Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 05:39 AM

Ruth, I keep producing the evidence you demand - and you keep ignoring it. THREE documented horse deaths in the last two years and you still go on about an 'isolated incident'.

If there's one good thing to come out of all this, it's that the drowning story has gone around the world - and hopefully will shame the authorities into acting to prevent such an horrific act from re-occuring. They have stood on the sidelines for far too long.

If anyone really really wants cast-iron proof of horse cruelty (including deaths) at Appleby over a long period of time, then I will obtain it. It will take a while - I have people and organisations to contact (the only reason why more incidents haven't been revealed now is that the Westmorland Gazette has not digitised its past issues).

But, for those in denial, I promise you, I promise you that I will produce evidence that horses have been killed at Appleby Horse Fair year after year after year.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:10 AM

Grimmy, as Liz pointed out, at least two of those deaths were road traffic accidents that did not actually take place at Appleby. And they WERE accidents - not willful abuse, such as the incident that happened this year. The "drowning" incident you most recently linked to is uncorroborated, and therefore no more than gossip and hearsay.

If regular animal abuse is going on, there should clearly be a stop put to it. If you can produce that evidence, brilliant.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:36 AM

2006
Meanwhile, the RSPCA is investigating the death of a horse, which collapsed and died outside the Grapes public house in The Sands, Appleby, in the early hours of June 12 morning. It is believed the horse was abandoned after being run up and down Battlebarrow, a number of times, before collapsing after becoming exhausted.

2005
The RSCPA usually records up to five injured horses a day. However, two horses died at the event, one dying from blood poisoning caused by stress. The owners of both horses failed to come forward.

Ruth, how many deaths do you want me to uncover before you are satisfied?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:22 AM

So if these are documented cases, and they have been investigated by the RSPCA, why has the RSPCA not instigated any large-scale reform?

I'm not talking about individuals on the ground, during the fair, who you say feel intimidated about interfering. I'm talking about reform at a higher level.

And if all of this is well known and documented, why did the police officer on the news report earlier in the thread refer to "one death in the past 10 years"?

With the greatest of respect, it doesn't seem to add up.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:30 AM

In any case, I don't think we're going to achieve any resolution here with the "yes it is, no it isn't" dialogue. but before I bow out of this disacussion, I'd like to reiterate what i said yesterday: it does seem like there's an awful lot worse going on when it comes to animal abuse than what's going on at Appleby. The damage being done to animals and the environment in the racing and farming industries alone make Appleby a bit of a tempest in a teacup.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:38 AM

I quite agree.

You may well ask about the reaction of the RSPCA and police.

They've been brushing these incidents under the carpet for years.

It stinks.

Maybe this time, now that the whole world knows, something will be done.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:48 AM

And I would respectfully suggest that the other reason might be that by taking action against anything that happens at Appleby they would set a precedent for taking action against steeplechasing, greyhound racing etc.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 08:46 AM

I hope they take action whenever and wherever animal cruelty takes place.

At least this time they daren't do a cover-up, though don't expect an arrest anytime soon.

If you think I'm making all this up, here's a recent headline from the local paper quoting 'police sources':

Appleby Horse Fair: Peaceful - despite gun attack

Quite.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:07 AM

This may have already been said, but there seem to be alot of people on this thread wanting to ban this and ban that. However it is a fact that more horses are killed on the roads each year by assholes in cars.

Didnt notice anyone advocating the banning of cars??

Just a point to remember for those who say we shouldnt be on the road in the first place. Whilst we try really hard not to put our horses in danger we have no alternative but to use the public highway on occasions, to get from bridle path to bridle path.

Horses were on the roads long before cars and in many instances we still have right of way.

Whilst I do not condone what happened Appleby, it happens more often and nearer to home than you think, but does not get on the TV or in the papers.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:21 AM

The PA,

Any horse death is to be regretted and I do not condone the negligence and/or ignorance of car drivers, but the incidents you describe come, rightly or wrongly, under the category of 'accident'.

I am talking about deliberate or reckless behaviour resulting in the death of a horse.

As an obvious horse lover, how do you react to this:

Horse death reflects worst aspects of fair
Saturday, 17 June 2006
THE RSPCA is appealing for information after the death of a horse at Appleby New Fair.

Police alerted the society to the horse which had collapsed outside The Grapes public house in The Sands, Appleby, in the early hours of Sunday. Despite the best efforts of RSPCA inspectors and two vets, the horse died.

It seems the animal was abandoned after being run up and down Battlebarrow, Appleby, a number of times. It is believed the horse then became exhausted and collapsed.

RSPCA chief inspector Brian Jeffries said: "This appalling incident reflects the worst of the animal welfare concerns at the Appleby fair. Despite efforts made by all those involved, incidents like this raise serious questions about how certain individuals conduct themselves whilst at the fair."

The RSPCA is seeking to identify the occupants of a blue Ford Transit flatbed lorry which was seen leaving the scene. Anybody with any information regarding this incident can call the RSPCA in confidence on its 24-hour cruelty hotline [phone].


(There were no arrests, BTW).

Some people on this thread have attempted to compare deaths at Appleby with, say, the racing industry. However, Appleby Fair only takes place during one week of the year, so the comparisons are meaningless. So far I have discovered 7 deaths since 2000 (there was no fair in 2001). That equates to seven weeks' worth of racing. I wonder how the figures stack up now?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:52 AM

They tried to stop Padstow because of gun incidents. Luckily, they failed.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM

I would question the ability of the Police or any animal welfare organisation to properly 'police' events such as Appleby.

No one really knows the origins/health/age of most of these horses and ponies. After a certain age older equines can be passed off as being much younger. To run a horse up and down a number of times for a prospective buyer (to check for lameness) can completely finish off an older horse. Therefore these animals are open to all sorts of abuse/crualty.

The difference with organised events such as eventing, racing and the like is that these sports have governing bodies and there are strict rules to adhere to. There are vets and farriers present. Even at our local show, there are strict rules as to how many classes any horse can enter on the day (only 3 for jumping classes - perhaps 2 minutes in the ring that equates to around 6 minutes work in one day) there are also rules covering the ages of horses and riders. There are also rules concerning the conduct of riders and their treatment of their horses, which can result in these people not only being sent from the ring but banned from the show. Believe me your name will soon become known if you are sent home.

None of these safe guards are in place at Appleby and I think that is the difference.

All I have to say about the RSPCA, is wellmeaning but through no fault of their own useless.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM

. However, Appleby Fair only takes place during one week of the year, so the comparisons are meaningless. So far I have discovered 7 deaths since 2000 (there was no fair in 2001). That equates to seven weeks' worth of racing. I wonder how the figures stack up now?

You haven't a prayer on that one Grimmy.

In 2006 eleven horses died at the Cheltenham Festival meeting. Four day meeting.

March 7th 2007 four horses in one day at Stratford and Plumpton.

March 20th 2007 four in one day at Wincanton.

Those are public deaths, many more take place in training.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:10 AM

Grimmy

Some people on this thread have attempted to compare deaths at Appleby with, say, the racing industry. However, Appleby Fair only takes place during one week of the year, so the comparisons are meaningless. So far I have discovered 7 deaths since 2000 (there was no fair in 2001). That equates to seven weeks' worth of racing. I wonder how the figures stack up now?

Perhaps you didn't follow the link I gave before so here it is again - Animal Aid. Cheltenham is a four day event. The Grand National is a three day event.

Here are a few more -
http://www.peta.org.uk/factsheet/files/FactsheetDisplay.asp?ID=152

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/article431445.ece

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM

Cruelty frequently happens in racing although rarely get reported. This report in the Daily Mail proved the exception yesterday at Royal Ascot.
Personally I would have banned the jockey for life.

CLICK

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:28 AM

"I am talking about deliberate or reckless behaviour resulting in the death of a horse."

Now please amend your sums (you can work together if you wish, though it looks like you already are!).

If we're including accidents, then my figures go through the roof.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM

And why do people keep banging on about the National. What about the Derby? In flat racing horses are already racing at the age of 2, so, what age do you think they begin their training???? They're barely yearlings.

Most are completely knacked by the time they are 7, with horrendous leg problems, and are put out of their misery for the insurance payouts.   Assuming they still have 4 good leg, some go to retirement homes where they try to rehabilitate them.

Horses in other deciplins are not broken in (a term I personally hate) until they are 4, when they bodies are properly matured (half way through a flat racers career) and do not begin competing until they are 5.

If people want to protest, it should be about flat racing - go tell the blessed Franki Dettorri what you think of HIM.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 11:54 AM

Yes I am sure they do. So do mine if you count those killed and injured in training. The ones killed in front of the horse-racing public are approximately 1/3rd of the total.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 12:09 PM

Cruelty frequently happens in racing although rarely get reported. This report in the Daily Mail proved the exception yesterday at Royal Ascot.
Personally I would have banned the jockey for life.

Frankie Dettori has a record of being banned as long as your arm. Including for excessive use of the whip. He also confessed to using drugs to keep his weight down.

But he won his first Derby this year and that made him untouchable.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 01:48 PM

folkie dave,the daily wail again,.
I had a lookat the photograph of frankie Dettori,s horse,it looked alright,on the side I could see,the other horse is dead.A big difference, Iwould say.
Dettoris taking of drugs is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: nutty
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:45 PM

The point That I'm trying to make Dick , is that you can't bleat on about animal cruelty at Appleby without taking all forms of animal cruelty into consideration.

Do you really believe that, if Frankie Dettori's horse was all right, the Jockey Club would be placing a ban on him??

Would you have held the same opinion if the horse in question had been press so hard that it died of a heart attack or some other cause - which does often happen.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:25 PM

I dont know whether the horse was alright or not ,I am only able to judge from the one photograph I saw.
THE jockey club have to ban a jockey for excessive use of the whip.,how badly hurt the horse was none of us know.we do know that the other horse is dead.

I would agree with you that you cant bleat on about animal cruelty without taking all forms of animal cruelty into consideration.
meanwhile thousands of people are being tortured and are starving in Zimbabwe.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:32 PM

Nice of you to join in this one Dick, if a bit belatedly. We can all do abuse Dick.

I am delighted you can tell the condition of a horse from looking at a photograph. I am sure there are people who could use such a skill. Perhaps the damage was on the other side - or did that not occur to you?

Had you bothered to read the rest of the thread you will have noted I did indeed lament the lost of the horse at Appleby early on. But to save you the trouble of looking it up, here is my position again.

I lament the death or cruelty to any animal - I do not restrict myself as earlier correspondents did to Appleby Horse Fair - I am also concerned with the cruelty of horse racing too (as an example). That includes the use of a whip by jockeys. NB not the excessive use of the whip, any use of the whip. Frankie Dettori has a track record of being banned for use of the whip before and he did it again today.

In most sports people get banned for using drugs. Apparently this does not apply in horse racing except if you drug the horses.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 04:20 PM

I said it looked alright on the side I could see[In other words its impossible to make a judgement without more photographs].Idont know whether the horse was alright or not , I am only able to judge from the one photograph Isaw.that is what I wrote.
Whats all this about doing abuse,what are you on about.
Keiran Fallon has just been banned from six months for abusing drugs,.other jockeys have been banned for longer,Dave your talking rubbish,jockeys do get banned for taking drugs

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:03 PM

OK - As the Original Poster of this thread, I will comment again. I posted the question, much as one would find an exam question, I thought, as in Blah de Blah de Blah: Discuss. Perhaps the references I provided were subliminally suggestional (?). They were, without doubt, relevant.

Yes, I think it is right, when considering Animal Cruelty to look at the widest panorama but even the most naive of people understand that, in order to do anything about anything you need to break things down into manageable bites and the message I seem to be receiving here is something along the lines of this:

The Traveller Culture is one 'we' would like to be associated with as it is compatible with our ideas about traditions and minority cultures, therefore we are reluctant to chastise it without further investigation. However we appreciate that there may be some areas of this culture which, if we were honest, we might have difficulty with ... however, we have found some other cultures, we don't have too much difficulty not defending, because we associate ourselves with them to a lesser degree. And, more so, because we associate them with people to whom we do not associate ourselves. So please can we sort them out first.

Am I right or am I wrong??    (Is this about people or is this about animals? I am not saying people should not rail against animal cruelty in racing (flat or otherwise). All I am saying is that it exists in other places too and, if what you are concerned about is animals, it does not matter a fig where you start.

This discussion is becoming less and less about animals and more and more about perceived prejudices (and these seem to be more uninformed than informed opinions, to be honest, because so few people have been to the event)

Thanking you

Blowz

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:28 PM

Actually, I think it's much more about keeping things in perspective. As in, you can get all morally indignant about a couple of incidents at Appleby, but if your real issue is animal cruelty, there are industries in this country which have institutionalised and thrive on animal cruelty.

So if you're gonna start a crusade, doesn't it make more sense to start with the big boys, where your efforts are actually going to make a difference?

And maybe there's a teeeny bit of reluctance to bow to the sensationalism of one case which just HAPPENS to take place within the traveller community, when there are many more incidences taking place every minute in mainstream industries patronised by posh people.

Yeah, get Appleby shut down. But what have you actually accomplished, when the racing, farming and food industries carry on abusing hundreds of animals every day?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:35 PM

Don't want to shut Appleby or aything else down. Want then to thrive .. as traditions,,, as cultural ambassadors etc ... without cruelty.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:42 PM

Dick - most sports ban people for a minimum of two years.

Rio Ferdinand got a year's ban for not turning up for a drug test.

So why wasn't Frankie banned for taking drugs? Taking drugs to aid performance is cheating.

If you couldn't make a judgement on Dettori's horse why bring the subject up saying it looked alright on the side you could see.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:40 PM

because it did look alright on the side I could see,its what is not shown that is important,How can anyone make a judgement on what is not shown.
I brought it up because you were making a judgement,you have not examined the horse,nor has anyone on this forum.
you come out with ridiculous statements about racing and drugs that only illustrate your ignorance.
as a matter of fact, I would also like to see the whip banned from horse racing altogether.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 07:05 PM

Dick you didn't even see the horse - just a photograph for goodness sake. And you accuse me of being ridiculous?

I didn't need to examine Frankie Dettori's horse - he was referred to the HRA for excessive use of the whip. He has been banned for it before.

People in sport generally get banned for two years for drug taking. In racing as you said Kieran Fallon got six months. Frankie Dettori got nothing.

Those are facts Dick not assertions.

Now which of those do you disagree with?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:23 PM

Blowzabella

The Traveller Culture is one 'we' would like to be associated with as it is compatible with our ideas about traditions and minority cultures, therefore we are reluctant to chastise it without further investigation.

Your original post and the title of the thread held the seeds of the idea that, on the basis of this one incident, the whole existence of the Appleby Horse Fair was open to question. Others took this theme further and laid the blame squarely on the whole Traveller community and stated that "they" should have their fair taken away from them.
A number of people, including myself, pointed out that National Hunt racing and three day eventing had far higher horse fatalities to the point that they are considered routine and an inevitable part of the "sport". Those attacking Appleby seemed singularly unimpressed by this. Grimmy in particular seems to think that these deaths are less blameworthy because they are accidents rather than the result of deliberate or reckless behaviour; a view that I find bizarre. Deliberately sending a horse round a course that has killed many horses before sounds very reckless to me.
It is evident from the accounts that the behaviour of this young man did not meet with the approval of the other festival goers and he was lucky to escape a beating (if indeed he did). The carnage at events like Cheltenham Festival and the Grand National, on the other hand, seem to be accepted as normal.
This can only lead to the suspicion that the critics of Appleby are less interested in the welfare of horses than they are in the opportunity to attack the Traveller community.

Chastising an entire community for the behaviour of one individual is racism.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:47 AM

Dave. I disagree with your original statement,which was[In Most sports people get banned for using drugs,apparantly this doesnt apply in horse racing except if you drug the horses].This is untrue.
there have been nine jockeys[in England] that have tested positive for drug use in the last ten years,the frequency of drug testing on jockeys is being increased.
now can we stick to APPLEBY,if people wish to discuss racing then start a different thread.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:06 AM

Apprentice jockey David Long was banned for 18 days (described as a "long ban"!) for excessive use of the whip; flat jockey Robert Winston was banned for one year for race fixing.

It seems you can cheat and beat the living daylights out of a horse and not much happens - cheat by drugging the horse and you get a one year ban.

The point about jockeys testing positive for drugs (like Kieran Fallon) is that the crime is not sufficiently punished.

This is relevant to the Appleby question - see Snail's post

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail - PM
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 08:23 PM

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:10 AM

The BHS (British Horse Socitey) estimates that more than 100 horses die on the roads each year in accidents involving motor vehicles.

I repeat my point I made earlier, which contributors seem to shy away from, why are we not criticising motorist for their involvement in these accidents. Is it because we all like our cars too much and its easier to have a go at the organisers of equestrian sports when a horse is killed or injured.

I would also like to point out that at this year's Badminton horse trials, whilst two horses did die, most of the top competitors pulled out of the cross country phase because they considered the ground was too hard. Between the dressage and the cross country all the horses are inspected by three vets to ensure that they are fit to continue. Please do not assume that all of these people are uncaring.

How many horses at Appleby are inspected by vets before they are run-up for the buyers - NONE.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:56 AM

Folkie Dave ,if that is what you meant, youshould have said that in the first place,instead of your original post[relating to jockeys and drugs] ,which was uninformed codswallop.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:31 AM

"Grimmy in particular seems to think that these deaths are less blameworthy because they are accidents rather than the result of deliberate or reckless behaviour; a view that I find bizarre. Deliberately sending a horse round a course that has killed many horses before sounds very reckless to me."

I draw a very definite distinction, TheSnail, between bashing a horse over the head with a crowbar (which I have personally witnessed at Appleby) and sending a horse around a course where it may be injured or killed. I condemn both acts, but I know which is worse, because there is a mental process involved too.

And actually guys, YES - I CAN just talk about animal cruelty at Appleby here, because THAT'S WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT. Feel free to take Dick's advice and start another thread if you want to (especially if you've never actually been to Appleby). I will be happy to contribute to it and would support you in your condemnation of cruelty wherever it exists, including a ban on horse racing.

You may have your 'suspicions', TheSnail. So do I. Whenever the word 'tradition' crops up a certain group of people start to circle the wagons and a 'don't mention the war' mentality creeps in.

As soon as I started to document illegal and cruel practises going on at Appleby we had the 'oh, it's a one-off', 'it's out of proportion', 'it's not as bad as ......' and of course, when all else fails, 'this is racism' (doesn't that word just slip out so easily?).

Let me make my position crystal clear:

There have been repeated incidents of extreme animal cruelty year on year at Appleby Horse Fair.
These incidents have been largely ignored, hushed up or 'undetected' by the authorities.
This is unacceptable and must cease.
The fact that these incidents have been perpetrated by travellers, or taken place as part of a tradition, is an immense irrelevance.
I want Appleby Horse Fair to continue.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:14 AM

Grimmy

bashing a horse over the head with a crowbar (which I have personally witnessed at Appleby)

Where the blue blind blazes did that come from? Why haven't you mentioned this before? Were there any other witnesses? What was their reaction? Did you report it to the police or the RSPCA?

YES - I CAN just talk about animal cruelty at Appleby here, because THAT'S WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT.

If you're going to be that picky, it's actually about the single drowning incident. If you are broadening it to cruelty at Appleby in general, then comparisons with other horse events are perfectly legitimate.

Whenever the word 'tradition' crops up

I don't think I've mentioned tradition. Cheltenham Festival and the Grand National are traditions in their own way.

There have been repeated incidents of extreme animal cruelty year on year at Appleby Horse Fair.
These incidents have been largely ignored, hushed up or 'undetected' by the authorities.
This is unacceptable and must cease.

So what else are you doing about it apart from arguing here which can achieve nothing to stop it?

The fact that these incidents have been perpetrated by travellers, or taken place as part of a tradition, is an immense irrelevance.

Actually, it's implicit in the title of the thread.

I want Appleby Horse Fair to continue.

Why, if you are convinced the cruelty is a fundamental part of it?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:51 AM

TheSnail

Did you report it to the police or the RSPCA?
OF COURSE I DID. By the time I'd found a police officer, and by the time he decided to do something about it, the horse had been 'spirited away' (happens a lot).

I don't think I've mentioned tradition
I don't think I mentioned that you did.

Actually, it's implicit in the title of the thread.
Who's being picky now?

So what else are you doing about it apart from arguing here which can achieve nothing to stop it?
I wondered when that would come. I refuse to answer. Why are you arguing?

Why, if you are convinced the cruelty is a fundamental part of it?
I said no such thing. I want the Fair to continue, but not at any price. The cruelty must stop.

Just out of interest - why are you so belligerent towards someone who shares your abhorrence of horse cruelty?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 12:31 PM

Grimmy

Why are you arguing?

Read my post of 20 Jun 07 - 08:23 PM

Just out of interest - why are you so belligerent towards someone who shares your abhorrence of horse cruelty?

My problem is, that your abhorrence of horse cruelty (and that of several other posters to this thread) seems to be very selective. You are passionately concerned about Appleby Horse Fair but dismissive of the much higher death rate at respectable, establishment events. (Two deaths at this years 3 day Badminton horse trials for instance.) As I have said, that raises the suspicion that some on this list are more concerned about the people they see as responsible than the horses. Nothing you have said recently has allayed that suspicion. (Lizzie Cornish seems to have gone a bit quiet.)

While I am as concerned as anyone about cruelty to horses, what I am more concerned about is infiltration of the folk scene by the right wing who see it as an opportunity to further their cause. If that is not your position, I apologise, but I could do with some reassurance.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:30 PM

Lizzie Cornish seems to have gone a bit quiet

So, remarkably has ShockedandAppalledinReading.

Still no doubt she/they will be back.......

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 06:22 AM

what I am more concerned about is infiltration of the folk scene by the right wing

Well well. So there it is.

I suggest you get back behind your circle of wagons, take your paranoia and your twisted imaginings with you, and leave this thread to those who actually care about the welfare of horses.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 06:52 AM

I had a chat about Appleby (among other things) last night with a travelling gentleman who frequents my village. He is a lovely man, who has only missed Appleby twice in his 60-odd years. He travels with a traditional vardo and horses most of the time, and is a horse breeder. Two of his horses were sold at Appleby this year.


We talked about the drowning incident. He told me, first of all, that the news reports about ducking the horse's heads under water as a regular activity are rubbish. He said, "As soon as that horse's ears went under water, it was going to drown. You never duck a horse's head completely under the water like that."

I'm not a horse person, so I can't vouch for the truth in that statement. But I'm bowing to his superior knowledge.

He also said that the habit of riding the horses up and down, hard, and knackering them to the point of exhaustion and ill health, is something that's come about in "the younger generation. A travelling man's horses are his life. He won't do anything to harm them. But these youngsters, the way they ride them at Appleby...that should be stopped."

Which I found interesting. I didn't ask about other types of abuse of horses, as these are delicate subjects and have to be approached carefully. But I thought it was interesting to add the perspective of someone from the travelling community.

He also told me that the drowned horse had only just been bought for £16,000.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 07:24 AM

Thanks for that Ruth. It's good to hear all sides of the story. It coincides with my own experiences of talking with the older travellers, who love and value their horses - it's the younger generation causing the problems.

The question is how to stop the abuse. If the authorites come down hard (and they may well after this year's bad publicity), then that could make the problem worse. A lot of the 'dodgy' goings-on take place away from the public gaze, a mob-handed approach may well drive the culprits further underground.

Ideally, the travellers should police themselves but, as they come to Appleby from all over the place, I don't know how that would work.

I hope a solution can be found soon, because the situation seems to be getting worse.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:12 AM

As it happens, I'm going to see George again this evening to record some reminiscences (and hopefully some songs, if he's in the mood). If we get round to Appleby again I'll ask him what he thinks. After all, he said "it ought to be stopped." I wonder if he has any ideas about who should stop it, and how?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM

I'd certainly be interested to hear what he has to say, Ruth. The lack of proper control has dogged the event for donkeys' years:

"APPLEBY horse fair cannot be allowed to carry on "in an uncontrolled and unacceptable manner" and changes must be made to protect public safety, Eden district councillors will hear Thursday night.
Concerns about lack of organisation, management and serious safety risks at Britain's largest horse fair, which attracts thousands of travellers, gypsy horse dealers and visitors every second week in June, will be outlined to members of the environment committee".

That was back in 2003!

The Town Council, which actually owns Fair Hill, has washed its hands
of the whole affair. I think they're scared of possible legal ramifications if ever the balloon goes up.

Your friend George sounds a decent bloke, I hope you manage to squeeze some songs out of him!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 10:39 AM

Decent doesn't begin to describe. He's a gentleman in every sense of the word.

I think one of the things that concerns people who might be reading and responsding to this thread (I know it's something that concerns me) is that if you start talking about policing and regulating one traditional custom, what's to stop all the others coming under scrutiny? If you've ever been to any of the traditional football games, for instance, you'll know that they're hardly the sanitised, folked-up, gentrified affairs that some first-time visitors may expect. Some of them are pretty red in tooth and claw; many involve a lot of drunkenness, injury to participants, and picturesque villages drowning in litter and filth.

But the thing about these events is that they haven't been taken over by "folkies" - they're folk events precisely because they really belong to the people, and because this is the way they have ALWAYS been conducted. This is England's living folk heritage, precisely because it's not folkies who do it and because it's not been regulated and sanitised.

I don't approve of animal cruelty. And I still believe that if abuse of horses is the crux of this issue, there are much worse institutionalised offenders than the participants at Appleby - numbers alone tell you that. But on the other hand, it's dangerous to turn a blind eye in the interest of preserving tradition. That's why the issues of who should be responsible for regulating certain activities at the fair, and how it could be done, is of paramount importance.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Grimmy
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:47 PM

Ruth, I agree with much of what you say. There is a certain 'robustness' associated with the Appleby tradition which I would not wish it to lose.

But there must always be a balance - the feelings and sensibilities of the onlookers and the local residents cannot be ignored. Not to mention the law of the land. It is my opinion that, in recent years certainly, the excesses of a youthful minority have gone too far.

The cruelty and suffering that have taken place are not part of the tradition. Indeed they serve only to bring that tradition into disrepute. And therein lies the danger - it's not the number of horses which die every year, it's the manner of their deaths.

Public opinion is a fickle creature. An animal-loving nation which tacitly accepts horse racing deaths, yet demands the banning of fox hunting, will not baulk at calling for an end to the Appleby tradition if it perceives that the deaths are unnecessary and preventable.

I just hope that something is done about it soon, because people are not going to tolerate many more incidents such as the dreadful one that occurred this year.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 12:01 PM

Thanks for your comments, Ruth - it is good to hear what a member of the travelling comminity had to say about it and it concurrs with my own thoughts on the event.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 07:17 PM

Grimmy

I suggest you get back behind your circle of wagons, take your paranoia and your twisted imaginings with you, and leave this thread to those who actually care about the welfare of horses.

Well, you did ask.

I'm sorry you felt the need to respond in that manner. I have done my best to communicate in as polite a way as I could in the face of some very disturbing statements.

May I remind you of some of the things you have said?

I've witnessed horses being kicked, punched, head-butted, whipped, beaten with sticks, run into the ground.
Indeed, the reason I no longer attend is because of the mindless cruelty inflicted on those poor beasts YEAR AFTER YEAR.
I can also tell you that you won't get many eye-witness accounts from the local residents (many of whom are my relatives) because they stay in their homes with all the windows and doors locked during the fair week.
That's the 'reality' of Appleby Horse Fair.

The RSPCA and the local police are sh*t scared to intervene in case they provoke an 'incident'.
Besides, the travellers are very adept (having been doing it since 1685) at conducting their activities out of sight of the authorities. There is an 'official' fair for the benefit of the visitors and an 'unofficial' one for the serious dealing - and that's the one very few people get to see.

Where are the dog fighting images? The sheep stealing pics? The drunken fighting photos? The cottages with ivy around the door and human excrement on the lawn?
For a proper balanced view, speak to the locals as well as the visitors. Except that they'll still be clearing up the mess for the next two weeks.

You also cited the following web pages. Could you explain what they have to do with cruelty to horses?

http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/search/display.var.951592.0.appleby_horse_fair_arrest.php
http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/search/display.var.500103.0.incidents_mar_horse_fair_success.php
http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co.uk/search/display.var.497266.0.fire_crews_attacked_at_appleby_fair.php

You say "If we're including accidents, then my figures go through the roof.", yet you include these horse deaths amongst the Appleby score -

On Tuesday (June 6) a horse, which was being ridden by a traveller, was killed after it ran out in front of a Land Rover Discovery driven by a 19-year-old woman from Ingleton at Devil's Bridge, near Kirkby Lonsdale.

Police also believe that a horse killed by a van on the A65 at Newby, near Ingleton, belonged to a traveller.

In your more recent postings -

it's not the number of horses which die every year, it's the manner of their deaths.

So what do you really care about, the horses or the motivation of their owners?

An animal-loving nation .......... will not baulk at calling for an end to the Appleby tradition if it perceives that the deaths are unnecessary and preventable.

What are you saying, that the deaths in National Hunt and Cheltenham Festival and Badminton are "necessary and unpreventable"?

While the incident at Appleby was clearly appalling, the Fair seems to have a far better record than the "establishment" horse events. Please decide exactly what you are attacking.

As for being paranoid about right wing infiltration, I've a few issues to work out locally but I may be starting a new thread on the subect.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Appleby Horse Fair: A Tradition Too Far?
From: The PA
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 03:20 AM

I would completely dispute the price of £16,000.00 for a coloured cob. These horses, considered by some (unfairly I may add)to be the mongrels of the equine world, can be picked up anywhere for £50.00 to £500.00. You would expect to pay £16,000.00 for a talented showjumper, eventer or dressage horse. This throws into doubt the rest of the comments made by this 'traveller', that he's a 'horse breeder', not something that can be managed well if you are on the move, where do you keep the mare when she's heavily in foal, how do you manage the stallion, where is the foal born - at the side of the road. As for a horse drowning if its ears go under the water - not true. Horses are actually fair swimmers if not interfered with by people.