BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 03 Oct 04 - 08:13 PM

Terry:

How very disappointing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 12:35 AM

In a well-written editorial, Bob Herbert of the New York Times discusses Mister Bush's problem connecting to reality, with specifics, and offers an explanation as to why he lost the first debate.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 02:59 PM

From the Editors of The New Republic, a subscription only magazine:

Fool Me Once
by the Editors



All politicians stretch truth to present accomplishments in the most appealing light. What President Bush has told the country over the past week about the deeply troubled Iraq occupation, however, is different. While an increasingly strong insurgency murdered 250 Iraqis last week, he portrayed the occupation as gliding to success. Last week, Bush told the Manchester Union-Leader, "I'm pleased with the progress." The template the administration is using for its portrayal of Iraq is the one the Johnson administration perfected during Vietnam: To win reelection, Bush is lying.

Not only has there been no recent progress in Iraq, there has been much backsliding over the past six months. Two weeks ago, a research team from the Center for Strategic and International Studies (csis) released the most comprehensive study about events on the ground. Originally invited to study Iraq at the behest of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, csis said, "In every sector we looked at, we saw backward movement in recent months." This is the opposite of "progress," and the administration knows it. In a July National Intelligence Estimate (nie), its own analysts reported that the best outcome in Iraq is a barely contained insurgency and tenuous stability. In other words, what last year was among the worst-case scenarios is now the best.

The president has a response to those who honestly depict the situation in Iraq: dismissal. "Just guessing," Bush shrugged at the NIE. The Iraqis "are defying the dire predictions of a lot of people by moving toward democracy," he said last week. In fact, the only predictions Iraqis have defied are his own. First they defied his prediction that they would accept instantaneous post-Saddam rule by expatriates. Then they defied his prediction that they would accept an open-ended occupation. Then they defied his prediction that they would accept an interim government chosen by convoluted caucuses. Then they defied his prediction that the U.S. military could rely on poorly trained Iraqi forces to combat the insurgency. Then they defied his prediction that the transfer of notional sovereignty to the interim government would destroy the insurgency's popular support.

And now it is dawning on observers that the latest prediction Iraqis will defy is that they are "moving toward democracy." "The Americans have created a series of fictional [election] dates and events in order to delude themselves," Ghassan Atiyya, director of the Iraq Foundation for Development and Democracy, recently told Newsweek. Even American ground commander Thomas Metz, commenting on the fact that most of Al Anbar Province is controlled by the insurgency, admitted, "I don't think today you could hold elections."

In response, the administration is telegraphing that, should it win reelection, it will insist on Iraqi elections nonetheless and call them legitimate, even if they are unfree and unfair. In a recent address to the National Press Club, Rumsfeld shrugged, "I've never seen an election anywhere that's perfect," as if Iraq were West Palm Beach. Iraqis are more honest. Interim President Ghazi Al Yawer declared last week, "We do not want to have elections for the sake of elections. It's the outcome of the elections that's most important." By which he surely means an outcome that will preserve his power. For that reason, the Association of Muslim Scholars, which represents about 3,000 Sunni mosques, has announced it will boycott the vote. Sheik Abdul Satar Abdul Jabbar of the Association told The New York Times, "If the election goes forward anyway, the body that will be elected will not represent the country." This decision virtually ensures that elections could move Iraq closer to civil war. With most Sunnis refusing to cast ballots, the new government would lack legitimacy and take on a sectarian character, fostering even greater factional conflict. As Atiyya recently warned, "Badly prepared elections, rather than healing wounds, will open them."

There are brave Republicans who understand how disastrous the Bush administration's Iraq policy has proved. Referring to Bush's predictions, the GOP chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Richard Lugar, remarked, "The nonsense of all that is apparent." But the nonsense has continued. Bush has enlisted Iyad Allawi to travel to Washington this week and claim the administration is delivering victory in Iraq. Unless more Republicans join Lugar and put truth above party, the lies will continue through Election Day and beyond.

the Editors

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 08:22 AM

This CapitolHill Blue article reports negatively on Rumsfeld for flip-flopping on the Al Quaeda-Iraq issue.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 09:30 AM

"The proliferation of war, of weapons of mass destruction, of divisive fundamentalism (east and west), of aggressive unilateralism as opposed to a binding multilateralism. The end game on this Grand Chessboard is not a Pax Americana (an American Empire) as envisioned first by Zbigniew Brzezinski and now by PNAC (the Project for the New American Century), but a world in shambles, pocked by pocket wars, decimated by regional and national poverty and disease, a world of haves and have-nots, walled in or walled out by mutual fear and disrespect. Rather than crossing the human divides, we are widening them, like so many tribes stranded on ice floes in a roiling ocean. If we are to survive as a species we need to reach a common higher ground. The right choice, like voting or not, like which candidate is the sane one to vote for, is ours, and at this point not just a privilege, but an existential necessity. "

Jerry Mazza is a freelance writer who resides in New York City. Contact him at [e-mail].

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 01:39 PM

George Soros argues clearly why it is important to evict Bush from the White House in this article on his website.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 04 - 11:54 PM

One of the most interesting questions for this thread is what Saddam Hussein thought the Bush Administration and its predecessors were really doing.

An interesting compilation of what he thought and how he bluffed (and why it backfired on him) can be found in this article in the LA Times.

It is possible that much of what I have thought of as sheer malice on the part of Bush and his administration is actually attributable to the sad fact that no-one with enough edge was around to help them figure out what the hell was really going on with this guy.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 04 - 12:34 AM

Scientists on Bush's Policies


"Across a broad range of issues—from childhood lead poisoning and mercury emissions to climate change, reproductive health, and nuclear weapons—the administration is distorting and censoring scientific findings that contradict its policies; manipulating the underlying science to align results with predetermined political decisions; and undermining the independence of science advisory panels by subjecting panel nominees to political litmus tests that have little or no bearing on their expertise; nominating non-experts or underqualified individuals from outside the scientific mainstream or with industry ties; as well as disbanding science advisory committees altogether." - Union of Concerned Scientists, a group that includes 20 Nobel Prize laureates and 19 National Medal of Science honorees, in its statement "Scientific Integrity in Policymaking." [Union of Concerned Scientists]


"The administration plan would hurt public health and help big polluters by weakening, delaying and diluting cuts in power plants' sulfur, nitrogen and mercury pollution compared to timely enforcement of current law. The administration plan would roll back the current law's public health safeguards to protect local air quality, curb pollution from upwind states, and protect our national parks. Tens of millions of people would be denied clean air, even as late as 2020 and beyond." - The American Lung Association, in its "State of the Air 2004" report [American Lung Association]

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 11:39 AM

Excerpted from the NY Times editorial coming out in support of Kerry


John Kerry for President

Published: October 17, 2004



Senator John Kerry goes toward the election with a base that is built more on opposition to George W. Bush than loyalty to his own candidacy. But over the last year we have come to know Mr. Kerry as more than just an alternative to the status quo. We like what we've seen. He has qualities that could be the basis for a great chief executive, not just a modest improvement on the incumbent.

We have been impressed with Mr. Kerry's wide knowledge and clear thinking - something that became more apparent once he was reined in by that two-minute debate light. He is blessedly willing to re-evaluate decisions when conditions change. And while Mr. Kerry's service in Vietnam was first over-promoted and then over-pilloried, his entire life has been devoted to public service, from the war to a series of elected offices. He strikes us, above all, as a man with a strong moral core.
•


There is no denying that this race is mainly about Mr. Bush's disastrous tenure. Nearly four years ago, after the Supreme Court awarded him the presidency, Mr. Bush came into office amid popular expectation that he would acknowledge his lack of a mandate by sticking close to the center. Instead, he turned the government over to the radical right.

Mr. Bush installed John Ashcroft, a favorite of the far right with a history of insensitivity to civil liberties, as attorney general. He sent the Senate one ideological, activist judicial nominee after another. He moved quickly to implement a far-reaching anti-choice agenda including censorship of government Web sites and a clampdown on embryonic stem cell research. He threw the government's weight against efforts by the University of Michigan to give minority students an edge in admission, as it did for students from rural areas or the offspring of alumni.

When the nation fell into recession, the president remained fixated not on generating jobs but rather on fighting the right wing's war against taxing the wealthy. As a result, money that could have been used to strengthen Social Security evaporated, as did the chance to provide adequate funding for programs the president himself had backed. No Child Left Behind, his signature domestic program, imposed higher standards on local school systems without providing enough money to meet them.

If Mr. Bush had wanted to make a mark on an issue on which Republicans and Democrats have long made common cause, he could have picked the environment. Christie Whitman, the former New Jersey governor chosen to run the Environmental Protection Agency, came from that bipartisan tradition. Yet she left after three years of futile struggle against the ideologues and industry lobbyists Mr. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney had installed in every other important environmental post. The result has been a systematic weakening of regulatory safeguards across the entire spectrum of environmental issues, from clean air to wilderness protection.
•


The president who lost the popular vote got a real mandate on Sept. 11, 2001. With the grieving country united behind him, Mr. Bush had an unparalleled opportunity to ask for almost any shared sacrifice. The only limit was his imagination.

He asked for another tax cut and the war against Iraq.

The president's refusal to drop his tax-cutting agenda when the nation was gearing up for war is perhaps the most shocking example of his inability to change his priorities in the face of drastically altered circumstances. Mr. Bush did not just starve the government of the money it needed for his own education initiative or the Medicare drug bill. He also made tax cuts a higher priority than doing what was needed for America's security; 90 percent of the cargo unloaded every day in the nation's ports still goes uninspected.

Along with the invasion of Afghanistan, which had near unanimous international and domestic support, Mr. Bush and his attorney general put in place a strategy for a domestic antiterror war that had all the hallmarks of the administration's normal method of doing business: a Nixonian obsession with secrecy, disrespect for civil liberties and inept management.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: GUEST,Iconoclast is in Clifton TX not Crawford.
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 12:34 PM

The Lone Star Iconoclast, P.O. Box 420, Crawford, TX 76638

Has a po box in crawford so you woun't know that it is actually published by left wing extremists in Clifton Texas, in another county 25 miles away.

For inquiries, call [phone] or write to:
The Clifton Record
P.O. Box 353
Clifton, TX 76634
http://www.cliftonrecord.com/about.asp

Hmmm. The Clifton paper has the same phone number as the Iconoclast:


The Lone Star Iconoclast
P.O. Box 420
Crawford, TX 76638
We accept money orders, checks or cash with mail-in orders.
YOU CAN ALSO CALL US
WITH YOUR CREDIT CARD AT
[phone]
http://www.iconoclast-texas.com/subscribe.htm

I smell the pungent aroma of male cow feces.

Kerry edwards wil lower the cost of health care?
"Edwards' [1997] campaign rhetoric included a vow not to accept money from lobbyists or PACs. However, 86 percent of his Senate campaign was ultimately funded by the nation's most powerful special-interest group: personal-injury lawyers."

"In spite of his vocal opposition to PAC money, Edwards himself established a PAC in 2001: the New American Optimists (NAO). Nearly 70 percent (more than $4.1 million) of the NAO PAC's receipts have come from trial lawyers."

"Tab Turner, a fellow trial lawyer, donated a total of $200,000 to Edwards' campaign and PAC. Some contributions allegedly were in the name of several clerks in his law office. However, when investigations were made into the donations, more than one clerk revealed that they had made contributions to Edwards' campaign after Turner himself had assured them that they would be reimbursed—a practice that is forbidden by federal law. As a result, Edwards had to return $10,000 to employees of Turner & Associates. In spite of his legal background, Turner claimed that he was not aware that reimbursing his employees for their contributions was illegal."

"One of the leading asbestos litigation firms in the country—New York City-based Weitz & Luxenberg—contributed $34,250 in questionably raised employee donations to Edwards' presidential campaign."
http://www.thetruthabouttriallawyers.com/courtroom_roots.asp

Edwards blames Bush for the vaccine shortage but:
"Liability law appears to be a critical factor behind the vaccine shortage:
    As legal liabilities have chased many vaccine-makers out of the market, there are fewer manufacturers. This means less overall ability to produce additional doses, and less investment on new, faster ways to make vaccines.

    In the US about 185m people risk serious flu-related illness each year.

    At one time the US had 20 flu vaccine manufacturers. Today there are just four: Aventis, GlaxoSmithKline, Merck and Wyeth.

    After the second world war the science of cell cultures led a boom in vaccine production. But gradually profit margins thinned on vaccines, as the government became a big buyer of them. Increasing legal liability drove many makers out of the vaccine business.

    Today smaller biotech companies have entered the game. But they lack the capacity and the distribution to solve near-term shortages, experts say.

    "One of the problems with vaccines is you put them in healthy people," says Louis Galambos, history professor at Johns Hopkins University and an expert on vaccine manufacturing. "Now we're in a situation where we have too few producers."

    Congress passed a law in 1986 to limit liability on vaccines for children. There are no such liability limits for adults, however.

    Pharmaceuticals companies are inhibited by the particular structure of the US vaccine market, experts say. The US government is a large buyer of vaccines, leaving relatively poor profit margins on vaccines."
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2003/12/liability_and_f.html


Do you agree Amos?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 01:10 PM

OG,

you are supposed to let Amos be the voice of the Pop. The rest of us are all partisan extremists- HE has the only correct view of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:07 PM

Maureen Dowd does her nation proud by calling a spade a spade vis-a-vis the hypocrisy of th4e Catholic church in politics.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 02:59 PM

In an article about Being Addicted to 9-11, columnist THomas Friedman says it like it is with regard to the Administrations bizarre mindset.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 03:03 PM

OG:

Thanks for the hads up. I will be alert for future misstatements by that scurrilous young charmer. And he had such a nice smile, too!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 02:42 AM

Just as I thought 254 675 phome numbers are in Bosque County and Clifton Texas.

Crawford is in McLennan County and the phone numbers start with 254 486

So whoever says the Iconoclast newspaper is in Crawford is deceiving the American public with lies and distortions.

And my post above about the flu vaccine: that was written in 2003, long before Edwards blamed it on Bush

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 04:27 AM

Old Guy - I'm not sure if he blamed Bush or not but I do know this...

Supply is not the problem. The problem is the FDA. We have the same drug regulations in Canada and should be able to sell our extra million doses to the U.S. Its hung up in the FDA.

Bush said he was workin' on it with Canada in the last debate. Maybe he should be workin on the FDA. Even if he starts workin' on it today it will take three weeks to ready the shipment for delivery.

Do you really think Bush cares about you old guy? I think he cares more about securing the middle east for exploitation and controlling the world's food supply through biotechnology. I hate to disappoint you but he doesn't really care about your health.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 04:22 PM

Bill O'Reilly, one of the unofficial loudspoeakers for the militant right, had a few choice words to offer female staffer about his fantasies concerning the use of felafel in the shower.

Talk about a sordid bunch!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:26 AM

O'Reily is guilty as charged. A BANG the gavel.

Now fork over the $60 million.

Next case please.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:22 AM

HEy, hey, OG!! Now you're getting into the swing of it!! LOL!

The irony is that he has, himself, pilloried so many with such excoriating rhetoric, on so little evidence, so ruthlessly, that a dose of the same medicine is not inappropriate!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 11:18 AM

Summary of Bush accomplishments:

http://www.monkeydyne.com/bushresume/resume.html


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 11:36 AM

Earlier historical examples of Georgie's ravenous but underhanded duplicity -- wonder how the Mathes family feels about their ex-governor?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 03:16 PM

TEHRAN, Iran

Axis member backs Bush

"Iran is endorsing President George W. Bush. The head of Iran's security council said Tuesday that Bush's re-election was in Tehran's best interests, despite the administration's "axis of evil" label, accusations that Iran harbors Al Qaeda terrorists and threats of sanctions over the country's nuclear ambitions.


Historically, Democrats have harmed Iran more than Republicans, said Hasan Rowhani, head of the Supreme National Security Council, Iran's top security decision-making body.


Though Iran generally does not publicly wade into U.S. presidential politics, it has a history of preferring Republicans over Democrats, who tend to press human rights issues."

http://www.freep.com/news/politics/pols20e_20041020.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:57 AM

Richard Cohen of the Washington Post describes in wincing insight the fact that the Old Bush has vanished, and Kerry may well win the election. Full column here.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 03:19 PM

Youngstown's mayor endorses Bush
Amos 24x7

Tuesday, August 24, 2004
Associated Press

Youngstown, Ohio - The mayor of this Democratic stronghold known for its steel industry job losses endorsed President Bush's re-election on Monday.

"Although I have never publicly endorsed a presidential candidate, the significance of this election, an election which I view as the most important of my lifetime, has motivated me to acknowledge my support for President Bush," said Mayor George McKelvey, a Democrat in his second term.
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1093344920264290.xml

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 04:47 PM

Great -- the Youngstown mayor and the PResident of the United States and the Prime Minister of Iran all agree on something.

Seven Florida newspapers come out for John Kerry

Major papers endorse John Kerry

28 More Papers Endorse Kerry for President

Gold-MEdalist Olympians ENdorse Kerry

Newspapers Across Country Endorse Kerry

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 05:00 PM

Similar rejections of the Bush Administration's ham-handed charade can be found from the Boston Police, the Boston Globe, the Kansas City Star, Mrs. Christopher Reeves, the Navajo people's national Council, the New York Times, the Philadelphia Enquirer, the ex-Governor of Michigan, Milliken, the Saint-Louis Post-Dispatch,200 New Hampshire Republicans, the Oregonian, the Charlotte Observer, the Columbia Daily Tribune, John Eisenhower, (note spelling), Senator McCain's senior aide,and many others -- all referenced on this page for the day.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 09:56 PM

Amos:

You forgot the head honcho if the biggest country in the world, Pooty-poot Putin, endorses Bush. Was it Texas Barbeque, or Beslan?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 11:13 PM

Premier Putin, The Master of Democratic Process? You sure that's a point for your side?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:00 PM

Hunter S. Thompson's passion is almost metaphysically inspiring. Following excerpt is from this article in Rolling Stone.

Fear and Loathing, Campaign 2004

Dr. Hunter S. Thompson sounds off on the fun-hogs in the passing lane

By DR. HUNTER S. THOMPSON


Armageddon came early for George Bush this year, and he was not ready for it. His long-awaited showdowns with my man John Kerry turned into a series of horrible embarrassments that cracked his nerve and demoralized his closest campaign advisers. They knew he would never recover, no matter how many votes they could steal for him in Florida, where the presidential debates were closely watched and widely celebrated by millions of Kerry supporters who suddenly had reason to feel like winners.

Kerry came into October as a five-point underdog with almost no chance of winning three out of three rigged confrontations with a treacherous little freak like George Bush. But the debates are over now, and the victor was clearly John Kerry every time. He steamrollered Bush and left him for roadkill.


Did you see Bush on TV, trying to debate? Jesus, he talked like a donkey with no brains at all. The tide turned early, in Coral Gables, when Bush went belly up less than halfway through his first bout with Kerry, who hammered poor George into jelly. It was pitiful. . . . I almost felt sorry for him, until I heard someone call him "Mister President," and then I felt ashamed.


Karl Rove, the president's political wizard, felt even worse. There is angst in the heart of Texas today, and panic in the bowels of the White House. Rove has a nasty little problem, and its name is George Bush. The president failed miserably from the instant he got onstage with John Kerry. He looked weak and dumb. Kerry beat him like a gong in Coral Gables, then again in St. Louis and Tempe -- and that is Rove's problem: His candidate is a weak-minded frat boy who cracks under pressure in front of 60 million voters.


That is an unacceptable failure for hardballers like Rove and Dick Cheney. On the undercard in Cleveland against John Edwards, Cheney came across as the cruel and sinister uberboss of Halliburton. In his only honest moment during the entire debate, he vowed, "We have to make America the best place in the world to do business."


Bush signed his own death warrant in the opening round, when he finally had to speak without his TelePrompTer. It was a Cinderella story brought up to date in Florida that night -- except this time the false prince turned back into a frog.


Immediately after the first debate ended I called Muhammad Ali at his home in Michigan, but whoever answered said the champ was laughing so hard that he couldn't come to the phone. "The debate really cracked him up," he chuckled. "The champ loves a good ass-whuppin'. He says Bush looked so scared to fight, he finally just quit and laid down."

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:02 PM

"War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .


Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)


Richard Nixon looks like a flaming liberal today, compared to a golem like George Bush. Indeed. Where is Richard Nixon now that we finally need him?"

--Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:24 PM

First time I heard Bush referred to as a Golem. Right you are!

d

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 12:02 AM

Amos:

Please strike anyone from a non democratic nation from the list of Kerry supporters, you know like N Vietnam. See here

"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled, or hanged."
President Abraham Lincoln

You know him? The Republican that freed the slaves and people wer trying to oust him from office.

I'll opt for hanging.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:26 AM

OG:

The Union side, of the Civil War, I have always been taught, was the just side, the enlightened side, and the necessary side.

Kerry understood from first-hand experience that the Vietnam War was not just, nor necessary, and certainly not enlightened, and he had the guts to stand up in the face of mass counter-opinion and say so.

Opt as you will, I don't much care. Your chauvinism and jingoism are not entertaining, and (in my own opinion) unhealthy. You can take the actions of a decent human being and slander them and falsify them until the day looks like night.   Good for you, and may you have the joy of it, somewhere.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:39 AM

Amos:

Which person do you claim I am slandering?

If you mean Lincoln, I am honoring him. His quotation should be taken to heart today. People are claiming it is patriotic to undermine the military in a time of war. I say they are saboteurs and should be hanged like Ol' Abe said.

He was on the just side and freed the slaves.

Most amazingly he was a Republican.

If you say I am slandering Kerry, I am only saying he is an arrogant asshole.

Maybe you should come over to the just side.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:39 AM

Amos,

When you do not seem to be able to realize is, that to people who have opinions that are not the same as yours, you are equally guilty of what you accuse OG of. It is a pity that you are so absolutely sure of your opinion that you are incapable of realizing that others may not agree with you and still be well-meaning, thoughtful individuals.



"You can take the actions of a decent human being and slander them and falsify them until the day looks like night. "

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:55 AM

Al Gore describes the problem well in this speech.

"It appears to be an important element in Bush's ideology to never admit a mistake or even a doubt. It also has become common for Bush to rely on special interests for information about the policies important to them and he trusts what they tell him over any contrary view that emerges from public debate. He has, in effect, outsourced the truth. Most disturbing of all, his contempt for the rule of reason and his early successes in persuading the nation that his ideologically based views accurately described the world have tempted him to the hubristic and genuinely dangerous illusion that reality is itself a commodity that can be created with clever public relations and propaganda skills, and where specific controversies are concerned, simply purchased as a turnkey operation from the industries most affected.

George Orwell said, "The point is that we are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield." "

OG, BB -- John Kerry is not arrogant, or at least he is a lot less arrogant than our half-mad Resident. As for being an asshole, you are simply incorrect in your opinion. He is more of a gentleman, and a LOT more of a scholar, and a more experienced diplomat and a more skilled manager than W has ever dreamed of being. He's simply a better human being.

If you weren't completely locked in to the past and its serious errors, you could see it a lot more clearly. The merits on present time comparison of the two men and what they stand for are overwhelmingly in Kerry's favor.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:01 AM

Amos,

You are willing to accept Gore defining Bush as the definition of truth, but not Bush defining Kerry? It seems to me that you are showing an obvious bias. You make statements based on one-sided, partisan statements, and expect those who disagree with them to accept what you say as the Amos-given WORD. You do make valid comments, sometimes: BUT your use of obviously biased sources makes your general conclusion at least suspect, if not worthless.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:13 AM

I am biased, no question. I am not open minded and even handed about George Bush. You want to know why?

Because he has lied to me, lied to my representatives, mismanaged my nation, ruined our reputation abroad and wasted our treasure domestically. He has unleashed the forces of war unnecessarily and cost American lives and the slaughter of innocents in a wildly mis-estimated effort to act powerful. He has spilled innocent blood when he did not have to do so. He has consistently misrepresented the truth, and in the current campaign he has again and again misrepresented the efforts of others and the views of others, distorting them to serve his own interests by twisting their words. He has worsened my nation's economy and in every way displayed favoritism, arrogance, blatant and intentional illiteracy and ineptitude, a refusal to communicate openly, and an unrelenting willingness to suborn his office to the benefit of business associates.

Given this and his other offences, I am not even-minded about him. I have seen the deaths, and heard the testimony, and I don't think there is much room for appeal or redemption in this case.

Bummer.

The man is a danger to the nation. He should go home as quickly as possible before he kills again.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:31 AM

Amos,

"Because he has lied to me, lied to my representatives, mismanaged my nation, ruined our reputation abroad and wasted our treasure domestically. He has unleashed the forces of war unnecessarily and cost American lives and the slaughter of innocents in a wildly mis-estimated effort to act powerful. He has spilled innocent blood when he did not have to do so. He has consistently misrepresented the truth, and in the current campaign he has again and again misrepresented the efforts of others and the views of others, distorting them to serve his own interests by twisting their words. "



This is your opinion- given that, you are certainly entitled to your vote against him. But there are people out here who will say the same thing, with as much conviction and depth of feeling, about Clinton.



You are not entitled to make personnal attacks on those who hold other opinions. You can, and SHOULD, attack the facts presented when you feel them to be false: But to attack the person because they disagree with you makes you a worse type of person than you claim Bush is.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:37 AM

I attack lies, and I tend to be hard on liars. I have been on both sides of that street. You are backing a slimeball. That's your choice. I think less of you for exercising poor judgment in human affairs. That's mine. I do not attack you because you disagree with me, for goodness' sake!! That would really be dull. I just think you're making a sad mistake, and don't mind saying so.

The list of charges in my diatribe, above, which you so kindly excerpted, is not just my opinion, but an abstraction based on facts. We've been over this over nad over and over. The man is a liar, Brucie. You are back a forked-tongue liar who drove us into a lethal war we did not need, under false data. He's not a genuine guy, sorry.   

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:49 AM

Amos,

Bruce, not Brucie...

I read the British Report. I looked at the ongoing violations of UN resolutions by Iraq. I looked at the available information, and I have read the Russian warnings. IMO, in the post 9/11 situation, the Bush administration would have been negligent to NOT demand that the UN act, and when effective action was not forthcoming, take action on it's own. I do NOT say that the conduct of the was has been perfect- No was ever is. Do I wish that Saddam had complied, in November of 2001? YES- But he chose not to. I consider that the lives lost by the mistakes made are far fewer than the lives that would have been lost if the threat had been as it looked to be, and nothing effective was done. Should we have listened to the French, who were major violators of the UN sanctions with Iraq, or other nations that had a vested interest in seeing harm come to the US/ I do not think so.

I think that a reasonable person could see the need to eliminate Iraq as a potential source of WMD to terrorists. You seem to see something else. If I am wrong, thousands die- If you are wrong, millions. I pray to God that if your viewpoint prevails, you are willing to take the same blame for those millions that you place upon Bush for his thousands.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:03 AM

If I was right, Bruce, and the leader of the nation acted reasonably, no-one would have died, aside from those who fell to Saddam's continued aggressions against his own people. I am glad those lives were saved, sure, but they were saved in the most wasteful possible way.

The leader of the nation was unqualified. And he intended to target Saddam Hussein from the first days he was in office, long before 9-11.


I don't see the logic in that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:09 AM

Amos,

You continue to make statements of YOUR opinion, and then act as if they are fact. When you do not see logic in a set of things that YOU have created, for whatever reason, perhaps it is because the person MAKING the statements is not logical...

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:21 AM

I created Bush's poor qualifications? I suppose I did, but that's a metaphysic I would have not thought you capable of articulating so neatly!! Congratulations! I should stop contributing my energy to his being the conundrum that he is.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:02 PM

To Amos:

Amos in the morning Amos in the evening Amos at suppertime.
Be my little Amos And fight me all the time.


Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:24 PM

OG:

I am not fighting you.

I am fighting that insufferable asshole you are promoting. For one reason, really, only: he is damaging the nation and undermining the fiber of its pride and morale.

That's what I see. Call it opinion, call it viewpoint, call it intelligent extrapolation from data. It doesn't go away.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:58 PM

Viewpoints from hither and yon:

charles from shelbyville tn says "BUSH, IT THINK ITS TIME 4 U 2 LEAVE U HAVE BEEN PUTTING OUR TROOPS MORE IN DANGER I ALSO DONT THINK U SHOULD KEEP RAISING OUR TAXES ALSO WE NEED A LEADER 4 A PRESIDENT AND THAT WOULD BE PRESIDENT KERRY U R SO WORRIED ABOUT WATCHING IRAC THAT U NEED 2 PROTECT THE U.S THE LAST THING 2 SAY IS GOOOOOOOO KERRY U GOT MY VOTE" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:51pm PDT)


Robert Brennan from Long Island NY says "Free America from King George! Elect Kerry!The Emperor Has no cloths! Bush Lies, America Dies! Stop the Bush Dynasty before it's too late. Remember Bush was never elected in the first place, dont let him steal this election from the people again." (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:50pm PDT)


diana from maryland says "Thanks for nothing!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:48pm PDT)


priscilla from miami says "bush sucks and i'd vote for any one other than him. he one his first election only because he cheated;he put road blocks oin societies that where mostly middle and low class so that they wouldn't be able to vote on election day." (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:47pm PDT)


Steve from New Zealand says "If Bush is re-elected the World is in big trouble. The man is a facist with no respect for human life at home or abroad." (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:44pm PDT)


Charlie from Dallas says "Because your a liar and a crook, and seeing you sit in that class room while america was under a terroist attack on 9/11 and sing 'old macdonald' was the scariest god damn thing ive ever seen. GEORGE BUSH MUST BE STOPPED." (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:44pm PDT)


Military Mother from USA says ""How do you think it feels for a grieving mother to hear Charles Duelfer, the top CIA weapons inspector for Iraq, state last week that Iraq destroyed its weapons of mass destruction years ago and had no ability to produce more, under sanctions? How do you think it feels to hear White House officials now admit that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11? I want to know: did Michael die for a lie?" asked Lila Lipscomb, the military mother from Flint, Michigan, who is featured in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" reading from the last letter her son, Michael, sent home from Iraq before he died." (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:43pm PDT)



Henry from Canada says "A president is not a cowboy" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:39pm PDT)


Mari Lippi from Michigan says "GW was not ready to lead this country the first time he was given this job by the Supreme Court and is not ready to lead it now. He's lost track of the economy, our respect in the world, and if he can't protect the citizens of this country against the flu, how can he protect us against a terrorist attack? Homeland Security does not even check the cargo in the largest port in the world in L.A. for W.M.D. Instead he rushes to the Middle East chasing a fairy tale of W.M.D. when they could be sitting in our backyard. I'm more afraid of GW in office than not. We're not protected in this country, our borders are open to anyone who can sneak in. GW will run and hide as he did on 9/11. John Kerry will stand up and fight like a man and protect this country with intelligence and strength. GW will only face what he is comfortable with, just as his campaign functions. No one is allowed into his protected world unless they are a registered Republican, what a coward!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:38pm PDT)


Mardi from Germany says "See ya Later, Bush, because a demagogue, liar and warmonger like you is simply unacceptable for our world!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:36pm PDT)


nanna from ca,san jose says "you've put so much people in jeopardy!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:35pm PDT)


Robert Hanshew from Las vegas says "the only thing that can save the world from president bush is for him to see welcome to washington, dc in his rear view mirror." (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:34pm PDT)

Tim from East Hartford, Ct says "I would vote for Bush, if I could invest in the National Debt. Go to http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/ and see how rich he can make you." (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:31pm PDT)

Mos from California says "A lot of damage under your belt, King George. About time you got ousted hard, and let us get on with genuine principles instead of your brand of righteous fanaticism!" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:29pm PDT)


Ken Nicholson, LTC USArmy (Ret) from Virginia says "Bush just gave $10 Billion to Big Tobacco! On Friday Bush signed a bill that provides a $10 Billion handout to tobacco farmers, using our tax money to prop up the most destructive,harmful, odious business in this country. I give the government a third of my income so that they can do that? This is as outrageous as causing 1200 young soldiers to die in Iraq because Saddam Hussein once threatened Bush's father. Bush could send his twins to serve in the Army over there and then he'd finally understand just what the cost of his war is to the thousands of families that have been devastated by his impulsive behavior - but we will never see that - it will always be other people's children, spouses and parents who will be sent - what does he care? He didn't go to war himself when so many were dying in Vietnam - Daddy pulled strings to get him out of it. This jerk wasn't even elected by most voters. Hopefully the vote this time will be so overwhelming that even the Bush cronies controlling the elections in Florida won't be able to thwart the will of the American voters like they did so unabashedly last time." (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:28pm PDT)


richard falco from new york says "so long bush.you homo" (Sat, Oct 23rd, 12:27pm PDT)

http://laterbush.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 04:24 PM

Amos:

This might sound flippant but I am fighting that insufferable asshole you are promoting.

Remeber I was the first to say Kerry is an arrogant asshole and someone pretending to be related to me started a counter thread later.

May the best asshole win.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 07:17 PM

Seems to me, OG, that you are oblivious to the harm this man is doing.

But, as you say, may the best asshole win. *bg**

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular Views of the Bush Administration
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 07:44 PM

From a dear friend:

---

GUESTWORDS: By E.L. Doctorow

    The Unfeeling President

    September 9, 2004 - Easthampton Star

    I fault this president for not knowing what death is. He does not
suffer the death of our 21-year-olds who
    wanted to be what they could be. On the eve of D-Day in 1944 General
Eisenhower prayed to God for the lives
    of the young soldiers he knew were going to die. He knew what death
was. Even in a justifiable war, a war not
    of choice but of necessity, a war of survival, the cost was almost
more than Eisenhower could bear.

    But this president does not know what death is. He hasn't the mind
for it. You see him joking with the press,
    peering under the table for the weapons of mass destruction he can't
seem to find, you see him at rallies
    strutting up to the stage in shirt sleeves to the roar of the
carefully screened crowd, smiling and waving,
    triumphal, a he-man.

    He does not mourn. He doesn't understand why he should mourn. He is
satisfied during the course of a speech
    written for him to look solemn for a moment and speak of the brave
young Americans who made the ultimate
    sacrifice for their country.

    But you study him, you look into his eyes and know he dissembles an
emotion which he does not feel in the
    depths of his being because he has no capacity for it. He does not
feel a personal responsibility for the 1,000
    dead young men and women who wanted to be what they could be.

    They come to his desk not as youngsters with mothers and fathers or
wives and children who will suffer to
    the end of their days a terribly torn fabric of familial
relationships and the inconsolable remembrance of
    aborted life . . . they come to his desk as a political liability,
which is why the press is not permitted to
    photograph the arrival of their coffins from Iraq.

    How then can he mourn? To mourn is to express regret and he regrets
nothing. He does not regret that his
    reason for going to war was, as he knew, unsubstantiated by the
facts. He does not regret that his bungled
    plan for the war's aftermath has made of his mission-accomplished a
disaster. He does not regret that,
    rather than controlling terrorism, his war in Iraq has licensed it.
So he never mourns for the dead and crippled
    youngsters who have fought this war of his choice.

    He wanted to go to war and he did. He had not the mind to perceive
the costs of war, or to listen to those who
    knew those costs. He did not understand that you do not go to war
when it is one of the options but when it is
    the only option; you go not because you want to but because you have
to.

    Yet this president knew it would be difficult for Americans not to
cheer the overthrow of a foreign dictator.
    He knew that much. This president and his supporters would seem to
have a mind for only one thing -- to take
    power, to remain in power, and to use that power for the sake of
themselves and their friends.

    A war will do that as well as anything. You become a wartime leader.
The country gets behind you. Dissent
    becomes inappropriate. And so he does not drop to his knees, he is
not contrite, he does not sit in the church
    with the grieving parents and wives and children. He is the
president who does not feel. He does not feel for
    the families of the dead, he does not feel for the 35 million of us
who live in poverty, he does not feel for the
    40 percent who cannot afford health insurance, he does not feel for
the miners whose lungs are turning black
    or for the working people he has deprived of the chance to work
overtime at time-and-a-half to pay their bills
    - it is amazing for how many people in this country this president
does not feel.

    But he will dissemble feeling. He will say in all sincerity he is
relieving the wealthiest 1 percent of the
    population of their tax burden for the sake of the rest of us, and
that he is polluting the air we breathe for
    the sake of our economy, and that he is decreasing the quality of
air in coal mines to save the coal miners'
    jobs, and that he is depriving workers of their time-and-a-half
benefits for overtime because this is actually a
    way to honor them by raising them into the professional class.

    And this litany of lies he will versify with reverences for God and
the flag and democracy, when just what he
    and his party are doing to our democracy is choking the life out of
it.

    But there is one more terribly sad thing about all of this. I
remember the millions of people here and around
    the world who marched against the war. It was extraordinary, that
spontaneous aroused oversoul of alarm and
    protest that transcended national borders. Why did it happen? After
all, this was not the only war anyone had
    ever seen coming. There are little wars all over he world most of
the time.

    But the cry of protest was the appalled understanding of millions of
people that America was ceding its role as
    the last best hope of mankind. It was their perception that the
classic archetype of democracy was morphing
    into a rogue nation. The greatest democratic republic in history was
turning its back on the future, using its
    extraordinary power and standing not to advance the ideal of a
concordance of civilizations but to endorse the
    kind of tribal combat that originated with the Neanderthals, a
people, now extinct, who could imagine ensuring
    their survival by no other means than pre-emptive war.

    The president we get is the country we get. With each president the
nation is conformed spiritually. He is the
    artificer of our malleable national soul. He proposes not only the
laws but the kinds of lawlessness that govern
    our lives and invoke our responses. The people he appoints are cast
in his image. The trouble they get into and
    get us into, is his characteristic trouble.

    Finally, the media amplify his character into our moral weather
report. He becomes the face of our sky, the
    conditions that prevail. How can we sustain ourselves as the United
States of America given the stupid and
    ineffective warmaking, the constitutionally insensitive lawgiving,
and the monarchal economics of this
    president? He cannot mourn but is a figure of such moral vacancy as
to make us mourn for ourselves.

---

Sums it up beautifully.

A