BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?

Subject: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Mickey191
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 07:20 PM

What do you all think of this scary hypothesis?


About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.  A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves  generous gifts from the public treasury.  From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship." "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years.  During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:                                                                 1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
2. From spiritual faith to great courage;
3. From courage to liberty;                                                                                4. From liberty to abundance;
5. From abundance to complacency;
6. From complacency to apathy;
7. From apathy to dependence;
8. From dependence back into bondage"

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:
Population of counties won by: Gore: 127 million; Bush: 143 million . 
Square miles of land won by: Gore: 580,000; Bush: 2,427,000.
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore: 13.2; Bush: 2.1
States won by: Gore: 19; Bush: 29
(The Last is in dispute)

Professor Olson adds:  "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty million criminal invaders called illegals and they vote, then goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.
_________
(I object to the term criminal invaders)

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: pdq
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 07:36 PM

A few minor corrections:

            There are at least 32 million illegal aliens just from Mexico right now.

            They do vote, Just ask Bob Dornan.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:12 PM

Codwallop.

Every family in this nation, with a small number of exceptions, stems from one or more invaders.

The numerical analysis of Gore's support is bushwah, as far as I can see -- I suspect it is the kind of inductive fabrication that makes up so much of the Internet's emo traffic.

A

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:21 PM

For once, I agree with Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:52 PM

"eno"? Is that something like an emu?

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:55 PM

Sorry -- I wrote "emo", which is teen slang for highly emotional.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:57 PM

Y'all might wanna check what Snopes has to say about it.

Amos says codwallop. I ain't as classy as him. I'd call it bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: heric
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:58 PM

Note to self: Kids don't apply to Hamline University.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: heric
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:00 PM

Oh. Thanks Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:00 PM

From the Snopes article: "4. Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University is not the source of any of the statistics or the text attributed to him. Professor Olson was contacted (by me) via e-mail, and he confirmed that he had no authorship or involvement in this matter. And, as Fayette Citizen editor Dave Hamrick wrote back in January 2001: . . .".

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:01 PM

Hi, Heric. You're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:02 PM

The Ancient Greeks believed that you could discover hard scientific knowledge about the whole universe by just sitting thinking and talking about it, today we call that "mental mass debating", and insist on having some documented 'facts'.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:36 PM

The little litany also seems a bit too contrived for my taste. And from my readings of 18th Century historians (I'm very sorry, but I have to confess that I've read some of them) I doubt that any of them would have expressed something like that in any way like that given.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Mickey191
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:57 PM

Thanks for your input folks. If, in fact, Olson repudiates the part attributed to him, what say you about Tyler's input?

20/20 last evening had a segment on the the movement to foster acceptance of marriage to those couples who have children & eshewed that option. The welfare payment the unmarried Moms receive was the main reason cited for staying single. So part (#7) of Tyler's thesis seems to hold water.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:02 PM

Given that the Bush administration itself is far more criminal in its behaviour than most American voters are, it would be ironical indeed if it was the more law-abiding half of the public who voted them in... ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:08 PM

"The Ancient Greeks believed that you could discover hard scientific knowledge about the whole universe by just sitting thinking and talking about it, today we call that "mental mass debating", and insist on having some documented 'facts'."

Not all ancient Greeks. That was Plato's view. But Aristotle said, "Go look. Then think about it. Then go look again." Sounds kinda like basic scientific method to me. There are those who maintain that the rediscovery of Aristotle's writings and his style of thinking were partially responsible for the Renaissance. They most certainly turned on people such as Galileo.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 10:29 PM

In the first place, "Tyler" was not the 17th century author's name; it was "Tytler" And he never wrote a book called by that title. Go read what Peace (Thanks, Peace!) linked to and you'll get a lot more information.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:31 PM

Kinda makes you wonder how Aristotle got so much natural history so wrong, don't it?

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Mickey191
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 11:50 PM

Ebbie, Can you ever forgive me?

Now--how many mistakes have I made in my Mudcat comeback? I'm sure someone will tell me. Can you show a modicum of civility though?   

Peace, I did send a thank you to you for your correction. I guess I didn't click hard enough on submit.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:54 AM

Given, as I suspected, that the initial declaration and analysis was complete codwallop or bullshit, depending on which paper ya read, the rest of the discussion about inductive versus deductive reasoning, ancient Greeks and scientific method, is kinda moot.

In my experience, the best thinking has been about 50-50 between induction and deduction.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: GUEST,William F. Buckley
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:01 AM

What in the Lord's Hell are you trying to say here? That post of yours Amos is utter jabberwocky.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:03 AM

JABBERWOCKY
Lewis Carroll
(from Through the Looking-Glass and What Alice Found There, 1872)

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:07 AM

Buckley, you are a narrow-minded equine posterior with the sensitivity of a stale madeline.

What I wrote makes perfect sense.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: GUEST,William F. Buckley
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:15 AM

I would like to take you seriously Amos, but to do so would affront your intelligence.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:23 AM

And confess your own lack....

A

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:11 AM

Amos, I'm really enjoying your verbal jabs at William F. Buckley! ;-) However, I must remind you that the word is "codswallop" with an "s" after the "cod" part. Not codwallop. Codswallop. I have gone to some trouble before to educate you on that very point, and I am aggrieved that the lesson did not take hold.

Now go and write "codswallop" on the blackboard 500 times...

As to the orginal posting, it's mostly codswallop, horsefeathers, and absolute twaddle...except for the assertion that democracy is in peril in the western world. That part is quite true, but it is most imperilled by people like Mr Bush and his deluded supporters, not by Mexican immigrants and other poor people.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: skarpi
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:12 AM

bdq ---- these are people not aliens .

unless we all are ..

all the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:17 AM

I didn't hear folks compalining in the 90's when Hispanics were responsible for much of the labor that fueled a roaring economy and governmental surpluses...

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 11:26 AM

Did I ever mention that I was the "beamish boy" with the "vorpal blade"? I had the head mounted and it graces the area over the mantel of the downstairs fireplace.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:36 PM

For a minute there, Rap, I thought you had mounted your own head and I pictured you hanging over the mantel. But it was not to be. sigh

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Bee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:46 PM

"...slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe..."

I fancy being a slithy tove, myself. Gyring and gimbling in the wabe sounds like fun - is it a wet activity, I wonder, rather like body surfing or prancing about in wet hayfields?

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:00 PM

It's a lot like gambolling.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:37 PM

Ebbie, I might be a tad clumsy with my vorpal blade, but I'm not that clumsy. At least not yet, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:11 PM

But you could be the first in your neighborhood to attain that kind of status, Rap. Much better than a photograph.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 07:56 AM

"I didn't hear folks compalining in the 90's when Hispanics were responsible for much of the labor that fueled a roaring economy and governmental surpluses..."

       You weren't listening. They were a drag on the economy then, and they're a drag on the economy now.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:45 AM

I was. They weren't. Besides, many of Hispanic families have been in this country longer than yours or mine.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:49 AM

How would you know?
             Besides, just being here doesn't make them productive.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:12 AM

"They were a drag on the economy then, and they're a drag on the economy now."

Prove it! Not anecdotal nonsense, not IMOs, not tripe. PROVE it with numbers from your government. PROVE it.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:39 AM

"Prove it! Not anecdotal nonsense, not IMOs, not tripe. PROVE it with numbers from your government. PROVE it."

       I wouldn't be able to prove it with numbers from my government.
My government is run by George W. Bush, and he thinks driving the value of American labor into the cellar is a stunning idea.

       I would refer you to the web-site of Diversity Alliance for a Sustainable America. www.diversityalliance.org

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 12:13 AM

"they're a drag on the economy"

Don't they buy their dresses?

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 02:55 PM

Yes. I suppose they do by their own dresses. They contribute to the economy in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 06:09 PM

"Lies, damned lies and statistics" (was that Mark Twain?)

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: How Long Can This Republic Last?
From: pdq
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 06:13 PM

Often credited to Disraeli.