BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Chip2447
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 02:41 AM

I find it somewhat amusing that the judge in this case said that the Federal government couldnt intervene, and then the very next day was crying to the U.S. Supreme Court to overturn the Federal courts ruling that the monument had to go...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 08:02 AM

How anyone can believe in a religion that assigns god a gender escapes me.
It seems to me that most religious people are Loonies of a greater or lesser degree, these fine distinctions seem irrelevant.
They all believe that there particular set of unsubstantiated fictions is RIGHT and when push comes to shove will kill anyone that does not cooperate.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 08:16 AM

Christian? Me? ANON.GUEST is more ignorent than I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Deacon Blues
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 09:17 AM

The subject of the thread is Christian loonies, not anonymous guests. How about we all stay on topic?

The biggest problem I have with many Christians, loonies or not, is their misperception that the US is a Christian state, when it is in fact a secular state, and the fact that so many of them lie about going to church and being good Christians.

The media routinely banters about figures like the ones I saw on CNN I think it was, last night. "77% of Americans think the monument should not have been moved!" they declared. The media also routinely uses bad statistics (polling which uses self-reporting, and it is well known that people will self-report in ways to make them look good on questions like "do you regularly attend church". They lie, in another words. Gallup and other polls routinely report that about 40% of the US population are regular church goers. However, when surveys are taken of actual church attendance by counting the numbers of people with their asses in a pew, that figure falls to about 20%.

So what is the morality of a) believing the lies the right wing Christians tell; b) telling lies to make it appear as if one is religious when one is not?

My answer: most US Christians are a bunch of phonies, and like the rest of the Republican right, use their religion to club others into submitting to their repressive, regressive agenda that favors the wealthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 09:47 AM

The preamble to the constitution of the State of Alabama:

"We, the people of the State of Alabama, in order to establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution and form of government for the State of Alabama..."

Section 3 of the constitution of the State of Alabama:

"That no religion shall be established by law; that no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect, society, denomination, or mode of worship; that no one shall be compelled by law to attend any place of worship; nor to pay any tithes, taxes, or other rate for building or repairing any place of worship, or for maintaining any minister or ministry; that no religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under this state; and that the civil rights, privileges, and capacities of any citizen shall not be in any manner affected by his religious principles."

The impression that I have been getting is that Roy Moore is trying to prove a point, ergo, that 1) the State of Alabama does recognize the existence of God in their constitution, and 2) a public display of faith does not go against the state constitution unless it is placed there "by law." By the same token, placing a monument in a public place does not constitute making a law establishing a religion - since the State of Alabama is not Congress, and the monument is not a law.

Here's what I think. One, there are such bigger fish to fry and this really isn't worth people wasting worry over it. Two, I'm not sure I appreciate the use of religious faith to prove a constitutional point. Three, some of these people may very well be loonies, but they're standing up for something they believe in. Maybe you don't agree with it, and that's fine. But don't fault them for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 10:03 AM

(hi, bill)????
you'd stoop to say "hi" to a humorless prude? Wow! What IS this place coming to?

Didja hear the one about the prude who walks into the whorehouse and asks the Madame for ..... oh, never mind...

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Deacon Blues
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 10:04 AM

"But don't fault them for it."

I disagree. Manipulation, lying, misrepresentation of facts are all things these people deserve the fault and blame for--as do their tactics. Not the tactics of civil disobedience or legitimate (even if illegal) protest. But the political tactics of charlatans and carpetbaggers. They also deserve fault and blame for use of those tactics.

You have summarized the arguments being used by Moore succinctly Casual Observer. Where I disagree is with your interpretation that these people are operating with an open and sincere religious agenda, rather than a secretive and subversive political one. To create a judicial crisis at these levels has nothing to do with the religious beliefs of one judge, and is truly despicable. This manufactured "religious crisis" has everything to do with the political agenda of the Republican right, who routinely manipulate and exploit Southern prejudices to their own partisan political advantage, in a blatant attempt to undermine our secular democracy. And I most certainly fault them for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 11:20 AM

I'm shore all your American Nazis are very sincere in their hatred and bigotry doesn't make 'em nice people.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Deacon Blues
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 11:41 AM

I often flinch when I see people use the word Nazi in online conversations, but Pied Piper is right to invoke the term in this instance. This group of Southern extremists are the religious wing of the American Nazi political movement.

One of the parties to the federal lawsuit who sued to have the monument removed, is the Southern Poverty Law Center. At their website, they say this about Moore:

"Moore became known as "the Ten Commandments judge" in the 1990s after two highly publicized lawsuits contested his hanging a Ten Commandments plaque in his Etowah County courtroom. He also gained national attention for incendiary remarks he made in a recent legal opinion that declared homosexuals "inherently evil" and implied that the state has authority to confine and even execute gay people."

Do you suppose 77% of Americans support those beliefs?

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 11:54 AM

GUEST,pdq, I don't know what you're talking about. If I could PM you, I would ask you that way, but I can't, so. . . . Oh, hell, forget it! This thread has degenerated to the usual stupidities surrounding this subject. I've got more productive things to do. I'm gone.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,pdq
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 12:08 PM

Bye! Bye! Anyway, there are 50 other threads where you can ply your 24/7 Bush-bashing.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 12:13 PM

I'm not convinced Roy Moore is operating with a sincere religious agenda. I believe I stated that I'm not sure I appreciate the use of religious faith as a test to the Constitution. It is exploitative. But I also believe that some of those people are sincere, or at least think they are. Perhaps they do not realize they are being misled as to the true nature of the situation. I'm sure many of them believe it's about religion, when in fact it's about constitutionality. They may not realize that the windmills they're fighting are really just...windmills.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Deacon Blues
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 12:17 PM

I think a lot of these "religious controversies" could be short circuited if all levels of government purged the Christian ethos from government, once and for all. No more swearing to the Christian god in oaths, no more swearing not to lie on the bible in courts of law, no more invoking "one nation under god" crap. Just cleanse the entire system of all remaining vestiges of Christian domination of this country.

On that point I agree with Moore. We have only begun to purge the Christian rule from our secular state. Let us hurry and finish the job, and end the hypocrisy once and for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 12:41 PM

Well, yes, but there are numerous other gods out there to worry about: the dollar, military supremacy, youthful good looks, material goods, fame, etc...which are probably influencing everyday decision-making far more than the classic "God" of the Christian religion could ever hope to...

So, what are you gonna do about that?

Whatever things people place the most faith in...those ARE their gods. And for a majority of people today that which they place the most faith in is money. The old movie "The Magic Christian" demonstrated that in a humourous fashion.

The reason it says "In God We Trust" on American money is not because people actually trust in God, but because money IS the dominant god of this culture and of their hopes and dreams. Therefore the statement as printed on the coin is completely appropriate...and utterly tragic at the same time. To remove it would devalue not the deity of traditional religion but the coin or the bill itself.

To prove my point: Build a traditional religious shrine (to anything at all) somewhere and a paltry number of pilgrims and tourists will visit it. Build a casino, and fifteen thousand or more crazed worshippers will pour into it daily in search of that in which they place their ultimate faith.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Deacon Blues
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 12:46 PM

I forgot to mention, in regards to the sincerety of the protestors, that the state of Alabama has the worst education system in the US. It comes in at 50. As its Southern neighbors have grown and prospered, Alabama has lagged behind, especially in educational achievement. Education there is chronically underfunded, due to it's feudal tax laws. In 1990, The Birmingham News, the state's largest newspaper, wrote an excellent series of editorials advocating tax reform. The series won the Pulitzer Prize but failed to sway the Legislature.

The state's tax code is firmly rooted in the 19th century, when the canon of white supremacy governed politics and agrarian interests controlled the economy. Determined to protect the interests of wealthy property owners, Alabama lawmakers -- many of whom were wealthy property owners -- enshrined much of the tax code in the state constitution, written in 1901. As a result, taxes are not only among the lowest in the nation, but the tax code is also among the least progressive, hoisting a staggering load onto the backs of the poor while sparing the wealthy much of a burden.

Enter the scene, one Susan Pace Hamill, a University of Alabama tax law professor. While studying theology during a sabbatical, she wrote an essay criticizing the Alabama tax code, which imposes an effective tax rate of 12 percent on the poorest and 3 percent on the wealthiest taxpayers, as lacking Christian charity. Alabama Gov. Bob Riley, a conservative Republican and evangelical Christian who has long opposed tax hikes, agreed with Ms Pace Hamill, and got a tax reform referendum on the ballot for Sept 9th, to raise his state's total taxes by more than a billion dollars, by raising taxes on the wealthy while also lowering taxes for the poor.

The United Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the Alabama Southern Baptist Convention, among others, have joined with Riley and support his tax reform proposal. But since the culture of Southern right wingers and Christian conservatives believe that ANY tax increases are sinful, there is a backlash campaign against the proposal from the Republican and Christian right, both in Alabama and nationally. Even though the national Christian Coalition president Roberta Combs has praised Riley's tax reform plan, the Christian Coalition of Alabama opposes it. Several national conservative groups, including Americans for Tax Reform, have pledged to work against the proposal.

Considering that context and background to the 10 commandments controversy, is it any wonder that these poorly educated evangelists believe that the 10 commandments are the foundation upon which the American judicial system was built?

Let us not confuse exploitation and manipulation of the poorly educated, brainwashed Southern evangelical cult by the rich and poltically powerful, with sincere belief in "the cause of Christian martydom". These people have been brainwashed into believing themselves to be victims. That is the way they are most useful to right wing Republicans, who need to keep them stupid and gullible, so they'll vote the way they want them to. You can bet they don't want better educated Alabamans, any more than they want to see tax reforms.



bais leading a revolutionary campaign to raise his state's total taxes by more than a billion dollars while also lowering taxes for the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 12:58 PM

OH! So that's what's bugging GUEST,pdq. What does "Bush bashing" have to do with this thread? Unless, of course. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 01:07 PM

There are always two sides to every coin.

A time or two, before, in this forum, I have mentioned that I am an atheist married to a Jehovah's Witness. We all have our heartfelt and well-thought-out points of view---we think. I know that when the stands conflict it will cause anguish for all. These are not loonies. They are folks like us who have strong feelings on many topics that divide people in this much too in-your-face society these days. Good people, it just isn't black and white. And some things, when nobody is being killed over it, are simply not worth fighting over. This, to my way of looking at it, is one of those times. Please----set a better example for our president here in the USA.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Deacon Blues
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 01:37 PM

It is impossible to gain any meaningful understanding of complex, multi-faceted issues and events, by simplistically reducing them to cliches about there being "two sides".

I will say it again. Many of the parties involved in this manufactured, sensationalized "controversy" are neither sincere, nor well intentioned. This situation has nothing to do with anyone's personal religious beliefs, and everything to do with the secretive and manipulative political agenda of the radical right in the US. The demonstrators are carpetbagging "ministers" and their gullible, poorly educated Southern evangelical cult followers. The "10 Commandments Judge" is himself a cynical and manipulative politician, in this for his own personal and political gain. The Republican leaning media outlets are playing this story to the hilt, to keep feeding the right wing's political and religious dupes and fools, or to create the illusion of legitimacy, and to bestow that legitimacy upon the agenda of the Republican right. That agenda includes imposition of Christianity on the secular US state through the judiciary, in order to sidestep the Constitution's ban on doing it through the legislative branch. That agenda is actually treasonous, but no one will call it that. Rather, they focus on the smokescreen of the Ann Coulter's, who demonize their political opponents as "enemies and traitors" as a tactic of distraction.

I also disagree with Little Hawk's contention that cleansing all levels of government in the US of it's Christian ethos, would be a waste of time and resources. It would do more to dispossess the political right of their success in imposing their devious and treasonous agenda, than any other strategy could do in a hundred years of partisan fighting over control of the government, the economy, and the resources of the country. These people need to be exposed for the frauds that they are, which is impossible as long as the politicians keep appeasing the Christian right with a wink and a nod, and the Christian ethos so prominently displayed in the nation's everyday mythology and symbolism.

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Amergin
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 01:48 PM

Little Hawk forgot to emntion one other god to worry about....william shatner.....

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 04:18 PM

Try a few of these enlightened organizations, to get a grip on who these folks are:

http://www.dixienet.org/

http://www.ccbama.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 04:33 PM

Yes, Shatner-worship is a pervasive and highly disturbing problem, all right. Fortunately, only harmless idiots generally fall prey to it... :-)

Well, Deacon Blues, I would be as happy as you to see the political right in the USA robbed of their success in using primitive Christianity to manipulate public opinion. I would be happy to see politicians of any stripe thwarted in using religion in that fashion.

And I believe in God...but I don't belong to any given religion. To put it another way: the caveman-mentality "god" that religious fundamentalists seem to imagine (a combination of Santa Claus and the "Hanging Judge") is not what I imagine when I think of God. Not even close. I imagine an energy and intelligence that informs and imparts and loves and is inseparably joined with all that exists, right down to the atomic level.

Fundamentalists would envision me as some sort of dangerous heretic...as would most practical politicians, I suppose, given the fact that I am about equally suspicious of the hidden motives of both camps...their primary motive being greed for power and control over others.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Christian Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 04:38 PM

Geez, Art Thieme's simplistic, BillD is a prude, Don Firth doesn't know how to pick his friends...what's gyrl to do?!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Amos
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 04:49 PM

Oh, LH, you're just projecting again!!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 05:01 PM

Think so? Maybe I should seek a career in the film industry! :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 05:29 PM

Sure, if you eradicated Christian ethos, it would only be replaced by something else. But let's not obscure the issue by confusing Christianity with religion. They are not necessarily the same thing.

Art Thieme, I think your comments are very well-put.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Amos
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 06:10 PM

Wisely said, ole Art.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 06:47 PM

Well, posibly I misspoke. Alas, the "two sides of the coin" phrase may be a bit of a cliche. I should've used the other more inclusive cliche which says, "There are 360 degrees on every circle" Maybe even 90,000,000,000,000 stars in the Milky Way----And for each of those stars there is a strongly held opinion on which people will march, protest, scream and even strap bombs on themselves and end their one-and-only LIFE. From my point on the big cirrcle, it seems that this is the only life they are going to have----no matter what mumbo-jumbo their wishful thinking (hope ?)) thought patterns have led them into.

I just hope that their conclusions are a comfort when their human frames are blown apart in a blinding flash.

People, none of it means a damn thing in the long run. Sit down and relax. Turn off your computer and read a good book.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 07:27 PM

Funny Art, I took your advice, unfortunatley the nearest book to hand was If this goes on

The Reverend Nemiah Scudder for President, anyone ??????

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 07:33 PM

Well, this is the only life they're ever going to have that's exactly like this one, anyway, so why waste it bickering over religion? I agree. It's not worth fighting over.

Any number of good books out there, after all, as Art suggested.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 08:52 PM

Are we discussing wounded male egos here, or the thread topic?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: LadyJean
Date: 28 Aug 03 - 10:48 PM

Niccolo Macciavelli advised any prospective princes to push Christianity for the peasants, but avoid it themselves. Whenever a politician waxes religious, I catch a whiff of Macciavelli. I'd have to know more about the judge's record, on and off the bench, before I called him a Christian. Does he temper his justice with Christian mercy? Is he a friend to the poor? Does he try to love his neighbor even when his neighbor is a scum sucking slimeball. (That's the really hard one!)
It has occurred to me that if taking the Lord's name in vain were illegal, you'd have to arrest most of us. Perhaps they could make it illegal in Alabama, and raise some revenue for the state, by fining everyone who says Oh My God!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 06:40 AM

Yeah, but then you have to define exactly what "in vain" means. I think we had a thread on that some time ago...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 08:33 AM

The Ten Commandments are Jewish to start with anyway, and Muslim as well (restated in the Quran). If sticking them up on a monument counts as "establishing a religion", that must be a pretty wideranging kind of religion.

Now worshiping a document written by a bunch of blokes 200 years ago as Holy Writ, that does seem a bit like establishing a state religion...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 09:55 AM

The trick is not to Worship the 1st Amendment, just to believe in the separation of church and state as a good thing for the people thereof. Then what was written a couple of centuries ago makes a lot of sense - let people reach their own consensus without resorting to the supernatural, or to royalty, or to anyone else's so-called right to tell you what to think.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:29 AM

But what church is supposed to be involved here? The joint Catholic-Protestant-Jewish-Muslim-Mormon Confabulation?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:46 AM

Yes - the Church of the God of Abraham. Covers all Christian, Jewish and Moslem believers. Excludes any non-monotheist, whether theistic or atheistic.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Deacon Blues
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 10:54 AM

McGrath, here in the states we have this phenomenon known as evangelical Christians. They may be from a number Protestant sects, but those who are usually working the extreme right wing political agenda are also referred to as fundamentalist Christians. The Protestant sect that group of so-called Christians are usually affiliated with is Southern Baptist. Because of the history of the US apartheid system, there are black Southern Baptists sects, and white Southern Baptists sects. Is that confusing enough for you?

There is no true equivalent to the Southern Baptist Protestant sect anywhere else in the world, that I am aware of. It is uniquely American. Their religious roots are mostly Calvinist from what I can tell, but I don't know much about the history of the Southern Baptist religion. Maybe someone else can comment upon it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Deacon Blues
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:05 AM

BTW, I was going to mention that the link provided above to Dixie Net is to a site run by the League of the South, a hate group with branches across the Deep South. You can read about the hate groups by clicking on this link to a US map at the Southern Poverty Law Center here:

http://www.tolerance.org/maps/hate/index.html

It is an excellent website.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:11 AM

if you read carefully what Roy Moore says, it will be clear that he is doing a convoluted part rhetorical, part legal, part religious spin to support his position.

"We must acknowledge God in the public sector because the state constitution explicitly requires us to do so. The Alabama Constitution specifically invokes "the favor and guidance of Almighty God" as the basis for our laws and justice system. As the chief justice of the state's supreme court I am entrusted with the sacred duty to uphold the state's constitution. I have taken an oath before God and man to do such, and I will not waver from that commitment."

" No judge has the authority to impose his will on the people of a state, and no judge has the constitutional authority to forbid public officials from acknowledging the same God specifically mentioned in the charter documents of our nation, the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution. "

He is claiming that that the constitution requires him/us to "acknowlege" God..etc..etc..and that stopping him breaks the law!

One presumes that if he found himself in a country whose constitution had said merely "you all be nice to each other, hear?" that his postion would be otherwise...hmmm?

Is "right" dependant on who gets there first and gets their choice of words put into a document? And if so, can a 'majority' change those words later and amend "right"?

Look back at that word "acknowlege" which Judge Moore uses constantly! It is a key to the whole issue. If I don't believe in a god, how can I "acknowlege" one? "Acknowleging" presumes that one accepts the existence and authority of what one is "acknowleging". The whole POINT of separation of church & state is that different people "acknowlege" different dieties or manifestions of dieties (or none at all) and that the only fair way to operate is to allow all, but officially support no specific one!

Naturally, this does not set well with those who have a serious emotional committment to ONE version of truth!...And they flatly do not care what arguments or pressure or twists of logic it takes to get their set of rules in place.

Once more..

"Freedom OF religion must imply freedom FROM religion for those who disagree"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:18 AM

Here you go McGrath--this page gives a quick overview of the controversies surrounding Southern Baptist religion and religious history. Don't worry if you are still confused after reading it, as most Southern Baptists are just as, if not more, confused about their denomination as the rest of us are.

http://www.yellowstone.net/baptist/history.htm#Views%20of%20Baptist%20Origins

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:21 AM

This discussion/controversy is a perfect example of the issue being lost in the maelstrom. I would ask the his honor one question. What would his response be if I decided that I was going to disobey all of his rulings that I had a moral issue with? Respect for the rule of law is what makes for a stable society. This is another example of the right wing demanding the good old days, except where it doesn't agree with their view of what the good old days really were.

The supposed "Judeo-Christian" values that our system of laws are built on are really universal principles of right and wrong that are found in many philosophies, value systems, and religions.

I am sure that these protestors are sincere, and probably nice folks. What the hell does all that have to do with the issue.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:25 AM

BillD, you have to understand that Moore's position isn't about god per se. It is about this particular religious sect's extremely narrow, recently invented interpretation of how to approach the scriptures (see the above link), and by extension (because of the reference to god in the constitution), to the constitution as their religion's legal code.

These lunatics are a rapidly shrinking sect of Southern Baptists, who through their religious right jihad of the past 25 years, not only hijacked the largest religion in the US south and west, but the political establishment in those regions as well.

Most lunatics are harmless. The leaders of this right wing jihad are the living definition of dangerous lunatics.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,Casual Observer
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:34 AM

Someone please quote for me that part of the Constitution where the phrase "separation of church and state" is actually used.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:41 AM

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.



Note that this is the tip of an iceberg as far as church-state legal discussion is concerned.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 11:42 AM

Bill: Moore is in a deep pickle. I believe he believes he is ethically and morally obligated to accept that what is called revealed law illuminates civil law. This is a very deep philosophical, bedrock part of legal theory. I don't believe him to be a bubba, nor Machiavellian.

Fundamentally, law is the search for justice. The laying out of a Constitution is only one step in the machinery for seeking out and implementing justice. Theorists speak of natural law, i.e. an ethical truth of the matter that could be sought out with a perfect legal mechanism. It contemplates a truth that is outside the human mind. Most people reject the concept, and (rather cynically) replace it only with human whims, desires, self-interest and folly as explaining the legal system.

Moore believes in revealed law, as I said, and he supports his position that it has valid (indeed mandatory) application, by reference to ancient English law, which has been expressly adopted by many US state constitutions, including Alabama's. He further backs it up with citations to classic theorists, such as Blackstone.

You may have noticed that I have been delaying the description of revealed law. Yes, that is because I did not want to get too many of you all riled up at the outset. Revealed law refers to the illumination of natural law by, as McGraw terms it, Holy Writ. That is, by divine revelation. Yes, by Scripture.

Now, if some of you have not stroked out yet, let me continue by saying yes, he takes it over the top. He uses his personal predilections when interpreting scripture, as so many are wont to do. He can, as is the nature of law, support what he wants to accomplish by the way he shines his flashlight on the source, in this instance scripture. That's what lawyers do. So it can offend the hell out of anyone who doesn't want that source referenced. But his right to do so is, indeed, supported by authoritative writings in England and America.

"Separation of Church and State," as many point out, is an ambiguous and incorrect statement of the constitutional proscription against the state sponsored establishment of religion. Question whether a belief in revealed law by a judge is State sponsored establishment of religion. You can argue it both ways. But the essence of the argument reaches fundamental principals. No one is going to scream their way into winning that argument.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:15 PM

GUEST, heric said: Question whether a belief in revealed law by a judge is State sponsored establishment of religion.

Judge Moore's belief in revealed law is NOT "State-sponsored establishment of religion", plainly. He may believe as he likes.

BUT his use of his State-originated powers makes his actions relative to the monument State-sponsored action. Then we have the argument as to whether that action is tantamount to establishment of religion or a religion. I happen to believe that it does.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:29 PM

Acting as a State representative in his role as Chief Justice of Alabama, he caused the construction of a religous code inscribed in stone to be placed in a state government public building. That pretty well covers the question as far as I can see.

A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:39 PM

Yes that's pretty simple. But I thought the question also encompassed whether he is a charlatan (and whether all fundamentalists are ignorant and detestable, which I won't address.)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:40 PM

heric..." But the essence of the argument reaches fundamental principals. "

I believe this is essentially what I said, with elaboration and speculation added.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Christian' Loonies Lose It in Montgomery
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 29 Aug 03 - 12:49 PM

Yes, Bill. I believe the same. (I can't tell whether you think that's a bad thing, though.)