BS: Unarmed soldier killed, (London-May 2013)

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: selby
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:20 AM

I do not know where I live in this modern world, but my old fashion values believe nothing makes this heinous crime right.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:21 AM

Funny thing multiculturalism. I used to live in rural North Derbyshire with its very low ethnic diversity.

I always will recall my local pub and being a tap room bar fly myself at the time listeningto tthe usual suspects complaining that if "they" would only integrate more, "we" might not be so suspicious. Putting aside who the hell we and they are, I did nod slightly at the idea of self imposed apartheid being an issue.   Then... a black guy walked in and ordered some drinks for his family outside (walking country, lots of ramblers passing through. ) when he walked in the place went silent till he walked out again.

Quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:52 AM

I don't find that odd at all, Musket. I remember well the first black people I came across - Heather and Christopher Agboola. Can't remember where they came from but they joined our school, an RC primary, when I was about 9 or 10 I suspect - Very early 60's anyway. They were viewed as kids view everything new - With interest but a certain amount of trepidation. You don't say when the incident you refer to happened but if it was many years ago it is probably no indication of today's attitude.

Set me off thinking though. I have been hiking and fell walking for about 35 years. The number of black walkers I have seen can be counted on one hand - Including a very nice chap with his children I met about 4 weeks ago on a bridge over the Leeds/Liverpool canal at Kildwick. I suppose I could have asked him why black people don't seem take to the hills as us mad English do - But he may have took it the wrong way! I think I can also safely say that I have never met any Indian or Arabic looking people on the hills either - But plenty Japanese! I can say the same about our folk club - As far as I can remember only 2 black men and 1 black woman have ever been.

I would certainly never put this down to any hint of insularity on anyone's part - Both activities are as welcoming as any other. Maybe it is a culture difference of some sort? Maybe this is what people do not understand and are, therefore, frightened of? Dunno really. Just speculation and psycho-babble - neither of which do any good so before anyone draws any conclusion from this please note it is just a train of thought :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stu
Date: 24 May 13 - 09:11 AM

". . .and help genuine asylum seekers to their NEAREST safe country"

Why shouldn't they come here? Have we become so uncivilised we should turn those in need for our door?

"Love OUR WORLD being multicultural."

If this is implying that our country shouldn't be multicultural then as a statement it's beneath contempt.

What are you suggesting exactly here? How do we achieve a non-multicultural society? Tell me in words a five year old would understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 May 13 - 09:48 AM

Nic Clegg ( British Deputy Prime Minister) was talking about the killing today on UK tv, and I was fascinated to hear him list the things that - he said - the killers wanted.
He went on about them wanting to spread unrest and stir up tension.
The list went on and on, but what he didn't mention is what we know the killers wanted i.e. for Britain to get out of Iran, Afghanistan etc.
I thought that "big" omission on Clegg's part was very telling!

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Lavengro
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:12 AM

DtG "As far as I can remember only 2 black men and 1 black woman have ever been"

I seem to remember that in a wider sense this was not lost on Nick Griffin and other fascists, prompting the setting up of "Folk Against Fascism" in response?

DtG "I have never met any Indian or Arabic looking people on the hills either - But plenty Japanese!"

I used to work with a lot of Japanese, and I asked one of them why there was an apparent fascination among him and his countrymen in horse riding, golf and hillwalking? (we were a 30 min drive from the Beacons). He said that basically it was because they all needed space to perform, and that space was at a premium in Japan.

Apologies to all for adding to "thread creep". If membership was open I would have PM'd you.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:30 AM

Gravesend, the home of the original Sikh crash helmet riot, not a problem area? Come off it!

Nice to see you have re-invented the D-notice too. Whatever happened to that?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:49 AM

Thread creep is natural Lavengro - I don't think it is an issue. I could be (and probably am) wrong about Nasty Nicks involvement with the folk world but I felt it was more that he believed us Folkies to be rampant nationalists - Which FAF showed we were not!

Tunesmith - I am not at all sure if Britain, or the US for that matter, getting out of Iran and Afghanistan would help at this stage. All criminals would love for the police to get out of their towns. All bullies would love the teachers to get out of schools and those reveling in the chaos created by terrorism would love to be left to their own devices. Now, I have no argument with anyone questioning why and how 'we' were put in charge but that is a different issue. What I am questioning is the wisdom of leaving the innocent people of those countries to the mercies of those who would apply their kind of rule with much harsher force.

I don't necessarily believe that this will happen. The truth is, I don't know but am simply applying the 'better the devil you know' philosophy. I also consider myself lucky to not be in a position where I have to make the decision that would affect millions of lives and, even though I have little time for politicians of all types, I can sympathise with them in this no-win situation.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:00 AM

Tunesmith: "The list went on and on, but what he didn't mention is what we know the killers wanted i.e. for Britain to get out of Iran, Afghanistan etc.
I thought that "big" omission on Clegg's part was very telling!"

Telling but not terribly surprising. It's what all politicians do. Did he go on to tell us that they "hate our freedoms"? Even nicey nicey Lorraine Kelly was keen to talk over Ingrid (can't recall her long surname) the woman who spoke directly with the men, when she repeated the killer's talk about women and children being blown up in Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:05 AM

That we should leave (which we are anyway) is a widely held view.
Anyone can make their views known by writing to MPs and the press, organising petitions and protests and all the other ways that are open to free citizens in a democracy.

Chopping someone up is not a political action.
Indeed we can not be seen to be influenced by such acts, thereby encouraging more of them, so it actually makes it harder to make any change in that direction.

I do not think it is in any way appropriate to discuss British foreign policy as a cause for this act.
Many (most) here are bitterly opposed to foreign policies, but they do not chop people up.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 May 13 - 11:21 AM

I witnessed people spitting on the coffins of British service men and women arriving home from Afghanistan, I am yet to see or hear a public apology for those actions in any hastily assembled self beneficial news conference.

You're engaged in an important conversation, but this one was started by and is hearded along by a puppetmaster - the guest troll who has called himself many things over the years. This week he is "Alan." If it goes pear-shaped at some point, you have been warned.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 13 - 12:07 PM

Keith: should Bush and Blair have been entitled to expect no reaction at all within the UK against their reckless, ill-judged and illegal invasion of Iraq? Or is it that you think the resulting catastrophe, in which innocent civilians have died in many scores of thousands, should be met with peaceful protest and petitions? Stu made a good point about this, backup the thread, to which I would add that it is not only muslims who have been aggrieved by UK foreign policy.

I notice Alan did not respond when Alan asked him where he lived. Wherever he lives, DtG, I think you might find his views have been tainted by EDL "thinking." Witness this:

"I don't want to be alarmist, but if such attack operations were to occur again in the UK we could see some group or collective individuals deliver a measured response." Oh no, Alan, not alarmist at all.

Walkabouts: I don't suppose your "nearest safe country" line has anything to do with you thinking there will always be a nearer safe country than the UK? Try selling your selfish philosophy in Jordan (where my partner is right now): a country of little more than a million people which has grown to something like eight million (estimates vary); the increase almost entirely made up of refugees from Palestine, Iraq and now Syria.

I've forgotten who garnered the stats from an Islamic source on terrorist fatalities in 2011, but at a glance they look suspect to me, if only because they imply that very few fatalities if any were down to Shia muslims.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 May 13 - 12:19 PM

It was me, Peter. It was from WikiIslam - The link is above. I am quite happy to accept it may be wrong if someone can prove it but until such a time I can only assume it is true.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 13 - 12:56 PM

Keith: should Bush and Blair have been entitled to expect no reaction at all within the UK against their reckless, ill-judged and illegal invasion of Iraq?
Of course not.
No politician in a democracy can or does expect that.
Or is it that you think the resulting catastrophe, in which innocent civilians have died in many scores of thousands, should be met with peaceful protest?
Yes I do.
I am shocked that you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 13 - 01:26 PM

Perhaps, Keith, you don't have that much affinity, religious or otherwise, with any of those scores of thousands - in fact hundreds of thousands - of innocent Iraqis who died as a result of the Bush-Blair adventure.

For my own part I would probably not have the guts to respond with violence even if relatives of mine were caught up in the collateral. But that's not the point. It should be obvious to anyone that such a monstrous crime would provoke at least a few people to violence. And you are in Cloud Cuckoo land if you think the present level of terrorist threat is unrelated to US and UK interference in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:16 PM

Obviously there is no justification for killing anyone on the streets of London. Or other places.

We shouldn't pull troops out of Afghanistan and stop sending drones to kill people, mostly civilians, because some people take that as a reason for murdering a man here. In London. We should do it because it's wrong for us to continue to kill people ourselves, or to have people doing it in our name.

................

I suggest somene starts up another thread to talk about the stuff this thread has drifted to, which is interesting in itself - and sticj a link to t in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:52 PM

Agree McG.

For my own part I would probably not have the guts to respond with violence even if relatives of mine were caught up in the collateral.
And who would you chop up if you did have the guts?
A young soldier with a loving wife and kid?
A police man or woman?
It should be obvious to anyone that such a monstrous crime would provoke at least a few people to violence
Again, against who?

And you are in Cloud Cuckoo land if you think the present level of terrorist threat is unrelated to US and UK interference in Iraq and Afghanistan.
It maybe this time.
And if they do it because we allow gay marriage or women's rights, should we go back on that?
We are live in a democracy. Not by luck but by bloody sacrifice.
When a government ignores our will we throw them out.
We do not chop up helpless, unarmed young squaddies and pretend we are doing something noble.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:14 PM

Both here and in the USA democracy has ceased to function at all well.


But it is worth noting that in a war you kill enemy troops - and even civilians.

Also in a war, people from one country who assist the enemy are called traitors or Quislings.


Nothing at all to do with religion or colour.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 13 - 07:50 PM

"When a government ignores our will we throw them out."

And the next government continues to do the same things,

"We do not chop up helpless, unarmed young squaddies and pretend we are doing something noble."

No, instead we kill helpless unarmed people in other ways, far away from where we live, and in far greater numbers. And we call tat a noble enterprise.

Murder is obscene, wherever it is done. There is a duty on those in whose name it is done to denounce it and to repudiate it. That is indeed true of Muslim leaders, to whom it must be appalling to see an unarmed man chopped down by someone calling out the name of Allah - but it is every bit as much true of those of us whose governments involve us in organised slaughter in distant countries.

Subject: BS: The Woolrich Busker
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:11 PM

I know the busker who watched it all.

"He said they put chalk marks on the ground where the actors, sorry terrorists, involved had to stand.

"He said it was so obviously fake; the police threatened to beat him up unless he moved and kept his mouth shut."

http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2013/05/woolwich-false-flag-inside-job-fake.html

Don't know who you are, dude, but intelligence agencies tie up loose ends after operations like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 May 13 - 08:55 PM

What's with the "loving wife and kid" Keith? Does that make it a worse crime? You think maybe the guy was singled out because he had a loving wife and kid? Well sorry, but I'd bet his attackers didn't give a damn whether the wife was loving or not, or whether there was one child or five.

It often turns out that victims had loving wives and kids, whether they are British soldiers, Iraqi civilians or whatever, and regardless of who kills them. Grow up Keith, and don't be so pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST
Date: 24 May 13 - 10:07 PM

I would like to say something different from all of the previous discussions. Personally, I was amazed at the publicity given to the murderers and their cause, by showing them with bloodstained hands on the front of many of our newspapers. What encouragement to any others with their crazy ideas. I could not buy a newspaper that day, and I think that it would have been better to have a completely blank front page with a line saying that it was with respect to the poor lad that editors were not giving the killers their wished fame and publicity.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 03:40 AM

Sorry Peter for being pathetic.

For my own part I would probably not have the guts to respond with violence even if relatives of mine were caught up in the collateral.
And who would you chop up if you did have the guts?
A soldier?
A police man or woman?
It should be obvious to anyone that such a monstrous crime would provoke at least a few people to violence
Again, against who?

And you are in Cloud Cuckoo land if you think the present level of terrorist threat is unrelated to US and UK interference in Iraq and Afghanistan.
It maybe this time.
And if they do it because we allow gay marriage or women's rights, should we go back on that?
We are live in a democracy. Not by luck but by bloody sacrifice.
When a government ignores our will we throw them out.
We do not chop up helpless, unarmed young squaddies and pretend we are doing something noble.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 May 13 - 04:06 AM

No, when a government ignores our will we can no longer throw it out. This government has introduced fixed term parliaments and seriously restricted the obligation of a government to resign if losing a vote of confidence, and MPs frequently renege on the things they promised in order to get elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: GUEST,Eddie1 (sans cookie)
Date: 25 May 13 - 04:37 AM

This made me stop and think! Never a bad thing.

Woolwich Attack Response - Nabil Goes In

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 05:01 AM

Democracy has not failed because a minority are unable to get their unpopular views reflected in policy.
Extremists have always responded to that fact with violence, but I did not expect to see that response proposed here.

us whose governments involve us in organised slaughter in distant countries
If a majority believed that, the government would fall.
They don't and nor do I.

The slaughter in those lands is overwhelmingly committed by others, who happen to be Muslim.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 05:38 AM

"Woolwich Attack Response - Nabil Goes In"
Absolutely magnificent - and a million miles away from the crocodile tears of the racist morons who openly peddle their vomit-making race and cultural hatred on thread after thread after thread on this forum.
"who happen to be Muslim."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:15 AM

Jim, how would you describe those responsible for the slaughter in Syria?
Lebanon?
Nigeria?
Iraq?
Pakistan?
Egypt?
Afghanistan?
North Africa?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: bobad
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:33 AM

List of Islamist Terror Attacks For the Past 30 Days

Date         Country         City         Killed         Injured         Description
2013.05.24         Pakistan         Peshawar         2         3         Two other people are killed when a suicide bomber targets a rival cleric.
2013.05.23         Pakistan         Quetta         133         16         The Tehreek-i-Taliban "proudly claim" a brutal bombing that leaves over a dozen dead.
2013.05.23         Niger         Agadez         20         16         Suicide bombers detonate in a local army barracks, killing about twenty others.
2013.05.22         Afghanistan         Moqur         4         14         A suicide bomber detonates at a busy market, wiping out four bystanders.
2013.05.22         UK         London         1         0         An off-duty soldier is hacked to death in the name of Allah by two Muslims.
2013.05.21         Pakistan         Quetta         1         0         A Sunni police officer deliberately kills a fellow officer for being a Shiite.
2013.05.21         Iraq         Kirkuk         5         46         Holy warriors send razor-sharp shrapnel into patrons of a cattle market, taking out at least five.
2013.05.21         Iraq         Baghdad         6         18         Six people bleed to death when Mujahideen set off a bomb outside a cafe.
2013.05.21         Iraq         Abu Ghraib         11         21         Eleven people at a mosque bleed out following a bombing by Religion of Peace rivals.
2013.05.20         Iraq         Samarrah         8         15         Eight Shia pilgrims are sent straight to Allah by Sunni car bombers.
2013.05.20         Iraq         Anbar         13         0         Thirteen innocent kidnap victims are brutally executed by religious militants.
2013.05.20         Dagestan         Makhachkala         4         44         Four people are killed when Jihadists set off a bomb in front of a courthouse.
2013.05.20         Afghanistan         Baghlan         14         11         A Fedayeen suicide bomber murders fourteen people.
2013.05.20         Pakistan         Bajour         1         0         Fundamentalists fire on a polio team, killing a guard.
2013.05.20         Iraq         Hillah         9         26         Nine people are cut down by Religion of Peace rivals while leaving a mosque.
2013.05.20         Iraq         Baghdad         12         20         A dozen Shiites are torn to shreds by sectarian bombers at a market.
2013.05.19         Tunisia         Tunis         0         11         Eleven policemen are injured when Salafists throw petrol bombs at them.
2013.05.19         Lebanon         Tripoli         2         6         A boy is among two people killed during a sectarian clash between Sunni and Shia.
2013.05.19         Pakistan         Basya Khel         1         5         A bomb targeting children leaves one dead.
2013.05.19         Iraq         Haditha         8         0         Al-Qaeda attack a police station and kill eight occupants.
2013.05.19         Iraq         Rawa         3         2         Islamic 'insurgents' gun down three local cops in cold blood.
2013.05.19         Iraq         Baghdad         2         5         Religious radicals open fire on a group of men playing checkers, killing two.
2013.05.19         Iraq         Baqubah         2         0         Terrorists kill and man and his wife in their home.
2013.05.19         Afghanistan         Moqor         6         4         Six Afghans lose their lives to a Taliban ambush.
2013.05.18         Iraq         Latifiya         5         10         Jihad car bombers take out ten Iraqis.
2013.05.18         Afghanistan         Khak-e-Safid         1         0         A local policeman is gunned down in his driveway by Sunni hardliners.
2013.05.18         Iraq         Garma         4         0         al-Qaeda gunmen take down four Iraqis.
2013.05.18         Iraq         Basra         1         0         A Shia cleric is shot to death by Religion of Peace rivals.
2013.05.18         Iraq         Baghdad         5         0         Mujahideen enter a home and slaughter five family members, including two children ages 8 and 10.
2013.05.18         Thailand         Narathiwat         1         4         One person bleeds to death after Muslim 'separatists' bomb a hotel.
2013.05.18         India         Kupwara         1         0         Muslim militants from Pakistan shoot an Indian border guard to death.
2013.05.18         Syria         Damascus         3         5         Terrorists detonate a car bomb near a school, killing three people.
2013.05.18         Afghanistan         Bakwa         4         0         Taliban militants murder four Afghan soldiers with a bomb.
2013.05.17         Iraq         Baqubah         43         57         A double bomb attack on a Sunni mosque leaves over forty worshippers dead.
2013.05.17         Iraq         Baghdad         22         57         al-Qaeda bombers take down two dozen Iraqis with three bombs.
2013.05.17         Pakistan         Baz Darrah         21         120         Twenty-one worshippers at two mosques are sent straight to Allah by Religion of Peace rivals.
2013.05.17         Afghanistan         Kandahar         9         70         Islamic hardliners bomb a family restaurant, killing nine innocents.
2013.05.17         Yemen         Mukalla         1         0         A security officer is assassinated by al-Qaeda gunmen on a motorcycle.
2013.05.17         Iraq         Fallujah         2         8         Terrorists bomb a coffee shop, killing two patrons.
2013.05.17         Egypt         Alexandria         1         3         A Copt is killed during an assault by a Muslim bomb on a church.
2013.05.17         Pakistan         Mianwali         2         0         A faith healer and his wife are brutally murdered in their home by suspected fundamentalists.
2013.05.17         Iraq         Madain         8         25         Eight mourners at a funeral are disassembled by sectarian bombers.
2013.05.16         Pakistan         Mingora         2         1         A child activist and a peace committee member are shot by the Taliban in targeted attacks.
2013.05.16         Pakistan         Matani         5         6         Religious extremists open fire a convoy of local combat engineers, killing five.
2013.05.16         Pakistan         Peshawar         2         0         Two truck drivers are shot to death by Muslim extremists.
2013.05.16         Iraq         Kirkuk         12         18         A dozen people are torn to shreds when a suicide bomber self-detonates at a Shia mosque.
2013.05.16         Afghanistan         Kabul         15         40         A dedicated Sunni blows himself up in a city street, exterminating fifteen souls, including two children
2013.05.16         Iraq         Kamaliya         3         14         Three civilians are laid out by a Mujahideen car bomb at a taxi stand.
2013.05.16         Iraq         Sadr City         9         16         A 7-year-old child is among nine killed when Sunnis bomb a bus stop in a Shia neighborhood.
2013.05.16         Somalia         Gof Gadud         5         10         An al-Shabaab ambush leaves five dead.
2013.05.15         Thailand         Pattani         1         0         Muslim 'insurgents' shoot a 50-year-old villager to death.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Baghdad         14         68         At least five al-Qaeda bombs targeting Shiites leave a dozen dead and many more in agony.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Sadr City         7         33         Sunnis set off three car bombs in Shia neighborhoods, leaving seven dead.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Kadhimiya         2         9         Two people are taken out by Jihad car bombers.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Kirkuk         12         23         Two Jihad car bombings leave a dozen Iraqis dead.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Abu Ghraib         2         0         Two brothers are taken from their home and slain execution style by al-Qaeda.
2013.05.15         Iraq         Mosul         2         0         A suicide bomber kills two Iraqis.
2013.05.14         Iraq         Fallujah         2         0         al-Qaeda militants shoot two brothers to death.
2013.05.14         Iraq         Mosul         1         14         A child is taken out by Mujahid car bombers.
2013.05.14         Iraq         Baghdad         12         0         Fundamentalists execute a dozen people at a series of shops selling alcohol.
2013.05.14         Nigeria         Maiduguri         1         0         Religion of Peace activists shoot a pastor to death in his home.
2013.05.14         Afghanistan         Garmsir         3         7         Children are among the casualties when Sunni radicals set off a motorcycle bomb at a market.
2013.05.14         Syria         Raqqa         3         0         Video surfaces of the cold-blooded execution of three captives by al-Nusra Islamists.
2013.05.14         Syria         Deir al-Zor         11         0         al-Nusra Islamists summarily execute eleven captives on video while praising Allah.
2013.05.13         Libya         Benghazi         15         41         Islamists are thought responsible for a car bomb blast at a hospital that leaves over a dozen dead, including two children.
2013.05.13         Afghanistan         Helmand         3         0         Three Georgian soldiers are killed when a suicide truck bomber plows into their base.
2013.05.13         Pakistan         Bara         1         8         Taliban militants take out a child with a rocket.
2013.05.13         Iraq         Ramadi         3         7         A Holy Warrior detonates a suicide vest, killing three Iraqis.
2013.05.13         Afghanistan         Arghistan         10         12         Women and children are among ten civilians ripped to shreds by a bomb planted by religious radicals.
2013.05.12         Pakistan         Muslim Colony         1         0         A 19-year-old woman is strangled by her conservative family for getting pregnant.
2013.05.12         Pakistan         Quetta         8         97         A child is among eight people blown to bits by a Lashkar-e-Jhangvi suicide car bomber.
2013.05.12         Iraq         Basra         1         0         Religion of Peace rivals gun down a cleric outside his mosque.
2013.05.12         Iraq         Mosul         5         0         Five suspected al-Qaeda victims are handcuffed and shot in the back of the head.
2013.05.12         Iraq         Baghdad         4         0         Terrorists shoot four women to death in their own home.
2013.05.12         Iraq         Mishahada         3         0         Mujahideen murder three men walking by the side of the road.
2013.05.11         Pakistan         Manghopir         2         3         A suicide bomber sends two souls to Allah.
2013.05.11         Pakistan         Karachi         11         40         Children are among the casualties when Islamists set off a bomb blast targeting voters.
2013.05.11         Pakistan         Peshawar         1         10         A bomb outside a polling station leaves one dead.
2013.05.11         Iraq         Nineveh         3         21         A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills two women and a child.
2013.05.11         Iraq         Shurqat         3         19         Three people are incinerated by a suicide truck bomber.
2013.05.11         Pakistan         Panj Khata         1         35         A 10-year-old boy is taken out by a bomb planted by Sunni hardliners.
2013.05.11         Kenya         Mandera         2         4         Islamists throw a grenade at a group of Kenyans and then shoot them in the head.
2013.05.11         Afghanistan         Nuristan         1         0         A man is murdered in his own home by the Taliban.
2013.05.10         Pakistan         Kurram         3         0         The Taliban gun down three security personnel.
2013.05.10         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         Lashkar-e-Jhagvi kidnap and murder a Shiite civilian.
2013.05.10         India         Rajpora         1         0         A farmer is murdered inside his home by Muslim militants.
2013.05.10         Iraq         al-Dhera         1         5         A 2-year-old child is pulled into pieces by Mujahid bombers.
2013.05.10         India         Lassipora         1         0         An imam is shot to death outside his mosque by Religion of Peace rivals.
2013.05.10         Iraq         Mahaweel         3         7         Religion of Peace rivals bomb a mosque, killing three worshippers.
2013.05.10         Pakistan         Miranshah         4         21         Religious fanatics take out four locals with a bomb blast at a market.
2013.05.10         India         Pulwama         1         0         Hizb-ul-Mujahideen gun down a police officer.
2013.05.09         Pakistan         Torghar         6         10         A half-dozen people are disassembled by Islamic bombers.
2013.05.09         Pakistan         Karachi         1         0         Sipah-e-Sahaba gunmen murder a 35-year-old Shiite.
2013.05.09         Iraq         Baghdad         3         2         Terrorists kill three university students with a bomb placed on a bus.
2013.05.09         Yemen         Lahij         1         0         al-Qaeda gunmen take down a local traffic cop.
2013.05.09         Egypt         Cairo         0         1         An American professor is stabbed five times by a well-educated terrorist.
2013.05.09         Iraq         Hawija         1         11         al-Qaeda bombers take out an Iraqi child.
2013.05.09         Pakistan         Multan         1         8         Fundamentalists are suspected of opening fire on a political rally, killing one.
2013.05.08         Iraq         Abu Ghraib         2         3         Religion of Peace rivals set off an IED at a mosque that leaves two dead, including the imam.
2013.05.08         Pakistan         Beaver Ridge WV Canaan         2         23         A woman is among two people blown away by a Shahid suicide bomber.
2013.05.08         Pakistan         Hangu         2         18         Women and children are among the casualties when Islamic militants set off a bomb at a market.
2013.05.08         Thailand         Narathiwat         1         1         A 45-year-old woman is shot to death by Muslim terrorists.
2013.05.08         Afghanistan         Kandahar         3         0         At least three drivers are killed by Taliban gunmen at a protest.
2013.05.08         Iraq         Fallujah         3         2         al-Qaeda gunmen open fire on police officers at a checkpoint, killing two.
2013.05.08         Iraq         Mosul         1         4         A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills a civilian.
2013.05.08         Iraq         Salaheddin         1         1         A suicide bomber manages to kill one other person.
2013.05.08         Yemen         Lahij         3         0         Three men in a car are wasted by al-Qaeda gunmen.
2013.05.08         Iraq         Kirkuk         2         49         Two suicide bombers take down two Iraqis and injure about fifty others.
2013.05.07         Nigeria         Bama         26         0         Twenty-six people, including three children, are burnt alive as Islamists set fire to a police barracks.
2013.05.07         Afghanistan         Ghazni         4         1         Taliban bombers send four Afghan cops to Allah.
2013.05.07         Nigeria         Bama         14         0         Boko Haram attack a prison housing Islamist prisoners, killing fourteen guards.
2013.05.07         Algeria         Keddara         2         0         Two guards at a quarry are murdered by Islamic fundamentalists.
2013.05.07         Pakistan         Lower Dir         5         0         Five people are killed in a Taliban attack on a secular party official.
2013.05.07         Nigeria         Bale         1         0         Boko Haram murder a man in front of his wives and children.
2013.05.07         Thailand         Pattani         1         0         Militant Muslims shoot a clerk to death at a restaurant.
2013.05.07         Pakistan         Korangi         2         0         Two activists of a secular-leaning party are assassinated by religious fundamentalists.
2013.05.07         Pakistan         Hangu         12         35         At least a dozen people are obliterate when a Fedayeen suicide bomber detonates at an election rally.
2013.05.07         France         Roussillon         0         1         A Muslim who had recently returned from the Haj shouts 'Allah Akbar' and stabs a police officer at random.
2013.05.06         Thailand         Narathiwat         1         0         Muslim militants gun down a 62-year-old man on his way home from work.
2013.05.06         Bangladesh         Kanchpur         4         0         Four security officials are beaten to death by anti-blasphemy activists.
2013.05.06         Philippines         Basilan         2         0         An Abu Sayyaf ambush leaves two dead.
2013.05.06         Iraq         Mosul         5         0         Two bombings, one by a Shahid, leave five Iraqis dead.
2013.05.06         Iraq         Baghdad         6         13         Mujahideen roll grenades into a rival mosque, sending at least six worshippers straight to Allah.
2013.05.06         Syria         al-Quasair         20         0         Hezbollah is accused of butchering twenty people, mostly women and children, with knives.
2013.05.06         Iraq         Baghdad         7         26         Jihadi car bombers take out seven Iraqis near a restaurant.
2013.05.06         Pakistan         Peshawar         25         64         A Shahid suicide bomber detonates at an election rally, slaughtering over two dozen innocents.
2013.05.06         Bangladesh         Motijheel         1         0         A policeman is hacked to death by Islamists chanting 'death to those who insult Allah'.
2013.05.05         Iraq         Mahmoudiya         2         0         Mujahideen invade a home and shoot a man and his son to death.
2013.05.05         Iraq         Baghdad         1         6         Muslims set off a bomb at a rival mosque, killing a passerby.
2013.05.05         Pakistan         Sibi         4         7         The Tehrik-i-Taliban is suspected of attacking the convoy of a secular political candidate, killing four.
2013.05.05         Egypt         al-Arish         1         0         Four fundamentalists shoot a bartender to death for serving alcohol.
2013.05.05         Somalia         Mogadishu         11         20         Eleven people are ripped to pieces by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
2013.05.05         Bangladesh         Dhaka         4         24         At least four civilians are killed by a Hefajat-e-Islam 'siege'.
2013.05.05         Iraq         Jamiyah         3         13         Three patrons are killed by a Fundamentalist bomb at an Internet cafe.
2013.05.05         Somalia         Buulo Sheekh         2         0         A 95-year-old man and his grandson are murdered in their home by al-Shabaab activists.
2013.05.05         Afghanistan         Korghan         4         5         Sunni hardliners dismantle four civilians with a roadside bomb.
2013.05.05         Thailand         Narathiwat         2         3         Two Thais are killed by a Muslim 'separatist' bomb.
2013.05.05         Pakistan         Orangi         5         0         A 9-year-old girl and three women are among five shot to death during an honor killing at a brothel.
2013.05.05         Nigeria         Njilan         10         0         Islamic extremists stage a Sunday morning attack on a church and a nearby cattle market, killing at least ten.
2013.05.04         Thailand         Narathiwat         1         0         A 59-year-old truck driver is murdered by Muslim militants.
2013.05.04         Thailand         Pattani         1         0         Muslim terrorists shoot a 50-year-old civilian twice in the head.
2013.05.04         Mali         Gao         2         4         Two local soldiers are taken out by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
2013.05.04         Pakistan         Karachi         3         40         Children are among the casualties when Religion of Peace activists blow up a secular-leaning party office.
2013.05.04         Afghanistan         Farah         2         0         Two American trainers are murdered by a Taliban in uniform.
2013.05.04         Nigeria         Ngamdu         4         0         Religion of Peace activists tie up four villagers and cut their throats.
2013.05.03         Pakistan         Karachi         2         0         A 3-year-old boy and his father are brutally gunned down by the Tehreek-e-Taliban.
2013.05.03         Syria         Banias         145         0         Thirty-four children and forty women are among one-hundred forty-five victims of a sectarian massacre.
2013.05.03         Iraq         Baghdad         7         30         Sectarian Jihadis detonate a bomb at a rival mosque, killing seven worshippers.
2013.05.03         Pakistan         Islamabad         1         0         The prosecutor investigating a prominent assassination by terrorists is himself gunned down on his way home.
2013.05.02         Afghanistan         Barg-e-Matal         1         0         An Afghan policeman is picked off by a Taliban sniper.
2013.05.02         Syria         Bayda         51         0         Fifty-one villagers are slaughtered because of their sectarian status according to a human rights group.
2013.05.02         Thailand         Pattani         6         0         Muslim 'insurgents' murder a 3-year-old boy and five others when they fire into a Buddhist convenience store.
2013.05.02         Afghanistan         Pula-i- Alam         8         0         Sunni hardliners murder eight local cops with a roadside bomb.
2013.05.02         Pakistan         Manghopir         2         0         Two watchmen at a private school are murdered after threats from militants.
2013.05.02         Egypt         Qattawiya         1         0         A Facebook user is shot to death by the Muslim Brotherhood after criticizing the group.
2013.05.02         Iraq         Albu Faraj         1         4         A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills one other person.
2013.05.01         Iraq         Baji         5         0         Five police officers are taken down by an al-Qaeda blast.
2013.05.01         Afghanistan         Gereshk         3         4         The Taliban murder a peace envoy and two guards.
2013.05.01         Syria         Damascus         1         15         Sunni terrorists are blamed for a car bomb that kills at least one.
2013.05.01         Iraq         Garma         6         15         A suicide bomber detonates in a crowd, slaughtering at least a half-dozen.
2013.05.01         Pakistan         Karachi         2         0         Two Shiites are assassinated by Sipah-e-Sahaba terrorists.
2013.05.01         Iraq         Baquba         3         11         Mujahideen bomb a restaurant and murder a rival cleric in separate attacks.
2013.05.01         Nigeria         Gashua         7         0         Five civilians are among seven shot to death by Islamic extremists.
2013.05.01         Dagestan         Makhachkala         2         2         Two teens are killed by a bomb planted by Jihadis outside a store that refused to pay zakat.
2013.05.01         Iraq         Ramadi         2         10         Two Iraqis bleed to death following a shrapnel bombing by 'insurgents'
2013.05.01         Iraq         Hussainya         4         12         A brutal Sunni car bomb in a Shia suburb leaves four residents dead.
2013.04.30         Syria         Marjeh         14         103         Terrorists bomb a commercial district, killing over a dozen.
2013.04.30         Tunisia         Mount Chaambi         0         6         A half-dozen local soldiers and police are injured when Islamists set off land mines.
2013.04.30         Israel         Tapuah         1         0         A Palestinian stabs a 31-year-old Jewish father of five to death in an unprovoked attack at a bus stop.
2013.04.30         Jordan         Amman         1         0         A young woman is stabbed 20 times and beheaded by her brother after 'dishonoring' the family.
2013.04.30         Iraq         Baghdad         4         20         Religion of Peace rivals bomb a Sunni mosque, killing four worshippers.
2013.04.30         Pakistan         Karachi         2         0         Muslim extremists shoot two liberal party workers to death.
2013.04.30         Iraq         Sulaiman Beg         2         5         A Shahid suicide bomber takes two Iraqis with him.
2013.04.29         Syria         Damascus         6         0         Six bystanders are laid out by a suspected al-Nusra car bomb.
2013.04.29         Nigeria         Ringim         5         0         Sharia proponents send rocket-propelled grenades into a bank and police station, killing five.
2013.04.29         Pakistan         Charsadda         1         15         Children are among the casualties of a suspected Islamist bombing.
2013.04.29         Iraq         Mahmoudiya         6         14         Sunni radicals detonate a car bomb in a Shia neighborhood, sending a half dozen resident to Allah.
2013.04.29         Iraq         Karbala         3         14         Three Shia pilgrims are brought down by and al-Qaeda bomb.
2013.04.29         Iraq         Diwaniyah         9         23         Nine Iraqis at a restaurant are exterminated by al-Qaeda car bombers.
2013.04.29         Iraq         Amarah         18         42         Eighteen Shiites standing in a market are ripped to pieces by Sunni bombers.
2013.04.29         Pakistan         Adamkot         3         0         Religious radicals kidnap and execute three local security personnel.
2013.04.29         Syria         Nubbol         20         0         Twenty Shiite adults are reportedly abducted and beheaded by Sunni militia.
2013.04.29         Pakistan         Peshawar         9         60         Sunni hardliners plant a bomb on a motorcycle that kills at least nine people waiting fo

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 06:53 AM

Jim, it has been suggested that whenever you make that personal attack on me instead of discussing the issues, I make this statement.

'Jim, I fully accept that you think I am a racist, and as such worthy of abuse. This is something I dispute and is vehemently denied by Mudcatters who have met me personally; my family; the members of my church, and my community.

That aside, these are some opinions I wish to express and some facts I wish to highlight and discuss on this forum.

Therefore can we take your opinion of me personally as a given, and have a debate as to what I have to say, nonetheless.'

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 May 13 - 07:21 AM

Fat chance, Keith. Jim's infallible instamatic racist-spotter-equipment goes into auto-action with no interference from his intellect and his fingers just instinctively type away without his consciousness being remotely engaged. So just ignore...

~M~

Oh hell: I made a vow was going to stay off this thread; but Jim's tic·tic·tics have something of a similar effect on me...

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 07:31 AM

""As I said yesterday, my brother in law works in the media and his office received an email at 6am what amounted to be a gagging order, who to interview and who not, what to give coverage to and what not, which is why there was no coverage given to buildings attacked the previous evening in three areas of the UK.""

What a pity we can't apply a gagging order to the anonymous racist trolls who periodically crawl out of the woodwork here.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 07:42 AM

""Perhaps, Keith, you don't have that much affinity, religious or otherwise, with any of those scores of thousands - in fact hundreds of thousands - of innocent Iraqis who died as a result of the Bush-Blair adventure.""

That's an understatement Peter!

Any comment favourable to Muslims initiates a knee jerk that could send his footwear into orbit.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 07:51 AM

So Don, do you also believe that the killing was an understandable response to British crimes?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:00 AM

Hey Bobad - ya got a list of innocent civilians killed in Iraq & Afghanistan/Pakistan for the same calendar period?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:03 AM

"Jim, how would you describe those responsible for the slaughter in Syria?"
A Syrian despotic regime, once a valued trading partner and ally of Britain - how would you describe them (always bearing in mind that you suggested they be armed with "riot control equipment" in order to get the opposition tucked safely in their torture cells and out of harm's way)?
There is about as much significance that the people of Afghanistan or any of the places you mentioned are "Muslims" as it is that the people who are in there with their drones, helicopters and sophisticated weaponry are overwhelmingly "Christians" - the only people who can possibly have any interest in such insignificant details are those who would build a wall between anybody whose culture. colour or nationality is in any way different than our own.
What is significant is that those who have been sent to fight in these countries (including the poor bastard who was hacked to death), comes from oil wealthy and powerful oil-dependent countries who have seen fit to destabilise that part of the world to ensure that the oil keeps coming - even to the extent of inventing non-existent "weapons of mass destruction" to justify that destabilisation.
There is something more than a little revolting about those who would use the body of a freshly-murdered human being as a soapbox to promote race and culture hatred.
Said what I have to say - carry on hating!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:06 AM

"comes from oil wealthy and powerful oil-dependent countries "
Should read "wealthy, powerful and oil dependent countries" - sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:51 AM

Greg,the calendar period was the last 30 days, most of those on Bobad's list were indeed innocent civilians, and a list of those killed by British or even Western forces would be very short indeed.

Jim, there IS significance in the religion of those involved in the slaughter because it is mostly Sunni/Shia sectarianism.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 May 13 - 08:55 AM

Keith, I would have thought even you could understand what happened at Woolwich. Two guys with their heads full of crazy ideology murdered a soldier in some kind of desperate retaliation for what British soldiers have been doing elsewhere. Understanding does not mean condoning.

You obviously thought one of your posts was worth repeating, feeble as it was. Within it, again repetitiously, you wanted to know whom I would expect to be on the receiving end of any violent response provoked by violent American-British invasions. I didn't answer because the answer was obvious, but let me spell it out: I don't know. Often British and American intelligence agencies don't know, which is why it is hard to defend against. People who, rightly or wrongly, feel desperate can be very unpredictable.

And by the way, the assault on Iraq was opposed by a majority in the UK and it provoked the biggest demonstration ever in the UK. We didn't throw out the government, either then or at the subsequent general election. That's no big deal if our representative democracy over-rides the popular mood on (say) dog-licensing or daylight saving. But when it results in vast numbers of needless fatalities and the massive destabilising of a whole region, expect some blowback, both legitimate and illegitimate.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:06 AM

Peter, I am in favour of peaceful protest.
You say that is not enough.
I think that is wrong and I am sure you are in a small minority.

Anyone with strong feelings against the last Gulf war could have voted Lib Dem who contested every seat on an anti-war platform.
Very few did.
That is democracy.
You want something different.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:52 AM

Where did I say peaceful protest is not enough Keith? You think I will quarrel if the Woolwich Michaels are convicted? Incidentqlly I see thqt crimes against muslims have increased in recent days. Again not surprising, but equally wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 09:58 AM

Or is it that you think the resulting catastrophe, in which innocent civilians have died in many scores of thousands, should be met with peaceful protest?
Yes I do.
I am shocked that you don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 11:22 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Iraq_War
Speaks for itself really!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:11 PM

""So Don, do you also believe that the killing was an understandable response to British crimes?""

NO, I DO NOT!

Neither do I believe, as so many of our more detestable anonymous arseholes, that the actions of two demented bigots are in any way representative of the vast majority of British Muslims.

Do YOU?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:16 PM

What does it speak Jim?
I very much doubt that anyone reading that would learn anything new.
Does it say anything at all about an unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich?

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:19 PM

Neither do I believe, as so many of our more detestable anonymous arseholes, that the actions of two demented bigots are in any way representative of the vast majority of British Muslims.

Do YOU?

No, but a not insignificant minority ("thousands").

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:22 PM

""and a list of those killed by British or even Western forces would be very short indeed.""

Take it a step further and consider how that list will expand, if you examine the true figures for civilian casualties as a direct or indirect result of Western (including UK) forces action in other countries, instead of staying home and defending what is our country.

Try to think honestly, without your customary Muslim = Evil filter in place.

Whether others kill more, or fewer, civilians is irrelevant. It does not excuse us if we kill fewer, nor them if we kill more.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 12:52 PM

"What does it speak Jim?"
It "speaks" (whatever that particular piece of gibberish means), that worldwide democratic opposition to an illegal war doesn't stand fiddler's fart of a chance when it clashes with the interests of multinationals.
Your taking over of a thread once again to trot out the party line "speaks" that you have no intention of desisting from using the body of a barely cold victim of a vicious murder as a platform for your Islamophobic rant.
Nothing changes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 May 13 - 01:06 PM

I look forward with interest to see how you defend the establishment if it turns out to be true that MI5 attempted to recruit one of the killers - a Muslim plot, no doubt!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Unarmed soldier killed, Woolwich (London)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 May 13 - 01:13 PM

I think it probably true Jim.
I think it a sensible policy to employ informers.

Don, do you believe our forces are involved in indiscriminate killing.
You know about British rules of engagement?
You know our soldiers are instructed in legal and illegal military actions, that they must refuse to obey illegal orders and that they are held accountable for every round fired?