BS: Giving up religion for Lent...

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: Amos
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 11:13 AM

This forum is designed by its owner, who chose not to define it as to subject or constrain it except with regard to personal attacks and battle-mode posts.

ANyone is entitled to start a thread here about Christianity, be it "Thoughts on the World and the Devil" or "Jesus Wants You for a Sunbeam".

Because it is an open forum, such threads may elicit vehemently antagonistic beliefs in response.

Conversely, anyone is entitled to start a thread entitled "Why I am Not a Christian", although no-one has, quite, and the counter-flak they inherit will probably be a reflection of the care they put in to the post.

There is no separation of church and state decreed here, as far as I know, except by the consensus of those who visit -- particularly its members.

The things that routinely elicit hostility, in my experience, are condescension, supsercilious assertions of knowledge not earned and not accurate, and arm-waving hyperbole whether pro or con.

Here's what works: tolerance, curiousity, consideration of others' feelings, a personal sense of integrity (holding true to that which you know) balanced with courtesy, and a love and interest for music, and a desire to see others do well.

Notice that many of those are actually Christian virtues.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: GUEST, Experienced Former Target
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 11:45 AM

Some of y'all need to study up on Mudcat history. Before there was a BS section, there were regular flamewars on issues of religion. Some of it was genuine lack of tolerance and understanding, but some of it was intentional trolling using religion as the excuse for the attacks and defenses. In the end, a number of the trolls admitted their sole purpose had been to create uproar, no matter the subject-- with religion being a hot-button, it was an easy way to get people's knickers in a twist. (At least one of those self-admitted trolls is now a "respected" member of Mudcat, with many friends here.)

There also have been campaigns by email and PMs, where people have recruited people to join in on an attack or defense. In one case this involved a "victim" who was going through quite a lot of medical and psychological difficulties, and the idea seemed to be that he should be driven off the forum. Some of those suggesting the attack or distributing the email about it were regular, generally-respected members. They made the mistake of sending some of this to people who found it outrageous, which is how some folks learned about it.

For a time there also was a regularly-posting anti-wiccan, anti-pagan, VERY rightwing "Christian."

In all of this, a lot of people got hurt-- on both sides.

Some of you who have been posting were here in those years, and many of you were not. It was thought that the BS section would help ease that tension and many other tensions, but religion and anti-religion are still hot-buttons. If you were NOT here before there was a BS section, it's hard to get a realistic idea how messy it got back then!

It remains true that the best way to avoid messes here over religion is to ignore trolling efforts-- posts that are clearly meant to fuel upset. When a thread goes beyond reasoned discussion and responsible posting of opinions, and becomes an anonymous name-calling effort to foment additional uproar, it's time to let it die a natural death. It's the only thing that has ever worked.

These days there is a large contingent of Catters, of all creeds, who have a firm policy of never, ever discussing religion here. It just has not been workable. There is another contingent of Catters, of all creeds, who will say their piece and then see what others say, but who stop discussing when they feel they've said as much as they reasonably can. Some of those threads have been really interesting, even though when they have started being real frank, people have understandably felt pushed at.

Right now, we have all the makings for another Great Mudcat Religion Flamewar. All it takes to end it is to stop feeding the trolls, take the reasonable discussions to the Chat Room or email, and get back to the music. It always looks different in hindsight, you know?

Experienced Former Target

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: GUEST,guest1
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:22 PM

Jerry, no one I think is attacking Christians. All I've ever said is "leave me alone".Be a Christian by all means but all I ask is that Christians keep it out of our lives and in their own. Is that too much to ask?
Political Christianity is now affecting the world in many ways and many of us are horrified that America now seems to wrap itself not only in its flag but in its cross, thus making all those who are crossless into a potential enemy who must be converted/controlled/legislated against/invaded/destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 12:38 PM

Thanks, Guest1 (and thanks for identifying yourself. You are 100% right. I understand why there is so much antagonism toward that segment of Christians in the United States who are trying to use the cross as a swrod to strike down non-Christians. It makes me angry, too. And puts me in a difficult situation. These days, so much of Christianity doesn't seem to have anything to do with Christ.

I was reading a book today and especially appreciated a comment that Christianity is not a religion. It is trying to live the way Christ calls us to live. All the rest is man-made strutures. And it has all the faults and weaknesses of anything man made.

Maybe I just need to stay out of these "discussions." I know what I, and many others believe and how they are trying to live a life that puts others ahead of ourselves. We are caught in the crossfire... criticized by those who are trying to cram their religion down the throats of everyone who doesn't believe (and gun barrels work real well) and those who lump us with them.

Sometimes you can't win for losing...

As for the criticism leveled at me by another Guest that people have a right to discuss religion in here "jokingly, sarcastically or anything else," I agree. As I said in an earlier post:

"The funny thing is, I don't really have a problem with people starting threads attacking the hypocrisy in some/many (but definitely not all churches.) If you've been hurt, go right ahead and express your anger. You have every right to do so."

And I mean that. But why do you feel that others can't respond to, or disagree with what you said? I thought this was supposedly a site for free speach.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 01:12 PM

As the originator, I ask how asking people what they are giving up for Lent is anti-religious.
"I find it amazingly hypocritical for people who start anti-religious threads to complain when someone speaks up for what they believe" - said someone - but I wasn't complaining, I was actually complimenting the thread creepers!

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 01:27 PM

I apologize, Mrr... I don't think that this thread is anti-religious at all. I think that it was meant to be humorous. There are certainly threads that are anti-religious. And threads that are "trying to cram Christianity down people's throats." I regret them all. I have sincerely tried not to judge others or force my beliefs on anyone in here. First of all, it would be stupid, because you can't force beliefs, likes, dislikes, or anything else. The only cramming that ever works is cramming for tests (and even that has it's limitations.)

Let me state clearly what I feel, and then I will leave this thread to others. I believe that everyone has a right to express what they believe or feel, whether it's said in a measured way, or is even an outright attack. I don't believe in repressing feelings (although I do make an attempt to maintain some level of control over my own.) I think people have a right to attack whatever role Christianity is playing in repressing others in this country or overseas. I believe people have a right to be angry. Because I am a Christian, they even have a right to express their anger at me, whether I feel I am personally guilty as charged or not. I believe that every person on Mudcat, no matter how off the wall they may get at times, has value. Unless proven otherwise, I believe even the angriest person in here still want peace. I love people as people, not applying labels to them, as best I can.

I like the BS section. I like it's honesty, even when I am sometimes hurt by what is said. That's part of the price of allowing honesty.
I've complained in the past about how nasty Mudcat can get, but I am no longer going to complain about that. In the long run, the only thing I have any control over is myself. I cannot tell anyone else what they should do with their lives. I don't know how much others have been hurt, or the reason why they are as angry as they are. I still believe that people are good at heart. All people.

I think I'll give these discussions a breather. And wish everyone well.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 01:41 PM

There are no sacred cows here, IMO. Religion is too often put forward (like 9/11 and other things currently functioning as such in our society) as a sacred cow. It isn't.

Also, people shouldn't assume that making fun of religion is something only done by people who have been hurt by religion. That is much too narrow a view, IMO. I know a lot of people who were raised with no religion in their lives whatsoever, who regularly tell very funny and/or mildly amusing and/or not funny at all religious jokes just like they would a joke about law and lawyers, politics and politicians, etc. Or sexist jokes, or ethnic jokes, or racial jokes, or blonde jokes, or sick jokes...

As to this thread, it really concerns people who practice the religion that suggests/requires you give up something for Lent. That wouldn't be all Christians either, would it?

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 01:48 PM

You're right, Guest..

I don't give up anything for lent... although maybe I should give up discussing religion in here :-)

And you are also right. I find it is sometimes condescending to dismiss everyone who criticizes religion as having been hurt by religion. I don't think that's the case at all, although certainly many have been..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: skipy
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 07:16 PM

I'm going to stop lending things for lent, unless people really need to borrow them! Then I will!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: EagleWing
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:11 AM

"This is, after all, a secular forum isn't it?"

It is an open forum. If someone starts a thread about religion, people who have some religion are entitled to air their views just like anyone else. The thread is about religion but so "GUEST" wants to silence anyone who puts forward any sort of religious views. It isn't the religious people on this thread who are making unbalanced arguments (read it sometime, GUEST) but people like GUEST who hide behind anonymity to stir up strife between sections of this community.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:13 AM

I am giving up nothing for lent because lent is not part of my religion.
I must admit to enjoying threads where people try to explain their religious beliefs but I find it offensive when some christians hijack the word religious to mean only their particular beliefs. Mine are just as valid and just as religious.

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:25 AM

Some Christians have such a distorted view of their own worth, they feel the need to jump down anyones throat if they dare disagree.
That is their biggest fault in my eyes. They would earn more respect by dutifully living their life as they see fit, without criticising/insulting people of opposing views.
I do not jump out at folks in the street and try and wave a copy of the Sears catalogue under their noses, so why do they do it with the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 08:59 AM

LOL! I should try that with the Sears catalogue! What a riot! Yes, I'm the Sears-catalog thumping type... hee hee hee!

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: EagleWing
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 10:14 AM

"I must admit to enjoying threads where people try to explain their religious beliefs but I find it offensive when some christians hijack the word religious to mean only their particular beliefs. Mine are just as valid and just as religious."

I agree - except that in this thread, the subject is about a Christian season so it actually does refer to Christianity. Generally speaking, most unfriendly references to religion on this forum do tend to be aimed at Christianity unless they are started by Christians who wish to attack non-christians. Thankfully these are few and far between.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: EagleWing
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 10:21 AM

"I do not jump out at folks in the street and try and wave a copy of the Sears catalogue under their noses, so why do they do it with the bible."

Not sure where GUEST comes from but in the UK, people who "jump out at folks" and wave the Bible under peoples' noses tend to get arrested. Likewise, I imagine, Sears catalogues. On the other hand, people with clipboards purporting to do market research but actually involved in advertising campaigns approach me far more often than street preachers so, although GUEST does not indulge in such campaigns, I think his point is less valid than it appears.

Frank L

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:01 AM

You think my point less valid. You are right . I am wrong. I will roast in flames. You will bounce on clouds. Wouldn't it be funny if all the critical christians met with a critical god.

" You're not coming in wearing those shoes."

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: EagleWing
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:13 AM

'You think my point less valid. You are right . I am wrong. I will roast in flames. You will bounce on clouds. Wouldn't it be funny if all the critical christians met with a critical god.
"You're not coming in wearing those shoes."'

You seem overly defensive. It would seem you have a great problem with anyone who sees things differently from yourself. You made a point. I made a point. Why does my point seem so offensive to you, GUEST?

Bounce on clouds? Hmm! Seems like the sort of thing that you could get boored with fairly quickly. I'd rather get my harp and try and join a session somewhere in a folky corner of the Land Up Yonder. (Unless Sam Smith's gets there first and bans live music).

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:24 AM

Actually without christians telling us what we actually mean and think, the world would be full of hopeless cases like me. Carry on the stirling work. What am I having for breakfast? Are you sure I really want that?

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:40 AM

those of us who are secularists (14 Feb 05 - 10:55 AM )

Who is 'us'? Speak only for you, 14 Feb 05 - 10:55 AM, that's enough. I'm a secularists too, but your deliberately offensive way of arguing has no support at all from me, even if we might agree on details.

Very rarely I see here, and only by very few posters, anything remotely similar to forcing their Christian thinking on others. I actually like to read about the background of people, where they come from, what their basic convictions are. To name just three of the more prominent ones here, neither Joe, nor Jerry, nor Bobert have ever bothered me in any way when mentioning their faith (in this and any other thread). On the contrary, my knowledge of them would be less complete if I didn't know about the background. I not only don't mind them mentioning their beliefs I positively appreciate the way they do it.

There are some specific ways of bringing the Christian faith into play I do not like and have said so in the past, but that are exeptions in my eyes. The majority of the religiousn posters, Christians or not, exercise a welcome restraint and the majority of secularists do so too. If everybody was always silent about his or her faith Mudcat would be poorer than it is.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:45 AM

Thanks, Wolfgang. I've always enjoyed you, too...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:13 PM

Love fest alert.

Subject: RE: BS: Giving up religion for Lent...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 01:14 PM

So, to get back to the subject of this thread then, what is everyone who gives things up for Lent giving up for Lent?