BS: Man's name or woman's name?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 07:44 AM

"Wendy" is supposed to have been picked up by Barrie from a little girl who used it as her way of saying "friend". The more cynical among us may see that as a bit nauseating, but what the hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 07:55 AM

I'm surprised that Rock Chick hasn't posted on this thread - she's definitely female !

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 02:37 PM

Declan, I don't believe an ironclad case for Aine/Aithne and Eithne/Enya names being different names, can honestly be made. While there are some pronounciation variations by dialect (as I pointed out), the linguistic proof that these are, without question, two different names, isn't very strong.

I look to how the names are used today. As you pointed out, the Donegal pronounciation of the names is virtually identical. I have encountered some people in Donegal who believe they are, in fact, different names, and others who believe it is more likely they are the same names, which have grown different spellings (and hence, in some regions, different pronounciations) down through the centuries.

There is no end to the amount of misinformation out there on the "meaning" of a name. My understanding of this female name, is that all it's derivatives in Gaelic, are in fact derivatives of the extremely broad use of the name in Indo-European cultures, from Ireland to India. So perhaps we just need to agree to disagree.

BTW, the online source for Gaelic names that I use (it is the best I've found, which actually isn't saying much, as most Gaelic name websites are crap) is this one:

http://www.behindthename.com/nmc/iri.html

It offers the following derivations:

EDNA (1)   f   Irish, Scottish
Pronounced: ED-na
Anglicized form of EITHNE

EITHNE   f   Irish, Scottish
Pronounced: EN-ya, EN-a
Means "kernel" in Gaelic.

ENA   f   Irish
Anglicized form of EITHNE

ENYA   f   Irish
Pronounced: EN-ya
Anglicized form of EITHNE

ETHNA   f   Irish
Anglicized form of EITHNE

ETHNE   f   Irish
Variant of EITHNE

ETNA   f   Irish
Anglicized form of EITHNE

ÁINE   f   Irish
Means "radiance" in Gaelic.

AITHNE   f   Irish
Variant of EITHNE

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: rock chick
Date: 14 Jan 03 - 06:35 PM

Could it have been me that sent you the business e-mail? Where are you based?

I quite often start of Dear .... and sign Best regards Shelagh, again depending on the contents of the e-mail.

You can always send me a personal message on this site to confirm whether it is me.

By the way it pronounced the same as Sheila and I'm of the female gender.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:12 AM

I am wondering about the use of "Gary" for females. I am told it is quite common in some parts. However, I know of only one female Gary (MacDonald) and of many males that go by Gary. I'm in southern New Brunswick, Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,Bellowbelle
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 07:24 AM

I recall being a bit chagrinned to discover that my there was a guy (or two) named Wendy...my name (I'm female). Wendy, Wendell. So, I started using 'Ms' before my name, more often!

Online, there's been one or two instances where I've thought for days or weeks that I was 'talking' to either a man or a woman (judging by name) that turned out to be the other! So, I've just about mastered the art of 'non-genderized conversation' or whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:43 AM

Perhaps it'd be a bit more of a challenge to find some name that has never been used for a woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 10:11 AM

In light of what brid widder wrote about "Kim", it's as well to point out that the Kim Howells who is drawing critical attention to himself as a minister involved with the PEL issue is in fact male.

(But if you are writing to him to object to his proposed restrictions on live musicians and singers in England and Wales you would best call him Dr Howells anyway, so it doesn't really matter too much.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: SharonA
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

Rock chick:   Hmmm... wouldn't it be a small world indeed if my business correspondence last Friday really had been with you?!? I'll PM the particulars to you right away; please let me know if you are that particular Shelagh! :^)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: C-flat
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 01:59 PM

I wonder what Princess Michael of Kent would have to say on the matter!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: rock chick
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 03:53 PM

Dave Bryant what are you saying !! I know i'm Female with a BIG F, can you say the same with a BIG M?

By the way it's wasn't me, same spelling wrong female.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: JudeL
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 04:10 PM

Huw, it may not have been a common name in tyneside but there were several Huw's in my class at school in south wales.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:33 PM

How about Abby?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 05:44 PM

Thanks to Abbie Hoffman I tend to think of it as male. Does spelling it different make a difference?

I suppose it depends whether you assume it's short for Abraham (one name I don't think has ever been given to a woman, though what do I know?) or Abigail.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Genie
Date: 15 Jan 03 - 08:42 PM

Gervase, I get those SPAM emails about enlarging my penis and keeping it up with Viagra, too -- and my name is Jeanene (a name I've never heard applied to a man)!

Other names I've known to be used for both sexes:
Brooke
Dion
Kim - not uncommon as an Asian male name
Corbett
Cecil
Taylor
Mercedes
Andrea (Usually, Spanish male names end in "o" or "os," and Italian ones in "o," but then there's Andrea Bocelli.)

I've seen both sexes names "Vivian" and "Adrian," (in addition to the variant spellings).


gnu, I've known both men and women named "Cary," as well as "Kerry."


McGrath, you males are so afraid of being called "sissy" or "feminine" that you tend to drop something like a hot potato once it gets known as a "girly" thing. I can't imagine many folks knowingly sticking their sons with historically female names like "Jane," "Linda," "Gloria," "Margaret," "Elizabeth," etc.

("Maria" as a middle name for Catholic boys is a special case, of course.)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 07:33 AM

Genie... er, uh, thanks, I guess. How about "Gary" ?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 09:09 AM

McGrath: Oddly, no, usually, since it's not English, it's a transliteration from Hebrew/Yiddish. Pronounciation does.

But usually Abby is the same as Abbie or Avi with a short a and derives from and is the diminutive of Aba.

Aby or Abie is usually a long a and derives from Abrabam (the root of which is Aba, anyway, you'll notice.)

Means "father." As a kid, my daughter got to call me by my first name, therefore. She also got to introduce me as "This is my aba, Aba." She thought that was very funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:18 AM

GUEST of 11 Jan 03 - 12:23 AM and passim is not only unnecessarily abusive, s/he (s/h/it?) is also wrong.

They are two different names. But the spelling Enya was indeed a marketing decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 10:33 AM

Sure, wrong like saying Catherine and Kathleen are the same names.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Genie
Date: 16 Jan 03 - 03:29 PM

No, gnu, I don't specifically recall knowing a woman named "Gary," but I'm not sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: gnu
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 03:59 PM

So. I guess I can still hold my head up high, knowing that my name is truly manly. (It's a joke... get it ?)

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 04:23 PM

There was an English wrestler named Shirley Crabtree.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jan 03 - 05:23 PM

Huw Lindsay! Interesting how you got your name! My gran was a Crawford.

Another one I don't think I've seen mentioned is Ashley...that lovely male character in Gone With the Wind, but more commonly used as a girl's name. My male orchestra teacher's last name was also Ashley.:-)

And, this just in from the Vatican, for all of you who've been discussing the word "gender." According to Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, director of the Pontifical Council for the Family:

"Gender" no longer indicates a person's sex, "but in international debate is used to indicate radical ideological feminism," the cardinal said.

It seems the Vatican is writing a "glossary on sex terms."

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:14 PM

How about my name

Carroll ...

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Bernard
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 03:47 PM

My daughter is named Deborah - I don't think that's ever been used by a male. My son is Timothy - not used by females as far as I am aware. However, my grandson is Daniel, which becomes Danielle for a girl.

Sidonie is an alternative female spelling for Sydney, and maybe Cindy is a corruption? Haven't checked, only guessing!

I understood 'Kim' was short for 'Kimberley', and the spelling is the same for either sex.

My parents' names are Leslie (father) and Evelyn (mother)...

Johnny Cash... 'A Boy Named Sue'...!!

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 04:24 PM

Carroll is normally a man's name; Carol is normally a woman's name these days, but can be either.

Actually they have different origins - Carroll is an anglicised version of "Cerbhall", which in Irish means "Brave in battle"; Carol is a version of Charles, when it's a male name; but when it's a female name it probably is just a Christmassy sounding name from Christmas Carols. Though how and why it became a female name is a mystery. Except that pretty well any name that sounds pleasant is liable to be used as a woman's name sooner or later.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 05:44 PM

"...defending the Mudcat realm from those who do not share the love for it they do," Never have understood hanging around a place I don't enjoy.

Frankie? McGrath, remember: Frankie and Johnny were lovers...? I remember being confused by that when I was a kid.

I named my rescued-at-the-Humane Society elderly dog 'Darby', mostly because he's on the elegant side and also I have never known anyone/anything named Darby except, of course, Darby and Joan. But a friend tells me she thinks of 'Darby' as being a female name, that she's known two of them, both girls. (??)

My name is Elva and people have told me they think of it as a male name. In my experience, the male name is usually spelled 'Alva', not that I've met all that many of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Helen
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 07:32 PM

Peg,

Morgan is historically a female name - i.e. Morgan le Fay, from the King Arthur stories. Later it was given a Frenchified/Gallicised spelling, Morgaine.

My new kitten (female) is Morgan, because she is black and some people would consider both Morgan le Fay and black cats as evil, but I know better. (So there!    ;->   )

Hrothgar, there used to be a woman called Sioux who worked at Newcastle Regional Art Gallery (NSW, Oz) about 20 years ago.

I agree that mostly in Oz there are spelling differences for Robyn/Robin, Lesley/Leslie, etc. Sydney/Sidonie is fairly unusual as a woman's name in Oz - rather like calling her Washington or London or Cairo, because of the city Sydney, although Sidney or Sydney is common for older men, like my Uncle Sid.

I think that Cindy comes from another name, though, rather than Sydney - maybe Cynthia, Lucinda or even Cinderella?

The young woman who lives in the house behind ours called who two young daughters Page (or Paige?) & Flynn. The mother wants to fly aeroplanes, so Flynn is probably her way of tipping her hat to Flynn of the Inland, i.e. the creator of the Flying Doctor Service in Oz.


Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 08:18 PM

Morgan is the only example I've come across of what I speculated about earlier in the thread - a case where a name that had been historically female (same name as Morrigan, the war goddess) became predominently a male name.

Probably largely thanks to Henry Morgan, the pirate - and of course it was a surname in his case.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Helen
Date: 22 Apr 03 - 09:29 PM

McGrath,

You've reminded me of some female surnames: Brewster, Webster, & Baxter (bakster) i.e. , brew-sister, web (or weave) sister and bake-sister, compared with Brewer, Webber or Weaver, and Baker. The female version of Spinner is not usually used as a surname but formerly as a descriptive but now as a more derogatory word, i.e. spinster. So, if a child was known more as the child of the weaver or brewer or baker, who happened to be a female, when the allocation of surnames occurred then the female word was used rather than the male.

Interesting, huh?

What about the surname "Jane"? There is an Oz tyre company called Bob Jane T-Marts. I look at that surname and wonder where it comes from. Was it also from a female name or does it have a different origin?

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: delphinium
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:56 AM

A few weeks ago I was asked to meet "Annabelle" in the reception area - turned out to be a young man, who said "just call me Annie." His name was really Anibel or Ani, a name that is apparently not uncommon for Cuban males.

Also, here are 2 more examples of females using nicknames usually associated with males: the Canadian author and journalist Stevie Cameron is a woman - I wonder if this is short for Stephanie. And I know a Jeff, originally a Jennifer.

Helen, that IS interesting about the "sister" surnames, never heard that before.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 10:25 AM

Also gamester, huckster and punster - but I gather lobster probably has separate origin.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 12:18 PM

"Dear Sir or Madam, as the case may be:"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 05:01 PM

Re 'Jane':

And don't forget 'Jane's Ships of the World', it's been around a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Apr 03 - 09:12 PM

We have a 'Jane' family locally. And a local woman activist is named 'Sioux' Plummer.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 12:19 AM

And teamster and gangster. It's possible that teamster is a slurred together version of team-master - just my thought, I haven't researched that.

It'd be funny if these tough gangsters who wouldn't want to be seen dead with a feminine sounding name, have been known as "gang-sisters" all this time. (Poetic justice, in the humour department, in my opinion, especially relating to the woman-denigrating gangsta-rappers. Just pause here a moment while I ROTFLMAO!)

There are other names ending with "ster" but they don't necessarily come from the word "sister", e.g. Worcester, McAllister. So "cester" is an anglicised version of the Latin for "castle" (I think, from memory), and I don't know the etymology of McAllister.

Helen

Subject: Helen - going back to '97
From: GUEST,Croí
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 02:57 PM

hi Helen
don't know you from Adam but a friend that I dance with is getting married this June and I was telling her about 'Tabhair Dom do Lámh' for a song and I found a music file and sent it and then went on a search for the lyrics.
came, by way of the convoluted path of web-magic, to your post in '97 !! and I HAD to write because of the first line, there was confusion about the 'strum* the love'....

what it actually is, is the Gaelic form of the title.
from my hearing it at home, it was always
'Give me your hand, 'gus tabhair dom do lámh'

"'gus" being an abbreviation of "agus" - Irish for "and"
"tabhair" - pronounced 'tour' - Irish for "give"
"dom" - pronounced 'dumb' - Irish for "to me"
"do" - 'duh' - Irish for "your"
"lámh" - 'law-iv' - Irish for ..... you guessed it ! ... "hand"

I think this is why you got that 's tru m' 'gus tour dumb' and 'the love' is really 'duh law-iv'

Not sure if you could care less at this point but you know, you never can tell what little thing might always be niggling away at the old brain cells and I thought - just on the offchance - I'd write and put you out of your misery !!

When I get time, I'd like to check back here - seems an interesting
spot !!

anyway, all the best !
go gentle
Croí

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 03:13 PM

And think of those tough Australian blokes drinking Fosters...

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 04:28 PM

Thanks for that info, Helen, really interesting!

Ebbie, there was Darby O'Gill, who was male, from Darby O'Gill and the Little People .

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Beardy
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:22 PM

It's not uncommon to use place names as first names...so Beckham's 'Brooklyn' is not a new idea... however it is still true that some places give their name to boys Clyde, Stanley, Sydney... and some to girls...Beverley, Chelsea, Jordan. Paris is now normally a girls name although it started out as the name of a Greek prince warrior...strange.

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: The O'Meara
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:50 PM

As a kid, I figured Joyce KIlmer, the poet who wrote "Trees" was a girl. When I was in Vietnam, for Christmas my mother sent me a hard-bound book called "101 Famous Poems" with pictures of the poets. I checked to see if Joyce was a looker. "She" was a guy in a WW1 uniform. The caption read "Sgt. Joyce Kilmer, 69th New York, (Irish) killed in action near Ourcy, 1918."
You just can't tell by the name.

Knew a couple in Casper, WY, who were both named Rene. She was Rene', he was Renee. ( Went by his middle name, though.)

Just to settle it once and for all, Enya, Eithne, Aine and Anne are all derived from the ancient Celtic name "Frederick," pronounced "Shay-mus."

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: The O'Meara
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 05:52 PM

BTW, Me darlin' mother was named Marvel. (Really.)

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 07:16 PM

Were you and your sibs her "Marvellettes?" Sorry, I had to ask!**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Helen
Date: 24 Apr 03 - 09:10 PM

Thanks for the info, Croí, on 'Tabhair Dom do Lámh'. I'll have to come clean and tell you that it is most likely that I simply found the lyrics on the Internet somewhere, rather than writing them in myself. I will find the thread you are referring to and copy your comments into that, if that is okay, because the others who have read that thread would also want to read your comments.

The Mudcat community is well worth another visit or six, because the folks here are very friendly and helpful, so we look forward to seeing you here again.

McGrath,

Thanks for that image! All those yobbos drinking Fosters and acting macho and tough!

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST,The O'Meara
Date: 25 Apr 03 - 10:39 AM

Kat: No, but my sibling n' cousin group occasionally called her "Captain." Her mother didn't care for nicknames, so she named her only son Glen, figuring there's no nickname for it. For about 80 years now, he's been known as "Uncle Bud."
    I mention that because of Glenn Close.

O'Meara

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 05 - 11:35 AM

Is " Leslie" a woman or man's name?

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 05 - 11:42 AM

it can be either

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:02 PM

Leslie is often male and Lesley is often female, but in practice it varies as much as Marion/Marian.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:29 PM

I would say it depends on the nature of the business letter. Should it require a very formal approach and you are unsure of the prefix the person prefers, the following is usually acceptable.

Dear Shelagh

Subject: RE: BS: Man's name or woman's name?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 May 05 - 12:35 PM

sorry my post was abbreviated... Dear Shelagh (last name), and from the sound of your letter Dear Shelagh would suffice because they addressed you personally and gave best their regards.