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Origins: Wild Rover

DigiTrad:
HELL'S ANGEL (WILD BIKER)
WILD ROVER (NO NAY NEVER)


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Jack Campin 26 May 15 - 07:29 AM
Brian Peters 26 May 15 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Hilary 26 May 15 - 03:14 PM
Brian Peters 26 May 15 - 03:26 PM
Jack Campin 26 May 15 - 03:30 PM
Richard Bridge 26 May 15 - 05:19 PM
Steve Gardham 26 May 15 - 06:28 PM
Steve Gardham 26 May 15 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,jim bainbridge 27 May 15 - 03:19 PM
Les in Chorlton 28 May 15 - 04:54 AM
Brian Peters 28 May 15 - 05:55 AM
Brian Peters 14 Jun 15 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,Learaí na Láibe 04 Nov 18 - 02:26 AM
JHW 04 Nov 18 - 06:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 May 15 - 07:29 AM

It was written by T. Lanfiere in the 1680s and published as a broadside. I doubt he based it on any earlier original.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 May 15 - 08:58 AM

I published a paper on the subject in the Folk Music Journal last year. I'll post the essentials here, when I've got time off touring with Jeff Davis.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Hilary
Date: 26 May 15 - 03:14 PM

It may be related to "The Alewives Invitation." That broadside contains a couplet "It's known a good fellow I've been many a year/
And much have I spent in wine and strong beer" and has the theme of the landlady rejected a man when she finds out he has no money. It also warns young men not to spend all their money drinking. "The Alewives Invitation" is supposed to be set to "Digby's Farewell" and has the same meter as the Wild Rover (not that that means a whole lot.) http://abcnotation.com/searchTunes?q=digby%27s+farewell&f=c&o=a&s=0


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 May 15 - 03:26 PM

There are indeed similarities to 'Alewife' (and other similar broadsides of the period), but Lanfiere's 'Good Fellow's Resolution' is the closest match. You can trace the process of evolution into something resembling the song we all know through successive broadsides over 100+ yuears. The Dubliners' hit owes much to Australian and Canadian versions as well.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 May 15 - 03:30 PM

OK, when, who and where for "The Alewives Invitation"?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 May 15 - 05:19 PM

YES - I want to know more!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 15 - 06:28 PM

Copies of 'The Alewives Invitation' are available on the English Ballads website at Santa Barbara, University of California. I think they are all copies of the same sheet printed by Brooksby. Roxburghe dates it at c1672 but I think it's probably a little later. It is part of a whole set of ballads that utilise similar phrases around that time. However, the modern song is unmistakably directly descended from The Good fellow's Resolution also in Roxburghe c1680 and also on the same site. The earliest related piece I can find is by John Wade 'A Caveat for Young Men' c1666-78 again in Roxburghe. There are all sorts of offshoots from these ballads printed in the next 2 centuries, one of them being 'The Green Bed'.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 May 15 - 06:29 PM

That last post took about 75 goes to get posted!!!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 27 May 15 - 03:19 PM

Brian Peters' interesting article in 'Folk Music Journal' Vol 10 No 5 was pointed out to me by Johnny Handle and covers this subject very well, academically at least. I often ribbed Louis Killen in his later years about being responsible for teaching the Clancys this song, which became the scourge of many a good singing session.

He never admitted teaching it to anyone, but said that he'd learned it from a radio show in the forties- Brian's article confirms this, and DO NOTE that his article mentions other songs from the same programme- 'Dark-Eyed Sailor' 'Foggy Dew' Pleasant & Delightful' and 'Banks of the Sweet Primroses'. ALL of these were firmly in Louis Killen's repertoire in the mid 60s when I first heard him, so that to me strongly confirms the accuracy of Brian's article. Do READ it before issuing rash declarations as to its origin.

I have little doubt that Luke Kelly picked it up from Louis on his visits to the Newcastle folk club around 1960, when he 'collected' many a good song, and also realised that he knew folk songs from his own background and used all of these songs later as Dubliners material!

By the way, I have never understood how the old Geordie song 'Cushie Butterfield' (yes I know its air is a London music hall tune) ever was a big hit in the Irish pop charts about 40 years ago via Paddy Reilly/Brendan Shine?? - maybe this was via the Louis Killen/Luke Kelly connection as well, although how this dialect song was ever more than gibberish to the Irish ear still mystifies me- any views?

Anyway, to sing the 'standard' version of the song may be unwelcome these days in 'traditional' circles but if you're in a noisy non-folkie pub anywhere, just sing that song & you'll be able to sing whatever you like for the rest of the night....


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 May 15 - 04:54 AM

I've sung the Wild Rover for many's the year
I've sung it so often, I'm sick up to here
But now I have taken vows twenty or more
I never will sing the Wild Rover no more ..............

Although I certainly will - after pointing out that it is not an Irish drinking song but an English temperance song.

Cheers


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 May 15 - 05:55 AM

Yes indeed, Jim: one of the points I was trying to make in my article (and I will post a precis here soon, I promise) was that the Dubliner / Clancy 'WR', although a folk revival concoction, has been handed back to popular culture. In fact it's more of a true 'folk song' now than its 'more authentic' predecessors. So, although I will carry on singing my lovely English version from Hampshire, I'm not about to rubbish the version that many ordinary pub-goers and people at large enjoy singing along to.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: Brian Peters
Date: 14 Jun 15 - 12:59 PM

OK, I've finally got round to boiling my FMJ article down to the essential points. Here goes:

1.  The ultimate source of TWR is almost certainly be Thomas Lanfiere's 'The Goodfellow's Resolution' from the late 17th century, one of a number of moralistic broadsides of the period describing the wayward behaviour and subsequent regrets of 'Bad Husbands' and the treachery of alewives (landladies). TGR is the only one of the 'Bad Husband' ballads to feature the deception of the landlady regarding the customer's financial means. It's been discussed here before - see here.

2.  Lanfiere's 13-verse text was edited and condensed, appearing in late 18th / early 19th chapbooks and broadsides, with the 'Bad Husband' being converted to a 'Wild Rover' along the way. Different stages in the evolution are preserved in these print versions, which had found their way into English oral tradition (sung to a different tune from the familiar one) by the early 19th century, when a harmonized version crops up in Thomas Hardy's grandfather's songbook. The song was also reproduced in American songsters, mid-19th C, and was extremely popular in Australia – where three different strains and a Country & Western rewrite all did the rounds.

3.  At some point the 'No, Nay, Never' chorus replaced the earlier 'Wild Rover, Wild Rover' form - I located (thanks, Jack Campin) only one, very late, broadside copy from Scotland including the NNN refrain, but it was present in versions collected orally in Scotland by the early 20th century which were distinctly different from the Hardy copy.

4.  The 'prodigal son' verse appears probably late 19th century and, together with 'No, Nay, Never', sweeps the board, the modified song appearing in oral versions from Scotland, England and Ireland through the early-mid 20th C.  It was popular in Yorkshire pub sings in the early 1960s, before the Dubliners or Clancys released their versions. The tune seems to arrive at something like the familiar one by this point, although one Irish variant has a lovely modal tune completely unlike the regular one.

5.  Louis Killen hears a version on BBC radio in the 1940s, remembers it later, and adds it to his repertoire, padded out with source singer Sam Larner's words (this information comes from responses given by Louisa Jo Killen in the year before her death).  The BBC version seems to have come from Nova Scotia (the alehouse is in 'Halifax Port') and has the extended chorus – dwelling for three beats each on 'No', 'Nay' and 'Never', followed by a gap - that we're now familiar with (it doesn't occur in any other oral version). It was apparently 'collected' by BBC producer Jack Dillon on board a ship bound for Russia (where he was heading to fight in the civil war) in 1919. The Vaughan Williams Library has a 78rpm record of the song as Killen heard it, sung by a BBC baritone with small orchestra and chorus - amazing!

6.  Luke Kelly learns the song from Killen while staying in Newcastle in the early 1960s, but when he starts performing it, he uses a set of words from Australia instead of the Killen-Larner text (the 'returning with gold in great store' line originated in Australia).  The Aussie version was recorded in the 50s by Burl Ives, would have been easily accessible to Kelly, and is the most probable though not the only possible source (the Clancy Brothers actually say that TWR is an Australian song in an early performance for a Pete Seeger TV show that you can find on Youtube).

So there you go.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe
Date: 04 Nov 18 - 02:26 AM

Here's Sam Larner's lovely version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LArro0UqEbE


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Subject: RE: Origins: Wild Rover
From: JHW
Date: 04 Nov 18 - 06:30 AM

I mention this only as it does't seem to have had a mention before. (and I chanced to sing it 2 nights ago)
From EFDSS book THE LIFE OF A MAN, Songs from the Home Counties Coll. by Ken Stubbs.
Page 84. Sung by George Townshend, Lewes, 1961
Different melody (I can't copy music) and very different but readily joined in chorus:
'Wi-ild rover, wild ro-o-ver, wi-ild rover no-o mo-ore,
And I never, never sha-all play the wild rover no more.'
(And no prodigal son verse)


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