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“Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar…
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 06 Dec 24 - 03:57 AM “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: ‘Prepare ye the way of the Gill, make his paths straight.’” |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: John MacKenzie Date: 06 Dec 24 - 04:03 AM Methinks The Sadman doth protest too much, (and too often) |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:04 AM The point i am making is that playing and singing is more important than laying down rules. To quote Martin Carthy" the only damage you can do to a song is not to sing it"the same applies to music ,sing the tunes sing the songs and enjoy yourself ,nothing else matters I am happy , i have good health which enables me to play and sing every day |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,PMB Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:08 AM I think you've missed the point of this thread, Dick. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:13 AM Laying down of rules was a mistake that MacColl made with the singers Club, he was trying to encourage indigenous trad songs, Cyril Tawney Had a better approach he would go up to singers and compliment them on their singing and say I have just found a song that would suit you. laying down of rules is a waste of time |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:18 AM No i have not, good manners whoever you are is a priority.Carthy is a perfect example he would never have done what Dickson did, furthermore this thread was drifted by SteveShaw and i was responding also to the thread drift |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:48 AM Do you know something, I'm enjoying the conversation in this thread. It's been generally lively and civil with different perspectives, disagreements even, discussed in a positive vein. That is, until Dick waded in with his obsessive anti-Gill nonsense. For those here of slightly under a certain age, I'd just like to point out that many years ago on a forum or two, Dick and Michael didn't, er, exactly get on. Michael was rather prone to ridiculing Dick (ironically, in view of what Dick has said, because Michael was of the view that Dick's ego, how shall we say, outweighed Dick's talent. I make no comment...). Dick doesn't like Michael and would rather we didn't talk about him, hence the little barbs. Thing is, this thread is about Sandy Bell's. Michael, a very talented fiddle player as some here have attested to, has been a big part of Sandy Bell's for many years. I haven't been in touch with Michael for a good few years, and I politely asked here whether he still played at Sandy Bell's. I wouldn't call that thread drift, but hey ho. That's the picture, folks. I doubt whether I've said enough to stifle the barbs, but one thing's for sure: if Michael is reading this he'll be laughing his head off. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Dec 24 - 06:06 AM Dick Gaughan visited Bell's at the period BD was talking about - I think they may have shared a flat nearby, along with other folkies? Gaughan stopped going into pubs after then but I don't recall any negative comments from him about the musicians. I'm not often in Edinburgh at the right time to hear Michael playing but might give it a try. Or maybe I could leave a link to this discussion on their noticeboard. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Johnny J Date: 06 Dec 24 - 06:29 AM Sorry for continually "banging on" about this as I often have done on The Session but nowadays, for good or ill, we have all types of sessions and arrangements. They are certainly not all typical of the so called "traditional tune session" nor a singing "Come All Ye". Nor are they always spontaneous which I think is a shame. Many are organised and even a bit contrived and predictable...You can sometimes set your watch by when a particular tune or song gets played. There are also specialist and/or "learning sessions" of which some people here might disapprove. They are not designed to entertain the punters and while many are held in pubs they often take place in separate rooms or when the bar would otherwise have been empty. Jack mentions The Portobello Tap which is one of the most friendly sessions in the area. Everyone is welcome but the general standard of musicianship is usually very good. There is a good mix of music and song. It's not the deliberate intention to "entertain" the customers but most of them usually enjoy what's going on. There is also a "so called" Intermediate session held fortnightly in Leith Depot which is also very welcoming to all players. I say "so called" because most of the music is still of good standard and not particularly slow either. However, this session is self contained in a side room and is not really for the pub customers as such. They would be welcome to come in, of course, but the room tends to be "jam packed" with actual musicians. I enjoy going to both of the above when I can but I also like to try other things too. However, the best sessions I've experienced have usually been unpredicatable and spontaneous in terms of both repertoire and the people involved. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 06 Dec 24 - 10:59 AM I REALLY disagree with the position here attributed to Michael that sessioneers should only be playing for each other. You're betraying the tradition if you don't try to get outsiders interested in it. If you've got an audience, communicate with them." QUOTE I agree with you Jack, performing is about communicating, if you make any kind of an arrangement with a pub you have a duty to communicate, you have entered in to some sort pf contract, If you want to play for yourselves and you want to be exclusive rather than inclusive, do it at home. If you wish to make rules about how the music should be learned apply it only for yourself, everyone has their own way of learning and should be encouraged in whatever way works for them. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,PMB Date: 06 Dec 24 - 11:59 AM Dick, nobody has suggested making rules of any sort. You really are missing the drift of this thread. Starting with wondering why someone didn't like the playing one one particular occasion in one particular pub, we discussed possible reasons for that dislike. We discussed different sorts of playing situations, including mixed song/ music events, sessions reading from music, and solid tune sessions, and how these are different. You've now twice accused somebody of "betraying the tradition" whatever that means. Are you laying claim to superior knowledge of what constitutes "the tradition"? As for one's "own way of learning", that is absolutely right... provided that way of learning doesn't interfere with others' (tacitly perhaps) agreed attempt to create their musical experience. Examples might be setting up music stands in an existing aural- tradition session, playing loudly in a style inimical to the occasion, or insisting that everybody stops what they are doing to listen to you. All of which I'm sure you would never do in a real situation. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 06 Dec 24 - 12:03 PM Maybe just courtesy, spontaneity and an awareness of the situation might sum it all up- the 'folk police' seem to have seriously reduced in numbers, or maybe they just mutter nowadays? This thread set me wondering when the jazz term 'session' came into use in the folk world? In the mid 60s the moveable feast which was the Marsden Rattlers always used the term for impromptu 'trad' (our definition) musical gathering as in 'fancy a session on Saturday? but none of us had a jazz background?? Any thoughts? |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 06 Dec 24 - 12:34 PM As far as I know the term came into use as 'session drinking'. A great session meant many pints werd downned. In time the term became applied to a night of music. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 06 Dec 24 - 12:39 PM Playing music IS communicating, Dick. I'm not clear about what else a bunch of sessioneers has to do in order to fit your "duty to communicate." Beethoven became profoundly deaf yet his late music is one of the greatest communicators in all art. We don't sit in a tight huddle to muffle out our sound. We don't sit in a private back room. We chat to the pub customers in between tune sets. I can't remember a time when we refused to do Wild Rover/ Black Velvet Band/Whiskey in The Jar. We let visitors join in (at our peril occasionally). We do play for ourselves and we don't regard what we do as a public performance. In different settings we had a little band, and in that format, yes, we performed. Weddings, dances, parties and all that. Try to get a handle on what we are saying here, Dick. That would make for a pleasant surprise. And by their fruits and all that... Do you really think that our lovely landlord, so grateful that we enhanced the atmosphere and pulled in lots of custom over almost twenty years, would have plied us with gallons of free beer if all we did was huddle sour-faced in a corner, refusing to talk to anyone outside our little clique? |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,groovy Date: 06 Dec 24 - 12:55 PM The problem is, Steve, that Dick's only really happy when he's playing with himself. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 06 Dec 24 - 12:57 PM Yebbut let's keep the thread alive! |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 06 Dec 24 - 01:03 PM i have not accused anybody of anything PMB.It was Jack who said that Steve,I understand you very clearly, so very politely, i am now off to a music session good night |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 06 Dec 24 - 03:07 PM Don't forget to smile sweetly when you get there, Dick. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,PMB Date: 06 Dec 24 - 04:18 PM From: The Sandman Date: 06 Dec 24 - 10:59 AM I REALLY disagree with the position here attributed to Michael that sessioneers should only be playing for each other. You're betraying the tradition if you don't try to get outsiders interested in it. Sorry, you said it. Just a couple of posts ago, and once before. If you didn't mean it, apologise. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 06 Dec 24 - 04:47 PM Well it was a quote from Jack, though that wasn't perfectly clear. However, Dick did clearly state that he agreed with it. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: John MacKenzie Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:20 PM It's hard to see what's happening down below, from way up there on a high horse. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,PMB Date: 06 Dec 24 - 05:24 PM Apologies, maybe didn't make that quite clear. "You're betraying the tradition" was Mr Miles, alone, in this thread. I'm sorry to have got so far off the conversation. Can somebody rests it please? |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Jack Campin Date: 07 Dec 24 - 06:20 AM Dick can't be bothered quoting in an intelligible way but yes, I wrote that. Whether I wrote what Dick thought I wrote, I wouldn't know. What I had in mind was players who know a ton of tunes and either make no effort to get a listening audience to value them, or huddle together so their backs say it all - "this is our music and not yours". Being in a separate room doesn't make so much of a statement of exclusivity but it's not a setting I see much point in. The only time I've seen Michael playing was before they reorganized the seating in Bell's. Like it or not, he was positioned to be a performer playing to the punters as an audience. And they liked what they heard. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,PMB Date: 07 Dec 24 - 07:05 AM Anyway Jack, what did Aly Bain get barred for? C'mon, a bit of scandal... But on the subject. I think quite a few session players (myself included) have a bit of a phobia about performance which is subsumed into the relative anonymity of a session. Other musicians are an educated audience who know what you are trying to do, even when it doesn't exactly come off. At least in some sessions, applause is not really encouraged, except when someone has done an obvious party- piece. As one player said "Don't clap, just throw money", which come to think of it ought to be the NHS's motto. The players are just setting the atmosphere, like Haydn's at Schloss Esterházy receptions - hey, are we bigheaded or what... In which context, I see no less than Goethe described chamber music as "four rational people conversing". Which makes a session more like "15 nutters squabbling". |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 07 Dec 24 - 11:35 AM "But on the subject. I think quite a few session players (myself included) have a bit of a phobia about performance which is subsumed into the relative anonymity of a session." It's a very good point is that. I'm an untutored harmonica player, reasonably proficient I hope, but I didn't come from much of a musical culture. I was forty before I played anything at all in public. I've played in front of an attentive audience on my own or with a single accompanist many times, but even now I can feel like a fish out of water doing that. I feel much safer surrounded by a few other melody players in a session. I've always tried to single out and listen actively to a strong player to whom I can "latch on." I actually think I play better that way than when I play on my own. Very subjective, of course. In a session I feel like I'm collaborating rather than performing. But we've never cut ourselves off from the pub customers, as I've said before. That's just not us. Incidentally, our sessions were never very big. Double figures were a rarity. I've been to big sessions elsewhere of twenty or more - not keen on that vibe. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 07 Dec 24 - 03:58 PM Jack , I would not have used such a strong term as betrayed but the main essence of what you said, I agree with. A lot of this is appears to be about people own personal performing background , I have spent over 45years performing at folk festivals and clubs and so tend to be thinking about a session and audience appreciation in a particular way. each to their own Jim Bainbridge who used to be a neigbour of mine, wrote somewhere else on this forum, that an irish musician had criticised him and called him an entertainer, Jim said at the time he was happy with that. Playing music is about entertaining, it is for ourselves BUT also for others who are not players. that is my opinion, if you have a different opinion,that is fine, Chacun son goût |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Tattie Bogle Date: 07 Dec 24 - 07:42 PM Well I guess we’ve all been there - those of us that play in sessions that is - those of the spontaneous sort (no set lists,, music stands, sheet music, etc). There’s a wee hiatus between tunes (unusually) so you start into one of your favourite tunes - no, it’s not one that you or a friend just wrote yesterday. It’s one you thought everyone would know - but they don’t! So do you plough on regardless, hoping you’ll get it right, continue what has now become your solo performance, hoping fervently that they’ll all be desperate to know what that tune was and how can they get the dots or a recording of it to learn it, or do you just fizzle out and stop playing, or offer to play something else? Or do you always ask before you play a tune - does anyone know Joe Bloggs’s Old Boots? |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Tattie Bogle Date: 07 Dec 24 - 08:08 PM Back almost on thread: it would be interesting to know what was lamentable about those fiddlers that so irked Barbara? Was it just that they were there, instead of a big bunch of singers singing rousing chorus songs? Was it because, as happened to my friend and I, they were only playing for themselves, and not interested in anyone else coming into the pub, who, heaven forfend, might actually feel like launching into song? Or was it their standard of playing? A large proportion of people who play in sessions are not professional musicians so you do get a bit of a spread of abilities, and some whose self-appraisal exceeds their prowess. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Johnny J Date: 08 Dec 24 - 05:19 AM This thread has become very bizarre and I'm glad Trish has brought it back on track. Yes, I'm surprised at some of the tunes people don't know. This seems to happen at some of the very "regular sessions" where they often play the same tunes "week in, week out". So, it's nice to visit different pubs, places, towns etc and while you may still feel nervous about starting a different tune yourself it's great when someone else plays a lesser known tune that you've gone to the trouble to learn. Re Barbara, I'm feeling more generous to her as time goes on and as I've thought about things. She's obviously just reminiscing re how the pub used to be and probably she'd also have objected to poor singers who burst into song "uninvited" or just presumed that they had the "right to sing" as well. I think her issue is more to do with the fact that it's now an actual *music pub* and her assumption(mistakenly held, I'd argue) that anything goes. Whether or not she doesn't like the music herself, it's never really *bad* or even "lamentable* in Sandy Bells. Most of the time, it's organised and the regular sessioners will moderate things in their usual friendly way... Especially on a Tuesday night. ;-)))) Of course, it may be boring to non players or not one's choice of repertoire but that's a different thing. As I said, there's plenty of other choices in Edinburgh. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Johnny J Date: 08 Dec 24 - 05:29 AM Incidentally, I've just been thinking about the now departed and sadly missed Edinburgh singing duo "Liz and Maggie Cruickshank" who I reckon would have taken a very similar view to Barbara. They weren't that keen on the tunes either but were happy enough for them to exist at the right time and place.. i.e. not to clash with the singing. Also, while they actually encouraged singers and singers they would also be critical of those who were really bad or didn't follow proper etiquette. They knew all about Sandy Bell's too. ;-)) https://youtu.be/ZgnhLpV2-Rk |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Tattie Bogle Date: 09 Dec 24 - 04:58 AM Sadly, I never met Liz, but Maggie Cruickshank was a regular at our local folk club and sessions, and yes, she did have strong views on session etiquette and wasn’t afraid to speak out! Definitely “One singer, one song” - you could join in any choruses, but woe betide anyone who sang along with the verses! |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 09 Dec 24 - 07:18 AM I `ad that Alec McFadden from the Scottish Traditional Society in my cab the the other day. `e was looking well flustered. `is sporran was back to front and `is face was a picture of disgruntlement. I said, "What`s up Al? Tesco`s put the prices up again?" `e said, " No Jim. `ave you seen on Mudcat what that Barbara Dickson said about Sandy Bell`s? Blooming cheek. She doesn`t even play the fiddle" I said, "Yes I read it. She only expressed `er opinion, Nothing wrong with that. Just note and move on." `e said, "No, I think she should be `eld to account and apologise to all the up and coming fiddlers." I said, "What if she doesn`t? You gonna "Cancel" `er. Whaddam I Like??? |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 09 Dec 24 - 03:56 PM For the record, if you think it's relevant in the context of the thread, the incident you refer to, Dick was from a locally eminent uillean piper from Skibbereen. I was playing a pub in Baltimore & played a lovely version of 'St Patrick's Day' I'd heard on Radio Kerry, played by 'King of the Pipers' Leo Rowsome. The piper said I had it wrong(!) so I pointed out the source- no response except to say 'well you're an entertainer, not a traditional musician. Now I've never claimed to be either, nor have I reached the dizzy heights of BD, but surely I can be both, as can she? As for Liz & Maggie- I remember them well, and STILL listen with pleasure to the totally unselfconscious delivery of their songs, collected a few years ago on a posthumous double CD- great girls & always tolerant & sociable- by the way, in the mid 60s there really wasn't much music going on- a fiddle was a rarity-- plenty of singing but I never heard much music in the Forrest Hill Bar as was- lovely veggie restaurant across the road as though- quite a revelation to a bunch of 'meat & two veg' Geordie lads |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 09 Dec 24 - 04:08 PM of course you can be both,Jim, and so you are, and so I am sure BD is |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Tattie Bogle Date: 09 Dec 24 - 04:15 PM Just a wee correction there, Jim, if you don’t mind: the CD was not quite totally posthumous: it was launched in October 2012 while Maggie was still alive, and very proud of it she was. By then she was in a care home after a series of strokes, and sadly died just a few weeks later. Liz had passed away in 1990, but Maggie raised huge sums of money in her memory for cancer charities with her annual fundraising concerts for as long as she was able. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Johnny J Date: 09 Dec 24 - 04:43 PM Another highlight was the Christmas Carol trail around the pubs of The "Old Town" in which both Liz and Maggie were involved in the earlier days. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Dec 24 - 03:51 AM I would guess The World's Room gatherings would be the nearest present day equivalent of the Sandy Bell's that BD remembers? Does she ever go there? |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Date: 10 Dec 24 - 05:07 AM Hello Tattie you're dead right about Maggie- apologies, I'd just forgotten- I stayed at hers before her strokes & she as just as feisty as ever. I did review the CD for Living Tradition so I should have thought a bit harder- thanks for the correction. It was posthumous only in the sense that it was compiled many years after their joint musical activities had stopped. For a taste of the Edinburgh song scene in the old Sandy Bell's see if you can get a copy- I can help if not- some great old songs you never hear nowadays- it even includes a song called the 'Sandy Bell's Man'! |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Johnny J Date: 10 Dec 24 - 06:06 AM Hi Jim, I linked to the song "Sandy Bell's Man" in my earlier post but this was one of the tracks on the live Sandy Bell's album recorded in the seventies. I've got Liz and Maggie's CD too but I'll have to check if it's the same recording of the song(It's the same song, of course). Jack, Barbara would surely enjoy "The World's Room" and she was very familiar with The Waverley Bar back in the day too. She did consider it to be a "Music Pub". I think part of her criticism was based around the fact that The Forest Hill Bar(Bell's) wasn't specifically such back in the day although it "happened" sometimes but only under the right circumstances or if invited! Of course, as we know, all that has changed. Mainly from the seventies onwards but, even then, the music was much more "ancilliary" to the drinking than it is now. ;-)) |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Tattie Bogle Date: 10 Dec 24 - 01:55 PM No probs Jim: while I was looking up the dates for Maggie and Liz, I came across a lovely Flickr album of photos from the CD launch which took place in Maggie's care home. And yes, Maggie was a generous host to many musicians who came to play in Edinburgh, while she was still fit and in her own home. Often heard her sing "Sandy Bell's Man" in our local sessions, and other Edinburgh singers still like to do it as well, and probably most other local songbirds will know the chorus at least. Re "The World's Room" - it's a lovely concept and works very well, but probably far more ordered than BD would remember of Sandy Bell's back then. The guest does a few songs, then those others attending get an opportunity to do a song each: no random jumping in! Mostly unaccompanied singing. The big session at the Waverley now is George Duff's Sunday afternoon, which started a few years back, and is almost a Hall of Fame of Professional and semi-pro musicians and singers, with a mixture of songs and tunes. I think BD would approve of that one, while some of us humbler mortals might just sit and listen rather than try to join in. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST Date: 11 Dec 24 - 09:29 AM as Jim says, a fiddle and a set of tunes was a rarity while now music dominates -maybe that's what Barbara Dickson wasn't keen on? |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,matt milton Date: 13 Dec 24 - 09:56 AM When I was in Edinburgh recently I found the trad music in Sandy Bell's and the other folky pubs near it to be extremely variable. The point is that they have a LOT of music in those pubs. They have weekday afternoon sessions - there's a real demand for live music - it's not just evenings and weekends. Kind of stands to reason that some of it will be hit and miss. Personally I'll take the rough with the smooth. I didn't hear anything terrible though! And heard some pretty impressive musicians too... And actually it was kind of pleasantly reassuring for a born-and-bred London fiddler like myself to be able to hold my own playing Scottish tunes with Scots fiddlers. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: The Sandman Date: 13 Dec 24 - 10:29 AM Matt as you say it must surely be a good thing that there is a lot of trad music to listen to |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST Date: 19 Dec 24 - 05:12 AM 'lamentable' isaof Latin origin & in that language meant sorrowful, awful, deplorable- well don't know about you butI've been to sessions like that |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: Tattie Bogle Date: 26 Dec 24 - 07:26 PM For any visitors to Edinburgh who enquire where to go to hear or play music, I will usually include Sandy Bell’s on the list: and Captains Bar and The Royal Oak are not far away, so if you don’t like one, you can try the others. Some of the other pubs are good too, but not all of them have music every day of the week, whereas these three do. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Rob Mad Jock Wright Date: 26 Dec 24 - 10:44 PM I would prefer a ‘ mixed session’ of songs and tunes to either of one of entirely Lamentable fiddlers or singers , and would prefer anything to those pubs that think everyone wants to watch gormless idiots kick a ball about on a huge screen. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: MaJoC the Filk Date: 27 Dec 24 - 05:13 AM Hear, hear. The game only gets interesting once one of them ("with a fine disregard of the rules") picks up the ball and runs with it. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Rob Mad Jock Wright Date: 27 Dec 24 - 05:48 AM As I read once somewhere... Two rival international football teams are playing and the match is sold out. Those without tickets throng into local hostelries to view the match on the Big Screen. In one pub two groups of rival fans squeeze together and watch the game unfold. The referee makes a contentious decision and a scuffle starts between the two teams. A player is sent off and the game turns with one team now sure of winning instead of losing. The fans are shouting and screaming at the ref , the TV and at each other . A fight breaks out punches are thrown bold is spilt. The police are called and many are arrested or hospitalised, leaving the pub trashed with hundreds of pounds worth of damage. Two rival international Rubgy teams are playing and the match is sold out. Those without tickets throng into local hostelries to view the match. In one pub two rival groups of fans are squeezed together and vie for space to watch the game. The referee make a contentious decision a scuffle breaks out on the pitch, a player is sent off . One team is now sure of winning instead of losing. In the pub the rival supporters shout at the ref, at the TV at each other and then debate the refs decision and at the end of the game all leave some smiling some upset. But all agree to meet up for the rematch. Some addresses are swapped and the offer of accommodation is given. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,Steve Shaw Date: 27 Dec 24 - 07:05 AM So the comparison is between super-fit "gormless idiots" who are playing a highly tactical game requiring a large range of hard-won ball skills and a bunch of mostly massively overweight men charging sickeningly into each other in thick mud like demented bulls... Round here, just a couple of pubs show football on big screens, and by no means all the time, and you have choices. I like football on big screens and I like music sessions and haven't seen any of the conflict that you appear to refer to. |
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Subject: RE: “Lamentable Fiddlers” in Sandy Bell's Bar… From: GUEST,PMB Date: 27 Dec 24 - 11:53 AM I could list a dozen sessions ruined by TV. Including one entire folk festival. But sadly that distinction between roundball and the ellipsoid game is no longer true (if it ever was, universally). Yes; I've walked out of a thrilling Rugby League cup final which was decided on a knife edge, with family beside me, walking to the Wembley tube station with a streaming crowd of tens of thousands of opposing fans, in perfect safety. And I've been in a crowded pub full of opposing football fans, and enjoyed being the man in the middle, (faux-) naively asking each side what was going on. Great fun. And I've seen disgusting fights between drunk rugby fans, and between the foul- mouthed parents of child footballers. Not fun. And if you think rugby players of either code are overweight (certainly since 1996), you don't know the difference between "big" and "fat". To counter- stereotype, it's observable that the balletic skills required of a roundball player includes a convincing Dying Swan. Come to think of it, I've seen fights break out between players or listeners in sessions, but not in Sandy Bell's (perhaps because I've never been there), and certainly not involving actor- singers. |
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