any info on the Critics Group?

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:18 PM

Good grief, I'm not Mary Humphreys! Got it well wrong there, Erastus. But if I had a fraction of her musical ability and talent for seeking out interesting material I'd begin to consider myself a singer.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

Quite interesting - I have had reservations about MacColl particularly his alleged prescriptiveness, but this thread makes me like him a lot more!

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:50 PM

Fascinating personality, this Erastus. Mixes up people he/she purports to know well, and all he/she seems to be aiming at is venting some spleen scattergun fashion, just to vent it. Either an interesting case for some cranium-squeezer or your average troll. Not even very erudite or inventive. Boring.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:51 PM

Even arseholes change the world, after all Mussolini made the trains run on time!
G

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Nerd at work
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:56 PM

Ha! All that on the basis of thinking Diane was Mary Humphries? She ain't!

(I guess Iota/Terry knows who Jim is alright...)

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 02:58 PM

Arses and elbows come to mind

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: John Routledge
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

Thanks Guest Fred McCormick. Your 5.00 am post is a wonderful summary which encapsulates the debate. No wonder it is still running.!!

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:35 PM

Just a brief word of explanation for any bystanders who might be puzzled at the direction this thread is taking.
Earlier this year I was involved on this forum in a somewhat acrimonious debate about a number of vicious reviews which appeared in an internet magazine, one of which included insulting elderly traditional singers. This debate degenerated into several extremely nasty personal threads one of which included postings signed with my wife's name. She had nothing whatever to do with the debate, but that made no difference to these heroes (I see by the above posting that she is still included her in his invective). It also sank to the level of a threat of physical violence on the Irtrad forum
Because of the somewhat unpleasant personal nature that some of the postings have been taking on this present thread, also because of the tendency of the contributor to cite fictional events as fact (an ongoing trait), I suspected that (as the song says) The Mice Are At it Again and one or other of this pair had decided to renew the nastiness. I was more or less convinced of this last night when I saw that one of their threads had been re-opened and the nastiness continued (see Folk Song Collector For Sale). This time, one of their targets includes a dear friend whose work on collecting has made him arguably the most important contributor to folk song in these islands. The fact that he is at present in pretty poor health makes him a nice soft target I suppose.
I have neither the stomach nor the time to become involved in this garbage, so I have no intention of rising to the bait. Anybody who wishes further enlightenment may do so by looking up these threads and deciding for themselves: 'Dog And Gun, Origins of Golden Glove', 'Folk Song Collector For Sale', 'Hunky Collector Required', and 'West Clare Collector Kidnapped By Taliban', -­ all good adult stuff as you may gather. The argument was continued on the letter page of Musical Traditions, but was closed by the editor.
I have no desire to turn what has been for me a couple of extremely positive, enjoyable and informative threads on the work of MacColl and the Critics Group into a slanging match, but, should anybody wish to continue to discuss these subjects I am more than happy to do so; I will also be glad to pass on any information I have on these topics.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:41 PM

Good man yourself Jim.
Giok

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: John Routledge
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 05:47 PM

For the avoidance of doubt I do not support "debate" of the type cited by Jim Carrol.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Fred Mccormick
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:48 AM

Jim,

I wasn't aware that the Folk Song Collector For Sale thread had been reopened and it might have helped if you had explained the reason for your provocative and tasteless remarks. The postings to which you refer were not placed by me and they were not placed by Geoff Wallis.

I am also puzzled by the fact that you previously had a dig at me about two weeks ago; well before Folk Song Collector For Sale was de-interred.

The business you refer to is ancient history. I suggest that you keep it that way.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

Fred mentioned to me that this thread was going on and that he thought a comment or two was directed towards me.

For the record, I was too young when Ewan and Peggy set up the Critics Group and, at the time, was far too busy immersing my young ears in whatever Brian Matthew's 'Saturday Club' threw up or whoever I could catch on AFM of Luxembourg and most of my interests were directed towards r 'n 'b and the blues (and remain so)

In other words, though I respect what they achieved, I've never had any interest in the works of MacColl and Seeger and indeed have never heard any of their recordings. Their work passed me by and I regret that, as I'm probably more ignorant as a result. I've also only rarely been involved in the English folk scene - again, I might have missed a trick or two.

Whatever's going on regarding this thread 'It Ain't Me, Babe' (and I was never into Dylan either) - just give me a fiddle and a set of uilleann pipes and lead me onwards to bliss.

Geoff

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: red max
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:12 AM

So, did someone mention the Critics Group?

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:26 AM

Here here,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,DaveS at Work
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:14 PM

I would like to thank everyone for the response to my query re "Waterloo - Peterloo" much appreciated. Regarding the names mentioned either as members of the Critics Group or those with close connections, over the years I have booked about nine of these into the clubs that I have been involved with at the time and there was never any cause for complaint; quite the reverse most of the time.
Pity that this thread deteriorated the way that it did; one bad apple......

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:43 PM

Jim,

Your eloquence continues to astound! For the record I think you meant to write 'hear, hear'. As for your actual point, that's probably best lost in the mysteries of time.

However, why don't you actually log into the Mudcat site and reduce the number of guest postings?

Geoff

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:33 PM

I must apologise to everybody for bringing my own personal baggage to this forum; I thought it better to try and get it out of the way rather than let it fester into another slanging match.John Routledge is right, what went on wasn't a debate – though it took nearly four years for it to degenerate to the stage that it did on those threads.
I hope I'm not being presumptuous, but I thought I might give some idea of how the Critics Group came about and the type of work it did.
Around 1963 MacColl was asked by a number of singers on the scene (Bobby Campbell, Gordon McCulloch, Enoch Kent, Luke Kelly, Helen Campbell, Alasdair Clayre etc) would he give singing lessons. He refused, but he said he would organise a self-help group and work with them (at that time, three or four days a week).
The first thing he did was to play recordings of traditional singers and got the group to imitate them, not so they could sing like them, but to find out how the various aspects of the voice were produced. He presented a series of exercises; relaxation, tone, effort (adapted from Laban's movement theories), and different styles of singing; (opera, music hall, mouth music, Gilbert and Sullivan) in order that the singers get their voices as flexible as possible and to improve the singers grasp over his or her own voice. The idea behind this was to enable the singers to tackle all the differing types of song in the repertoire (shanties, big ballads, lyrical pieces, comic songs, fast, slow, ornamented, plain etc), should they wish to. At the beginning these exercises were concentrated on, but after a while singers would be expected to practice them in their own time – the longer you worked at them, the easier they got.   Many of the exercises he introduced had been developed during his time in Theatre Workshop.
The main work on actual singing was the group criticism (hence the name of the group). A singer was asked to present a programme of four, five, six maybe varying types of songs for criticism, sing them, and the group would discuss the performance and make suggestions of how they might be improved. In many ways this latter work was the most difficult; to get up before a group of people and sing knowing that they were going to tell you what they thought of it at the end of the performance.   None of these suggestions were writ in stone, they were just that – suggestions. The singer was not committed to taking up the suggestions that were made, though, after a while they were expected to show some progress in their ability. Occasionally MacColl would give private tuition to those needing help.
All this work was voluntary; I don't remember seeing any bars on the windows. Singers could pack up and go whenever they pleased; some did. I believed that those who stayed and did the work became better singers
The bulk of this work I have described was aimed at improving singing technique, but this was only a tiny part of the work that was done. From the beginning, MacColl argued that that main aim of any singer should be to understand the songs, to enjoy them and to communicate that understanding and enjoyment to the listener. There was a great deal of work developed on this side of singing - but this is taking far too long as it is.
I have heard it argued that working on singing in this way can destroy the enjoyment of the song. When Pat and I interviewed him we covered this point. This was his reply.

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.   
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it.   Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening.    And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss.   If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference.   It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know.   It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical……………
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song".

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:45 AM

Dear Geoff,
Thank you for pointing out my error. I must apologise for my literary lapse - it must go against everything you stand for in your campaign to make poor writing a thing of the past.
Contrary to your friend's statement, you seem to be intent on pursuing our differences. I have to say I can see no purpose in this as you appear to be quite set in your attitude to the tradition, its performers and others working in the field, but in the spirit of friendship and co-operation I am prepared to continue our argument on the condition that you open up another thread in order that people interested in the current topic (The Critics Group) be allowed to continue discussing it.
Very best wishes,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM

Jim,

'Poor writing' was never my target, but poor research remains so and on the day when you finally admit that your notes to 'Around the Hills of Clare' fall into that category and did a gross disservice to your recorded singers from Clare, then there'll be a whooping and a hollering in the streets of Lahinch!

You wrote 'Contrary to your friend's statement, you seem to be intent on pursuing our differences'. I presume the 'friend' you're referring to is Fred. Well, Fred is indeed a good friend, but his input to this thread has nothing to do with my own.

Labouring onwards, you use the phrase 'pursuing our differences'. I have no such 'differences' with you, Jim - they're entirely your own self-opinionated creation. Your messages to various newsgroups and lists have often revealed you as an ill-informed bigot who seems to know rather less than nothing about anything that's been happening regarding Ireland's traditional music over the last forty years. Then, whenever your ill-formed views are challenged you resort to one of either a couple of knee-jerk responses - 1) MacColl wouldn't have liked that, or 2) any involvement of 'non-traditional' instruments negates the debate. In terms of the latter, you've never defined your own assessment of what makes a 'traditional' instrument and the reason is, simply, that you're way out of your depth and haven't a clue!

I note that you've completely ignored my request for you to log on to the Mudcat site and give up your 'guest' identity. If you do so, then I'd be happy to start a thread regarding your inadequacies as a researcher, but then you won't do so, will you?

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:10 PM

Ignore the trolls! They should NEVER be fed.

Otherwise a very interesting thread.

CXharley Noble

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,The Ultimate Baconburger
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:55 PM

Jim Carol's description of the Critics Group's practise sounds like something hapening beyond the Iorn Curtain during the Cold War! Did we really invaded Europe for this>?

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:52 PM

practice!

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:00 PM

"Jim Carol's description of the Critics Group's practise sounds like something hapening beyond the Iorn Curtain during the Cold War!"

No it doesn't - what a stupid and facile remark!!

And who exactly "invaded Europe" for what?

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:01 PM

Why?
It was carried out by a group of people who wished to learn to sing, all of them voluntarily participants.
It is a method used by many theatre schools - and it was effective enough to produce great singing and some groundbreaking research work.
Perhaps you might give an example of where it was used 'beyond the Iron Curtain' - was always told that's where they shot people.
Constructive criticism and helpful advice is far more productive than constantly being told you're great - especially when you're not!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:51 PM

I think that Jim Carroll has at last given us a truly valuable insight into how the Critics Group worked; Mr Baconburger may find the techniques redolent of Communist or Maoist practice but the kind of open discussion of performances between fellow artists was also very common in theatrical circles at the time. As Jim observes, it can be an incredibly stimulating way to develop your own performance by getting honest and sympathetic feedback from other artists who are interested in the same thing.

It doesn't work for everyone - Anne Briggs notably thought the Group a waste of time; but it certainly didn't produce MacColl clones. The singers who participated in Critics Group sessions are all very clearly individuals who discovered their own ways of singing - but from what I have gathered they were all enriched through the experience. Just listen to Lou McKillen, Bob Blair, Frankie Armstrong, Terry Yarnell and Sandra Kerr to see how differently and powerfully they developed.

Fred McCormick has also clearly shown where anybody should look if they wish to question what Ewan MacColl contributed to folk music, and thanks to him too for reminding us how huge Ewan's achievement was.

As an afterthought may I suggest that Guest 'Terry' be nominated for the Earl Richard Award for Supreme Tactlessness!

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 09:49 PM

Mathew-

Very well put.

As for the guests:

Ignore the trolls! They should NEVER be fed.

Otherwise a very interesting thread.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:02 AM

Don't know if this thread will continue - hope so.
I'm off to Fermanagh to celebrate (???) my birthday, so I won't be around for a few days.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Megatroll123
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:49 PM

Some of us on this thread resent the kind of messages submitted by the likes of Charley Nobel. He and his like dish trolls but never come up with anything intresting themselfes.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,And
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:19 PM

It's been really interesting fot me to read that Gordon McCulloch is still going strong on the Glasgow scene; he's a cousin of my ex-husband's and I'd wondered how he was.

I have a couple of compilation CD's of Scottish stuff with The Exiles on, and would love to hear some more of Gordon's output. My son has played at our local live music club, so music's carrying on down the McCulloch line.

Sorry to interrupt your debate ... carry on.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: John Routledge
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:14 PM

"Folk stars of the '60's" including Ewan and Peggy are performing on BBC4(UK) Thursday 27 July in a two hour programme starting midnight and going into Friday morning. Should be interesting at worst but no guarantees:0)

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Burglar Bill
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:22 PM

Good news that you're away, Jim. You'll find what's left of your property that we couldn't fence at the back of the skip in Claregalway. Sorry, but we chucked all the old tapes into a field on the way.

Bill

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Muckraker
Date: 28 Jul 06 - 01:36 PM

Bill you could at least have left something for we scavengers. I found a decent armchair, but those tapes are a pile of shite and I couldnt fence any of them in Limerick.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 02:23 AM

Thanks for letting me know Bill - I wondered what happened to my 'Big League' certificate.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

Jim,

Knock it off!

Fred McCormick

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: seligmanson
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:26 PM

I've come to this thread a hell of a long time after it was in its prime, but for those of its contributors who catch up with it occasionally, or for late-comers such as myself, here's my pennyworth. I was a member of the London Critics Group, the 'Dick Snell' mentioned above in relation to my time at the Cecil Sharp House Cellar Club. I knew many of the Critics Group's original members from my schooldays - indeed, it was they who encouraged me when in my mid-teens to take up singing seriously - and I knew McColl for several years before I joined the Group. Because of this I feel my opinion has some value here. My time with the Group was extremely instructive in a variety of ways, not all of them agreeable, and I left the Group under very bitter circumstances - Jim Carrol may recall the circumstances as presented to him by McColl and Seeger. Accordingly, my feelings about the work done by the Group - described with clinical accuracy by Jim - are profoundly mixed. Inevitably personalities played a large part in the way it operated, and it was not always healthy, as I'm sure Jim will be honest enough to agree. My personal view of McColl's and Seeger's own contribution to the final demise of the Group is fairly unequivocal. But I have to say that the kind of abuse heaped on the Group by certain people whose understanding of its aims and its work is coloured by political and personal prejudices that only they can account for is not only unpleasantly discourteous, but profoundly unwarranted. A huge number of highly-talented performers owe their ability to use their talents fully to the work they did with the Group, even those of us who finally fell out with Ewan and Peggy, and daring to call singers like Frankie Armstrong, John Faulkner, Sandra Kerr, Terry Yarnell amongst many others 'no-hopers' can only indicate in the writer of that phrase a powerful streak of ignorance and, quite possibly, envy. McColl, for all his failings, and there were in my opinion many, was the most thoughtful and most influential contributor to the creation of a cultural movement which has survived every kind of attack on it for over six decades: I refer to the so-called 'Folk Revival', of which everybody who contributes to this forum is a beneficiary. Added to which, the wide range of themes he chose for his song-writing provided inspiration and opened up possibilities for many great song-writers such as 'popular' music was and is incapable of providing. And on top of that, the revolutionary influence his work with Charles Parker had on broadcasting is still very much felt today: and you don't have to understand his methods or agree with his politics - which at least were rooted in the concepts of compassion and fairness - to appreciate any of that. We are all entitled to express our opinions, but if we cannot do that without using petty abuse or on the basis of firm knowledge, we should not expect those opinions to be respected.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 08:12 PM

Hi Dick (Snell, that is),
Wonderful to hear from you again - more later - I hope.
I have to say that I was never part of the personality differences of the group, though I am all too aware of them and the effects on its work.
As far as I'm concerned, my period in the Critics Group, as short as it was, influenced my attitude to folk music to such an extent that it has left its fingerprints over virtually everything Pat and I have done since.
Dick (Miles - that is);
I'm not sure of your motive for bringing up Wallis's review of 'Around The Hills of Clare' - not that I have any problems with it; I've always been happy to discuss it with anybody interested.
Those wishing to judge for themselves the rights and wrongs of what is, for me, one of the most distasteful experiences I have encountered in all the time I have been involved in folk music, is free to do so - the review is still to be found on the Musical Traditions web-site (though I can't help but notice that the cause of all the trouble - the Elizabeth Crotty review, has mysteriously disappeared into cyberspace).
Whether the 'reviewer's' hatchet job of our notes was justified or not, is there for all to make up their own minds. But the fact that thoughout what was the longest review I have ever come across, of a forty track double CD featuring nearly 20 performers, totally failed to discuss either the singers, the singing or the songs included - says all that needs to be said about the motives of the reviewer.
It is enough to know that 'Hills' ranks with the most successful album of field singers produced.
Now - what do you want to know?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 05:28 AM

Sorry, my last posting should read Elizabeth Cronin - not Crotty - never post late at night!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 07:00 AM

my apologies, Jim,I was reading the post late last night,and submitted the message in error.
[Whether the 'reviewer's' hatchet job of our notes was justified or not, is there for all to make up their own minds]quote Jim Carroll.
I have the cd Around the Hills Of Clare,which I have enjoyed,Ihave found the sleeve notes comprehensive and useful.

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 11:57 AM

Off the topic of the thread, and while I also would hate any return to an old debate that was indeed an "absolute nadir of bitchery", I'll note that the Elizabeth Cronin review is still present on the Musical Traditions site. The review index (under "Ireland" in the Main Reviews drop-down menu) has headings grouped under "Individual Performers" -- where that one appears, "Various Performers" -- where "Around the Hills of Clare" appears, and "Books" -- where the Cronin review is also listed.

Perhaps best to get the cds themselves, which nobody debated were of value, and make your own judgements, though. Criticism is a tricky subject. :-)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: RTim
Date: 05 Oct 09 - 12:01 PM

Interesting - I am just about to copy my LP of The Critics Groups - Ye Mariners All, recorded in 1971, onto digital media so that I can down load it onto my iPod?
I don't think I have listened to the LP for over 20 years!!!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: any info on the Critics Group?
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 12:16 PM

For anyone interested in hearing how some ex-members of the Critics Group perform these days then you can hear some of them in a tribute concert to Ewan MacColl on the following dates -

Saturday 24th October - Glasgow Caledonian University 2-5pm
                     
                Frankie Armstrong Bob Blair, John Faulkner
                Sandra Kerr,Brian Pearson,Peggy Seeger


Tuesday 27th October - Salford University -    7-10pm

                     Bob Blair, John Faulkner Sandra Kerr,
                         Brian Pearson,Peggy Seeger