BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill

Subject: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:37 PM

Please read this and let me know what you think. A shorter version appeared in the LA paper yesterday (Sunday) and it was discussed on "Talk of the Nation" today.

As a library director I can assure you that this is not an overstatement.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:51 PM

I think it's a shame that a modern society call fall apart so badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:58 PM

Heartbreaking stuff. Thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:06 PM

I think it is very well written, and reflects a grim aspect of our worst side, collectively. Not that of the down-beaten and mad and homeless, but of our creation of a society in which the primary approach is to deny these people the standing of even existing, of being acknowledged as they are.

It would cost so little to organize communities of inexpensive effective housing, in which such poeple could come for shelter, basics, learning, reorientation, vitamins, plumbing, warmth, and some decent clothes that is seems almost criminal that no such place exists.

I can only assume that your library, too, has its share of these battered souls. How do you deal with it?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:09 PM

Luckily, the branch library where I hang out is too far from city center for it to get many of the homeless population, but our downtown main library certainly does. I was working at a psych hospital back in the early 80s when the word come out through the psychiatric profession that people who had been in custodial care were to be "mainstreamed", supposedly for their benefit, but really because outpatient care costs less than inpatient. I suppose that it was fine for some, but many went directly from their wards to shelters and living under bridges, and a large proportion of them never seek any outpatient care at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:19 PM

Wesley S said it for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Midchuck
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:33 PM

The "mainstreaming" thing was one of history's great rip-offs. Both of the mentally ill, and of those who have to deal with them without the skills or facilities.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 04:35 PM

I can only assume that your library, too, has its share of these battered souls. How do you deal with it?

We do our best, and as long as they don't cause problems they're permitted to stay. If they do cause problems we do anything from asking them to behave to telling them to leave to calling the cops.

What choice do you have when, for instance, a drunk is laying on the front lawn masturbating? Or is screaming obscenities while the program for two-year-olds is going on?

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:24 PM

Make a portion ofthe library very attractive to them and to anyone else. First and foremost, very nice bathrooms, and maybe give them a bus token or something in exchange for cleaning it and watching it...

Have the most comfortable chairs in the library, with washable covers, Naugahyde or something. Have several subscriptions to newspapers and several magazines, National Geographic, Time, Good Housekeeping etc. Have many free books they can take with them.

Have those wipes like they have in supermarkets for the carts..in fact they should be everywhere.
In the winter make it warmer than any place else. In the summer, cooler.

Have portable CD players (lots of alcohol wipes) and a selection of music to listen to.

Perhaps have healthy snacks, such as apples and granola bars.

Make it so nice they don't want the rest of the library at all.

I hate how dirty some libraries are. I can hardly stand to go in them ..some of them...

Anyway, arrange for visits by public health nurses or social workers etc. to help them out.

Staff with concerned and caring people with an eye towards improving the hygeine, behavior, health and general circumstances etc. of clients...don't have to be professional librarians.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:34 PM

Mg -some lovely ideas there, but unfortunately, all the libraries I worked in didn't have enough money to buy books, let alone supplying clean, hygenic surroundings, nutritious snacks and CD players.

I'm sure the same is applicable up and down the country, and across the ponds.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: autolycus
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 06:30 PM

I don't believe the richest country in the history of the world doesn't have enough money to fund libraries if it WANTED to. i just don't.






       I.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 06:46 PM

The amount of money we can ask for from taxes is capped, part of the Proposition 13 epidemic that swept out of California about 20 years ago. AND the city can only increase the tax levy by 3% annually. So not only are we stuck with how much we can levy for, we are additionally stuck with how much our levy can go up REGARDLESS of how close the cap we are!

E.g., we are at about 80.2% of the allowable levy. Our levy for next year can only increase 3% -- any other money has to come from grants, etc.

Sure, our levy cap can be raised -- with a "yes" vote from 67% of the voters voting in a regular election.

Idaho isn't alone in this. Many states have caps, or have other things in place that stop public libraries from obtaining even enough money to combat inflation.

The money isn't there and I don't see it coming. Wish it would, though....

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: bobad
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 07:11 PM

Cities, municipalities, states etc. should provide day centers for these poor unfortunate rejects of society, places where they can hang out in comfort without the opprobrium of the fortunate.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Janie
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 07:15 PM

This article is an extremely thorough and thoughtful exploration of the many issues surrounding mental health, mental illness, civil rights, poverty, and the lack of public will to come even close to addressing the complex needs of this population. The mentally ill are the most disempowered, the most disenfranchised, and the least appealing, and least advocated for of any of our nation's disenfranchised populations. The needs of any group of people who are poor and disenfranchised are complicated, but none greater than the mentally ill.   

Thanks so much for that link, Rapaire. I will be forwarding it to everyone who works in my clinic, the local Mental Health Authority and a state legislator or two.




Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 08:01 PM

Used books and magazines then and a bottle of windex and some paper towels. You can get used CD players etc. from a Goodwill probably for $2 each. I will personally get some for a library in the U.S. if they need them.

And I haven't read the article but I am familiar with the problem...I am all for pleasant villages or facilities for the (nonviolent) mentally ill and chronically unemployable for various reasons other than violent behavior. And I am for permanent dormitories, barring nicer facilities being available, for the homeless...and some people just should always have been institutionalized..as least restrictively as possible...And shelters that don't boot people out at 7 in the morning...and lots of managed bathrooms, laundromats, and day care facilities for the homeless....hiring the homeless to clean and supervise if capable....mg

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Benjamin
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 08:04 PM

First off, I must say that the main branch of the Seattle Library in Downtown Seattle is something to see.
I am currently living in Tucson and have visited a few local libraries. I stopped going to one in the NE side here in favor of a location near the foothills area of town. The latter does have a nicer enviroment outside, but is also much quieter usually (except for the occasional screaming kid). Inside, the seats in foothills location are no where nearly as badly stained as the NE location, and I've yet to find a person as described in the article Rapaire has provided in that location. In most other locations, it is just as the article suggests it would be. Some people are noisey, others are just sleeping in what was a perfectly good chair. However, there is never a lack of those who are dirty, drunk, and/or just plain crazy.
The saddest part is that I really do believe that the public library has a very important social function. I'm currious if this issue is discouraging others from making use of the library's services, or if this is the result of a general lack of interest from the public.
Rapaire, thanks for the article and stimulating an interesting discussion.

BMW

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 08:04 PM

Sad commentary on the times...

Libraries as adult day care centers for folks with mental problems certainly points out the simple fact that the Great Socoiety is comotose... We collectively used to give a sh*t and put our money where our mouths were...

I guess if there is one positive thing to say it is that Librarians everywhere can point out that that they are filling a dul need and that, if for no reason other than that, they shouldn't have their funds cut, too...

But this is very depressing...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 08:12 PM

here in Oz we closed mental hospitals in the 80's, too. I live in the inner city (almost the CBD) & see a lot of mentally ill/homeless people.

Around 20 years ago the old City of Sydney public library had homeless people coming in for shelter & warmth, but I don't know if it still happens as I no longer have friends working there. On my frequent trips to newer branches of CofS library I don't recall seeing homeless people, but ...

Maybe that's because City of Sydney council does a lot of work with & for homeless people - their website lists services available.

But there are still a lot of people around the streets who need help.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:44 PM

There was an unfortunate one-two punch that landed most of these people on the streets and consequently in the public domain such as libraries. In probably the late 1960s or early 1970s the ACLU sued whoever they needed to sue (and it probably travelled from there to the Supreme Court) and it was no longer possible to institutionalize anyone against their will. This was never an easy thing to solve, but some of those folks simply don't belong on the streets with no help, despite the good intentions of the ACLU. "Be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it." The other part of this problem was Ronald Reagan. He started those "block grants" that removed the incentive to use the mental health dollars for mental health. I don't have chapter and verse for this, I'd have to look it up. My mother was a psychiatric social worker up until about 1987. This was her expressed view of what happened, and I have no reason to contradict her probably accurate reading of the situation.

I read about 1/3 of the article then skimmed the rest. I have seen this, in quantity, here in libraries in Texas. In the public library in Temple I complained one time about a drunk lounged out in an area where no one else could/would go in because of his smell and his snoring. My friend the librarian shushed me like I was the one who was in the wrong. Really strange. But I don't think I was wrong. The trouble is, you can't designate proper library behavior without applying the standard to everyone and then you'll end up with the library police sending a lot of "normal" users out for some reason or other.

There doesn't seem to be an answer, until there is a good and practical answer to dealing with mental health in America.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 11:03 PM

Interesting Article.

I'm convinced that my neighbour (The Wicked Witch of the East!) is a 'mainstreamed Paranoid Schizophrenic'. I had a boss who was one, and that still has serious long term effects. I finally managed to get The City Council to stop sending out 'Nuisance Officers' - their term not mine! :-) after I demanded the name of the malicious person making endless false complaints.

Refused under 'Privacy'!!!

So... pointed out that I wanted to sue this anonymous person under Queensland 'Stalking Laws' - since they were protecting the identity of this person, I had been advised that made them a 'Conspirator' in the Stalking - so would sue the Council for 'Conspiracy to Stalk'.

Problem of endless stream of Council ignorant wankers turning up waving arms and spouting rubbish about stupid things like a single twig about size of little finger lying on ground 'being a place where rats could nest' (while the Council owned and maintained parks also had these twigs lying around!) gone now!!!

I am also the proud possessor of a Council letter complaining about 'piles of newspaper and grass clippings scattered about the yard' - my 'no-dig' garden beds!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 03:07 AM

I forwarded the article to a Librarian friend who worked in a London public library a few years back where they had the same problem.

Must be an epidemic - US, Oz & UK - or would that be a pandemic?

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: bubblyrat
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 04:53 AM

Pandemic if it was a problem throughout the entire world-----which it probably is, to be honest.We have a major problem in England now, since the introduction of something called " Care in the Community " , which was a government euphemism for " We can"t afford, and frankly can"t be bothered, to look after the mentally disturbed, and therefore we will close all the institutions and sheltered facilities, and let them make their own way in the world,as to put them into special care -homes would infringe their human rights " . Since then , quite a few people in the UK have been murdered by maniacs, who are often schizophrenics who have forgotten to self-medicate, and are responding to the voices in their heads that tell them to kill.However, I imagine that the relatives of the dead can draw comfort from the fact that their loved ones died as part of a wonderful new Social Engineering experiment . Maybe when our government has stopped slaughtering people in foreign lands that half of our poorly-educated children can"t even find on a world map, they might have time to review the tragic results of their ludicrously flawed policy regarding the Mentally Impaired , and the catastrophic impact that it has had in the "community ",but somehow I think that they will always be more interested in protecting the " human rights " of disabled, gay, illegal immigrants, than in protecting their own citizens from attacks by lunatics.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:10 AM

"somehow I think that they will always be more interested in protecting the " human rights " of disabled, gay, illegal immigrants, than in protecting their own citizens from attacks by lunatics. "



The quotation marks around human rights: ??????

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:48 AM

I have a friend who commented to me privately

"Nothing new there, or here. There were a number of twitchy tinfoil hat types in the (Brisbane) state library when I was a regular there in late 83 early 84. The trick seems to be to look eccentric not unwashed and security lose you in the press of music students, academics and U3A types.

A friend of mine online 10 years ago was homeless, used a public library during the mornings and evenings for net access and warmth/aircon. Wandered galleries and public buildings during the library's busy after school period, often dozing on benches. His trick, use a significant share of his variously acquired cash to dryclean his suit regularly, and wear the clean suit so as not to look homeless. Change into jeans when not passing as a tired salary man or city drone.
"

The 'New' State Library in Brisbane has wonderful new facilities, and if you did the tricks mentioned, you would get away quite well. Of course my friend was only talking about 'the sane' - who would react to being 'moved on' by trying to not come back - I doubt that any of the genuinely 'disturbed' would be 'disturbed' at all by being asked to move on...

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Janie
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:07 AM

The severe and persistently mentally ill are much more likely to be victims themselves than to harm others. However, when some one with a psychotic disorder does do violence in the course of a psychotic episode, it gets a huge amount of media attention, and gives the general public the false impression that most psychotic people are dangerous to others.

Bubblyrat, the percentage of people who commit murder or serious violence against other people in the 'non psychotic' population is much higher than the percentage of people who commit murder or serious violence who have psychotic disorders. I suggest you be much more fearful of the young, socialized-to-violence, absolutely non-psychotic gang member than you are of the mentally ill living among us.

The rate of suicide and attempted suicide is much higher in the mentally ill population than in the general population. The murder rate is lower. The mentally ill are also at much greater risk of robbery and assault by members of the general population than visa versa. The mentally ill are much more likely to be prey than to be predator.

Violence by a mentally ill person is much more likely to make the front page, giving a false impression of their risk to others.

The failure of deinstitutionalization is primarily one of failure to fund and provide the community services needed to support community living and treatment.

Do the mentally ill sometimes need hospitalized? Yes. Should the mentally ill be warehoused in large numbers in institutions? No.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:16 AM

My friends in the prison they ask unto me,
How good, how good does it feel to be free?
And I answer them most mysteriously,
Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?

Gospel of Bob.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Scoville
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:06 AM

I work for a private library (part of a large university's medical school) and we have the same problem. I don't work in the main building so it's not an issue for me, personally, but I know the administrators have had to balance trying to be humane with keeping the library usable for students and professors. That includes not having bathrooms--which are small, as this is an older building--used as bathing facilities, not having computer workstations tied up by non-students, maintaining a quiet, orderly, environment, not having people panhandling or urinating the shrubs outside, etc. There is a church nearby that runs a soup kitchen, which is great except that it draws even larger numbers of homeless into our facility. My bosses don't like to insist that people leave but we are not a shelter and do not have the facilities to act as one.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:21 AM

I think in our haste not to "discriminate," we've lost track of the fact that people can't live together in society without some very minimal standards of conduct that everyone must obey if they're to be allowed to walk around loose. I don't know what the answer is for those who can't, or won't, obey those minimum standards, but we have to find one, and it has to be better than traditional jails or "insane asylums." Otherwise, the society won't survive.

That being said, I'm looking forward to being labeled a victim of senile depravity rather than a plain old churl and slob. It sounds much more sophisticated, and I can sue for discrimination anyone who complains about my behavior.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:22 AM

Public libraries in my area are closing because of lack of funding. I'll have to admit, when I first heard about it I wondered where all the homeless were going to go. It hadn't occurred to me what a problem they presented to the folks who run the library.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: leeneia
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 10:29 AM

Mentally ill people who wander the world without help have my greatest sympathy.

However, many hoboes are not mentally ill, they are alcoholics and drug addicts. They can be dangerous. We had one in our neighborhood named Steve. Steve was big, angry and powerful and had to be watched. One sad day we learned that Steve had knifed to death in a fight at a "homeless camp."

Our church has a garden that attracts hoboes. We had a group of them last year. They didn't seem obnoxious, so a tacit decision was made to let them stay.

Such a deal! There was shelter in the garden, there was water in the faucet, and the local pizza place gave them free pizza. It was the nearest thing to The Big Rock Candy Mountain that you could hope to find.

Did they live with that? No. They started angry, drunken fights in the wee hours of the night. Finally neighbors called police a number of times, and they moved on.

It's easy to blame society for not dealing with such people in the right way. But it's also very hard to find a right way when dealing with people who just do not make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: GUEST,janie
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 11:14 AM

It is hard, leeneia. There is no question about that.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:14 PM

"I think in our haste not to "discriminate," we've lost track of the fact that people can't live together in society without some very minimal standards of conduct that everyone must obey if they're to be allowed to walk around loose. I don't know what the answer is for those who can't, or won't, obey those minimum standards, but we have to find one, and it has to be better than traditional jails or "insane asylums." "

One point that Society has not really accepted yet.

"Society" lets a person with serious mental problems run around free in the community, and acknowledges that those people do not have sufficient mental capability to accept responsibility for their actions, so cannot be held to account in a court of law for having committed certain acts.

However, if they do damage to someone else, or cause them to incur loss through damaging personal property, the 'victim' of such acts cannot obtain any restitution.

Seems to me, that is "Society" absolves the nutter, then "Society" should indemnify the 'victim' too!

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: frogprince
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 06:58 PM

My wife worked for years in a home for the developmentally disabled. It originated long ago as a "home for the epileptic and feeble minded". Long after the epileptic part was left off, there were many people institutionalized there unnecessarily, including some difficult youths with normal intelligence. Of course when the move toward correcting such abuses took hold, it more than took hold. A substantial share of the residents were severely disabled, totally dependent on full time care; in it's last days the facility was actully quite well staffed with medical professionals and care givers. Now most of the highly dependent former residents have the "right" to lie around in group homes, tended by minimum wage hires at the skill level of burger flippers. A lot of them will probably die sooner than they would have, which I guess is good econmics.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 07:59 PM

I don't see that we have a society. We have a hodgepodge of laws and grants and obstacles by the UCLA. Is that the group I meant???

We need

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:00 PM

Continued

1. Jails or extremely secure facility for the dangerous among us. I am all for surgery to make them gentle if necessary and/or if they want this.
2.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:09 PM

well, something is not working.

Jails
Dormitories for the non-handicapped homeless.
Secure overnight faciliteis for those on probation or released from jail who don't have shelter.
Modest group studio situations, or single room living, for the elderly, modestly handicapped etc.
Better, modest, safe housing for the families, with incentives to move up and out.

More....

We need to go like gangbusters..literally..and take back the violent neighborhoods, drug dens, housing projects that have severe problems..and make every place safe. Then it is not too much of a leap to make it clean and decent.

People receiving the benefits of living in these places, miserable as they might be now, should be involved in patrolling them, fixing them, cleaning them, with or without additional funds ( if they are mentally and physically able).

Security should be way beefed up through video cameras damn near everywhere..put one in my bathroom if you need to...way better lighting...house and neighborhood matrons keeping eyes on things.

One thing someone saidyears ago..mostcrimes are crimes of convenience..make it inconvenient and you will have way fewer crimes.

This will help all people, including the handicapped, who are disproportionally prey to the bad guys and ladies.

Look constantly for low-cost ways to improve things. The day will come when we need all hands on deck against a major war or something, and we as a nation can not afford to be raising people who end up in jail, on drugs, preying on other people. Like I always say, there are many people who need permanent total care. Some people just need a bit of help. There are huge grey areas in there and way lots of people can have better situations than they with what wehave right this minute...not everyone..some. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 08:28 PM

Not being involved in an "urban" library I can only comment on the situation of the one where I am the President of the Board of Trustees.

We have some disabled people (mentally---if that is the term) that come in regularly for programs and also to assist our Children's Librarian in certain tasks.   Others come in for sessions with our facilitator of discussions for people with learning disabilities.

Frankly, the only problem we have ever had was with "alleged" "normal" people using our internet facilities to view pornography. They are expelled and barred from any future use of the computers. Since the computers are in open view I have taken that action a number of times when I was in the vicinity.

Funding is the main problem as it is with most facilities.   We rely on tax dollars and fund-raising. Happily, this is an area where people are very intent on good library service.

As to urban libraries. I can only give anecdotal evidence of my own observations while visiting some and also the reports of several interviewees we had for a Director's position that came from such places.

Personally, I have been in a few NYC libraries and have not found any problems or some of the situations described above.   I should guess that if one or two arose---as they would---the proper authorites are informed to correct the situation.   The interviewees we had (all from New Jersey --it seems) just wanted less headaches but did not find the situations overwhelming---just annoying. One of our Board members who is a Director of a very prestigious library and has worked in NYC for a time pointed out that much depends on the handling of situations by the Director and the policies he or she has set in place



Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 09:54 PM

I really can't call Pocatello, Idaho a major urban library. Yes, it's one of the largest public libraries in Idaho, but then the whole STATE has a population of only about 1.4 million.

I learned the other day (and of COURSE dropped the information on the director of the U. library) that when the probation office deals with a juvenile sex offender who must use a library the person is sent to the University Library "because there would be fewer children there." They are not permitted to go to the public library.

According to the Idaho State Police website for such things there are about 20 convicted sex offenders (of all sorts) living within a few blocks of the public library here. These people are felons who served their time, and yes, some of them do have library cards.

Being a major urban area for Idaho, sitting on a major railroad link, and being at the intersection of two very busy Interstate highways, we can't avoid "transients." As I mentioned earlier, we have procedures to deal with them. And as Director I will see that they are used -- neither the staff nor the public should be hassled, harassed, or forced to deal with "problem patrons."

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 11:15 PM

Some good ideas up there. Also, how much un used space and un used days are in churches? The flip side is, who is going to man these places and where is the money going to come from????

I'd also guess that a lot of the urbanized Western people in society live on the edge of homeless-ness whether we know it or not. Pay check to pay check.

Our daughter would be 'homeless' right now if we didn't live in a place she could 'come home to'. She works full time as a waitress and her pay check is @$80/week, plus tips. Try living on that even with a room mate.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 02:13 PM

Hospitals encounter the same as libraries and are sued for patient dumping when they "discharge" the homeless.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 02:28 PM

Libraries aren't intended to be places where the sick are treated.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Scoville
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 02:44 PM

I don't have an issue with the mentally ill, mentally handicapped, or anyone else using libraries provided they are able to behave somewhat reasonably and are using the library (mostly) for its intended purposes. Our library doesn't oust people who are not causing the problems I listed above. The problems arise when they either get in the way of students and professors or act in a manner that is disruptive.

Apparently, we had one person coming in for awhile that we tolerated until he started muttering about Jews, "ni**ers", and "ragheads" and became confrontational with the reference desk staff (who are black, Latino, and Filipino), and may have made some remarks within earshot of several Muslim [wearing hijabs] medical students. He was neither student, faculty, nor staff, of any of our associated organizations and we finally had to bar him from the premises.

I wholeheartedly agree that better facilities are needed for people like that, but libraries aren't the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 03:24 PM

Wow. My first thought was that according to recent reports mentally ill people are present in overwhelmingly great numbers in America's prisons. Perhaps mentally people on the street have not 'acted out' or have not yet earned the attention of the law.

My second thought was that it is not surprising that mentally ill people don't obey the rules, are incoherent and/or argumentative, do get into fights (although perhaps far more often set upon by 'well' people), are unwashed and unkempt and ragged. Not surprising; they *are* mentally ill.

And then I read mg's suggestions and felt fear. 'Cleansing' seems not too distant a step.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Scoville
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 03:53 PM

Of course it's not surprising, and it's not their fault, either. And you're probably right about the prisons, too. I wasn't complaining and, as much as I hate it when people say "it's not my job" . . . well, our job is to provide a clean, quiet, study-conducive environment to our university's students and faculty. We don't care if somebody wants to come spend the day in our air-conditioning and use our restrooms (although not for bathing. We don't have room for that), but they can't disturb our primary users. That goes for "normal" people, too. We also remove parents with disruptive children, cell-phone addicts, and the sane-but-asinine when necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: GUEST, Eb
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 05:58 PM

Scoville, I wasn't attacking you at all. In fact, I agree with you. In taking care of apartments, at times I have had to roust out people who had taken refuge in the basement. I have always been conflicted about it: On the one hand I want all people to be warm and dry and at peace; on the other hand, tenants have the right to know who is in the building and the right not to be presented with unpredictable situations.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 02:26 PM

The homeless who have taken up residence in my local public library have had a devestating effect on the library. They have taken over the reading room and av room to the point where virtually no one else goes there. It is not that people are not empathetic, it is just that many of the homeless people have few social skills and are often aggressive and crude.
   I now take a bus to a suburban branch, but I miss the local library and wish that someone would take responsibilty for these poor souls who really do need to be taken care of.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Scoville
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:43 PM

Eb, I didn't really think you were, I just thought I should make it clear that we don't actually single out the homeless as "disruptive" based on their homeless/somewhat erratic/comparatively undergroomed status.

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 04:07 PM

The other part of this problem was Ronald Reagan.

Got it in one. If fact, the vast majority of the ills that infest the U.S. today can be traced back to good 'ol Ronnie & his merry men, many of whom are the guiding lights of the CURRENT administration.

"The Great Prestidigitor" - oh, 'scuse me- "Communicator" has a lot to answer for. May he rot in hell.

BNest, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: open mike
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 08:26 PM

UCLA is University of California at Los Angeles
www.ucla.edu/
ACLU is the American Civil Liberties Union
http://www.aclu.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Public libraries and the mentally ill
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 06:00 AM

Unprovoked beatings of homeless rising

[Sorry if this is rather long. Edited to just the highlights]

'Sport' attacks spread to smaller cities
The Associated Press, Updated: 11:28 p.m. CT April 8, 2007

ORLAND, Fla. - It was a balmy night, the sort that brings the homeless out from the shelters, when the police were summoned to America Street. On the driveway of a condo, just a few paces from the gutter, lay a man. A dying man.

He looked to be 50-ish, and a resident of Orlando's streets, judging by the moldy jacket. And he'd been bludgeoned — so badly bludgeoned that he could hardly move.

Before being rushed to the hospital, where he died of his head injuries, the man, August Felix, described his attackers. Young fellows did it, he whispered to the officers who got to him first. Kids.

Within three months, two 16-year-olds and three 15-year-olds had been charged with second-degree homicide in the March 26, 2006, attack. The motive? "I don't think there was a motive," Sgt. Barbara Jones, a police spokeswoman, said, "other than, 'Let's beat someone up."'

That high-schoolers had turned — allegedly on a whim — into executioners brought pause to city officials and advocates for the homeless, not just because the killing was unprovoked, but because it fit into a trend larger than Orlando: a nationwide surge in violence largely by teenagers and young adults against some of America's most vulnerable citizens.

A 2006 report by the National Coalition for the Homeless found 142 attacks last year against homeless people, 20 of which resulted in death — a 65 percent increase from 2005, when 86 were violently assaulted, including 13 homicides.

By comparison, 60 such attacks were reported in 1999, the year the coalition — the only entity to gather such data — began to study the problem.

And these numbers are likely low because they only reflect the most egregious attacks reported in newspapers or by agencies that serve the homeless and some victims themselves, according to Michael Stoops, acting executive director of the Washington-based coalition.
'Newest minority group'

The trend is particularly troubling, he says, because such attacks no longer occur just in major cities on the East and West Coasts, as was the case in the 1980s.

In its most recent study, "Hate, Violence, and Death on Main Street USA," the coalition documented attacks against the destitute in 62 communities last year alone, in 26 states. Since 1999, such violence has occurred in 44 states and Puerto Rico, and in 200 communities nationwide.

An overwhelming majority of the attackers — 88 percent — were 25 or younger; 95 percent were male. No less than 68 percent of those accused and convicted in attacks were between the ages of 13 and 19.
This pattern of violence, in Stoops' view, hasn't gotten the attention it deserves from the public or law enforcement.

"Homeless people are the newest minority group in America that is 'OK' to hate and hurt," he said. "It's as though, somehow, they're viewed as less deserving, less human than the rest of us."

As he puts it, "Our young people get prejudices from their parents in regard to homeless people. They don't identify with the homeless, and they don't seem to see them as important."

A number of local governments have adopted ordinances that restrict where and when the homeless can sleep, stroll, beg, eat, bathe, or do laundry. And this trend may have an unintended effect — reinforcing negative stereotypes of homelessness, which contributes to the violence, some advocates say.

"When cities pass laws that target homeless people, they send a message to their communities that the homeless are not as valuable in the public eye as those with homes," says Tulin Ozdeger, a civil rights attorney at the National Law Center on Homelessness & Poverty.

Of late, there have been signs that lawmakers may be ready to crack down harder on those who assault the homeless without provocation — one being a recent push to categorize such attacks as hate crimes.
Currently, gays, along with racial, ethnic and religious groups, are covered by various hate crime laws around the country; convictions under these statutes usually carry harsher sentences than other types of crime.

Brian Levin, a criminologist and hate crimes expert at Cal State San Bernardino, says attacks on homeless people "fit the category like a glove," and should be punished as severely.

Hate crimes, he says, bear similar hallmarks: stereotyped victims, offenders who act on latent prejudices, offenders who seek thrills or feel superior to their victims, and a mob mentality that sweeps away caution.

"And on all these points," says Levin, "the attacks against the homeless are really indistinguishable from other hate crimes except for one difference — there are a heck of a lot more of them."
Between 1999 and 2005, 82 people were killed in America because of their race, ethnicity, or religious or sexual orientation, according to the FBI, which has been collecting data on hate crimes since 1990.
There were 169 homeless people murdered during that same period, the National Coalition for the Homeless says — a statistic that Levin describes as "astounding." It has caught the attention of some lawmakers.

Twenty-six members of Congress have asked the Government Accountability Office to determine whether attacks on the homeless should be classified as hate crimes under federal law.

In the meantime, homeless hate-crime bills are moving through the legislatures of six states: Maryland, California, Massachusetts, Nevada, Texas and Florida.

© 2007 The Associated Press

[More at the link]

John