Chanteys in Royal Navy?

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 06:51 AM

Harry: I'm clear on some folk's personal definition of song does not include musical accompaniment and/or straight up instrumentals. Different definition of song; different answer to the same question. That's all one needs to know.

Now if Jamieson has anything like an R.N. standard definition or formal prohibition, that I would like to see.

I think it's folklore like the R.N. boatswain's pipe capstan shanties but I'm still wading through the sources. Who knows what will turn up?

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 05:29 AM

Whether or not there was a formal prohibition, it seems likely that singing during work would be contrary to the Royal Navy's customs and practice, as it would be considered prejudicial to good discipline. It would not have to be spelled out in the Kings Regulations, it might simply be not the "done thing" and therefore not allowed. Especially as in the merchant marine shanties were often used as an opportunity to criticise the officers, which would not be tolerated in the Navy. A tune on a fiddle would be sufficient to co-ordinate effort without allowing the sailors to voice their discontent.

That would not mean shanties might not be used on isolated occasions. A good officer would know when bending the rules and allowing the men to let off steam during a particularly difficult task could prevent future trouble.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 08:05 AM

From:

McInerney, Vincent (Ed). Landsman Hay: the Memoirs of Robert Hay. Barnsley: Seaforth/Pen & Sword Publishing, 2010

Chapter 8, Rear Admiral Sir Edward Pellow - voyage to the East Indies: July-November 1804.

Page 81 . . . .

"All hands up anchor, ahoy! Ship the capstan bars there, carpenters, bring to forward, jump down the tier, man, and coil away the cable."

"Aye, aye sir"

"Are you ready there forward?"

"All ready, sir"

"Heave away. What kind of a drawling tune is that, fifer? Strike up 'Off She Goes' or 'Drops of Brandy'. Keep step there, all of you, and stamp and go. Light round the messenger there, aft, hand forward the nippers, you boys.

"The anchor is a-peak, sir"

Robert Hay ran away from home, aged 14, to join the Royal Navy in July 1803 and he served until 1811. His memoir was written in 1820/1

This edition, the one I have, is an an abridgement of an edition published in 1953 by Rupert Hart-Davies edited together with other material published in the Paisley Magazine.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Lighter
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 03:23 PM

And - just to be clear - there are no lyrics to either "Off She Goes" or "Drops of Brandy."

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 04:31 PM

http://www.norbeck.nu/abc/lyrics.asp?rhythm=slide&ref=10

Off she goes to Donnybrook Fair..

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 04:36 PM

Howard: ...it seems likely that... seems to be the foundation for most of the standard shanty paradigm.

Pending further research, it seems likely the R.N. used the same ill-defined, uncontrolled practices to hoist spars or cargo or whatevs with their capstans and were not restricted to anchors alone. And over the course of a century or so, one would find much the same variation/deviation in the needs and practices of the merchant fleet(s.) We have not found any formal industry requirements there either, have we?

I could speculate a dozen other reasons to use lyrics or not. Why bother? Bottom line, no documented standards, practices or glossary in either the martial or merchant maritimes... that we know of. Seems likely more detail will turn up eventually if the effort is put in.

The elephant in the room is... it probably doesn't matter unless one needs the lyrics for their commerical production value. Instrumental music limits one's market niche to skilled musicians. Lyrics give you access to every consumer what speaks the language.

Unless, of course, one thinks the English language is a performance enhancement or advantage in physics.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 06:32 PM

fwiw: Maritime work song has always been a social contract between two or more classes; collegia and corpora; labour and (middle) management; oppressed sailors and greedy owners... and everybody has always had a complaint.

Methinks a general preference for the instrumental, or disapproval of lyrics if one prefers, was often in place in the so-called 'proto-shanty' era. And the same attitudes in both classes would limit the selection of all work song and forebitter of any sort.

Sea Shanties from 'The Complaynt' (1549) (Note the stretch in OP's personal definition of the genre label.)

Until they invented Protestant sailors, Western shantying was mostly Catholic, most of the time, or else... You think the Anglican R.N. "Blue Lights" were restrictive? Pffft! Amateurs! The record does note changes in Catholic celeusma and gritaria practices when the Inquisition formally ended... thanks to Nelson, Wellington et al. Coincidently, (??) right about the advent of the shanty era.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Harry
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 04:04 AM

Lighter,

I didn't mean to suggest they sang; I was just providing one example of music being used by the RN to encourage the men in one particular instance.

It doesn't mean all ships would have done the same.

The Articles of War of 1661 & 1749 didn't proscribe singing. I don't have a copy of the Naval Discipline Act of 1866 but I'd be surprised if that did either.

Each ship's Standing Orders would be different; Royal Naval captains were an individual bunch and the way their ships were run would have been equally individual. All the reports I've read support the notion that work would have been conducted as silently as possible so that voiced or piped orders would be heard.

There are many reports of singing and dancing below decks when RN sailors were off watch.

This thread does seem to have drifted away from "Chanteys in the Royal Navy?" towards another general discussion of "chanteys".

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:00 AM

What do we know about the role of fifer or fiddler on an R.N. ship? Not all work involved hauling - there were other things to be done and times, especially on a long passage, when not much hauling was needed. So the ABs were doing something else. And if that's off the topic of chanteys what did whoever might have led singing (if there was any) do when a fifer would have fifed?

Was the fifer a 'trained musician' (and was the shantyman a trained singer) or was it an additional skill or something a no longer abled AB did (like the wardroom 'peggy')? Knocking out 'Off she Goes' and 'Drops of Brandy' is, I suspect, nowadays done by untrained (in a formal sense) musicians.

If the fife was used in action is was a specialist job.(for that matter what did gunners do when not fighting).

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:02 AM

(...other than endless dills)

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:03 AM

drills, sorry

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 05:00 PM

The vessels mentioned in The Complaynt of Scotland are armed merchant rowing galleys. When the modern genre label gets rolled back to the 16th century, the military and merchant histories & practices become one and the same.

The rowing fleet the U.S. Navy put to sea at the start of the 19th century wasn't all that different.

If your personal, modern definition of “chantey” is a cappella merchant marine, the R.N. is excluded by the class of practitioner, not the practice itself.

If your modern definition allows for both the musical accompaniment of singing and the pure instrumental, the R.N. is a maybe or maybe not for “chantey” according to each consumer.

If you use a period dictionary you will not find “chantey”... period. Your ancestor's word(s) however, would include the R.N. practices by definition.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 05:52 PM

I seem to be missing something here. Has the word 'chanty' however you spell it ever been used anywhere in a historical context to describe anything other than work SONG aboard merchant ships? Nothing personal about it as far as I can see. Your persistent desire to include other things under the term is commendable, but we would like to see some evidence.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 05:55 PM

Harry, I didn't mean you had. I meant only to emphasize that these were airs only - quite as we'd expect.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 06:02 PM

Let's not get bogged down in poststructuralism and deconstructionist thought, neither of which, IMO, is productive of much more than hot air.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 06:28 PM

RE Grievances: Silence/freedom cuts both ways. Labour can't complain, but an overbearing or fanatical management can't preach either. One person's disenfranchisement is another's protection.

And if the sailor's complanyt is the house's out-of-tune fiddler, we're going around in circles.

RE Labour: Ships are a business. The bigger and more complex they get, the more specialized the labour force. The larger ship's 'company' might be a different social class than the 'crew' &c. Smaller vessels or different rigs got by on less. eg: Little of what you'll read online would apply to the 19th century Bermuda sloops.

The few individual fifers I'm aware of (all Americans) were not professional musicians outside naval service. And it seems it wasn't usual for an American naval officer to have a personal fifer on staff.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 10:18 AM

Basing this on nothing but common sense, to me what the chantyman and the fifer/fiddler might have had in common is a desire to avoid the very different excesses of life aboard a greatly undermanned merchant vessel or a highly strict-disciplined naval vessel; hence, with a bit of imagination and craft, learning to lead the chanty or play an instrument, neither being necessarily highly-skilled as someone has already pointed out.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Aug 23 - 05:57 PM

Again, there never was an "official" definition of "chantey" anywhere in the real world maritimes, RN inclusive. There are far more references for the RN's use of maritime work song than there are for "banning" it. And c.1857 it would seem, still no official RN ban in the document record.

Gibb from the windlass doc thread: I recently saw social media posts on behalf of a certain traditional ship’s crew that was saying something like “If you’re able to sing a chantey, you’re not working hard enough.” That kind of misunderstanding, and how we got there, seems to me a shame.

One gets the impression the sentiment is older than the English language. At any rate, the contrarians do have their own history:

“All noise at work, either when at sea or in port, should be discouraged. Constant hails from aloft speak little for the attention of the officers, or the discipline of the ship. If the officer's eye is upon the work going on and the men under him at all times, as it should be, a telltale shake of a rope will be sufficient to have it cleared or let go. No singing should be allowed at the pumps or capstan; and even in trimming or setting sail, the men will work just as well together to the boatswain's mate's pipe as to any song, when they once get into the way of it; independently of the useless noise and confusion which singing out causes, it is very certain that no man can exert his full muscular power, while his lungs are braying out a “Yo heave ho!””
[The Sea Officer's Manual; Being a Compendium of the Duties of a Commander: First, Second, Third, and Fourth Officer; Officer of the Watch; and Midshipman; in the Mercantile Navy, Parish*, 1857]
* “Capt. Alfred Parish, of the East India Merchant Service.”

Just fwiw see: East India ship's fiddler William Litten's music manuscript collection &c. The so-called "Indiamen" sailed as armed merchants and often doubled as supply and troop transports to the RN when needed.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Aug 23 - 07:51 PM

Based strictly on the maths of the methods, the following may be considered typical of c.1800 onwards RN fiddler's work song:
Lyr Req: Sailor's Hornpipe
Lyr Add: Moll in the Wad
Origins: Off She Goes
Lyr Add: I Am a Brisk and Sprightly Lad

Note: Singing of the chorus was very much allowed and all the above were also commonly known stage, country and Regency dance tunes.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Aug 23 - 03:14 AM

From what I have gathered the Royal Navy was known as a ' silent service ' ie. no shanties.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Aug 23 - 05:12 AM

Dave: Clearly, more 'gathering' on your part was in order.

Lucky you, I have already posted a dozen+ references for RN use of all manner of rhythmic sound when going about any number of tasks in unison, complete with published sheet music for some titles. I also have at least a few authors discouraging the practice, and not just in the RN, (as above.)

Methinks both sides of the debate need work and lots of it.

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Aug 23 - 08:03 PM

Melville's _White-Jacket_ (1850) was quoted earlier. Here's another quotation from that work.

//
[pg90]
Now, the ship's cooking required very little science, though Old Coffee often assured us that he had graduated at the New York Astor House, under the immediate eye of the celebrated Coleman and Stetson. All he had to do was, in the first place, to keep bright and clean the three huge coppers, or caldrons, in which many hundred pounds of beef were daily boiled. To this end, Rose-water, Sunshine, and May-day every morning sprang into their respective apartments, stripped to the waist, and well provided with bits of soap-stone and sand. By exercising these in a very vigorous manner, they threw themselves into a violent perspiration, and put a fine polish upon the interior of the coppers.

Sunshine was the bard of the trio; and while all three would be busily employed clattering their soapstones against the metal, he would exhilarate them
[pg91]
with some remarkable St. Domingo melodies; one of which was the following:–

"Oh! I los' my shoe in an old canoe,
    Johnio! come Winum so!
Oh! I los' my boot in a pilot-boat,
    Johnio! come Winum so!
Den rub-a-dub de copper, oh!
    Oh! copper rub-a-dub-a-oh!"

When I listened to these jolly Africans, thus making gleeful their toil by their cheering songs, I could not help murmuring against that immemorial rule of men-of-war, which forbids the sailors to sing out, as in merchant-vessels, when pulling ropes, or occupied at any other ship's duty. Your only music, at such times, is the shrill pipe of the boatswain's mate, which is almost worse than no music at all. And if the boatswain's mate is not by, you must pull the ropes, like convicts, in profound silence; or else endeavour to impart unity to the exertions of all hands, by singing out mechanically, one, two, three, and then pulling all together.
//

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 23 - 06:40 PM

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Sep 23 - 06:40 PM

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Aug 23 - 08:03 PM

Melville's _White-Jacket_ (1850) was quoted earlier. Here's another quotation from that work.

//
[pg90]
Now, the ship's cooking required very little science, though Old Coffee often assured us that he had graduated at the New York Astor House, under the immediate eye of the celebrated Coleman and Stetson. All he had to do was, in the first place, to keep bright and clean the three huge coppers, or caldrons, in which many hundred pounds of beef were daily boiled. To this end, Rose-water, Sunshine, and May-day every morning sprang into their respective apartments, stripped to the waist, and well provided with bits of soap-stone and sand. By exercising these in a very vigorous manner, they threw themselves into a violent perspiration, and put a fine polish upon the interior of the coppers.

Sunshine was the bard of the trio; and while all three would be busily employed clattering their soapstones against the metal, he would exhilarate them
[pg91]
with some remarkable St. Domingo melodies; one of which was the following:–

"Oh! I los' my shoe in an old canoe,
    Johnio! come Winum so!
Oh! I los' my boot in a pilot-boat,
    Johnio! come Winum so!
Den rub-a-dub de copper, oh!
    Oh! copper rub-a-dub-a-oh!"

When I listened to these jolly Africans, thus making gleeful their toil by their cheering songs, I could not help murmuring against that immemorial rule of men-of-war, which forbids the sailors to sing out, as in merchant-vessels, when pulling ropes, or occupied at any other ship's duty. Your only music, at such times, is the shrill pipe of the boatswain's mate, which is almost worse than no music at all. And if the boatswain's mate is not by, you must pull the ropes, like convicts, in profound silence; or else endeavour to impart unity to the exertions of all hands, by singing out mechanically, one, two, three, and then pulling all together.
//

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Jan 24 - 01:41 AM

Nearest mention of anything like a 'ban' found in Queen's Regs so far:

“Chapter XLVII.
INSTRUCTIONS FOR SUB-LIEUTENANTS.
                        4.
To attend to the Men of his Watch.
When at sea, he is to see that the men of his watch are attentive to their duty, whether as look-out men or having other charge requiring their vigilance and constant attention; and when all hands are on deck for any service he is to take equal care that those at the station in which he is placed, duly obey the orders given with silence and alacrity.”
[The Queen's Regulations and the Admiralty Instructions for the Government of Her Majesty's Naval Service, 1844]

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 03:00 PM

My Dad served in the RN from 1939 to 1946. He remembered that only one "sailor song" seemed to have survived to his time in the oral tradition, and it was not a chantey but the forebitter "Magge May".

Before the advent of the portable gramophone, even in the RN men who had instruments (especially fiddles, concertinas and harmonicas) were encouraged to play them during "makers" (make-and-mend periods) and in the dog watches when most if not all of the ship's company was awake and anticipating dinner.

By the time my Dad went to sea, the gramophone (played through the ship's Tannoy system) had supplanted all that. (He developed a hearty dislike for Vera Lynn during patrol operations in the Indian Ocean.) But the boatswain's call survived, possibly because it, too, could be played through the Tannoy. Orders would begin with that piercing shriek and the phrase "Do you hear there? Do you hear there?"

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Lighter
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 04:16 PM

In the USN it was "Now hear this! Now hear this!"

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jan 24 - 07:35 PM

I have a tiny tie-in to this; my father was in the US Army in WWII, and served in Burma (Myanmar today). He said they were entering a village that the British military (branch?) had just vacated and there in the middle of the dirt road was a crank portable Gramophone. There was apparently a lacquer record on it that had played when the British marched out of the village.

My dad kept it, and I still have it (in my garage, I've never examined it). I remember being astonished by the story and that thing just moved here with much of the rest of his estate. I don't think the disc is with it, but I'll look next time I'm out there. (He was a librarian, and I kind of think a record of that event is what he had in mind when he scooped up the Gramophone. He never used it.)

Subject: RE: Chanteys in Royal Navy?
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Apr 24 - 04:20 PM

“It is our particular command that the ship's fiddler, when he shall be called upon to officiate at Guard Mounting, shall abstain from performing sad or lugubrious tunes, such being calculated to depress the spirits of the seamen, and render them miserable for the remainder of the day. Something in the style of “Pop goes the weasel.” is considered the most judicious; and Admirals are directed to give their personal superintendance to the selection of the music.”
[The North Lincoln Sphinx, Royal Lincolnshire Regiment, 1862]