have square pies (as well as round ones). Big Ben pies are famous for their shape here, and of course they say it is a square meal.

Sorry for the thread drift.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 21 May 03 - 09:38 AM

Ha! So pie ARE square - at least in some parts of the world!

I agree with Amos. I think that's about the earthiest and most accurate answer to the question I've heard yet.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 May 03 - 04:06 PM

Sorry to disappoint you, Kim, but"Pie", according to my informants, is light verse. It has rhymes, meter, and is both amusing and brief. I have been told that all of these things are terribly out of fashion in poetry.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 03 - 04:57 PM

Doggerel is alive and well in the hearts of men I am sure! It seems to spring from a never-ending source...kinda like rubbing sticks together.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Frankham
Date: 21 May 03 - 08:45 PM

What constitutes good anything in art? Opinions. Either your own or someone elses. Are there such things as educated opinions? Maybe unless wisdom has been destroyed by education as in the case of some critics.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:31 AM

Good writing at MudCat - is short.

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:36 AM

Melvil was genius - so was Shakespeare.

Both escape the comprehension of 95% of the English speaking population.

Their works are "offerings" presented to a sacred few.

Sincerely,

Gargoyle

What people lack in one area    they frequently make up in another.....Rick stick to your lyrical guitar.....literature, and love are not your forte.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Sam L
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:39 AM

Well, I liked "pie", and my sources tell me it's always in fashion to be out of fashion. Stuff matters more than Modernism, Post-Modernism, Puff Daddy P. Diddy Dang Doofusism, the intellectual armatures formerly known as Art.

   Simple and timeless observations don't of themselves make great art, but there'd be nothing great without them.

Robbe-Grillet's observations of how people stand as if paralyzed on escalators. I can't repeat the sentences.

Antony and Cleopatra planning to go out that night to "note the qualities of people".

James Joyce's observation of a woman who bent over to reach the hem of her skirt, and with slow care, detached a clinging twig. His interesting uses of the word "disappointed".

Faulkner's description in The Sound and the Fury of that sound ships make--which I always quote backwards no matter how hard I try not to.

Chekov's glinting bottle glass, which indirectly shows a moonlit night.

Cordelia's desperate appeal to the "unpublished virtues of the earth" which strangely and vividly paints the fields of plants and rocks and weeds.

Proust's 30 pages about going to sleep, and his memory of the smell of the stairs.

Tolstoy describing farm work. The mushrooms that seem to be mentioned whenever people fail to make connections.

The maid in Kafka's metamorphasis, slamming all the doors of the house.

Andre Bely's use of the semi-colon, as in "Ivan entered the room and saw; a chair.

Great and inspired details.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:26 PM

A quite topical poem I revisited today: "The Lie" by Raleigh (here it is at Bartleby and here are a few notes about it. ("The Lie" rhymes with Pie--and is also what "a noble man once cleverly opined. . .").--SRS

THE LIE

by: Sir Walter Raleigh

GO, Soul, the body's guest,
Upon a thankless arrant!
Fear not to touch the best;
The truth shall be thy warrant:
Go, since I needs must die,
And give the world the lie.

Say to the court it glows
And shines like rotten wood;
Say to the church it shows
What's good, and doth no good:
If court and church reply,
Then give them both the lie.

Tell potentates they live
Acting by others' action,
Not loved unless they give,
Not strong but by a faction.
If potentates reply,
Give potentates the lie.

Tell men of high condition
That manage the estate,
Their purpose is ambition,
Their practice only hate:
And if they make reply,
Then give them all the lie.

Tell them that brave it most,
They beg for more by spending,
Who, in their greatest cost,
Seek nothing but commending:
And if they make reply,
Then give them all the lie.

Tell zeal it wants devotion;
Tell love it is but lust;
Tell time it is but motion;
Tell flesh it is but dust:
And wish them not reply,
For thou must give the lie.

Tell age it daily wasteth;
Tell honor how it alters;
Tell beauty how she blasteth;
Tell favor how she falters:
And as they shall reply,
Give every one the lie.

Tell wit how much it wrangles
In tickle points of niceness;
Tell wisdom she entangles
Herself in over-wiseness:
And when they do reply,
Straight give them both the lie.

Tell physic of her boldness;
Tell skill it is pretension;
Tell charity of coldness;
Tell law it is contention:
And as they do reply,
So give them still the lie.

Tell fortune of her blindness;
Tell nature of decay;
Tell friendship of unkindness;
Tell justice of delay:
And if they will reply,
Then give them all the lie.

Tell arts they have no soundness,
But vary by esteeming;
Tell schools they want profoundness,
And stand too much on seeming:
If arts and school reply,
Give arts and school the lie.

Tell faith it fled the city;
Tell how the country erreth;
Tell manhood shakes off pity;
Tell virtue least preferreth:
And if they do reply,
Spare not to give the lie.

So when thou hast, as I
Commanded thee, done blabbing,--
Although to give the lie
Deserves no less than stabbing,--
Stab at thee, he that will,
No stab the soul can kill.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 23 May 03 - 07:36 AM

May I suggest that good writing is writing that fulfils its function?

So Finnegans Wake is good writing - it fulfils its function as a playful linguistic comic novel. John Le Carre's The Constant Gardener is good writing - it fulfils its function as a moral thriller, dragging the reader along by the heartstrings, wringing him out, keeping him reading, thrilling him, breaking his heart.

Good writing is exact, wether it's terse or prolix. It's deep: it gives a rich experience of the scene and the story. It's disciplined: the story has nothing unnecessary, but has everything necessary, and it is told in the right order. Its structure and exposition support each other: the scenes build in the best way to tell the story, and the way that the story is told - the descriptions, the dialogue, the characters themselves - support the scenes.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Sam L
Date: 23 May 03 - 09:03 AM

JTT, I don't know, doesn't it seem to level everything in a circularly utilitarian way? What IS the function of a playful linguistic comic novel? And the idea that nothing is unnecesary runs counter to my feeling that great artistic writing always has something extra, something uncalled for, something that remains opaque to any functional theory.

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 May 03 - 09:15 AM

Fred, GUEST JTT, if you re-read, was talking about GOOD writing. (S)He didn't use the word GREAT.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 May 03 - 10:16 AM

Aw Ted, I ain't ever been worried much about being in fashion! (not since about 1995, anyway) If I recall correctly, Ogden Nash made an entire career of "light verse." But for those of you who got a smile from my humble "light verse," thank you. :-)

I just started reading a book called "Laughing Stock," the autobiography of a now largely forgotten Southern writer named T.S Stribling. It is what I would consider great writing. It is better than just Good. He wrote three novels, won a Pulitzer Prize, and didn't write anymore novels after that. Anyway ---- his books are available from the University of Alabama Press, whose warehouse is in, of all places, Chicago.

And now I have a hankerin for some cherry pie and ice cream...

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 May 03 - 10:49 AM

Kim, I loved it and am also hankering after some pie, as long as it doesn't have to be square.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: What Constitutes Good Writing?
From: Kim C
Date: 23 May 03 - 11:41 AM

Thanks Kat.... I am supposed to take a dessert to a friend's house on Sunday, and now I'm thinking about making a square pie, just for fun.

Yes, I know, the mind boggles. ;-)