Size of songbook

Subject: Size of songbook
From: MMario
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:14 PM

If you had your druthers; would you prefer to see a songbook at

8.5 x 11 inches (allowing for larger font, better readibility)

or smaller - say 7 x 9.5 inches - which would make it more portable.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:16 PM

W4ell, at the risk of being tendentious, I would say they can be any size you like as long as you don't bring them down the pub for a session.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Dave Earl
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:20 PM

I just got an email from Tom Lewis asking just the same question.

Why are you asking?

Dave

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:20 PM

I am slowly converting mine to 'quite' small, using a program which will print either 2 or 4 pages on a sheet of paper....allows me to refer to it when needed and can tuck it in a small space when traveling.

(nope, greg, you won't see me trying to read out of it while singing at the pub...)

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:34 PM

Since I don't pack my songbooks around to song fests (I commit the songs to memory), I prefer the larger format.

Hardcovers (Lomax's "Folk Songs of North America" or Sandburg's "American Songbag") don't seem to be much of a problem once you've worked the stiffness out of the spine, but "perfect bound" paperbacks (like "Rise Up Sinking" for example) can be a real pain in the ass—neck. Hard to keep them open. They keep wanting to flop shut. Same problem with a lot of guitar manuals, such as the Frederick Noad set. Great technique books and music collections, but you need a sturdy wooden music stand and a nail-gun to keep them open.

Lately Mel-Bay has been putting a lot of their music books out with a spiral binding, or with a plastic comb binding. Good! Very good!

My perfect bound copy of "The Folksinger's Word Book" was such a monster that I eventually removed the pages carefully from the binding, used a three-hole punch on them, and put them into a three-ring binder. That works fine.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Little Robyn
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:37 PM

The songbooks I used to use were small - about A5 size but I can't read the words any more.
So any songs or tunes I need now are coming out of my computer printer on A4 paper and the font is usually size 16!! And the music font is around 19 or 20.
The joys of aging!
Robyn

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: MMario
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:37 PM

Breton cap - yes, I got the same e-mail and it seemed a good question. So I figured before I answered him I'd ask here and get a broader base response for him.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Scoville
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:40 PM

Spiral binding should be required on songbooks and cookbooks--they are useless if they don't lie flat of their own accord.

I find smaller formats less floppy and easier to manage/stow in an instrument case pocket if necessary, but having to make notation smaller can make it harder to read. If it's lyrics only, like the dreaded RUS, that doesn't matter.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 03:46 PM

Cross posted.

Yeah, Bill, I do something similar. Since I'm working on getting the songs I know, and the songs I want to learn, into a three-ring binder, I sometimes take the words to several songs I'm trying to learn (or re-learn), reduce the font size to something like Times New Roman 8 pt (boldface), divide the page into columns, and put several songs on one page. Then I fold the page along the column lines, printing outward, tuck the folded sheet into a shirt pocket, then pull them out and check them whenever I get stuck.

But I do all of this at home, when I'm learning the songs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: wysiwyg
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 04:20 PM

Ours now are always small for the singers, large for the players.

12 pt. type fits on a 5" wide page for linebreaks as they fall in most songs, and single-line spacing is readable for singing from the 5-1/2 x 8-1/2 smaller songbooklet, but more space between lines and larger space for dots is needed for playing from a page IMO.

Smalls are fine saddle-stapled, but for large we use ring binders and would probably move to the plastic, toothy-binder-thingies if I could ever stop inserting more keys, more variations, etc. The larger size allows plenty of punch-space along the margin with either form of binding.

~S~

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 04:37 PM

I use a filofax (remember the '80's?!) and a fairly small font. I'm on the cusp of requiring bi-focal glasses so reading small print is not a problem for me. It also means I can replace pages easily, print out onto ready punched paper and it fits into my bag.

LTS

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Bert
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 04:53 PM

8 1/2 by 11 for me.

Hey Don how many songs have you got in your "the songs I know, and the songs I want to learn" book?   I've got over 400 in mine already and it's nowhere near complete. It would be fun to compare titles.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 06:22 PM

But, as in so many other aspects of life, it's not the size of your songbook, but how you use it.

LTS

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Bert
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:09 PM

Naughty Squeaks!!!

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:13 PM

""perfect bound" paperbacks ... can be a real pain in the ass—neck. Hard to keep them open. They keep wanting to flop shut."

You can force them to stay open, but if you crack the spine in so doing, then pages start to fall out...

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: SouthernCelt
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:35 PM

At my age, I have problems remembering every lyric line from even my most practiced songs. Since I also have poor near vision, I use 8.5 by 11 paper with 14 or 16 point type and put the paper into clear plastic (non-glare) page sleeves with holes for a 3 ring binder. I can move songs around between sleeves to put together prompt books of whatever combination of songs I have any possibility of being able to play. When I have the occasional volunteer performance to do, I can customize a song prompt book in a thin binder just for use that one time. If I were to try to carry every homemade song book that I've put together over the years, I'd need a moving van to transport them.

SC

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:42 PM

I use A5 transparent-pocket folders and print the songs on A5 paper (or rather portrait format on A4 and cut it in half).

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:49 PM

Why Bert... what do you mean?!

The biggest songbook in the world is no good if you can't get it out of your pocket...

LTS

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 08:00 PM

Oh, I was wondering what thread I should post this to: I opened up an old book which has been on my shelves for years and my very first songbook fell out. The pages are from a three ring binder, though quite small, only 3 inches by 4 inches! I had started to copy from my sister, bet's book. My handwriting has never looked as neat since! There are four little songs very neatly written out with chords for baritone uke. I was probably about 10 or 11 at the time and wanted to do everything bet did!

That said, I prefer 8.5 X 11, but can make do with the smaller size.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 08:06 PM

No song books.

If the musicians do not have enough respect for their audience to memorize the pieces - they have no business being in the business.

Audience participation - teach the oral tradition.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Now for collecting - anything is OK - I spent a night (several hours until well after midnight) writing on cheap toilet paper by a kerosen lamp one time...thank heavens for a good mind, because a few weeks later, in a neighboring state the paper went to a totally different use (even gargling with ginger-ale can not induce your date for the night to pucker a kiss - after puking on an automobile tire.)

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 09:46 PM

Those youngsters who still delude themselves their memory is permanently infallible will enjoy their first micro-stroke, I see...

... so all those songs they thought were wonderful and won't commit to physical means will evaporate... with their delusions...

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From:
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:50 PM

Well, I usually use Letter size (8.5x11) for songbooks with either LARGE 18+ pt fonts or 12 pt with staff music OR for just words using 10 or 12 pt fonts, I use 1/2 of the Letter size (8.5x11 cut in half) put into appropriate 3 ring binders.

BTW - Has anyone knowledge of a source of those binders that self-prop up. They have a fold about half way and that slants the book on a table to read. I've seen a handbell choir using such a binder (smallish) but I haven't seen it in the letter size. Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: leeneia
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 10:50 PM

It's not the size of the book, it's the size of the type that matters. But clarity of the type is even more important than size.

When I have a music book that won't stay open, I separate the pages, punch them, and put them in a binder.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From:
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 11:23 PM

For some other discussion here at Mudcat about making Songbooks check out What Do you Want from a Songbook?. Besides the thread, there are links to a number of other threads about the subject

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 12:07 AM

George, Office Max has those, here. They call them "presentation" binders.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From:
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 11:47 AM

Sounds like Staples here in Canada. Will ask.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 11:49 AM

...they are useless if they don't lie flat of their own accord...

Sexist Pig!

Peter

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 01:39 PM

41/4 by 7 -- a quarter page of legal-sized paper -- makes for a nice pocket-sized book, a la "Songs for All Time." I think "The Sweet Songster" is also in this format.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Scoville
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 01:59 PM

I said: ...they are useless if they don't lie flat of their own accord...

Midchuck said: Sexist Pig!

(You know I'm a girl, right?)

Not that I've ever met with any opposition from the men in my life about it, anyway . . .

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 08:17 PM

Just don't make your songbook so thick that you can't see over it!
Colyn.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 08:27 PM

Why couldn't a girl make the same assertion and also be a sexist pig? Just a question of what group it's being made about. I always assumed Mudcat was strictly equal-opportunity.

P.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 09:21 PM

Small book AND large type (14 pt) would be ideal for me. So far I'm sticking with standard 3-ring binder size but I'd like to take it down a lot. Unfortunately when I need the words for reference it's because the song is LONNNNNNG, and doesn't fit on a small page if it's in large enough type for me to read it easily. Memorization is still the best option. I have very little trouble remembering most lyrics though--it's the arrangement notes, and my bandmates are SO picky about when I decide to play a break and so on...I'm kinda notorious for not repeating an arrangement unless they threaten me.

W-O

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 09:50 PM

Sorry about the stroke - but memorizing and re-using the mind (like a muscle i.e. - like a heart valve and exercise with weight loss and heart disease) is one of the MOST proven factors in prevention of DEMENTIA - OldTimer's Disease.

Those snippets from toilet-paper were remembered - and most eventually posted to the DT and I know I can forever, and forever, count on the Mudcat (like the record-lady) to ALWAYS be there.

Folks - SAVE - restore - backup - PRINT - your digital world is just01101000110111 away from oblivion.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

But PLEASE don't perform before a paying public without memorization!!!some folks, give other Folks a bad name.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Anglo
Date: 29 Mar 07 - 11:30 PM

Seems to me most of this discussion has been about notebooks with lyrics. But the original question was asked about publishing a songbook with music as well as words, presumably leadsheets rather than piano accompaniments.

A lot of people seem to go with US page size 11" x 8.5" for this, ring or spiral bound. Most hardbacks seem to be a little smaller. A convenient smaller page size might be 8.5" x 7" (half of the US "legal" size), which would be a convenient size though perhaps a little small to read the music.

But I think the question was asked for a book to read and learn from, rather than a book to take with you to sessions and read from.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 01:29 AM

Can anyone explain to me why it has been acceptable for ions that a
piano player/singer can have sheet music atop their instrument that contains BOTH the music and the lyrics, yet, so many of you here at
Mudcat INSIST that a guitar player/singer cannot have a music stand
with a binder containing lyrics and/or chords to the songs he/she sings for a hundred different reasons.

No, I do not want to go to a show and have someone stand there and
read the lyrics to the song, keeping their eyes to the paper as they play along - lack of eye contact and communication with the audience
would result; however, I have absolutely no problem with someone
using that prop as a point of reference to scan as necessary while
they sing and entertain their audience.

Yes, I earn my living performing, and yes, I often use a songbook.
Mostly I will use them at retirement home shows because it expands my songlist, but I have used them at children's shows, corporate shows, some pubs and even at a festival or two - and I'll tell you what - I have NEVER had a member of an audience come up to me and rebuke me for using a songbook; and, I have NEVER had another musician dress me down for using a songbook.

I just don't get it, this issue seems to crop up again and again and I have to ask the question again - why? Look, it's simple, if you need or want to use a book - use it; if you don't - don't. You are not "better" or "lesser" regardless of your choice. Cheers.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 02:09 AM

Have you considered putting the songbook(s) on CD? Most people have PCs and if they don't use an internet cafe. You could carry a library in your pocket. Hell, with the memory sticks around today, you could carry every song sheet that's ever been written in your shirt pocket. (OK, that's a slight exaggeration, but only slight.)

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 04:14 AM

It's always been a puzzle to me that we find it acceptable that a professional orchestra, professional classical concert singers and I've even seen professional rock singers with a folder on a stand, should be allowed to use music and yet it is unacceptable for folk professionals and folk amateur performers to do the same. I'm not arguing against the practice I'm just puzzled by the double standards that say we have to have a perfect memory and they don't
chris

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 04:37 AM

Please define ' druthers ' it doesn't appear in the Oxford English Dictionary or Rogets Thesaurus.

eric

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 04:50 AM

"Ooooo", she said breathlessly, "You've got a BIG Songbook!"

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Dave Earl
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 09:27 AM

define ' druthers '

Is a contraction of "I would rather" I beieve.

Dave

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 09:50 AM

I'm with Texas Guest and Chris on this. I cannot see why it is unacceptable for performers to use music/songsheets. What particularly gets me is that those who insist you must learn the words are so often dogmatic about it and will even complain about using words at a folk club/singaround when the only "audience" are the other performers.

I do try to learn the words of the songs I sing as I have found that the effort of learning the words helps me to understand the song better and along with learning the words, I am usually working on how to present the song at the same time. But there are songs where I find I blank on certain lines and having the words handy is a great help. I find the same thing with tunes. I seem to go through a stage in learning a tune where I have the tune in my head but my fingers will refuse to behave and playing from the music makes sure I can play the tune through properly.

I recently apologised at a folk club night for using music to play a tune and was told in no uncertain terms I had no need to apologise and it was perfectly OK to use music.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Tootler
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 09:54 AM

I have put the words of the songs I sing on my PDA. That can easily hold large numbers of songs in very compact format :-)

I put my music and songs with music on A5 sheets which I keep in A5 presentation folders.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: leeneia
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 11:18 AM

Many people would rather talk about music - whether

to assert their superiority,
to discuss historical or literary aspects,
to propagandize or
just to chat with someone -

than actually play it.

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Rutger
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 11:20 AM

Some interesting threads-within-threads here.

While I certainly don't have the performance experience that many here have, here is my $0.02---------

Regarding paper/fonts/etc

-I try keep all my songs and arrangement notes electronically, sometimes as scanned .jpegs but usually as MSWord files on my Desktop. I can trf to Pocket PC if needed (don't do much of that).

-I keep the hardcopy of most of these in 3 ring binders on cheap 8.5x11 inch stock. This way it's easy to hit "Print" from my Desktop and use a 3 hole punch - though I am up to several binders now.... I have used mostly 10 Point Arial as a typefont since it is fairly clear and easy to read even in relatively dim light- BUT I am changing to Courier, since most Courier fonts seem to keep guitar chords (line above) and lyrics in the correct places when you change type sizes, if you bold something or if you email it. It's just annoying to have to change those.

Re Performance
-I was taught, and have come to agree, that the song just doesn't SOUND the same if you read it off paper when you sing it. If you must read it, you cannot get as "inside the song" and hence you cannot deliver as good as performance as you are capable of (no matter what your skill level. [Same goes for tunes, I think but I am not primarily a tunes player so I cannot say for certain.] As for glancing at notes, well, I guess if you must, you must. Personally, I will always prefer seeing somebody perform without paper.

-Rutger

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 01:27 PM

I prefer the 8.5" X 11" format, with chords and musical notation, approriate header graphics, and at least reference notes if not discussion of each song. I've suggested the same to Tom Lewis.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 02:29 PM

""But PLEASE don't perform before a paying public without memorization!!!some folks, give other Folks a bad name. ""

Any one who has ever seen me sing (sorry) knows I have ALWAYS used my little song book. But as for actually reading the words, well sometimes I do sometimes I don't, sometimes I shuffle through looking for another song. It's become part of my act.
I usually only sing songs that mean a lot to me and "Know them backwards".
If you are going to sing with words, don't hide a crumpled bit of paper as if you are ashamed of it, hold it up so you can read it clearly ( thank God for Varifocal lenses)
I have to agree of course with Guest Chris above, it seems to be ok for professionals in every other musical field to read words or follow music, but not us poor struggling amateur folkies.

Last word...never seen Les Barker without a book, but then that's songs without a tune perhaps.

Andy

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Little Robyn
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 05:28 PM

I've just had a vision of the future:
Folkie walks on stage, sets up guitar on stand, sets up laptop on a stool in front, locates song on laptop, tunes guitar and starts singing.
Oh, if he's gone electric with his words, he's probably going to plug in his guitar and maybe he even has one of those foot pedal things that gives you special effects - echoes etc.
If I had my druthers, I druther not use any of those.
Don't often use a word book in public (never did) but the Northumbrian pipers use tune books all the time (and I need the ones with big print if I'm to keep up!)
Robyn

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: Ref
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 08:44 PM

Let's distinguish between paid performers and those of us who have day jobs and just like sharing music. I don't want to pay to watch someone read, but it works fine for song circles where people are trying new things. Lighten up. I enjoy this forum, but am regularly reminded of Bill Morrissey's comment about "Folk Nazis, you know, the people who demand only acoustic instruments and want you to take your pay in carrot cake and strangely flavored teas!"

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 08:58 PM

"was taught, and have come to agree, that the song just doesn't SOUND the same if you read it off paper when you sing it. If you must read it, you cannot get as "inside the song" and hence you cannot deliver as good as performance as you are capable of (no matter what your skill level."

Interested to ask whether you had a 'classicial' or 'folk' 'music education
...

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 09:15 PM

"I don't want to pay to watch someone read"

I saw that program where "The Piano Man" of pop music did a concert - he had a heap of books on the top of his piano (and nobody notice whether he was looking at the page or not!) - and when he did his 'Classical Composition" the highly experienced Classical Player who dueted with him, also had music in front of him.

Personally, with the exception of a few classical musicians who spend years 'becoming at one' with a limited repertoire, I have come to wonder whether all this nonsense about 'no real muso reads from sheet music or words sheets' is just 'power mongering bullshit'...

Subject: RE: Size of songbook
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 09:20 PM

I meant to say 'power mongering bullshit' promoted by those 'B-graders' who are scared that they really don't have as much talent as they think they do, and need to play 'power games' to reassure their own fragile egos, and keep 'those upstarts' in their place - in other words - just normal fear...