BS: Old expressions explained

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Leadfingers
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:58 AM

Thats OK jenny - I looked at this one earlier but couldnt think of any thing sufficiently witty for a 99th !! You are welcome to the 1ooth !!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,xavior
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 03:56 PM

Hey.....no one answered the person who wrote in wondering where the
expression "chocker blocked" came from. Anyone know. x

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:47 PM

yes they did...right under the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:04 PM

GUEST,Boab's "All info as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike---"
reminded me of two that are common around where I live:
"Useless as tits on a bull" and "Useless as a plough upstairs".

The continuing posts about cannon balls and brass monkeys is intriguing for a couple of things:
1 Everybody, with the possible exceptionof one poster who made reference to Brighton and Aberdeen, seems to have associated cannon and their ammunition with ships (and the Victory seems central to many notions) when there is plenty of evidence (ie stories) about land-based use of them,
2 Everybody, again with the possible exception of the poster who started the reference to monkey's tails and other anatomy, seems to give little credit to the possibility that much earlier people had the same sense of absurd wit that we value, exemplified in the more modern Goon Show; the absurdity of linking the feeling of bitter cold to both balls and a brass monkey is exquisite.

But to add to the list, a couple from the days of cutting tall timber manually.

"Top notch" is used to describe "the best" and there are two situations where it applied literally. The tallest trees in Australia's forests (and the one measuring 366' when felled was regarded as the tallest in the world) are Eucalyptus regnans and had very large buttresses (my grandparents had a piccie of the base of one that took 39 blokes to stretch arms to reach around it) that reached a good 40' up the trunk from the ground. To fell the tree and have a log that was round, two axemen would operate from opposite sides cutting a notch as far up as they could reach. Into the notch they'd ram a 6' long horizontal plank, climb onto it with their axe and another such plank and stand on it to cut another, higher notch. This would be repeated until they got to the desired height when they would fell the tree. Woodchop competitions still celebrate this technique. To get to the required height the fastest was to be top notch.

The other situation was when the log was being sawn longitudinally and gave rise to another expression often used in Australia. Before mechanical milling, the log that was going to be sawn was positioned over a pit and sawn by two men pulling the opposite ends of a long saw; crosscut saws (with a particular set to the teeth; another 'term') were used when cutting across the log and rip saws (with a quite different set to the teeth) were used for cutting along the log.

The "top dog" would stand on top of the log and place the rip saw in the top notch where the cut was to start. The "under dog" would stand in the bottom of the pit and pull the saw down. The top dog would then pull the saw back up but, to maintain rhythm and speed, would not bite the saw into the timber as hard as the under dog could when using gravity to assist his pull down. The underdog also got covered in sawdust from all this, as well as doing the tougher labour.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 08:07 PM

Lovely explanation, Rowan! Thanks!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 11:47 PM

The Mrs. and I saw a "top dog" and "under dog" demontrate that technique a couple of years back. Any extended time working as "under dog" had to be one of life's almost unthinkable occupations.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 12:05 AM

It's just possible, though, that the concept of observing a top dog and an underdog at work goes back waaaay before saw-pits...



A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Rowan
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 12:41 AM

Life's a bitch, isn't it Amos.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 03:39 AM

Re. hangers on.

In the Newgate Calendar (a collection of records of infamous villains, Dick Turpin, Jack Shepherd & such) there is frequent reference to friends and family hanging on to the victims legs to hasten death. The standard execution was hanging but this meant a slow death by strangulation, the 'modern' method of neck-breaking had not been developed. The victims were referred to as being 'turned off'.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:38 AM

I've seen so many plausible and implausible, delightful and mundane expanations of old expressions bunked, debunked, rebunked, junked and defunct, that no longer believe ANY of the explanations. I think Snopes captured the matter well:

"Most of us feel a bit of a glow when we think we're in possession of information others aren't privy to, and when a titillating or apt story is thrown in behind the trivia, these things just take off."

(But - carry on!) (Oh - sailors in the British navy had to tote or "carry on" their personal gear, when boarding a ship. Often, the morning after a last night's spree ashore, a groggy sailor would hesitate to try to determine if he was about to board the right ship. The presiding officer would holler ... hence the commonly used ... blah, blah, blah ... ).

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 09:39 AM

In other words - have fun! (From the acronym, F.U.N., or "F---ed Up Nonsense").

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 10:18 AM

square plates = "Square meal"

so following on logically, why didn쳌ft the navy have square balls to stop 쳌eem rolling around?

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 01:56 PM

When I was at (UK)school in the fifties we were taught that in medieval times, market days were held & people bought piglets sewn into a bag called a 'poke'. Thus you were never to buy 'a pig in a poke' because it could have been a cat, hence (as mentioned above) the buyer could warn others about the swindler by 'letting the cat out of the bag'.

If not true, it shows you should never rely on teachers!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 02:22 PM

Do your own homework, research, and thinking, for the love o' PEte, insofar as possible. There is so much trash on the Internet about false histories (for example, the railroad-gauge deriving from Roman chariot widths story) that you can get a head full of false data and end up stupider than you would be if you'd never even found the Internet in the first place.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 02:37 PM

Yeah, but you and 97.8% of the people you meet will THINK that you are wise, and that's all that matters.

Btw - re: "for the love o' Pete". This expression refers to a well-known gigolo of mysterious origin who appeared in Paris around the end of WWI - or, according to some sources, around the end of the Roman conquest of Gaul. Lonely patrician women would ...

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 03:26 PM

ROFLMAO!! It actually derives from an Old French vernacular word "piet! piet!" which was used as a nickname for small housecats by Breton farmers and their wives. Circa 1278.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: MMario
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 04:00 PM

I'm waiting for the day some of the "explanations" and "histories" humourously posted here at the 'cat show up on someone's internet page as "truth".

already seen a couple cases of recently composed verses being touted as "traditional" - and tracing them back to challenge!s or speciulative postings by 'catters. (though it wasn't intentional on the part of the people claiming that - it was confusion and inadaquete reading)

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: bubblyrat
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:02 AM

Regardless of how much it weighs, armour is dangerous ! Last year, I read a newspaper report about a man ,in full armour, at a re-enactment or something in, I think, Sweden, who was struck by lightning-----Shocked witnesses reported a hissing sound, and steam coming from the eye-slits in the helmet !! Uuugh !!
    As to the origins of " OK " ----My own pet theory is this :
   Many early Immigrants to America , came from Scotland. Now, when a Scotsman wishes to indicate assent or approval to / of something, he invariably says " Och ! Aye ! " , and it is easy to see how this could have mutated into " OK ", don"t you think ??? At least, it"s more feasible than some of the rather far-fetched and convoluted explanations that I have encountered thus far !!

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Black Hawk not logged in
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:26 AM

I spend my holidays in Scotland & have a static caravan on a small farm.
The most enjoyable evenings have been when the farmer & I enjoyed a 'wee dram' together sitting outside as the sun went down. Between yarning etc. there would be pauses when we just sat & enjoyed the view over the Loch. During these pauses the farmer would sigh now & again & I would hear a quiet 'Och Aye'. My children think of this as a typical scotsmans expression.
Alas, my friend died last year but I still have memories of a real gentleman to treasure. He was definately OK !

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 11:47 AM

Without yet having read right thru this fascinating thread,I just wanted to mention one resource that my waters tell me hasn't yet been referred to yet. As a means of answering these questions.




Wait for it.




books.



some people masy have heard of these,especially those who grew up B.I.

Got it?

No? yes?


B.I. - Before the Internet




There are loads of books that give phrase origins,some with detailed sources,too many without.

And books are sometimes more authoritative then the big I.






      Ivor



PS There are also amazing,little-known places that are a treasury that kind of stuff,going under wierd names like

   library

    and

   bookshop.

   Definitions of both are available in the infinite glories of www.

Subject: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Cindee Berry
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 10:48 AM

I'm trying to find the origin of an expression we used as kids ... and unfortunately, I'm not quite sure if we got it right.

We said some form of   envoir ... or Omvure ... or homvoir ...

phonetically   ahm-ver    or   ahn-ver

that meant anything from 'shame on you' to 'that's bad' or 'I'm telling'

Any thoughts or suggestions on this? We were raised in Montana.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: kendall
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 02:51 PM

The use of the word "cannon" is improper when referring to the armament aboard a ship. A cannon is used in a fortress on shore, and the same type of weapon aboard ship is called a gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:37 PM

I've been in and out of this thread at various times, and I might have missed someone else giving this, but I remembered that "blue blood" or "blueblood" was questioned earlier, so I looked it up in WorldWideWords which is an excellent source of reliable word knowledge, run by Michael Quinion. He says:

Unlike so many other expressions, this one is well documented.

It's a direct translation of the Spanish sangre azul. Many of the oldest and proudest families of Castile used to boast that they were pure bred, having no link with the Moors who had for so long controlled the country, or indeed any other group. As a mark of this, they pointed to their veins, which seemed bluer in colour than those of such foreigners. This was simply because their blue-tinted veins showed up more prominently in their lighter skin, but they took it to be a mark of their pure breeding.

So the phrase blue blood came to refer to the blood which flowed in the veins of the oldest and most aristocratic families. The phrase was taken over into English in the 1830s. By the time Anthony Trollope used it in The Duke's Children in 1880, it had become common:

    It is a point of conscience among the — perhaps not ten thousand, but say one thousand of bluest blood, — that everybody should know who everybody is. Our Duke, though he had not given his mind much to the pursuit, had nevertheless learned his lesson. It is a knowledge which the possession of the blue blood itself produces. There are countries with bluer blood than our own in which to be without such knowledge is a crime.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:24 PM

Hope that helps, Cindee.


Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: Escapee
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 11:51 PM

Many of these phrases are explained in The Oxford Book Of Ships And The Sea, Oxford University Press, Peter Kemp, editor. Some of the explanations are pretty dull compared to this thread, but they're much easier to swallow. It's amazing to me how many common words and phrases come to us from the days of sail. But it was a pervasive technology. Where we see one container ship with a crew of maybe a dozen or so, our great-grandparents would have seen dozens of ships and hundreds of sailors. And its nearly gone, except for the way they talked.
E

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: HuwG
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:43 AM

Just re-read some of the earlier posts:

Time Immemorial does (or did) have a specific meaning in English law. In 1276, it was fixed by Statute that any custom or right which had been exercised since before 1189 (i.e. the end of the reign of Henry II and the accession of Richard I) should be regarded as having been in use since "time immemorial", and therefore did not need any specific grant to be exercised.

A requirement was that any such right or custom should be "continually exercised" i.e. could not fall into disuse and be subsequently reinstated. The difficulty of proving this over seven hundred years led to a change in the nineteenth century. It was established that any right which had been continually exercised for at least twenty years (or thirty years where the right had been exercised against a claim by the Crown) should be regarded as having existed since "time immemorial".

Subject: RE: BS: Old expressions explained
From: GUEST,Rog Peek at work
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 12:05 PM

I understand that 'getting the wrong end of the stick' originated from the Romans use of a santary sponge on the end of a stick to wipe their behinds. The stick was kept in a bucket of water and re-used until it became too foul. Consequently, one took great care not to take hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Incidentally Tofctgyd, I grew up in Cirencester in Gloucestershire and we called the custom of knocking on doors and running away 'knock down ginger', so it was not just local to London.

Rog