Origins: Off She Goes

Subject: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 03:51 AM

“Off Shew Goyes
Book: The Calvert Collection (1799) - Page 15
Transcription: AK/Fiddler's Companion

"Off She Goes" was popular throughout the British Isles and North America. One unnamed source gives that in the days of sail it was a tradition for the fiddle player to sit on the deck of the ship playing "Off She Goes" as the ship departed harbor. In French-Canadian usage the melody is known as "Danse des Sutins (La)" although Gaspésie fiddle Yvon Mimeault (b. 1928) called his version "Gigue du bonhomme (La)" ('my old man's tune') since his it was a favorite of his fiddling father, Odilon. The author of English Folk-Song and Dance found the melody in the repertoire of fiddler William Tilbury (a resident at Pitch Place, midway between Churt and Thursley in Surrey), who, in his younger days, played the fiddle at village dances. Tilbury learned his repertoire from an uncle, Fiddler Hammond, who died around 1870 and who was the village musician before him. The conclusion was that "Off She Goes" and similar type country dance tunes survived in English tradition (at least in southwest Surrey) well into the second half of the 19th century. "Off She Goes" is contained in several 19th century English musicians' manuscripts, such as the Joshua Gibbons, John Clare, Joseph Kershaw and the Hardy family manuscripts. Kershaw was a fiddler who lived in Slackcote, Saddleworth, North West England, in the 19th century, and his manuscript dates from around 1820 onwards. Clare (1793–1864) was a poet and rural labourer from Helpstone, near Stamford, in the East Midlands. Gibbons was from Lincolnshire-his setting, originally appearing in the mss. in the key of 'C' major, has a somewhat divergent second part, as does the Kershaw setting. "Off she goes" in H.S.J. Jackson's (Wyresdale, Lancashire) manuscript book of 1823 is a different—but interesting—tune altogether (see [1]). See also the version in keyboard player Ann Winnington's music manuscript book (No. 16), c. 1810, wherein the frontispiece indicates she resided in New York. The melody was published in England in Thomas Wilson's Companion to the Ball Room (London, 1816) and in America in (Edward) Riley's Flute Melodies (New York, 1814).”
[The Traditional Tune Archive]

See also: Byker Hill (Humpty Dumpty &c &c.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 03:53 AM

...One unnamed source gives that in the days of sail it was a tradition for the fiddle player to sit on the deck of the ship playing "Off She Goes" as the ship departed harbor. [above]

Typical:
“Bring to,” cried the first Lieutenant. “All ready, Sir.’—“Heave round at the capstan, and run the anchor up to the bows.” Away danced the men to the tune of “Off she goes.”
[The Greenwich Hospital, The Literary Gazette, 1824]

See also: Huntington, Gale. William Litten's Fiddle Tunes: 1800 – 1802, Vineyard Haven, Mass.: Hines Point Publishers, 1977

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 03:54 AM

“Numbers III. And IV of Recreations for the Piano-forte; compofed by Mr. Latour. 1s, 6d. each Number.

The prefent Numbers of this ingenious and interefting publication contain the popular dance of “Off She goes,” and the Venetian Air in The Travellers; to both which Mr. Latour has added variations that will do him great credit with all lovers of animated and tafteful compofition. The paffages are in many inftances of brilliant effect, without any extraordinary difficulty of execution, and evince Mr. L. to be a thorough mafter of the inftrument for which he writes.”
[The Monthly Magazine, Vol.22, No.146, August, 1806]

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 04:00 AM

“Jean Théodore Latour (1766–1837) was a French pianist and composer. He wrote several piano sonatinas that have been adapted for early intermediate piano students. His work appears in several books designed for such students. Latour was appointed official pianist to the Prince Regent, later King George IV of the United Kingdom.” [wiki]
Note: 2 footnotes, both dead links.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 04:02 AM

“Chappel & Comp.
The firm is said to have commenced in 1812 at 124, New Bond Street, (premises which had been occupied previously by Goulding & Co.), with Samuel Chappell at its head and the two musicians, J. B. Cramer & Francis Tatton Latour, as partners. About 1819 or perhaps a year or so later Cramer left, and in 1824 founded a business of his own, while in 1826, Latour did the same, taking 50, Bond Street, a shop almost opposite the old one….

S. Chappell published music under his own name at 135, New Bond Street. In 1830 Chappell is said to have bought Latour's business and had established himself on the latter's premises, No. 50, and was in business alone. He died in December 1834, leaving his widow and his two sons, Thomas and William, as his successors.

About 1845 William Chappell, author of popular music, left his brother and became partner with Cramer & Co. The modern firm of Chappell is of course well known….

Latour, Francis Tatton.
Was first in business. with Samuel Chappell, but about 1826 founded one of his own at 50, New Bond Street, where he published sheet music. About 1830 Chappell bought Latour's stock and copyrights and removed into his premises.”
[British Music Publishers, Printers and Engravers: London, Provincial, Scottish, and Irish, Kidson, 1900]

Note: Still around today as Warner Chappell Music.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 04:08 AM

Corneil François Taton (Latour, Jean Tatton; Latour, Jean Théodore)
b. March 3, 1767 in Saint-Omer
c. April 26, 1845 in Paris
[Latour, Francis Tatton]

More Latour at: Help: Garryowen (Cory Owen)

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Sep 22 - 06:50 AM

So when did the first half of the tune get adopted as the tune for the nursery rhyme, “Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall”?

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 15 Sep 22 - 11:53 PM

Good question. On first pass, most of the alt titles in the OP are relatively new. The Humpty Dumpty Mudcat threads I could find were mostly about a new parody or old artillery. The wiki doesn't give music a mention.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 16 Sep 22 - 04:01 AM

'Off she goes' morphed into a reel, Anything for John Joe, as they call it in Sliabh Luachra.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 22 - 04:22 AM

Anything for John Joe, starts around 1.08

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 22 - 04:41 PM

'Off she goes' morphed into a reel, Anything for John Joe."
not in my opinion, I hear considerable differences

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 24 Sep 22 - 09:41 PM

This
Hugill, Stan, Shanties from the Seven Seas p7
from
Landsman Hay Memoirs of Robert Hay 1789-1847 (ed. M. D. Hay, Rupert Hart-Davies. 1953)

Sailing of H.M.S. Culloden towards the East Indies July 1804
“Are you ready there, forward?”
“All Ready, Sir.”
“Heave away. What kind of drawling tune is that, you Fifer? Strike up Off She Goes or Drops of Brandy! Aye, that is the tune. Keep step there, all of ye, and stamp-and-go. Light round the messenger there, aft, hand forward the nippers, you boys.”

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 04:46 AM

off she goes is 6 8 double jig time, drops of brandy is 9/8 time slip jig.. two differing tempos

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 04:54 AM

Different rhythms not tempo. Both tunes would have suited the task in hand or the fifer would not have been asked for them.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 05:38 AM

And Off she goes is usually classed as a 6/8 single jig, if you care to pick nits.

The transition from a 6/8 to a 9/8 tune is hardly unprecedented and it isn't particularly hard or awkward either.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 05:48 AM

A good, and well known, example of the 6/8 to 9/8 transition:


Patsy Touhey : Maid on the green/Jackison's/Give us a drink of water

but plenty of other examples around. The Bothy Band got away nicely going into the Swaggering jig from the Kesh, for example.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 09:25 AM

“Heave away. What kind of drawling tune is that, you Fifer? Strike up Off She Goes or Drops of Brandy! Aye, that is the tune. Keep step there, all of ye, and stamp-and-go. Light round the messenger there, aft, hand forward the nippers, you boys.” quote
The Shantyman would hardly change rhythms, during a particular job, FFS

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 09:34 AM

The change from a jig to a slip jig would barely be noticed so long as the tempo remains the same. I'm often playing in sessions where such changes are made. FFS!

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 10:57 AM

The transition from a 6/8 to a 9/8 tune would not have been used while working to a shanty.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 11:08 AM

Can you provide comprehensive evidence of changes of rhythms during a work song such as a Shanty.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 11:26 AM

I can't personally, can you show otherwise? But this wouldn't have been a shanty. A fifer or fiddler was used in the Navy to provide a regular beat to keep the sailors in time. A change in rhythm would not affect the beat although the accent may have changed.
I could point out that the quote says 'or' not 'and' and so no change at all may have been necessary.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 11:26 AM

Ah. The old Internet stifler of discussions: 'Links please!!'

Let's put the shoe on the other foot: can you provide comprehensive evidence the transition from 6/8 to 9/8 would have been out of the question? Were rules the resident fiddler's repertoire codified and written down?


The quote above, 'Strike up Off She Goes or Drops of Brandy!, obviously mentions the tunes by name, if, in fairness, 'or' is perhaps the operative word there.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 11:28 AM

How many guests are on here?

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 12:09 PM

IMO They would have worked differently to both tunes, because the rhythm is different.
I also would play them at different tempos for dancing, however we are not talking about dancing or playing in sessions.
The quote mentions Stamp and go, are you seriously trying to tell me it was not a work song?
IMO a change in rhythm does affect the beat, where you tap your foot changes between a single jig and a slip jig and a reel and a polka they are not the same thing,

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 12:28 PM

It was not a song. The work was done in silence to the sound of the fife.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 12:35 PM

The work was done to a musical rhythm the difference between a slip jig and a single jig is considerable , so to each type of tune whether it was a reel a slip jig or a single jig, they would have worked differently.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 01:54 PM

So, you are demanding comprehensive proof ti disprove your statement but can only provide guesswork to defend it?

Where is the 'proof' then?

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 03:43 PM

Old business: Above source notwithstanding, serious doubts Corneil & Théodore were really, truly the same person. But even the sources that keep them apart conflate their credits so, right back where we started from. Corneil's full name:

“1798
Jan. 31 Corneil Francois Taton De Latour of St. Luke, Chelsea, Middx., w., & Marie Armande Ferdinande De Chabrie, w. L., by C.B.B. Wit.: Jean Antoine De St. Germe, M. Marshall, Ann Howson, Cte Louis de Divonne”
[The Registers of Marriages of St. Mary le Bone, Middlesex, 1796–1801., Pt.VI, Bannerman, ed., 1924]

Fwiw, Théodore is our man but proceed at one's own peril.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 03:48 PM

Interpolating and extrapolating from one citation to the next based song title alone isn't good practice. And I'm not aware of any c.1810 chanty sheet music just yet. It's mostly penny dreadful, nickle weeklies and dime novels. You're lucky if you get two full verses of lyrics.

That said, Théodore Latour and the Prince Regent (George IV) means his sheet music belongs to the Jane Austin crowd: Regency dance. If you know an old-timey dance reenactor they may some of your answers.

And just to dig the rabbit hole a little deeper, in his spare time, Latour seems to have had a go at: O du lieber Augustin (Lieber Augustine)

But wait! That's not all! King George IV was Colonel-in-Chief of the Life Guard (1815–1830) along about the time they took a shine to Faithless Sally Brown (There's na luck about the House) .

Ain't we got fun... and filkies too!

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 25 Sep 22 - 06:18 PM

Who the fuck are the guests on here and who is arguing against whom?

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 04:56 AM

So I was mistaken
Some shantys switched Rhythms with shouts and squeaks slow and fast modes Hugill note this in various of his

shanties.
When it came to Capstan work they simply switched to a faster or slower shanty

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 26 Sep 22 - 09:11 PM

GUEST, GUEST -
There is no issue of tempo (faster or slower) or of changing tempo here. 6/8 and 9/8 are different meters, not tempos/speeds.

6/8 is a duple meter (2 beats) and 9/8 is triple (3 beats).

Do I imagine it as feeling possibly awkward-feeling to step/walk, around a capstan to a meter of 3 beats (9/8)? Yes, I do, because I have 2 legs. This appears to be why, though cultural outsiders tend to "hear" the Ewe agbekor rhythm as a 3-beat meter, Ewe people actually parse it in 2 beats to align with their 2-legged dance.
Nevertheless, examples of people marching to 3-beat tunes exist, though I suppose they are fairly rare. One example I can think of is "Green Hills of Tyrol," which I used to play on bagpipe, and which Highland regiments seem to get on just fine in marching to. So, my subjective *feeling*, projected, doesn't amount to a persuasive argument to doubt that the reference is true, i.e. that "Drops of Brandy" was a fife tune used for marching around the capstan.

These are not chanties, as chanties are songs, sung (hence "CHANT"), so that part is fairly irrelevant. I can't think of any chanty in a 3-beat meter (e.g. 3/4 or 9/8). The chanties are in 2-beats or (the kinesthetically equivalent) 4-beats (e.g. 2/4, 4/4, 6/8). The genre was based in actions that are duple in their nature, meaning that 2-beat meters gel correctly with the actions, 3-beats does not. The formal parameters of chanties, I believe, were regulated (and thus established) by their chief applications and the kinesthetics of those applications, which were duple-metered actions upon halyards and brake windlass. The whole chanty thing, in any case, is a different phenomenon whose aspects don't necessarily apply here. Different cultural histories, different time periods, different work.

This is about instrumental tunes that were employed in the period before chanties, during the kinesthetically different application of a huge capstan complete with messenger cable, nippers, and a large crew. The whole "nipping" process made such work painstaking.

Before the mid-19th century, Anglo ships' crews were enlivened by fife and fiddle tunes, we know. These references provide a credible record of what some of those tunes were.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,GUEST GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 04:39 AM

Gibb , I have been playing music for 50 years ,if I was to choose a rhythm to march to, I would choose a march, not a slip jig, whilst it is possible to march to a slip jig, in my opinion marches are best to march to.
Marches can be written in any time signature, but the most common time signatures are 4
4, 2
2 (alla breve cut time, although this may refer to 2 time of Johannes Brahms, or cut time), or 6
8. However, some modern marches are being written in 1
2 or 2/4
.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 08:19 AM

“Off she goes. A popular Dance arranged as a Rondo for the Piano Forte by P*K.” [1803]
Philip Knapton (1788–1833)

Also for piano forte by Knapton: Lyr/Tune Req: Caller Herrin'

PS RE: Instrumental-v-chants-v-sailors &c: I've got 60+ pre-1830 referrences that use the words "song" & "singing" to define the sounds that sailors made when going about tasks in unison. Instrumental/accompanied/a cappella are all good.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 08:23 AM

“At six o'clock on the morning of the tenth, the sound went forth, all hands up, anchor ho o o ey. Ship the capstain bars there, carpenters, bring too forward, jump down there, tier men, and coil away the cable. Aye, aye, Sir. Are you ready there forward ? All ready Sir. Heave away. What kind of a drawling tune is that you Fifer? Strike up, "Off she goes,” or “drops of brandy.” Aye, that is the tune. Keep step there, all of ye, and stamp and go. Light round the messenger there, aft, hand forward the nippers, you boys. The anchor is a-peak, Sir. Very well. Thick and dry for weighing there below.”
[Sam Spritsail, Chap. IV., The Paisley Magazine, Vol.1, 1828]
Note, See also: Landsman Hay, above.

Capt. Crunch voice: Hatch the mizzen! Abaft the binnacle! Ah-ban-don ship!

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 09:04 AM

9/8 marches may not everybody's first choice, that doesn't mean they don't exist or aren't relatively common. Dargah Battle of the Somme etc.

So again, no reason to dismiss the use of 'Drops of beandy' in the context of this thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 10:33 AM

Dargai (flaming autocorrect)

Subject: RE: Origins: Off She Goes
From: GUEST,GUEST GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 22 - 11:50 AM

I did not say anything other than i preferred to march to marches not slip jigs