BS: why do we need religion

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:12 AM

Why Religion?

Get a copy of "Salmon Of Doubt"... the poshumous Douglas Adams book, and read the chapter entitled "Is There An Artificial God" for what I think has to be one of the best answers to the question....

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:18 AM

We need religion because:

(a) We're all scared about the big unknown DEATH.

(b) Our complicated brain chemistry plays all sorts of strange tricks on us.

(c) We're all subject to random events which we can't control.

Long ago some genius realised that he/she could pretend to intercede, on our behalf, with some supernatural being(s)who 'really' controlled these things. This genius could then rake off more than his/her fair share of his/her society's surplus wealth without actually doing very much. Hence 'Organised Religion' was born.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 07:44 PM

What we all need is merely this: something to believe in.

It may or may not fall within the category termed "religion".

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 10:46 PM

We don't "need" it. But it might represent objective truth -- maybe not all in one neat package, maybe not any one religion alone.

The "need" is to understand our world without dismissing what we don't understand. Some would like to believe that religion is the avoidance of facing what we don't understand. That may be so. It certainly would appera that way in some cases.

But it might also be that dismissing all religion on the basis of either one religion's weakness to address mysteries that matter to one, or on the basis that one religion is the same as any other, is faulty logic.

It's like looking at asprin's ineffectiveness on cancer and concluding, "why do we need medicine?"

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:23 PM

Wisely said, John Hardly.

I think despite the many wonders of advancement made into analyzing which areas light up when and how, and into biochemistry, and into emerging systems and the nature of complexity, we STILL cannot explain the simple miracle of a truly intended "Hello".

There is still more to the universe than all our philosophy to date.

Just ask Little Hawk! :)

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:30 AM

"...The interviewer, Mr. Assayas, begins by asking Bono, Doesn't he think "appalling things" happen when people become religious? Bono counters, "It's a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the Universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma."

The interviewer asks, What's that? "At the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics—in physical laws—every action is met by an equal or an opposite one," explains Bono. "And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that. . . . Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid stuff."

The interviewer asks, Like what? "That's between me and God. But I'd be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge," says Bono. "It doesn't excuse my mistakes, but I'm holding out for Grace. I'm holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity."

Then the interviewer marvels, "The Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could believe in that."

"The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death," replies Bono. "It's not our own good works that get us through the gates of Heaven."

The interviewer marvels some more: "That's a great idea, no denying it. Such great hope is wonderful, even though it's close to lunacy, in my view. Christ has His rank among the world's great thinkers. But Son of God, isn't that farfetched?"

Bono comes back, "Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: He was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn't allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook. Christ says, No. I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying I'm a prophet. I'm saying: 'I'm the Messiah.' I'm saying: 'I am God incarnate.' . . . So what you're left with is either Christ was who He said He was—the Messiah—or a complete nutcase. . . . The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me that's farfetched."

What is most interesting in this exchange is the reaction of the interviewer. This hip rock journalist starts by scorning what he thinks is Christianity. But it is as if he had never heard of grace, the atonement, the deity of Christ, the gospel. And he probably hadn't. But when he hears what Christianity is actually all about, he is amazed.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:31 PM

Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z

To those who get their intellectual ego jollies trying to disprove everything they don't already believe in:

Look, why not just leave other people alone? If their beliefs aren't doing any harm to you or anyone else, what difference does it make whether or not they believe what YOU happen to believe?

Who put you in charge of the Universe, anyway?

My belief in karma, reincarnation, and a number of other spiritual things like that does no harm to anyone. Just go away if you don't like it. Bug somebody else. Screw off. Make like a tree and leave. Etc.

Can you tell I'm just a wee bit fed up with all this endless shit this morning?

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:38 PM

So I take it you're not a big Bono/U2 fan? :^)

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:51 PM

I just typed out a lengthy reply, sent it, and it vanished into thin air.

Great.

I like their music fine, to put it briefly, and I am unconcerned about what Bono believes. That's up to him.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:01 PM

Has anyone read this book: God without religion? Here are a couple of paragraphs from that link:

What led you to write God Without Religion?

After living as an ascetic for nearly two decades, engaging day and night in sophisticated methods of sense-introversion, and eventually coming to an inner understanding of how the human sense of identity manifests, I felt burdened by my discovery and needed to share what I'd found. I wanted to help people by demonstrating how the ideas of God introduced by organized religions have propagated divisiveness through split-level thinking like "us and them," "believer and infidel," and "saved and damned," leading to prejudice, violence, and ultimately, war. I wrote God Without Religion to introduce the idea of a universal God-a concept approached by past philosophers and mystics, but never explored comprehensively from the inside out.

- top -

Do you think the average American can relate to a book that challenges the religious bedrock on which this country was founded? Whom do you perceive to be your readership?

Americans are often taught that this country is founded on religious beliefs, but many Founding Fathers, like Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson, actually opposed organized belief systems. Jefferson said that he inwardly swore "eternal hostility" toward organized religions. Lincoln, widely considered the most spiritual United States president, admitted during his campaign that he'd never joined a church. God Without Religion seeks to inspire a personal involvement with a new idea of God and is intended for anyone interested in spiritual growth, regardless of religious, cultural, or political affiliation. Atheists, too, can benefit from this book.

It sounds interesting.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:02 PM

I like Bono...a lot! I'm not sure I've ever heard it said better.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:35 PM

The world -- meaning, each individual in the world -- is quite capable of taking away its own sins and being free from their burden. But it requires a level of willingness to see them and acknowledge them.

Without that willingness, they just get dramatized.

Invoking some Higher Being to jump in and tell you it is okay is only a marginal remedy, because whiile it may relieve some short-term pressure, it leaves you with your self-defined gap between what you have done and what you are willing to face honestly.

Given clean hands born of that level of honesty, one is quite able to be the source of his own forgiveness in the world without any pointy hats being called into play.

I do apologize if this collides with anyone's articles of faith, but it is what I have seen in sixty years of observation of the ways of life on this eccentric ball.

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:41 PM

" If their beliefs aren't doing any harm to you or anyone else,"

well, Little Hawk, I see your irritation, but that's a big 'if'. Unfortunately, what some people believe makes a huge difference in how they act (i.e., vote, share, help, condemn, kill, support, allow, respect, hide, notice, ridicule, etc..etc...etc..)

We in the USA are about to get 2 new justices on our Supreme Court, and knowing what they believe can affect the very substance of our lives for generations.

Of course an abstract belief by a private citizen on some arcane metaphysical matter is probably not going to **directly** affect me, and I do not make my posts here with any notion or expectation of changing a mind about God, the nature of the Universe, or how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin......but there is a certain class of arguments and defenses OF various beliefs that is, in my opinion, inherently weak, misleading and therefore dangerous to rational behavior.

If you believe, abstractly, in a "zealous and strict God", I can shrug, but if you use that belief to vote for a politician who is going attempt to restrict my freedoms based on that type of God, I WILL comment on it! There is a continuum of the 'seriousness' of forms and degrees of belief vectors, and I may at some point note a bad argument, even when the immediate relevance of the issue is not obvious. Just as others have the right to express their opinions, I reserve the right to comment if I think those opinions are poorly expressed and inadequately defended!

There ARE fair and reasonable ways to express opinions that are totally different from mine...and indeed, in many cases, mine may turn out not to be the 'right' ones--- but when ideas and concepts and opinions are simply stated as if they are 'revealed truth' and not to be questioned, I cannot resist replying.

If one reads my posts regularly and carefully, they ought to see that my interest is not so much in "what to believe", but in "how to think ABOUT believing". Some issues, in principle, have no absolute answer that we are likely to arrive at anytime soon. This does not mean we should not speculate, discuss and theorize, as they are interesting and, potentially important.....which is all the more reason for being careful in the process of wondering.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:42 PM

There's a big difference in "invoking a higher being" and believing that a higher being has been there all along. I'm not thinking there is any point in starting a discussion on the existence of God but I don't think it's necessary to belittle those that do believe by implying that we've made him up for our own selfish reasons or to refer to him as our imaginary friends. Just my two cents...

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:58 PM

Well, Frank, I respect that, and I apologize for my offensive remarks. I hope you can appreciate, in turn, how wearisome it can become to be told about the nature of the Infinite by people whose spirituality is lacking in many other respects, including tolerance, compassion and a healthy reverence for individual freedom of insight.

My problem has never been with those who believe in God in the fullest and broadest sense, but rather those who would use the vocabulary of that belief (a bruised and abused vocabulary at that) to forward what are transparently small-minded human-only concerns, such as dictating what to eat and what small boys may or may not do with their penises, or undermining the grand and humane spirit of the United States Constitution with petty minded moralisms. To my mind, anyone who has touched the genuine spark of God in the smallest way, even for an instant, would immediately be relieved of such ire against other people's lives and choices, in a transport of deep compassion.

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:13 PM

Uh-huh. Okay, Bill. No problem.

As far as I'm concerned, Bill, any number of angels could dance on the head of a pin...

if they chose to. ;-) But why would they?

Angels have no physical dimensions of measurement, so it would be child's play.

It would be like saying: "How many thoughts or ideas can be placed on the head of a pin?" An infinite number, that's how many.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:26 PM

Thanks Amos,

   I must say that it is also tiresome to see some of the people you talk about while knowing that I'm being grouped together with them because I'm a Christian so I can relate to what you say. There are a lot of people out there that are also Christian that do not necessarily speak for me!

   I probably jumped a little furthur down your throat than I should have. A little knee jerk reaction but as much as I try to stay away from threads with titles like these, I can't help myself and sometimes it gets to me. So, I appreciate your response.

   For what it's worth I don't feel like I have an imaginary friend and I certainly don't feel like I have a mental illness like another thread would have wanted us to believe. I have a belief in God and that I will be with him when he's ready for me to go there.


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:00 PM

Well, I do too, Frank. I don't refer to 'him' in the third person singular masculine, but I think the sense is the same.

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:11 PM

"Angels have..." which angels are those? I've not seen any.

All Drolizankers are inherently petulant, too! (maybe about dancing angels...)

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:32 PM

BTW, Bono's answer is an almost word perfect copy of the arguement of theAlpha Course, which was argued in very similar language by C.S Lewis in his 'Mere Christianinty' in the 1940's, and almost certainly further back.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,the Angels
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:30 PM

Bill, only a few people ever see us while they are still in the physical. Why? Well, there are a number of reasons.

Here are some...

Their attention is on other matters.

Their spiritual frequency is not high enough to perceive beyond a very limited spectrum of what is termed "visible light".

Their rigid belief systems censor their perceptions of reality. Children, for instance, are far more likely to see spiritual phenomena, because they haven't yet decided that they don't believe in such things (they haven't been told not to yet, in other words). Belief itself can grossly limit perception. Negative beliefs reduce one's ability to "see".

Angels will appear to people sometimes in moments of tremendous stress and/or great need. The stress itself proves sufficient to heighten perception, and the need may be there for an Angelic communication of some kind.

There has been no particular need for you to see an Angel lately...therefore you haven't seen one. Whether this will change depends entirely on you.

Many people do see Angels when leaving the body, at what is termed "clinical death". This may happen in your case. Let's wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:06 PM

gee...are the Angels answering me collectively? Purty amazing! And if so, can we have one keep an eye on this place as a sort of "guardian"? We have a chimp named Chongo who helps a lot on some matters, but he don't get on every day.

you, know, those angelic expositions remind me of other things I've read recently...you Angels don't happen to visit Canada a lot, do you?

"...therefore you haven't seen one. Whether this will change depends entirely on you." hmmm...You mean, if I want to bad enuf, I can do like others and convince myself I see stuff? Yep...I'll agree that's prob'ly so! And when my 'clinical death' comes, whether temporary or permanent, I got a BIG list of stuff I'd rather see...*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,the Angels
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:18 PM

Careful, Bill...careful. Your "clinical death" may arrive sooner than you think! It's not good to get cheeky with God. (that's a joke, Bill...) We are keeping a close eye on you at all times, and will make sure you don't shuffle off this mortal coil until you have made ALL the mistakes you came here to make this time! (*much laughter here in the spiritual regions)

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:57 PM

And the clickies below are (appropriately) Catholicism for Dummies and the Dark History of Religion, 7 Great Lies of Organized Religion. What say we read them both and report back?

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,Stephen L. Rich
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:09 AM

Why do we need religion? So that even atiests can have something to hate.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 07:54 AM

Here's an interesting view from Roy Hattersley

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:24 PM

"So that even athiests can have something to hate."

and what do NON-atheists hate?

gee, Stephen, I hope you don't take your comment very seriously..most atheists I know do NOT 'hate' religion, they merely dispute its claims. I don't like listening to the few that DO hate.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:41 PM

"... until you have made ALL the mistakes you came here to make this time!"

Make mistakes!? I don't make mistakes...I thought I made one once, but I was wrong.

*giggles from the material realm*

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:49 PM

I think Stephen has basically got it fairly right there, Bill. For "hate" you could substitute the words "feel superior to".

Most threads that are started with a title such as the title of this thread are started out of the poster's basic hostility to or smug sense of superiority over the very idea of religion. Hostility is hostility. When it's more extreme, it's called hatred. When it's less extreme it might just be called prejudice.

People who are hostile toward what they call "religion" generally lump all forms of spiritual belief whatsoever in with organized religion...as if the two had to be synonymous. They don't. Not by any means.

In other words, the person who dislikes religion decides that it has and must have one specific definition (which he made up)...which is the prejudiced, pejorative way that he sees "religion"...and he then consigns all forms of spiritual belief (most of which he is very ignorant of) within the straitjacket of that specific dumbass definition of his...which he created out of his own prejudice, just so he can have something to look down on and feel better than.

His definition may be equivalent to a crock of shit. It would be like asking Hitler for his opinion of Jews. Pointless.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:56 PM

Pointless - exactly.

Those that believe - will continue to believe.

Those that don't - won't.

And never the twaine shall meet.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:03 PM

Nobody likes other people making false assumptions about them.

If I said I was Christian, people would make plenty of false assumptions about me. So I don't say that. I do believe in "the Christ Spirit", but I'm not Christian. The Christ Spirit predated Christianity, and in any case, predated this whole planet, in my opinion. If you don't know what I mean by the "Christ Spirit", then telling you this won't accomplish a damn thing, will it? And do I care? No.

I don't need to be Christian. I just am, period. I am. That's all there is to it. I am. I always have been and I always will be. I was when there was no Christianity. Same as you. We are.

See what you can assume out of that. You cannot NOT BE what I am. You know why? Because you are too. If that's okay, great. If not, don't worry about it. Cos if you're not into it, then from your point of view it would be a waste of time to worry about it.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:04 PM

Regardless I think it is informative to make an important distinction between the experiential nature of spiritual events (including OOB, remote perception, transcendant insights, epiphanies of various kinds, contact with the Infinite, and on through the long list of religious experiences as individuals have perceived them) VERSUS and IN CONTRAST WITH the establishment and institutionalization of fixed agreement sets which passes for organized group-religion on this whacko planet.

I personally abhor organized religion, considering it to most often be an oxymoron and a scam, with some distinct exceptions. But I do not believe anyone, any state, individual or authority-figure has any right to gainsay anothers individual experiences or lack thereof, or tell him what he should think about these.

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Pseudolus
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:37 PM

Wesley, I have to disagree. Things happen in people's lives and they find religion, lose religion possibly several times throughout their lives. I do agree that there will always be a group for and a group against and it's unlikely that we can all agree and be on the same page. But there will always be some folks changing groups.

Amos, You make an interesting point on "organized religion". I guess in some ways I would be against organized religion for organized religion's sake. I read your post and I thought about why I go to my church every week. It's not because I have to, it's not because of a fear of going to hell if I don't. The reason I go to church every week is to be with a group of people who all believe the same thing that I do. My church family has been an incredible support system at times when I really needed it and I've had the opportunity to experience the feeling of helping when others have been in need. Is that unique to my church? Of course not. Are we "organized"? Yep! It's no secret that I believe in heaven and plan on going there. I don't believe that you have to be part of any religion or believe any certain things to be welcome when the time comes.

Little Hawk, I totally agree that as soon as you tell someone you are a Christian, there are assumptions made about you and not all of them are good! I too hate it when those assumptions are made especially with sweeping remarks in a thread.


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 03:39 PM

" When it's less extreme it might just be called prejudice."

Prejudice: "A partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation"

yeah, there ARE those who operate that way....I don't. I was raised IN a religion,and I still don't hate it, and my disagreement with it is not prejudice, because I came to my views THROUGH 'objective consideration'...unlike most of those who are still members. Thus, I do not state that religion is wrong, but merely that I see most of the defenses of it as flawed, i.e.unproven. I STILL retain an open mind, but 'open' does not mean 'trying very hard to believe' in my view...it means looking at all points of view and accepting or rejecting them according to proof, logic, and fairness- not 'comfort level'.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 03:47 PM

Frank:

The free and voluntary association of like-minded souls is the exception of which I speak. I am deeply opposed to any form of spiritual tyranny, which is why I sometimes sound off about groups I consider to be heavy-handed, dogmatic, or doctrinaire. The reason associations can be tricky is because it is only a small step from "talking to a group of like minded souls", and letting your soul become like the group mind, a very different thing indeed.

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:37 PM

Well said, Frank. The best reason to attend any church or such group, in my opinion, is that it allows one the company of kindred souls. ("where two or more are gathered in my name, there am I also")

This would be just as true for a gathering of physicists or a gathering of refrigerator salesmen, by the way, quite regardless of religion. We humans are creatures who benefit tremendously from sharing our minds and hearts in common purpose with others.


Bill - I get you. But...there are a great many things that cannot be proven or disproven, though they can certainly be experienced in one way or another. Oddly enough, it is primarily those things that concern me. The things which can be proven or disproven in this life hold little interest for me.    They're just not that important to me. I guess if I was a detective trying to solve a murder case...or a research scientist investigating DNA...then I'd be more concerned about such things! ;-)

It's primarily consciousness itself that concerns me...perceptions of reality...inner concepts and belief systems, and how they function in a person, and what results from their functioning. Silence. Thought. Love. Compassion. Jealousy. Wisdom. Insecurity. Faith. Wonder. Passion. Imagination. Idealism. Hope. Joy. Sorrow. Self-esteem. Those are the things that really concern me. The "inner man". Consciousness. Being. The awareness that "I am". None of them are susceptible to either proof or disproof in any respect that I know of. They are subjective in nature, not objective. They cannot be measured, yet they are crucial to existence. I am concerned about subjectivity.

Objectivity is logical, procedural, and usually quite obvious (to me, anyway) and it doesn't fascinate me. I use it merely when I need to use it to accomplish something practical. It's prosaic.

I will not be an objective phenomenon when I leave this body, Bill, and I am only going to be here in this body for a ridiculously short blip in the annals of time. My body...without the conscious being that is me...will have no function, and will vanish pretty quickly.

I'm concerned about me...the Life that animates this body. I am not provable or disprovable...except as a body. The fact that you see this post is proof that I (or somebody) just typed it. So what? ;-)

What's important is not proof that I typed it, not proof that I have a body at the moment, but the meaning that is communicated IN what I just typed...

(and that can be debated about some, but not proven)

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:41 PM

I think it is important to remember that Christians, in the US, at least, may be painted with a broad brush because the extremists of Christianity have become the vocal majority and *embedded* their *crusaders* in every level of our government, working to have the most profound effects on each and every one of us. IMO, it is up to all Christians who do not agree with them, and the rest of us, to oppose them.

LH, you sure you weren't ever a Rosicrucian?**bg** Well-put.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:50 PM

It's as easy to generalise about Christians as it is to generalise about folk singers. In other words - you can't. Or shouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:52 PM

Kat said: "...working to have the most profound effects on each and every one of us. IMO, it is up to all Christians who do not agree with them, and the rest of us, to oppose them."

I agree. Just like we think that the less visible Muslims should be out there protesting the violent ones. Lately some Muslim leaders are making clear their opposition and disapproval.

Some Christians are doing their part too, for instance, Jim Wallis of God's Politics is very clear and articulate in his views of what is wrong today and how we can fix it. However, we need higher profile people, vociferous people, people who state their positions and hammer it home.

If we don't - and soon - I think this country is in deep doo doo and will be for a long time to come.

(Reminds me of a commentator who said he saw a young woman dressed in her high heels and finery step out of a limo onto the sidewalk and exclaim: 'Oh shit! I stepped in some doo doo.")

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:52 PM

Kat, you are a good soul, and I am sending you a big smile!

I don't know much about the Rosicrucians. Maybe I was one in another lifetime.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 07:40 PM

well, Little Hawk...I see a bit more in your explanation about your personal, ultimate 'concerns'. If most of your interest is in all those concepts about conciousness and its functioning, of course you will both 'see' and phrase things differently than I might...but we still must debate and communicate 'as if' we follow the same set of constraints, since no matter how we view matter & reality, we are both trapped in it in similar ways.

That's why I pick and poke at some remarks. In your thoughts, you make a couple of statements that, by their nature, have debatable assumptions embedded in them:

"there are a great many things that cannot be proven or disproven, though they can certainly be experienced in one way or another."

This calls into question just what a 'thing' is, and what it means to be experienced without being 'proven'...and even how to deal with 'in one way or another'. We DO have experiences, both of obvious physical things like doors, and of not-so-obvious things like ideas and dreams. You treat some of these concepts as if it is given that they are independant of the body doing the experiencing. THAT is the great debate ...and the important point is not whether they ultimately are or are not, but whether the answer can be given and unquestioned.

"I will not be an objective phenomenon when I leave this body,"

same basic point...you **state** that there IS a separate 'you' that will 'leave the body'. There might be...I don't claim I can prove that there is not, but I certainly see no way to know this, and from my viewpoint, claims that "this is how it works" are at best, vague, and at worse, wishful thinking. I see the allure, I just don't see the basis. Sorry, but just explaining that it is 'not subject to standard "proof" does not validate it as true.
   If, as you say, you consider being 'in' a body prosaic and boring, it is nevertheless the case that while you are in it and subject to this awkward way of communicating with your fellow 'trappees', certain rules apply to all our situations, one of which is...we won't KNOW the answers about mind/body dichotomy until we die...(or leave this body, and there I am at a disadvantage...if I am right, I don't get to say "I told you so".....'taint fair, says I...I guess I compensate for this unfairness by excessive pedantry while I'm here...

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 08:12 PM

Ah, but Bill D, just think how happy you will be if you are proved wrong! *G*

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 08:43 PM

I'm not interested in trying to validate it as true, Bill. I'm interested in interpreting it, given that I have some experiential awareness of it.

I frankly don't care whether or not it's "validated", by your system or anyone else's. I accept what I experience as it comes to me, and I interpret it as best I can. Spiritual things and emotional and mental things are not to be validated and thus proven "true", they are to be experienced directly and interpreted in order to derive meaning from them.

If you don't experience them, I've got no problem with that at all.

You don't see the "basis" of my belief in a soul that is independent of the physical body, because it doesn't meet your chosen set of assumptions about reality. Fine with me. It doesn't matter. Your view of reality is fine for you, and mine is fine for me. I don't see the "basis" of voting for either the Democrats or the Republicans, nor do I see any rational basis for those 2 parties continuing to exist (given their record). Okay? You pick your basis, and I'll pick mine.

Note: When I use the word "thing" in the above context, I am referring to a subjective experience...something one experiences in a conscious way. An experience is a thing. It's not a tactile or measurable thing, but it is something that one experiences....

"some thing..." Anything that is something is some thing. ;-) Anything we can discuss is something, including any totally hypothetical concept. It's a concept, and a concept is a thing. It's a mental thing. Is it provable? Maybe, and maybe not. Do I care? No, not really.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:43 PM

ah, Ebbie...I am not so sure I WOULD be happy! It very much depends on whose version of eternity or 'higher planes of existence' turns out to be true. I have had some of them explained that, "no thank you, I don't care to go forever under those bylaws"

I don't expect it to be an issue, somehow.

Little Hawk: over & over you miss my point....I am not arguing 'reality'...I don't HAVE a "chosen set of assumptions about reality"....I have an 'opinion' about how to conduct a debate, plus, way down low in priority, some 'suspicions' about what reality is probably not.

You use words like "every thing" and "validate" and "provable" in slippery ways that are very close to, if not totally, equivocation. ...this does not make you 'wrong' about reality, but it IS a flawed usage There are rules about proof, logic, coherent argument, etc., that are not subject to 'agreement'. You cannot just say "you pick your (rules) and I'll pick mine".

You can say "It is my opinion that mind and body are independant", and you can say "I choose not to enter this discussion or abide by those rules you refer to", and there is little I can say... "You say to-may-to, I say to-MAH-to"...but you can also say "I don't like 2+2 always equaling 4", and it won't get you $5 at the bank.


so...I do understand that you have a different set of concerns, and that you feel you have had experiences that justify, if not 'prove', your viewpoint...(and yes, I understand that you don't really feel the need to justify OR prove any basis for thinking differently than I do.)
We both know that we shoulda called it a draw a long time ago....*grin*...but I'd venture we both derive a certain satisfaction from refining our viewpoint in these various discussions......I will, however, refrain from direct confrontation on these issues in the future, if you think it best. I like debate, but I don't like getting close to antagonism with folks I truly respect and enjoy....

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 12:14 PM

I'm not conducting a debate, Bill. Maybe that's why I don't get your point. I'm simply discussing things I'm interested in.

What is your point, anyway? Try and make it brief. ;-)

EVERYONE, Bill, EVERYONE has a chosen set of assumptions about reality! (unless they are in a coma or otherwise unconscious)

It's just that most people take their own chosen set of assumptions about reality so totally for granted that they don't even know they have them! I don't do that. I have been examining my basic assumptions, and challenging them, ever since my early 20's. I have changed my opinion about a whole lot of things, and I will no doubt continue to change my opinion with further investigation.

Life is not about "proof", as far as I'm concerned. It's about transformation.

I wouldn't say that mind and body are independent, exactly, I'd say that they are fully integrated while the body is alive, but that body is much secondary to mind, an effect of mind...since it was built BY mind in the first place, and is later discarded by that same mind when it wears out. Kind of like a car...built by mind, used by mind, discarded by mind. Only...a body is built through normal biological processes (conception, 9 months in the womb, birth, growth, etc.) whereas a car is built on an assembly line.

I assume that you think mind arises from the body, whereas I think it's exactly the other way around. I see little likelihood that we will arrive at a resolution of that philosophical difference, and I see no way of effectively dealing with it through your debating system. No way whatsoever. You can't play chess with a deck of cards or saddle a moonbeam with a refrigerator. ;-)

I am NOT debating. I'm discussing. Who needs a debate?

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 02:55 PM

" EVERYONE has a chosen set of assumptions..." hmmm...if you mean something like a "working hypothesis"...maybe I do, but the flavor of the remark is that of inflexible and pre-digested 'answers'. That, I do NOT do...and you suggest that you don't either. "I have been examining my basic assumptions, and challenging them, ever since my early 20's." ... yet, your usual way of formulating responses seems to state that "this is how it is" rather than "this is how it seems to me. You may consider this nit-picking, but to me it is important to not phrase things in such a way as to imply "...and if you'd just open up and allow yourself to see the truth, YOU'D see it my way, also"!
Perhaps I am over-sensitive to language that resembles, except for details, religious prosyletizing that I have struggled with for years. Plus, 6-7 years of serious study in philosophy also have attuned me to notice positions that don't include disclaimers when they make generalizations.

Do I think " mind arises from the body"?...well, I am not sure. I can, at least, describe a process that is internally consistant, compatible with most of the relevant scientific principles, and seems to account for all of the observable phenomena. You say you ARE sure of the opposite, but you never say quite 'how' a mind can 'build' a body. From what? Where is a mind located BEFORE it is "fully integrated"? How can we even conceptualize mind without body?

You ask, "What is your point?" (and make it brief ;>) )..ok, one brief try.
My point is,
1)we do have models for 'how' things work in my (current)view of reality, and we CAN measure and test them.
2)*IF* we postulate other views, we need some sort of test. If a view is postulated that, by definition, cannot BE measured or tested, then it IS merely a linguistic construction...even if it is ultimately true.
3)UNTIL there is a way to 'know', it remains a linguistic construction, like poetry.
4) *IF* more is claimed for a position than being linguistic poetry, the burden of proof is on the assertor. Poets do not claim universal application for their concepts. Coleridge never said "Xanadu" was a place in reality, just as Plato never really said his "forms" had independant existance.
5)..and here is the subtle part...IF one posts anything that LOOKS like claims of stuff that is not testable, measurable, repeatable, photographable, they are gonna get called on it..*grin*. A circular argument that "It's NOT provable, and I don't care to try, I just KNOW it!" is like a red flag. Some of us just can't resist.

(fingers itching to expound & enlarge...but I may already may be beyond 'brief') (you know the old college remark, "I don't have TIME to write a short paper"?)

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 11:52 PM

Poetry, among other things, is valued because it touches the Knower in a way that he did not know he was knowing but knows he was as soon as it is pointed out.

This is not subject to proof, of course, but to my mind, is never the less true.

How d'ya like them apples, Bill? :D

With fond regards,


A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,Jdozs
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 08:09 AM

I'm 26 with 2 children and a wonderful wife. I am a high school graduate without college education. I spent all but 3 years in 2 different baptist private schools. My parents were alcholics and drug addicts among other things and did not have the time to teach basic moral principals to me. I write that only to give you a better understanding of me and maybe shed light into why I Choose the path I lead. I struggled for last few years with thoughts of religion and god. I wished I had some sort of answer to all of this. I slowly started loosing my faith in the church and as that diminished so did my faith in a higher being. I believe this was due to the fact that I no longer needed it. I did not need to believe in a protecter, in afterlife, creation, or things greater than myself. I wondered is this it no longer. I didn't care. If this is it than why not make the most of it. If this is not all there is than worry about that train when it comes. Religion fills voids not much different than an addict needs a fix. People need to depend on things greater than themselves. Lack of control gives man someone to blame when things do not work out the way they wanted. An ideal of afterlife gives hope in a world of unexplainable chaos. Life is a series of choices whether they be yours or someone elses. Grasp what is here. Love your family, self, friends, and all things around you. Death is not to be feared but rather embraced as the final cycle of all living things.

I fear I may have been a little long winded so I will end with this

"Right and wrong is in the costitution of ones own mind" RWE

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:35 AM

"The reason I go to church every week is to be with a group of people who all believe the same thing that I do."

Thats just like any cult.

Trouble is, right or wrong, your peer group gives you the confidence to believe that you are somehow morally superior to those who are not part of your cult.

"People need to depend on things greater than themselves."

Maybe you do but not everyone needs this. Sounds like helplessness and despair to me.

"Lack of control gives man someone to blame when things do not work out the way they wanted."

Yeah, right. Blame it on God!

"An ideal of afterlife gives hope in a world of unexplainable chaos"

Hope is not dependent on a belief in an afterlife.

If anything, I feel sorry for people who think that life is so bleak that they need to believe in something that does not, in fact, exist. Its a state of mind.

The way you talk, any cult would serve the same purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Pseudolus
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:00 AM

Dianavan, If you believe that I need my peers to give me confidence to be morally superior to those who believe differently than me then you have shown only that you don't know me, or for that matter my peers. I don't feel superior to anyone morally or otherwise. If I did, that would mean that I have judged and it is not my right to judge anyone. You may want to read the post from Jdozs again. He didn't state that he believed "People need to depend on things greater than themselves" or that HE needed to be able to blame God, he was describing what he thought was behind people needing religion.

For what it's worth, I don't believe that life is bleak and I am not a member of a cult. I just believe that there is a God, he watches over me and when I die, it won't be the end, just the end of life as I know it now.

Frank