BS: If Russia didn't do it..?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:47 AM

if Russia did do it.

not a lot we or anybody else can do about it.
we've been fantasizing about our agents and assassins doing the business over there - james bond, george smiley, harry palmer etc for years.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 11:58 AM

One thing that can be done Al is freezing Putin's foreign accounts. It is estimated that he has some 200 billion dollars salted away. That would hit him where it hurts.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 12:33 PM

Dave,
but not heard why dropping bombs on another lot of innocent civilians is a stupid statement yet.

That is because no-one has suggested doing such an evil thing.

PFR,
I reckon any politician who declares war should be immediately arrested for war crimes...

Was Britain wrong to declare war on Hitler in WW2?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 12:41 PM

No I don't 'capish' BB. Nor do I speak faux gangster. Are you saying that there have been no civilian casualties in the attacks of the 'allies' on eastern countries. I find that rather difficult to believe. No innocent civilians killed in Iraq? Palestine? Afghanistan? Are you sure?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 12:43 PM

One thing for certain is future [if there is any future beyond this generation...???] historians are going to be well buggered
trying to understand this era of internet accusations, false news, and even more dishonest than ever politicians...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 12:55 PM

BTW bobad, I agree with your last post. Far better than lobbing bombs over the fence.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:20 PM

Did the Russians not announce not so long ago that a poison gas false flag event would occur?
Each time the US talks about de-escalating operations in Syria,up pops another gas attack, just in time.
If Assad is winning the battle, why throw away the war by gassing your own people.

Like novichok, no need for evidence before taking action.

Someone, somewhere desperately wants war. Everyone is getting boxed into a corner. Russia says there will be consequences.

Looks like a situation similar to events preceding WW1 is fast developing. I hope I am proved totally wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:29 PM

We can all agree on that last sentiment, Iains. Well, I guess we can?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM

Well Dave perhaps if I am right we can hope we both end up as a radioactive mote in the eventual winners eye!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:40 PM

I was a student during the Falklands and Greenham Common era...

A fatalistic sense that "the end of the world is nigh" has been too deeply etched into Psyche of my generation...
So much so, like many of my contemporaries, I decided in my 20s I could never bring children into this world...

Not a very healthy outlook climate to grow up under...
and I can empathise with today's students increasingly turning to Corbyn
for probably very similar fearful reasons....

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 01:49 PM

It's a very tough call. I am far from saying that Russia and Syria are innocent. I am sure they are both guilty of many abuses. But so are many others, including some of our so called allies. I have no idea what the truth of this matter is. Very few do, including everyone on here. Well, unless someone here is a top security analyst with the highest clearance and too much time on their hands! What I am pretty sure of though is that if people keep baiting the bear, the bear will bite.

Then again, no one really knows if I am only saying that because I am a Russian spy ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:07 PM

But so are many others, including some of our so called allies.

Who else is using nerve gas and other chemical weapons? No-one Dave.
If its use becomes acceptable in conflicts, the world becomes a worse place.
Using it should bring consequences to the perpetrators. Some evils can not be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:41 PM

Wouldn't it be good if the leaders of nations would get into the ring and slug it out:-) Who would you back? Trump or Putin? I reckon May would take 'em both:-) Sadly, although I would back him in most circumstances, I wouldn't hold out much for Corbyn's chances. Unless he was in a tag team with Johnny Two Jags. Xi Jinping is probably a King Fu master. Looks a bit like Jackie Chan anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:49 PM

"Are you saying that there have been no civilian casualties in the attacks of the 'allies' on eastern countries. I find that rather difficult to believe. No innocent civilians killed in Iraq? Palestine? Afghanistan? Are you sure?"


I have said nothing of the sort.


But the numbers killed because we did NOT intervene is known- 2 million in Cambodia, 800,000 in Rwanda. Add the 2 million Armenians, the 6 million Jews, the 2 million or so Gypsies....

Are you saying we could not have saved some of them if we had gone to war at the time?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:53 PM

DtG - yeah... but which one would smear Nobblechoc [or whatever Porton Down claims it to be]
all over the knuckles of his/her boxing gloves
while the others have only hidden horse shoes in theirs...!!???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 02:59 PM

Bruce - I reckon I can distinguish between 'Going to war'
and 'fighting for a greater good to prevent or curtail war'...

Trouble is, a 'world police army' is a great dream, but in practice...?????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:04 PM

Are you saying we could not have saved some of them if we had gone to war at the time?

Right back at you. I have said nothing of the sort.

But let's stop the pretence of there being no collateral damage.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:09 PM

There is a difference between "no" and "acceptable for the lives saved that would have been otherwise killed." collateral damage.


Let's stop pretending that if we do nothing, nothing bad will happen.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:31 PM

Who advocates doing nothing? I refer you to my post of 10 Apr 18 - 09:58 AM

I am pretty sure i know which is the more rational decision. And it is not to do nothing, it is to get to the truth.

It is pretty obvious that war does not solve problems. I don't pretend I have the solution but to keep making the same mistake over and over again is akin to lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:41 PM

I feel sure that if we put our minds to it here we could sort out the worlds problems. On second thoughts, I don't think slugging it out would be acceptable. How about we put all the world leaders in a big room and tell them they cannot have any tea until they have made friends with each other?

PFR - I am sure you have a wealth of ideas!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:42 PM

War does not always solve problems, but it can.


Just ask the Carthaginians. Or the Trojans.

The THREAT of war has solved far more than the actual war- BUT the threat is only effective if it is believed. The MOST expensive military is the second-best-All it can do is make it expensive to beat that side.
That can sometimes prevent conflict, by setting a high price on the winning side.

The best will prevent conflict in more cases by demonstrating the that cost of conflict is too high for the losing side to accept.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:42 PM

Maybe if we got all their Mums or wives together and got them to tell their sons or husbands to stop being naughty boys?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:43 PM

Re your 10 Apr 18 - 03:41 PM

No bathroom breaks until they solve the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:47 PM

War has never solved the problem. It just replaces it with another one. Whoever is the aggressor may be at fault but that is not the point. There must be a better way.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:49 PM

Now we are getting into the swing of it BB, but no bathroom breaks? Wouldn't that just make a mess on the floor?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:54 PM

That is a wish, not a proven fact. I agree it would be nice if it were so, but fail to see any demonstrations that it applies to Man as a species.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:55 PM

re 10 Apr 18 - 03:49 PM

If so, let them stay in the room anyway. ...Maybe make sure the ceiling is not too high, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 03:58 PM

Might end up with the tallest leader getting his/her way, thought...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:00 PM

This could all go horribly wrong:

https://ahvalnews.com/syria/us-t

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/04/10/harry-s-truman-carrier-strike-group-deploy-norfolk.html

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:05 PM

Dave the Gnome
you're OK.
You're not a spy.
Of course you knew that
so why I said that
I know not why.

Ah now I remember
The victims are well
enough to testify.

..................


It's Iaians who is a propagandist using fake news.
He's upped his game,
by listing the sins of western folly and regime change
but

he's still the same.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:15 PM

The Sun-2 hours ago
"As he spoke a US Navy destroyer, the USS Donald Cook, was underway in the eastern Mediterranean after completing a port call in Cyprus. The Arleigh ... Meanwhile USS Harry Truman aircraft carrier strike group was on its way to the Syrian coast armed with cruise missiles and an array of warplanes."

Wish it was false news. This could end in tears.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:43 PM

Iains daring a teuton gluten Putin or a tiny timid Trump to go nuclear is not what you should do. Not even vicariously

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:49 PM

BTW bobad, I agree with your last post. Far better than lobbing bombs over the fence.

Freezing Putin's account would be in response to the Salisbury attack. Bombing Assad's machinery of war and its infrastructure would be the response to him gassing his people.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:57 PM

It is easy to be sure you are right when it is not your own life you are putting on the line. Sadly, in this case, it could be all our lives. All because you believe one despot over another.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:04 PM

Donuel your cryptic responses look like you treat it as a game. Perhaps you cannot access the real news where you reside. Perhaps as your country has not had collateral damage since the civil war then you think you can trivialise what is happening an ocean away.
    The Cuban missile crisis was an insignificance compared to the place we are at today. We have surrounded the russian bear with 400 +bases and now we are goading it. The bully on the block may find life becoming very serious in a heartbeat. Others can draw lines in the sand as well.
Do you think they merely bluff?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:13 PM

Dave, similar to your last post I was talking to a impoverished conservative who was excited about US attacks on Syria today. I asked him if he had any skin in the game like children. He said he was too poor to ever have any and I sounded like one of them liberals. After he blamed Obama we parted peacefully.

Trump is incensed today so Iains warning may not be as inflammatory as I first said.

Tears and fears from screaming ash
WWIII has come to pass
It was Truman who first used this junk
Now its his ship that is first sunk
What happens next will go untold
All we know is that it could unfold

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 05:15 PM

This speaks to the difference between you and me gnome.

"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."

Albert Einstein

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 06:53 PM

From: Iains - PM
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 04:15 PM

The Sun-2 hours ago
"As he spoke a US Navy destroyer, the USS Donald Cook, was underway in the eastern Mediterranean after completing a port call in Cyprus. The Arleigh ... Meanwhile USS Harry Truman aircraft carrier strike group was on its way to the Syrian coast armed with cruise missiles and an array of warplanes."

Wish it was false news. This could end in tears. Their GPS is...
_______________________


Loose lips sink ships Iains even though I am anti war.
However that Sun story is not searchable on my internet.
fake

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 18 - 09:08 PM

What I am pretty sure of though is that if people keep baiting the bear, the bear will bite.

puffed up bellicose buffoon Boris really does need to take a listen to The Lion And Albert...!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 01:52 AM

I know it is difficult to follow all the posts in the thread bobad so I will just refer you to my post of 10 Apr 18 - 03:31 PM where I make it quite clear, for the second time, that I do not advocate doing nothing. I am suggesting that there must be better way than violence. Do you disagree with that? If so, I think that may be a bigger difference.

BTW, try Dave or DtG if you want to abbreviate. They are both shorter and using 'gnome' just makes you sound like a school bully.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:06 AM

"However that Sun story is not searchable on my internet.
fake"

False news, or censored news. In the present situation what scenario is the most likely? It seems some of the sources I read have since "evaporated".

The great game is all smoke and mirrors. However this time around smoke is likely to be in the ascendancy.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6019299/uss-harry-s-truman-missiles-deployed-mediterranean-syria/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:03 AM

For Donuel.
strange those pesky ruskies know more about deployments than you do.
What does that tell you about your society?


https://www.rt.com/usa/423744-us-aircraft-truman-syria/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 05:07 AM

I do not advocate doing nothing. I am suggesting that there must be better way than violence. Do you disagree with that?

What exactly do you suggest?
Chamberlain tried very hard to avoid using violence to curb Hitler, and how did that turn out?

Obama made chemical weapons use a red line, but did nothing when it was crossed so why would they not keep on doing it?
Do we want chemical weapons to become normalised, or should the war criminals have to face reprisals as a deterrant to the use of such proscribed weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:47 AM

Well Kieth you lie by omission when you say Obama did nothing. He took the Syria conflict to Congress and asked for a declaration of WAR.

Congress spoke or rather mumbled ,er um maybe but not with my vote.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:50 AM

Don't go down that route, Donuel. Therein lies madness...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 08:15 AM

Yes Donuel and the Russians and Assad took that as a green light to gas the Syrians at will - more than seventy times to date reported. Meanwhile Iran is using the lack of response from the West to arm Hezbollah with missiles against Israel and is entrenching itself militarily in Syria with the aim of attacking Israel. At least the Israelis are backing up their vow to disallow this from happening by taking action against it. The thing the West doesn't seem to understand or chooses to ignore is that bullies like Assad, Putin and the Ayatollahs of Iran see lack of response as weakness and are exploiting it to their advantage as much as they can, meanwhile the bodies of the innocent pile up.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 08:23 AM

Fair point Donuel, and it was not just Congress who refused to support punitive action.
The British Parliament also refused to stand with him (as did everyone on Mudcat except for Jim Carrol and me.)

Dave, what route are you warning Donuel not to go down?
Expressing an opinion you disagree with?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 08:24 AM

...Jim Carrol, Bobad and me.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 08:31 AM

Some of us might see it as American hegemony not seeing the buffers ahead. As I have said before Russia and Iran have a legitimate presence in Syria. Any other invaders have declared war by illegal aggression.
The coalition no longer bother with proof or a UN mandate to legitimise their actions.
There have been rumours in the past of the Chinese deploying troops to Syria, although this has been denied.

But:

"While China has traditionally stayed out of the Syrian conflict directly, the Asian country has intervened to combat the spread of the Islamic East Turkestan network that has found its way to not only Syria, but Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Estimates suggesting that there could be around 2,500 of the foreign fighters in Syria aiding and assisting other jihadist elements within the war-torn Levantine country."

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 09:50 AM

200!