BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater

Subject: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 09:30 AM

Here is a quick introduction of Blackwater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqM4tKPDlR8

I have seen a long documentary on Blackwater on Comcast cable.

Deploying these troops with the authority to kill on sight within the USA is disturbing. THey got these guys into NEw Orleans when they could not get drinking water in.

Posse Comitas is moot.

Ceasar has brought troops into Rome.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 09:54 AM

"They got these guys into New Orleans when they could not get drinking water in."

... and you wonder why the rest of the world worries about the USA...

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 02:49 PM

THere is a new book out on the subject and the author --Jeremy Scahill--- was a 1 hour interviewee on Fresh Air (NPR) today---frightening. They feel they are above the law and are now in the midst of some huge lawsuits that, so far, has been going against them.   They are being represented by some of the highest paid legal guns around---Ken Starr and the original main attorney is now GWB's WHite House Counsel.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:04 PM

The National Geographic channel is doing a show on them now.
Of course they are portrayed as heros.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:08 PM

They are above the law. They are not subject to military law. They have no accountability for their actions.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:24 PM

There an excerpt from the book HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:25 PM

...and why would a young man enlist when he can work for Blackwater?

This will be the end of the military as we now know it. There is no accountability to taxpayers since they are a private company. There are no laws or conventions that apply to them. This is, as the video says, another huge step toward privitization.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:34 PM

Blackwater USA is a very patriotic militia...if you have enough money.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 07:59 PM

CBC 'dispatches' did a story on Blackwater recruiting all over the world
(its much cheaper) such as in Fiji they only pay a fraction of what theyd have to pay a Briton or American.
however the Fijians who served complained they didnt get paid anywhere near as promised (and were told to complain to the Head office in ENgland). Although a number of Fijians have been killed in Iraq no familys in Fiji have received any death compensation (I believe $100,00 ) Blackwater argued that all those who died switched to another security company thereby voiding the contract- they just bring the body back home to the family.

one Fijian who was on the list to go to Afghanistan, told the cbc reporter he was going to get paid in UK pounds, 60 a month 'is that good? he asked the reporter..

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 11:34 AM

please delete this thread

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 01:32 PM

Donuel - Why do you want this thread deleted?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 01:36 PM

And if they run out of something to do, they can just start a war someplace. Shoot an ayatolla in Iran or something.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 02:19 PM

I have been starting too durn many threads of late.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 07:45 AM

"Although a number of Fijians have been killed in Iraq no familys in Fiji have received any death compensation (I believe $100,00 ) Blackwater argued that all those who died switched to another security company thereby voiding the contract- they just bring the body back home to the family."

          That's a good way to keep labor costs down. Just run two sets of payroll records, and when somebody gets knocked-off, tell the family they were working for the other company.

          It's almost as effective as naturalizing a bunch of illegal aliens.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 03:04 AM

Interesting that Blackwater was started by a conservative Christian. Obviously 'Thou shalt not kill.' wasn't in his Bible.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 05:07 AM

And some cynical bastards detect the faint smell of hyprocracy...

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: 3refs
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 08:38 AM

No whining!
No snivelling!
No constitutional rights demands!
No workplace safety rules!
No refusal of orders!

NO PROBLEMS!

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 09:40 AM

Privatising the army is a good first step. Now how about we outsource the Executive branch of the government. I'm pretty sure that some Malaysian kid could do the job a lot cheaper--and certainly no worse.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 10:26 AM

And he could hire illegal aliens for cabinet members. That way the government could get them for rock bottom prices, they wouldn't have to pay payroll taxes on them, and it they didn't do exactly what the Malaysian kid told them to do, he could threaten them with deportation.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,Coyote Breath (upon the 'green')
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 04:19 PM

Why did they choose the name "Blackwater" isn't that another name for malaria, "blackwater fever"? What I understood was the ultra conservative Xtian (it works for Xmas, don't it?) is still running the show.

If we had enough money could we hire them to throw Bush and company out?

Just a thought.

CB

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 05:01 PM

"And he could hire illegal aliens for cabinet members."

Area 51, Roswell, it's already happened. -:)

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 09:10 PM

Well, Like Donuel, I hardly have time to get sucked into another thread but...

Okay, first of all, when we look at US loses, add another 400 deaths and couple thousand injured when throwing in the "privatized" component of the Iraq War...

Problem with fightin' wars with the "Blackwaters" of the corporate world is:

1. They aren't sufficiently equipped...

2. They don't know jack about ineternational law...

3. and when one of their employees is injured there is absolutelt no protection that theat person will get the treatment afforded a ***real*** combat vet...

Yeah, privatization is not only costly to the tax payer and redundant but a bad trick paid to anyone hurt in ***playin' war*** in a ***real war***....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 02:44 AM

The 'private army' (as distinct from an army of privates!) was supposed to have been 'created' because it was allegedly cheaper than the real army. But that claim has been proved to be a lie (ok the grunts get paid less, but the taxpayer pays more per grunt, so somebody is profiteering!) so perhaps the real reason is far more sinister.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 02:47 AM

Also there are the spoils to consider.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 02:52 AM

Hey I think I found the loophole - thanks to Azizi in another thread...



Article I, Section 8, of the Constitution outlines the powers of Congress:

...

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;


~~~~~~



"grant letters of marque" - isn't that effectively what Blackwater has?


:-)

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 11:56 AM

"'And he could hire illegal aliens for cabinet members.'"

"Area 51, Roswell, it's already happened. -:)"



       What planet did Alberto Gonzales come from?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:14 PM

These people are basically security guards with a delusion of grandeur. They are not an army, shadow or otherwise. Employing them as bodyguards, for which I assume they are trained, frees up soldiers to do what soldiers do...and soldiers are not trained as bodyguards.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:55 PM

I was thinking the same thing, Art. Security guards is one of the fastest growing occupations in North America and its only a hop, skip and a jump to becoming a member of a private militia.

Why don't they just train inmates and send them over to fight? Actually, as I recall, during the VietNam war, many young men were given the choice between jail time and enlisting. Why not make enlisting part of the conditions of parole? It would save money on housing prisoners, too.

Oops, sorry I mentioned it, thats probably next.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:58 PM

That and degrees in Homeland Security.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 02:49 PM

Whether they call them security guards or what, they get paid many times what an American soldier could hope to make, and they seem to have all the modern weaponry that any up to date army has.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: 3refs
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:29 AM

"These people are basically security guards with a delusion of grandeur".
Properly designated as the 1st Special Service Force, the Devil's Brigade was a joint World War II American-Canadian commando unit trained at Fort Harrison near Helena, Montana in the United States. Many modern American and Canadian Special Forces units trace their heritage to this unit.

What you get at Blackwater today, are former members of these units. As for their training, I would suggest that with many of the "security guards" being former Green Berets, Rangers, Navy Seals, they've had the best training money can buy.

We just called them mercenaries in the past!

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 01:13 PM

Before that they were just called 'guns for hire'.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:13 PM

"Have gun, will travel".

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: 3refs
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:50 PM

That was Paladin. He was a West Point grad. And look at his chosen profession after the Civil War!

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: number 6
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:02 PM

Was he a West Point grad? ... I never knew that .... it wasn't on his business card.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:26 PM

From the same folks that gave us the minings of the harbors in Nicaragua. Mercenaries is what they're still called. They network & recruit within the ex special forces. They take these wacko's like my brother who couldn't find work in the public sector as a small arms & an underwater demolition's expert (ex-seal). We'll give you a career is what they promise. They train these guys for jobs that they can't use once they're out so where else do they go where they can make good money. We outsource them of course. Criminal, if you ask me & I don't care if you didn't ask.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 04:32 PM

It's kinda hard to apply for jobs in civilian life after that kind of training.

"And what are your skills, sir?"

"Well, I can field strip and shoot most automatic weapons with an accuracy of over 98%. I am able to use Semtex, dynamite, C4, and I'm able to kill silently and effectively with a maximum of haste."

"Oh. I'm afraid we have nothing open at this time, but I understand that there will be openings in the Sudan, if you don't mind working for mass murderers. Please call back during the next oil slump and I'm sure we'll be able to find a position for you."

"Thank you. I will do that."

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:44 PM

"Would you like fries with that?"

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: heric
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:47 PM

Some law firms might like that if he went back to school.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:58 PM

Go back to school, he's 57, hasn't held a steady job in decades & his relationships fair far worst. He wasn't a waste before hand but he been one ever since he came back, not that he really ever did fully come back.
So much for follow up, weither it be as a mercenaries or a soldier.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: heric
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:05 AM

I'm sorry about that, Mr. Finn. So many people have paid and continue pay a very real price.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:27 AM

I know. The shame is that we've been down the same road before & still haven't learned anything. It would be easier if the tragedies provided a lesson that would avoid repeating future tragedies, that's where the bitterness & anger occur.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:39 AM

Barry, my remarks were not meant to be flippant (in case they seemed that way to you). Many of the Commando fellows from WWII came back and much the same faced them.

I think most people will never realize the re-conditioning that needs to happen to produce a top-notch special forces troop. Then bringing him back from very dangerous, high-stress operations and expecting he will just slide back into a civilian life he never really had to begin with is unrealistic. Wartime takes one toll. Peacetime takes the other. Pretty soon, a guy ain't got much fuel left.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:07 AM

Hi Peace, I didn't take it as being flip at all, more close to the truth than one would want or care to be.
With my brother he was first a sub mariner & was with all his sub school mates (on the USS Scoripion) he signed on for special forces & was in seal training when the Scoripion went down with all hands, everyone he served with, schooled with & the only friends he had up till then. He told me once that he should be with them & never spoke of the war again. Clearly he was a canidate for follow up care but instead he was sought out for his underwater abilities that he couldn't sell on shore & to the public. I'm leaving this thread in tears thinking about the hman waste war produces.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 03:44 AM

Barry - This sounds exactly like my brother:

"...hasn't held a steady job in decades & his relationships fair far worst. He wasn't a waste before hand but he been one ever since he came back, not that he really ever did fully come back."

He is also 57. Hasn't been able to find too many jobs that require a sharpshooter with depression and a lack of impulse control. Before VietNam he was a sweet, shy, eighteen year old who was a sensitive brother and son. The Marines changed that in a hurry!

Its tragic because it effects the whole family. My mother is 83 and she's still dealing with him. He thinks he is taking care of her but we know that she is keeping him off the streets and out of jail. We are powerless to do anything but cope with a sad situation.

Blackwater is even worse. They take no responsibility for their employees and if the families attempt to find out how and why their loved ones were killed, they point to the U.S. and say they are only a part of the allied command. No accountability what-so-ever!

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 10:21 AM

So if Wal-Mart decides to invade Denmark, they could just hire Blackwater and invade. They've got the bucks, and Blackwater is for sale to the highest bidder. So who's to stop them?

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:29 PM

Well, this is how you completely evade the normal responsibility of a government to be accountable for what the military does at home or abroad. You just hire it out to private contractors and use mercenaries. It's unofficial and it's mostly unnoticed, except by the people it directly affects. Boy, how the Iraqis must hate these guys by now...and by extension, how they must hate the USA by now.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: 3refs
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 02:08 PM

I guess I could look it up, but I think it was Wellington who found it particularly abhorrent that Colonialists would stoop so low as to have snipers with their Kentucky Long Rifles hide in trees and pick off English Officers. War is no longer fought with honour, although there are honourable service men and women. I'd just as soon have that looney tune we trained to kill 132 different ways hang around and do the dirty things that have to be done. As opposed to the kid who was just looking for a college education.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 09:49 PM

"I'd just as soon have that looney tune we trained to kill 132 different ways hang around and do the dirty things that have to be done."

          There are those who would argue that the only reason "the dirty things have to be done" is because we want to rip-off somebody eles's resources and exploit them for our own pruposes.

          However, Wellington and Washington were both military commanders representing governments. Now we have corporations like Haliburton(sp?), who just moved its headquarters out of the US, hiring Blackwater to conduct military operations for its own purposes. In the case of Iraq and Hurricane Katrina, these forces are being used to generate profit for their employer(s) at the expense of the American taxpayer.
          And the American taxpayer has to wait four years in order to get rid of the buffoon who hired them in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: The US shadow ARMY Blackwater
From: Peace
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 10:02 PM

Only another year and a half. But that will still leave Halliburton and other corporate powers that are stronger economically than many countries in the world. Economic strength means they can hire people to get their work done for 'em. The Neocons are winning, and we still have people who think Neocons are just another fraternal organization. Sometimes the human race is too stupid for its own good.