Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 03 - 05:08 PM

Malcolm,

I have used Weston's book in context with any number of literary texts, and it is still quite applicable there. Since we're not talking about the science of all of this, it is also still applicable and in the context of how oaks or Robin Hood or vegetation gods have been viewed over the years. There is a lot of sound comparative research in it (the critic at Amazon who slammed it because she wrote it when she was 70 must be some young fellow who thinks academics turn their brains off at age 65!).

There are other readings of the history of these legends out there, other guesses as to where they come from and what they mean. Other cultures have similar stories and those haven't been touched upon by Weston or Frazer. But I reject the attitude I find so often in academia and elsewhere today that if it isn't a current theory it has no merit. If the text wasn't published in the last 5 years it is out of date and has no worth. That's our Internet speed-of-light approach to everything, as if this current generation sprang fully-formed from the ether 10 years ago. Much of what we know today is because people gave a lot of thought to foundational or related issues a long time ago. The reason we can Google just about everything anyone ever thought about it is because we're posting what someone else from an earlier generation thought and wrote. Weston's research doesn't appear only in T.S. Eliot, she was widely used by many great authors of their day, and continues to influence novelists. Hemingway and Steinbeck and Owens immediately come to mind, and if I thought about it for a while or did a little digging I could come up many others.

There's a difference between "dated" and "unreliable," but its a distinction that needs to be made here. We've posted links from a variety of sources in the various strands of this convoluted thread. The internet links are the most questionable in the context of any discussion like this (and especially where I reside, in academia, where students will slap anything onto the page as authoritative without checking their facts). The problem with links? There is no ranking, anyone can put anything on the Internet. Call me a Luddite, but I still like to find it in a book or a journal, to know that someone else approved the material or that it passed peer review and to see that it had enough merit to make it to the press.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 27 May 03 - 05:17 PM

Not to be a party-pooper, but I have to agree with Guest Q. The connection of the Robin Hood of the ballads to the Green man is pretty tenuous. However, it is likely thathis adoption into the May Games is at least influenced by people's associations of him with green, summer, etc. His appearance, for example, in Hal An Tow and other may songs clearly links him with summer, vegetation, etc. So the association was there, and the question is just how conscious it was in the minds of 15th and 16th century people.

The same goes for the Green Knight, but of course at an earlier time. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight obviously borrows from seasonal mythology, you can't get around it. But those borrowings could signify a connection in people's minds between the Green Knight and pagan gods, or they could simply have come down as narrative conventions from earlier stories that had seasonal meanings. Curiously, if we go with the seasonal interpretation, the Green Knight (although green) is in fact a winter figure, like Arawn Pen Annwfn in Welsh mythology. The Green Man, on the other hand, is a summer figure.

My own suspicion is that the Green Knight was more a matter of narrative convention than ancient mythic meanings, and I suspect the oral tradition of folktales provided the link between older myths and medieval romances. Stories like "The King of Ireland's Son and the King of Green Island" contain many motifs in common with Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and may have provided all the necessary narrative material for the romance without much serious consciousness of the seasonal mythology. On the other hand, SGGK is explicitly a seasonal poem, set on New Year's Day of one year and the period leading up to New Year's Day on the next, so it's pretty obvious that SOME consciousness of the seasonal meanings was operating. It's all a judgement call!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 27 May 03 - 05:41 PM

The old myths are a lot of fun to read, but like much of the bible, one may choose to regard them as just that. Perhaps I was in the sciences too long, but I have a hard time accepting them as more than just good stories.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Susan of DT
Date: 27 May 03 - 07:24 PM

Since the Digital Tradition is a reasonable sized collection of folksongs, it is reasonable to ask the relative frequency of the various trees in the songs in the DT. Results:
    Oak             130
    Ash             48
    Thorn            62
    Elm             12
    Willow          74
    Yew             13
    Maple            19
    Briar            20

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:03 AM

Interesting idea, Susan. I tried pine (but how to sort out the verb, to pine?).
How many maples have to do with syrup?
Oak will certainly hold first place, but oakum and Oak Press must be subtracted. Can the old oaken bucket really count as a tree?
How about tit-willow?
Ash from a cigar and from a fire.

and of course- Yew made me love yew-

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 May 03 - 01:03 AM

And the way Bobert throws around "fir" (for) will skew the count considerably!

I think the Green Knight and Arthur legends are altogether different than the Robin Hood stories. They're much older and have a broader base. To hark back to where I started with this, like Diana, the basis may well be an accumulation of stories (as was suggested) by a conquering Roman culture. The Empire writing back to the center (Rome). In the new world the modern equivalent would be the search for Gran Quivara, Coronado's hunt in the 1520s for a fabled city of gold.

Attis and Adonis are early (many years B.C.) creation stories, the two being vegetation gods (and in conjunction with seasons) and Attis was directly borrowed by christianity (right down to the death--Attis on a pine tree, Christ on a wooden cross). If you can't beat 'em, appropriate 'em. Robin Hood just isn't up to this level of appropriation.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 May 03 - 09:38 AM

To define Robin Hood as an archetype, one of many folk-heros (ie. William Tell, Edric the Wild, Hereward the Wake) whose legends personify certain aspects of the ancient pagan vegetation god of Europe, makes a lot more sense than to see him as some sort of "deity" himself. The very fact that there have been so many viable candidates for a historical Robin lends support to the "archetypal" hypothesis.

The information at this colorful site about the connection between Robin and Herne the Hunter, the Green Man etc. might prove helpful. It's a very enjoyable read, at any rate!

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:28 PM

Susan, great idea to check the DT this way. Lends much more weight to the question.

SRS, I agree with you, with the caveat that the Green Knight legends cannot be proven to be any older than the Robin Hood Legends. If Arthur and Robin were real people, then Arthur himself was much earlier than Robin Hood, and Arthurian legends themselves go back to the ninth century or so in recorded form, but the Robin Hood and Green Knight legends both reached verifiable recorded form in the 14th century, and good evidence suggests they were around for a century or so before that. But the Green Knight does seem to have far more ancient resonances than Robin Hood, and the textual sources of the Green Knight seem far older than those for Robin Hood. The problem with arguing from the age of the textual sources, though, is that the advocates of the "Green man as Robin Hood" theory (I am not one of these) claim many things as textual sources of Robin Hood that you and I would exclude.

Of course, we mustn't forget that the real, historical Jesus actually was crucified on a wooden cross. This must have suggested to Pagan Romans the stories of earlier figures like Attis, making it easier for them to accept Christianity. But it does not prove a direct textual connection between the Gospel stories and pagan myths.

The idea of Robin as an archetypal hero is of course a useful one. Way back, Lord Raglan proposed a checklist of features that an archetypal hero in mythology and legend should have. Robin scores fairly high, but not as high as figures such as Oedipus. Interestingly, Jesus scores fairly high as well!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: selby
Date: 29 May 03 - 01:26 PM

This is such a Bl**** good thread in the old style of mudcat, that I thought it deserved refreshing keep it up.
Keith

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 May 03 - 02:13 PM

Thanks, Keith! I wanted to post these references to the word bower, because they seem to lend support to the theory that Robin Hood and his Merry Men are archetypal folk heros of the "Green Man" genre, rather than historical figures. But I didn't want to flog a dead horse!

The first one is found at the last link I posted above, the "Legends of Robin Hood". It describes Robin's role in the ancient Rites of Beltane, the "Greenwood Marriage" --

"In pre-christian Britain on Beltane Eve, large bonfires were lit on the hilltops, and the community gathered and danced around them. Young couples would sneak away from the festivities, into the shadows and nearby woods to tryst. They would stay out all night, ostensibly gathering hawthorn flowers (the "may" flower) to welcome in the dawn on May Day morn.

In anticipation of these trysts, the young men would prepare a lovers' nest somewhere private, in the nearby woods or countryside. They would make a bower, a crude shelter of branches, decorated with flowers. The folk name for these love nests is "Robin Hood's Bowers". The young couples would make love in these rustic arbours and their unions were sanctioned by the community and referred to as "Greenwood Marriages". Children born of these couplings were considered particularly blessed and known as "Children of the May" or "merrybegots". Some couples chose to make their liaisons more formal and entered into trial marriages at Beltane, becoming handfast for a year and a day. At some of these weddings, a Friar Tuck figure officiated."

And here's a reference to bower being the abode of another mythical being, The Lorelei, or Water Faeries of the Rhine. These are a few verses from a poem about them by Heine --

" …Combing her hair with a golden
    Comb in her rocky bower
She sings the tune of an olden
   Song that has magical power

The boatman has heard; it has bound him
In throes of a strange, wild love;
Blind to the reefs that surround him,
He sees but the vision above.

And lo, hungry waters are springing—
Boat and boatman are gone…
Then silence. And this, with her singing,
The Loreley has done. (Untermeyer 108)"


And all this has inspired me to coin some verse of my own ...

Oh give me the power of a Robin Hood Bower
Nestled snug in a sacred old Oak
But keep me oh please from a sudden demise
At the whim of the Lorelei folk

:>)   daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 30 May 03 - 06:22 AM

Fine ditty, daylia. Unfortunately in Heine's original verses you'll find no bower. Untermeyer has introduced this word because of the rhyme to power.
In the 3. stanza of the original German version the most beautiful virgin is sitting up there wonderfully i.e. on top of the mountain (mentioned in the 2.stanza).

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 30 May 03 - 10:06 AM

Thanks for the clarifying the use of the word bower as a convenience of translation/rhyme in Heine's poem, Wilfried. I thought it indicated that "Bower-dwellers" were legendary beings, (at least when used in this context, not the Dutch farms in the US) or that it related to Q's definition of bower meaning a lady's apartment or boudoir. The latter does fit the story of the Lorelei!

Now, just to be original when rhyming the word, I'll try my verse this way ...

Oh give me an hour in a Robin Hood Bower
Nestled snug in a sacred old Oak
But keep me oh please from a sudden demise
At the bower of the Lorelei folk

:>) that's better!

I found an interesting hypothesis re Robin Hood while researching the Welsh folk hero Edric the Wild and Fenland's Hereward the Wake. Unlike Robin Hood, there is no doubt that either of these two are historical figures. They pre-date Robin Hood by a couple hundred years, living around the time of the Magna Carta in 1066. The author of the articles, New Zealands's University of Waikato English professor Geoff Boxell says this about Robin Hood --

"Few outlaws in other countries have apparently left so powerful a legend as Robin Hood. The nearest parallels are said to be figures on the epic scale who could be transformed into politically conscious national heroes of a type very unlike him. Even if the stories about Robin Hood himself originated in real events of the thirteen-thirties, as has recently been suggested, they could have gained some of their unusual force from association with older stories of heroes who had once resisted foreign invaders. The anomalous social position of the later, legendary Robin might also owe something, as Dr. M. H. Keen suggested, to these older stories. The most famous outlaws of the greenwood before were probably the Old English nobility on their way down and out." (emphasis mine).

The plot thickens! Any opinions out there?

Meanwhile, I came across a particularily intriguing legend about Jesus and Oak trees (!!) yesterday at this site, The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ Using information from the Apocryphal Gospel of Thomas and the 'evidence' in the works of Russian scholar Nicholas Notavitch, who visited Tibet in the 1890's, the author claims that Jesus was widely travelled, possibly visiting both India and the British Isles.

"He may have even travelled as far as the British Isles, for in England there is an ancient oak tree called the "Hallowed Tree" which (says local legend) was planted by Christ himself."

I spent some time trying to find more information about this "Hallowed Tree", to no avail. Does anyone know if it really exists, or where it is located? I'm wondering if it's near Chalice Well ...

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 May 03 - 11:11 AM

Coming Next: Kuan-Yin

(tongue in cheek at our global roamings on this thread. . .)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 30 May 03 - 11:15 AM

Kuan-Yin?!? Cool! I tremble with anticipation ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 30 May 03 - 12:45 PM

Daylia,

The problem in your information from the website on "legends of Robin Hood" is that, not surprisingly, it's a load of codswallop! It takes evidence from the Renaissance and claims that evidence is pre-Christian. But there is no evidence whatsoever that anything in pre-Christian times was called "Robin Hood's Bower."

What happened in the opinion of most scholars was that in the 15th and 16th centuries, the existing ballads and plays of Robin Hood were absorbed into the Mayday tradition of folk plays and dances. This is where the character was combined with Friar Tuck and Maid Marian, who were originally separate characters with no connection to Robin Hood. In the May Games, as they were called, Robin Hood became a central figure, and thus became associated with Mayday and with whatever remnants of Beltaine were still being practiced. This is when "Robin Hood's Bowers" would have come into being. But there is no evidence of either the name Robin Hood or any connection between that name and Mayday before the high middle ages.

Just what evidence the site claims to have that any of this was pre-Christian I don't know. I assume they have no evidence but use the usual squishy historical logic as follows:

Premise 1: "Robin Hood was associated with mayday in the sixteenth century"

Premise 2: "Some aspects of the sixteenth century Mayday celebrations were based on ancient Celtic fire festivals"

Conclusion: Robin Hood was a character worshipped in ancient Celtic fire festivals!

This kind of poor deduction is used all too commonly by bad historians, especially where ancient Celtic lore is concerned!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 30 May 03 - 01:16 PM

I just checked out daylia's link, and they give absolutely no evidence, or even a citation of any scholar's work, to back their claim about "Robin Hood's Bowers." It is, as I said, a false claim, for every historian who has written a book about Robin Hood (and even the re-enactors) find the name first cropping up in the thirteenth century.

It's very telling that the website in question begins with the statement that the search for the mythic Robin Hood has been abandoned by serious scholars. They then go on to say that they themselves consider the mythic Robin Hood more interesting than the historical approach. Then they move to "If we are to assume that the legend of Robin Hood derives in any part from memories of ancient pagan deities, we should examine the mythology of the pagan cultures that once inhabited the British Isles..." and this is the justification for the rest of the site.

This is a classic case of circular logic, either inadverdently inept or intentionally deceitful. It assumes from the outset what it ostensibly attempts to demonstrate, that Robin Hood derives from pagan deities. But it makes that assumption before analysing the evidence, not after.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 30 May 03 - 02:06 PM

" It's very telling that the website in question begins with the statement that the search for the mythic Robin Hood has been abandoned by serious scholars."

Nerd, "serious scholars" obviously have not abandoned the "search for the mythic Robin", as several of the sites linked to above attest.

However, the use of the words "Robin Hood's Bowers" in the high middle ages must have originated somewhere -- perhaps in the local oral traditions of the time?

The colorful and intriguing stories at the "Legends of Robin Hood" site are compelling because they represent one of the present-day contributions to the wealth of enduring folklore surrounding the mysterious -- and powerful! -- character of Robin Hood.      

Geoff Boxell's proposal that the Robin Hood legends are a product/expression of the demise of the old English nobility in the 10-11th centuries is perhaps more scholarly pleasing, and draws almost as colorfully on local folklore (Edric the Wild etc). What did you think of his work?

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 30 May 03 - 03:38 PM

daylia,

Sorry if I sounded grumpy, but I do stand by my point. The only link in the above that would suggest that any serious scholar supports the "mythic Robin Hood" theory is the part that quotes Stephen Knight. But Knight, whose books on Robin Hood I have read more than once, does not believe that Robin Hood is an ancient pagan deity. He believes that Robin is archetypal, that is, that there was no "original" Robin Hood, but that many have "been" or "become" Robin Hood just as many have been "Santa Claus" through "Secret Santa." This is not the same argument at all. The other figure mentioned in that same link is John Matthews. As I've mentioned, he's not considered a serious historian by other historians, and is essentially a spiritual leader in the neo-pagan community; his books are religious speculation, very entertaining but not scholarly. So I would say that there are very very few (if any) qualified historians, folklorists, etc., who would claim that Robin Hood has a deep mythological significance. Most of us would, however, argue that he has a degree of seasonal meaning and shares some features with older pagan figures who also have seasonal meaning.

However, the use of the words "Robin Hood's Bowers" in the high middle ages must have originated somewhere -- perhaps in the local oral traditions of the time?

Granted. That's "of the time," not "of 1200 years before the time." If the names "Robin Hood" and "Robin Hood's Bower" were being used before the coming of Christianity to Britain (in the 300-400s), then there would probably be some evidence of this. (Of course, in pre-Christian times Britons spoke a Celtic language that included neither "Robin" nor "hood" nor "bower," so the argument should really be being made about Saxony, Jutland, etc., but that's a different point). On the other hand, since there's no evidence, why make an argument that this was a feature of pre-Christian British religion unless you have already ASSUMED it, as this website has?

Remember, we are now in the year 2003. That is 500 years after 1503, which is the era when we have evidence of such practices--and even that evidence is sketchy! The era to which the pracitces are being ascribed, then, (pre-Christian Britain) is over twice as distant from 1503 than we are ourselves! Would you argue that because we have certain customs in 2003, they must also have been customary in 1503, without any evidence? How about 1203? That's essentially the argument being made by the website. They're distorting history in a fairly serious manner in order to support the contention that Robin Hood is a survival of an ancient pagan god.

Geoff Boxell's proposal is not originally his idea. Indeed, the quotation you have put in above is actually from Susan Reynolds, not Boxell. Reynolds cites Maurice Keen as her source for the idea. The book that she cites by Keen is from 1981, but as I recall he was already making this argument in the late 1960s. As a result of his and other work, the idea that previous legends about characters like Hereward the Wake and Eustace the Monk became part of the Robin Hood legend is accepted by pretty much all Robin Hood scholars today. However, it would be going too far to claim that the main or most important function of the Robin Hood stories was to protest the dispossession of the Anglo-Saxon nobility. That's a blind alley, because none of the early Robin Hood stories mentions anything about old English nobility, or indeed displays any consciousness of a Saxon/Norman divide a la Errol Flynn. That idea seems to have been added to the Robin Hood Tradition later, and certainly Keen does not make this mistake.

By The Way, the Magna Carta was not 1066; that was the Norman Conquest. The Magna Carta was ratified in 1215, rather soon before the first mentions of Robin Hood begin to appear.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 30 May 03 - 05:34 PM

Even the Celtic legends have no written basis before the eleventh and twelfth centuries. They were handed down by word of mouth. Eleanor Hull, who rewrote the tales in several books ("Cuchulain, The Hound of Ulster," which is a combination of stories from several sources, is one I still have) says that "In the course of centuries of recitation certain changes crept in," but she makes the claim that "in the main they come to us much as they were originally recited."
I am afraid that this says very little for the story tellers, who in all cultures seem to have been extremely inventive, adding to and changing their tales through time. This makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible to make connections of the type suggested by daylia.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 May 03 - 11:10 PM

Nerd and Q: Yes, I agree. This brings us back to the privileged storyteller again. And while the storyteller is privileged to tell the story in their own style or manner, the story itself was often considered communal property. This means there was very little if any "authorship" that went with these stories when they were encountered by scribes, even up until when they first entered the era of the printing press (and it was still pretty squishy for a while!) Weston went to great lengths to describe the earliest sources of her Grail stories--who wrote it down and where he/she (but usually he) got it and what they did with it to somehow prove its legitimacy.

There is a trio of essays by Barthes ("The death of the author"), Derrida ("Structure, sign and play in the discourse of the human sciences"), and Foucault ("What is an author?") that work around the relationship "between text and author" in what Foucault came to call the "valorization" of the author rather than the story itself. It's a relatively recent phenomena, the process of studying "authenticity and attribution" according to who the author was. Lyotard's The Postmodern Condition sums this up nicely (and more clearly than the other three, on some points). The reason I bring this up is to point out that one big reason why it is SO DIFFICULT to find early sources, versions, etc., because these stories rarely were considered to be actually BY an individual, and as such an original work. How would this play itself out in whatever record-keeping was performed?

There are a lot of ideas in today's world that we don't realize would totally stupefy citizens of the world 500 or 1000 years ago or more. Not the obvious things, like the mechanics of how we do things, but simply how we view the world, politics, and most importantly, our philosophy, our attitudes towards what is real, how things work, who owns what, and so forth. Humans have always been resourceful and inventive, but their view of the world has changed drastically through time. (To quote MMario, "well, duh.") The assumptions that scholars make publicly and that go through peer review are generally required to make the strongest arguments possible to stand that examination and only then go on to be published (yeah, I know. . .this isn't perfect either). They use what fragments are available and aim to practice solid extrapolation based upon what facts are known. The trouble with the Internet today, as Nerd has observed, is that clever people with a theory or a story they really want to promote can wrap a theory round itself in such as way as to be credible, but only if one isn't accustomed to looking for the argument to support the theory. Provide a few links to other people who believe the same thing, and you have what appears to be credible support.

We like to research these things online, but only a fraction of what is in books is out there now. I'm impressed with both Nerd and Q's knowledge of the texts on this subject, their clear familiarity with sources and the bibliographic hunt that is required to find out who really thought something the first time. It's this kind of attention to detail that helps keep the information in the DT such a valuable resource.

I'll buy you both a beer next time the Mudcat Tavern is open!

Stilly River Sage

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 03 - 10:38 AM

Hi Folks

not quiet shure wether it fits in at this point of this wonderful and interesting discussion, here's a song about an oaktree I wrote more than 20 years ago

I wrote this one for the band we had at the time wich was called Oaktree.

Come to the Land of the Oaktree by menzze 1980


Once upon a time so far away I was born with no mother or father
Grown with the wind and fed by the sun and the birds and the night and the water
The centuries passed and I arose grewing stronger and stronger and stronger
And here is the story that I have to tell, I can't keep it by myself for no longer

REF
Listen to me, listen to me
I'll show you the land of the Oaktree
Listen to me , listen to me
Come to the land of the Oaktree


In the first days of spring when the air was warm on my branches the first leaves where smiling
Two little children were dancing around my stem and their eyes they were laughing
Laughing and singing they made their way towards a life without hate fear or question
And the wind in the air gave life to my leaves and I sang and I danced along with them

REF

The years passed like months and the children they grew, when summer came I saw two lovers
Walking through a land as sweet as a dream holding hands and kissing geach other
They passed their day s in the dream they had made, he carved her name in my body
Though ages have gone her name is still there, like I still feel their soft love inside me

REF

My leaves turned to brown when the sun on her way reached the time that the people call autumn   
The country lay crying pain raged in it's heart brought to it from a land called Britannia
My two lovers were hungry the november so cold they'd nothing to eat or to live on
The young child they had shook of fear in his dream, saw a landlord was beating an ol' man

REF

spoken
When the wintertime came with frost snow and ice the land buried in dreamless sleeping
A farmer once lover needed wood for his fire to keep his poor family from freezing

He cut down my stem and he cut down my life but I did feel no pain or fear them
The fire itself when it's warming their hearts shows a way to the land of the Oaktree
In that cold winternight when I's dying one by one when my whole life was one by one fading
I gave to my people like all time before I had given to them what they're needing

REF

We've been looking for a symbol representing all "celtic" nations and came up with the oaktree, one of the holy trees of the celts
Hope I did not interrupt you to much and hope you like it
all the best

menzze

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 03:31 PM

refresh

want to see if Daylia will kick Nerd's arse...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 02:40 PM

menzze, thanks for sharing your beautiful song, it's wise and sensitive glimpse into the 'whys' of age-old human reverence for oak trees. The final verse brings to mind all of the other time-honoured legends and traditions surrounding the 'dying God', from Odin to Osiris, from the Oak King slain by the Holly King at Summer Solstice to the gospel stories of Jesus ...

" He cut down my stem and he cut down my life but I did feel no pain or fear them
The fire itself when it's warming their hearts shows a way to the land of the Oaktree
In that cold winternight when I's dying one by one when my whole life was one by one fading
I gave to my people like all time before I had given to them what they're needing"


Wow! And that reminds of the reason Robin Hood made his mysterious and magical way into this thread at all ... because of the traditions surrounding the Major Oak of Sherwood Forest. It is a very interesting "coincidence" (ha ha!) that Robin and his 12 merry men (... gee, how many? TWELVE? sounds so vaguely familiar!! ;>) ...) came to be associated with an ancient oak, the traditional dwelling-place of divinity!

Now I'm off into the local Greenwoods to sit beneath my sheltering old Oak and contemplate how and when to best kick Nerd's arse ... or if indeed such a whoopin is at all necessary! I shall return duly enlightened shortly....

:>)   daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 06:40 PM

Oak-ay, all that came to me while sitting and listening to the rustle of the wind through the oak leaves was this little poem I remember from childhood ...


A wise old owl sat in an oak
The more he saw, the less he spoke
The less he spoke, the more he heard
Why can't we all be like that bird?


Betcha that bird just wouldn't make the grade in a scholarly venue though! Academia's notorious penchant for endless debate as an end in itself (I call it 'twisting the neurons', or 'doing the neuron dance'), as well as intensely competitive (and quite predictably cyclical) criticism doesn't work very well with the wise old discipline of silence. So I'll leave it to the scholars to mince those mysteries right out of the myths, without mercy!

I love silence though, and I do like to practice it.   As an art, it balances my love of music very well! And it's a wonderful way to conserve energy. So, I guess Nerd's arse is safe for now!

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 06:58 PM

Ha! If you can't do it, ridicule it, eh? Keep hammering away with your information, and eventually it might be taken as fact because it has been repeated so much.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 09:49 PM

GUEST, you know absolutely diddley about what I can or cannot do! And you obviously can't tell whether or not I'm actively engaged in ridicule, either.

Tell me, would you stand under an Oak tree during a thunderstorm?

Would you do it on a hilltop, surrounded by sacred stones???

;>)    daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 09:57 PM

Holding up Launcelot's sword?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 12:27 AM

Whew! My Arse is safe from Daylia!

The only thing I'll say about Daylia's comment that scholars "mince those mysteries right out of the myths, without mercy" is that myths can be believed or studied objectively, but if you believe them it might compromise your objectivity. People who hold Pagan beliefs, for example, are often more interested in what the myths mean to them than what the texts of the myths actually say. They read meanings into stories instead of reading meanings out of stories.

To give an example, daylia thinks it's cool that Robin Hood has twelve merry men, because this resonates with the religious character of the "Robin Hood as pagan god" theory. Unfortunately, Robin doesn't have twelve merry men, at least not in the ballads I know. He has a horde. In Robin Hood and the Bishop of Hereford, for example, he has at least seventy-six men; he takes six with him at the outset, and later summons three score and ten.

If you want to count only the "inner circle" of merry men whose names are mentioned, you still won't get to twelve. Some have stretched it to eleven, but they're including Marian and Tuck, who are not merry men, and also some characters who either aren't separate characters or aren't in Robin's band, like Allen-a-Dale.

So nowhere does he actually have twelve merry men. Where did this idea come from? From the neo-paganist historian Margaret Murray, who was intrigued with the religious overtones she perceived in Robin Hood and apparently made up the "rule" that Robin had twelve companions. Even other people convinced of Robin's deep mythological character have debunked this one, including the aforementioned John Matthews, who wrote:

"despite Margaret Murray's statement that Robin was always accompanied by thirteen (sic--he means thirteen including Robin, as the next sentence will make clear) companions, the number in fact varies from 7 to 150, never twice being the same...The notion that, together with Robin, they were a band of thirteen, in keeping with other heroic groups and with the supposed witches coven, is therefore unlikely."

Matthews here tempers his belief in all things pagan with scholarship.

While the scholarly approach may be sadly lacking in evocative drama, it has the virtue of at least attempting to be accurate. It's easy to just declare that Robin Hood parallels religious figures and make up some reasons why, but it's hard to support that with any good evidence.

I should say that I'm not against people in the pagan community creating their own beliefs and practices using the materials of folklore and myth; that's their absolute right and it can yield beautiful results. But it's quite another thing to come back and claim that the beliefs you invented constitute the original meaning of Robin Hood! That way lies madness, as wise neo-pagans have realized.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 02:43 AM

Nerd,

First, in General: Good to see the thread survived the shutdown, though perhaps not so smoothly the visitation of a guest. (There may have been a Mudcat ripple effect--my connection died for a couple of days also!)

Your last example reminds me of popular lists enumerating erroneous relationships: an example would be the sort of thing generated to compare Abraham Lincoln and John F. Kennedy (i.e. "Kennedy's assassin shot him from a warehouse and hid in a theater; Lincoln's assassin shot him in a theater and hid in a warehouse"). I don't remember the exact quote, and there is a list of similar items, all along those lines. Coincidence shouldn't be confused with fact, though it is a seductive avenue to follow. Like numerology and astrology, they're practiced and popular because they tell people things they want to hear, but don't necessarily speak what anyone else would consider "truth." The audience is so local as to be just one.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 09:37 AM

Just to be clear, I agree wholeheartedly with Nerd ie. " ... myths can be believed or studied objectively, but if you believe them it might compromise your objectivity. People who hold Pagan beliefs, for example, are often more interested in what the myths mean to them than what the texts of the myths actually say. They read meanings into stories instead of reading meanings out of stories."

People who try to extract 'facts' from myths and traditions obscured by both time and language barriers are venturing onto quite the shakey limb, whether they are scholars, spiritual 'seekers', singers, sonwriters or whatever! The character of Robin Hood has proven very slippery when it comes to pinning any type of 'fact'on him --- even a date that's accurate within a century or two. And I'm grateful for that! That's part of the endearing mystery of the legends - (at least, the mystery is endearing to me!) I've no desire to mince the mystery out of any of the myths about him -- they are all entertaining, inspiring and valuable in their own way.

So what do I 'believe' about Robin? Not much at all, except as I said before, "To define Robin Hood as an archetype, one of many folk-heros (ie. William Tell, Edric the Wild, Hereward the Wake) whose legends personify certain aspects of the ancient pagan vegetation god of Europe, makes a lot more sense than to see him as some sort of "deity" himself. The very fact that there have been so many viable candidates for a historical Robin lends support to the "archetypal" hypothesis."

I posted the link that Nerd and SRS take such exception to, "The Legends of Robin Hood" because it is just that, a collection of legends -- a colorful and enjoyable example of one of the 20th century contributions to the enduring legacy of folklore and myth surrounding Robin. That this "slant" towards identifying him as a pagan diety is now hotly disputed by scholars is no surprise. Trying to prove Robin a "pagan god" is an undertaking first rooted in the scholarly community of the 19th and early 20th centuries, after all, and scholarly opinion is, quite predictably, cyclical in nature.

A hundred years from now, historians and scholars may find the "deification" of Robin by some (not all!) 20th century neo-pagans/scholars to be this era's most significant and enduring contribution to the Robin Hood legacy. That's why I posted the link! If interpreting the stories this way pleases people, helps them connect with/understand their so-called "Celtic roots" and walk more gently on the Earth their mother so to speak, and it harms no-one, then I don't see that it presents much of a problem --- except that it gets the scholars hot under the collar. But then again, isn't that what scholars are for???   ;>)

It seems I've heard the story of 12 merry men from a variety of secular sources all of my life, and it's just that, to me --- an interesting story! A story which some people find creatively and spiritually inspiring even today. Isn't that the reason humans create folklore in the first place?

I wonder ... if everyone's minds were restricted in the scholarly fashion, no-one daring to express an original opinion or idea or belief without also providing "... a few links to other people who believe the same thing, and you have what appears to be credible support." as decreed by SRS above, how much folklore would there be left to enjoy??? Would the stories even get off the ground in the first place? What would happen to the faculty of creative imagination? Original thinking, if a idea must be first proven to be held by others to be credible? These are the tenets of academia of course, but do they work very well in everyday life?

So many questions, so little time ... and the Robin on my roof this morning told me he'd buy me a beer at the Mudcat Tavern when I'm finished planting my lilac trees today. Seems he's got a bit of a bone to pick with a Catter or two ...   ;>)

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 10:04 AM

PS -- I've been trying to find more information about the "Hallowed Oak" said to have been planted in England by Jesus, but the only reference I've found to date regarding Jesus' alleged visit to the British Isles is in the first verse of this poem by William Blake:

"Jerusalem

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?

And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold!
Bring me my Arrows of desire!
Bring me my Spear! O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land."


But nothing about a "Hallowed Oak"! I may have the opportunity to visit England next year, and this tree is one I'd like to see, if it exists at all! If anyone has more info, I'd really appreciate it.

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 10:38 AM

Daylia, we've been down this path before. If you post questionable or bogus links with faulty logic or poor citations in an academic sort of discussion, be prepared to have people argue about them. Don't keep pushing the bad scholarship at people as if it has merit. If you think it has merit and it just doesn't show, then find good solid support and post it.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 01:54 PM

Hallowed Oak - Planted by Jesus - Could this be a corruption of the legend of "Joseph of Arimathea" visting Glastonbury and planting his staff which grew into the Holy Oak ?

Click 'Ere

and Click 'Ere for a little more on the history of Glastonbury.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 03:05 PM

Yes, SRS, this is a tired old road we're walking! To clarify this for you once again, I presented the "Legends of Robin Hood" site here, not as some sort of declaration of "fact" -- no-one has been able to do that yet about Robin! -- but as a colorful, interesting and entertaining example of the present-day contributions to the legend of Robin Hood.   

There are plenty of similiar sites on the net, but none were as artistically pleasing and well-written as the one I posted. However, just because there's a plethora of similiar information around, that doesn't make any of it true now, does it?

Perhaps it is dangerous, after all, to present innocent people with a variety of different ideas/opinions/perspectives during a discussion, and expect them to be able to think things through for themselves!   Maybe next time I'd like to post a link, I'll PM it to you first, for your critical analysis, approval and written consent, in the best interests of the Cat, okay?

Gareth, thanks for the links re Joseph of Arimathea. My original hunch was that this "Hallowed Oak", if it existed, had something to do with the legends of Glastonbury and Chalice Well. The lid of that Well is said to be hewn of oak, carved with the symbol of a fish. I'll go over the links in more detail later ... need to finish my gardening now before it thunderstorms!

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Gareth
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 04:32 PM

And don't forget the Boscable (SP) or "Royal Oak" where Charles II hid from the roundheads. A descendent of this tree is said to survive.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 10:22 PM

daylia, I appreciate what you say and I think the two of us are not so far apart. However, I do think you're trying to have it both ways just a little. For example, when you wrote:

It is a very interesting "coincidence" (ha ha!) that Robin and his 12 merry men (... gee, how many? TWELVE? sounds so vaguely familiar!! ;>) ...) came to be associated with an ancient oak, the traditional dwelling-place of divinity!

it sounds as if you are laughing at scholars for saying this association between Robin and a certain oak tree is just a coincidence, when something so obvious as Robin's TWELVE merry men is not being recognized as significant.

My point isn't that it's coincidental, quite the opposite. My point is that a lot of this stuff, including the twelve merry men and quite probably the association with an oak tree, has been made up purposely to make Robin Hood look more like a pagan god. I'm not saying that this kind of invention isn't worthwhile, just that we have to keep it separate from our ideas about what Robin Hood texts have meant in the past.

Just as "Robin Hood's Bower" could not possibly have had the same meaning in Pagan Britain as it did in 1550, few of the pagan associations with Robin Hood predate the neo-Pagan movement. They have been invented in relatively modern times. There's nothing wrong with that, but the website is trying to claim that these are old, original meanings. It is, in other words, either misleading or misinformed. It seems in some cases that you are making similar arguments, though I may have misunderstood you.

You also misunderstood me. You have taken my description of scholars "reading meanings out of stories" to mean looking for facts. I didn't say facts, I said meanings. It is important, though, to attend to what legends actually say before you try to interperet what the meanings might have been at any given moment. If the scholarly way, of trying to say "this legend seems to have meant this at this particular time" seems boring to you, that's obviously your right. But you'll have to understand that the alternate approach, "this is what this legend means to daylia and/or Nerd right now" might be equally boring and insignificant to others.

Your statement

if everyone's minds were restricted in the scholarly fashion, no-one daring to express an original opinion or idea or belief without also providing "... a few links to other people who believe the same thing, and you have what appears to be credible support." as decreed by SRS above, how much folklore would there be left to enjoy??? Would the stories even get off the ground in the first place? What would happen to the faculty of creative imagination? Original thinking, if a idea must be first proven to be held by others to be credible? These are the tenets of academia of course, but do they work very well in everyday life?

shows that you have limited respect for academia, but also that you have limited understanding of it. It is a requirement in academic research that you express original opinions that no one has expressed before. You don't want ideas that are already held by others, you want ones that will be held by others after they've read your analysis. If you send an article to be published and the ideas in it are already out there, the journal will turn you down. On the other hand, if your interpretations don't square with facts, they'll also turn you down. Credibility in context, not adherence to a party line, is what gets Humanities research published.

I would actually recommend that you read some scholarship on Robin Hood; it's far more entertaining than you might think. One recent anthology has articles examining how medieval Robin Hood stories employ mercantile ideologies rooted in the rising middle classes; how Robin Hood ballads portray female cross-dressing and what this might mean about gender images in the middle ages; the importance of Ivanhoe as a transitional text between two very different conceptions of Robin Hood; an analysis of how Robin Hood is turned into a theme park attraction in contemporary Nottingham; a study of the use of the Robin Hood legend in the creation of the Comic Book character Green Arrow; and many other papers covering film, literature and even pagan gods.   

Scholarship is not at all the dull, dry, boring and limited place you seem to think it is. The only restriction is that people analyse the legend as it has existed in the world, rather than making up a new legend they like better. There's value in the latter; Robin McKinley and Parke Godwin have both reimagined Robin Hood beautifully. But it's a different kind of value, and the two should not be mistaken for one another. The web site you posted mistakes creative invention for historical interpretation, and that's why people here objected to it.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage, sans a cookie
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 01:44 AM

Thanks, Nerd. My access to the web is limited until Southwestern Bell gets their lines in order after several rainy days. With my slow laptop and the old dialup modem, it's catch as catch can, and you said what I would have, but with more patience, and with some good reading recommendations as well.

Ah, the humanities. A master's in English wasn't enough, I pursued one in Philosophy also. Advisors in each field thought the other was less in the ivory tower. Ha!

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 09:48 AM

Nerd, thanks for taking the time to explain the procedures of academia
so well, and for choosing your words carefully to avoid sounding arrogant, demeaning and pompous. ie -- "It is a requirement in academic research that you express original opinions that no one has expressed before. You don't want ideas that are already held by others, you want ones that will be held by others after they've read your analysis. If you send an article to be published and the ideas in it are already out there, the journal will turn you down. On the other hand, if your interpretations don't square with facts, they'll also turn you down. Credibility in context, not adherence to a party line, is what gets Humanities research published." Amen to that!

Actually, I don't think we disagree about much here at all, except that I really can still enjoy an article or a viewpoint, even if the scholarship is less than pristine. That, however, does not mean that I'm confused about the facts of the matter!

While the scholars argue about the elusive "facts" behind the Robin Hood legends -- if indeed any such "facts" ever existed! -- perhaps the greatest and only "fact" is that the legends do exist, and that they evolve over time, reflecting the ever-changing social conditions, the needs/desires of the people who love them. That certain C20 neo-pagans/scholars have come to deify Robin, even to the point of creating a new spiritual movement through their interpetation of the legends, is a great "fact" in and of itself! One that will no doubt continue to interest and influence many generations of scholars, historians and seekers to come.

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 02:30 PM

Agreed, daylia. Thanks for the response. As I said, I don't think we're so far apart in principle, but God (or in this case, Oak) is in the details.

SRS, I like the analogy with the Lincoln/Kennedy parallels. That's another case of very selectively presenting some facts, and inventing some others, in order to make it look like there are parallels; it's very similar to what the Robin Hood as Pagan God crowd often does.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 03:16 PM

The Anglian Gardener website (daylia) seems to have fakelore by the bushel. The nonsense about driving a nail into the tooth or gum and then putting the nail into an oak tree, in the 18th century, is an example.
In 1685, Charles Allen published "The Operator for the Teeth," outlining extractions, etc. in English. An article in the official journal of the DASA (Dental Assn. South Af.), "An Outline of Dental History," is a good, brief summary. Paré was performing extractions in France (Court medicine) in the 16th century.
Porcelain false teeth that worked are described in a book by N. D. de Chemant, 1779, "A Dissertation on Artificial Teeth." Edward Jenner, who discovered vaccination, was one who used his teeth, and wrote a testimonial.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 09:58 PM

Q, the folklore regarding oak trees, nails and toothaches certainly isn't "fakelore" according to my own dentist! He got the whole office laughing when I asked him about it last week -- kept calling out to his assistant for a hammer and more nails. The humour made the 90 minutes on that chair -- and thank heavens for the modern dentist chair -- a lot easier to take. I've sure liked him a lot better since I found that out!

Here's another source of the same information, an article by Rev. A. R. V. Daubeney, M.A. of Feltwell Parish in S. West Norfolk describing local history. Scroll down to his entry about Oak Street --

"Oak trees planted at the junction of roads, like the Feltwell oak, were much resorted to, in by-gone days, by people suffering from ague; it was supposed that the complaint could be transferred to the tree and probably a nail was then driven in. An ancient cure for toothache was to drive a nail into an oak tree, and strange as it may seem, it was firmly believed that, by this means, the pain could be conveyed from the tooth into the tree."

Of course, finding the same info on a few different sites and knowing that my own dentist is familiar with this old folk-remedy still doesn't make it the f-oaking truth now, does it? I still need the final verdict from SRS!! ;>)

Gareth, the Holy Tree at Glastonbury Abbey is a Thorn, not an oak, according to the links you gave and a few others I've found since. According to legend, it sprang from the staff of Joseph of Arimathea, and bloomed every year at Christmas and at Easter, which is very unusual for a thorn tree. Slips were taken from the original tree before it was destroyed many centuries ago, and apparently the tree's progeny still bloom at Christmas and Easter. They are in the gardens around Chalice Well.

I found a beautiful site with a "virtual tour" of Chalice Well, pictures of the oaken bower (pergola) at the entrance to the gardens, the Well itself with it's oaken cover, and lovely pictures of the "Holy Thorn" trees. Click here for the entrance to the virtual tour (takes a minute for the java scripting to load), and here    for the pictures of the "Holy Thorn" and a bit more info about the trees.

Enjoy!   daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 10:16 PM

:>) Nerd, I just saw your last post. Just figures God ... oops, Oak! ... is lurking around here someplace. Probably trying to figure out how He could get a makeover, to look more like that gorgeous hunk of manhood found at the opening 'click' of the "Legends of Robin Hood" site ... yumyumyum ...

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 09 Jun 03 - 11:00 PM

Daubeney's interesting little local history makes no claim that "toothache nails" were used in the 18th century, but incidentally mentions that there was an ancient belief that it was a cure for ague and toothache, in his discussion of an oak that he believes could be over 500 years old.
This story is mentioned in several works (where, first?). I could well believe that some ignorant medieval peasants might believe this, but 18th century? No, no.

Oak is Kao spelled backwards, which means high in Chinese. Re-arrange the letters and you have koa, also a large tree. Hmmm, is there a connection? Not too far-fetched for some, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: AKS
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:33 AM

oka (Fin) = thorn, barb; now what about that;-)?

In Finnish lore the oak (tammi is mentioned to be God's tree (the rowan being the holy one), but in the "beginning" it behaves badly by growing too high, stopping the clouds and hiding the moon and the sun, so the whole process of creation is delayed. And, as it turns out, no human can cut it down, so the sea folk are asked to come to help. Up comes a man, a thumb long in size, but he grows to be a giant in brass armour and by three strikes of his brass axe the job is finished. Those who managed - or dared - to collect leaves, twigs or any parts of the grand oak, became blessed or lucky or whatever positive. Some splinters drifted across the sea to the North (the stead of the bad guys) and were there exploited in witchery practices.

Presently, the oak is merely a rarity here, because the summer tends to be a bit too short for it, but the bog and lake sediments show that it has been rather common - as has the hazel - some 3000-5000 y's ago.

AKS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:59 AM

Hmmm, Oak ... Kao ... koa ... oka .... okay Q, you may be right about the dates re the "toothache nails", I don't know. I didn't discuss the date with my dentist, either -- had a few other things on my mind, like pain!

But here's an article from the American Medical Association, describing a similiar, if slightly more bizarre remedy used by American pioneers on the Western frontier in the 1800's ...

"To cure a toothache, pick the tooth with a coffin nail, the middle toe of an owl, a needle used to make a shroud, or a splinter from a tree struck by lightening; apply the juice of the "toothache plant" (prickly ash), pack the tooth with cotton soaked in oil of cloves, rub it with sumac (poison oak) gum; then chew the root of a thistle." Egads!

And here's another reference, giving more info specifically about medicinal uses of oak in folklore, but again not mentioning specific dates.

"Folkloristic medicine made widespread use of various trees, not so much as remedies, but for the purpose of transferring the evil spirits of disease from the sufferer to a strong healthy tree, which seemed much better equipped to cope with it. The practice is known as 'transfer magic'. A variety of rituals were associated with this custom and all of them involved reciting certain spells, which caused the disease spirit to take leave from the body and take up residence with the tree.

Oaks, as the strongest of all the trees, were deemed effective against many different kinds of affliction, among them were gout, fever, toothache, headache and even broken bones. Sometimes bits of the sufferer's garment, some hair or fingernails were plugged into the tree with the help of nails (often coffin-nails), thereby banning the disease daemon into the wood."

Warning: the last article is by one of those "new-age" herbalists, though. No doubt some folk here will write it off as garbage on that basis alone.

I've got a few more references, but I'm sure they'll all be p'd upon anyway. So, I'm foaking off now. Please forward any complaints to my lawyer!

;>)   daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 10:54 AM

Just to add a little more confusion to the debate, the Royal Oak was sometimes known as the "Hallowed" Oak.

Click 'Ere
&
Click 'Ere

Gareth

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 12:20 PM

Geez.

Of course, finding the same info on a few different sites and knowing that my own dentist is familiar with this old folk-remedy still doesn't make it the f-oaking truth now, does it? I still need the final verdict from SRS!! ;>)

Every single link on this page:http://www.feltwellnorfolk.freeserve.co.uk/written/feltwell_parish.htm
is generated from this Internet Provider: http://www.feltwellnorfolk.freeserve.co.uk/. There are no external links, no references to anything except itself as source. That makes it an unreliable resource. Is this the type of analysis you were looking for from me? I wouldn't use this site to justify anything I was trying to support in an academic argument because it isn't constructed in a way to show where its information comes from. It's personal opinion, and as opinion, has a validity all its own. But it must be recognized for what it is.

My modem won't be restored until late in the week (a new one is coming since the first one was pronounced dead by the DSL tech). Circular logic and fuzzy thinking are never going to be suitable for academic discourse unless the discourse is focusing on circular logic and fuzzy thinking. If I'm at work on the LAN I'll answer questions, but I'm not going to waste my time at home on a slow dialup connecting trying to spell out what makes questionable information sources questionable. I suggest rereading previous posts where this has been discussed before. Nerd and Q have spelled it out here very well. My conclusion? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 12:28 PM

Don't forget the other Oak Anagram:

any interpretation is A-OK! (groan)!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 12:44 PM

SRS, I was joking about the verdict. To clarify that for you, from Merriam Webster's on-line dictionary:

"Main Entry: joke
Pronunciation: 'jOk
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin jocus; perhaps akin to Old High German gehan to say, Sanskrit yAcati he asks
Date: 1670

1 a : something said or done to provoke laughter; especially : a brief oral narrative with a climactic humorous twist
b (1) : the humorous or ridiculous element in something
(2) : an instance of jesting : KIDDING c : PRACTICAL JOKE d : LAUGHINGSTOCK

2 : something not to be taken seriously : a trifling matter"


But, thanks anyway for issuing it so quickly. And on such a slow connection, too! Very commendable.

Shall we email the Reverend and tell him what unsubstantiated garbage his work is? Perhaps criminal charges would be in order! Maybe a public hanging could be arranged, complete with a 'drawn and quartered' encore. At the very least, to be forever blacklisted from the library of the venerable and highly esteemed Mudcat scholars and saints would seem to be in order!

daylia



PS -- that last paragraph is also a joke. See above for a precise definition.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 12:47 PM

Nerd, there's a KOA Kampground near my home, and there's OAK Trees on site too! I've even seen a couple Robins flying about there! What a coincidence!! Maybe I'll start a whole new religion about it ...