 sj |
||
|
||
BS: five Iranians captured by U.S.
|
|
|
Subject: BS: Five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 05 Apr 07 - 01:31 PM This was mentioned on another thread but since this story is buried so deep, I thought I'd give it a thread all its own. As I've said before, there are two sides to every story but so far the media is saying very little. I'd sure like to know more about what this is about. It seems odd that the Iraqi govt. has to petition the U.S. govt. for the release of Iranians when they were meeting with Iraqi officials in Iraqi territory. "Iranian officials have said that the men are diplomats. Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi foreign minister and a Kurd, said in a telephone interview on Tuesday that although the men being held were not officially diplomats, they had nevertheless been acting as liaisons between Iraq and Iran. "It was not a clandestine operation," he said. "They were known by us. They were under surveillance by regional security. They operated with the approval of the regional government and with the knowledge of the Iraqi government. We were in the process of formalizing that liaison office into a consulate. Then they would have diplomatic immunity." http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/05/world/middleeast/05iraq.html |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 05 Apr 07 - 01:39 PM The US is of the opinion that Iran is working with some Shi'ites to destabilize Iraq. Hence the raid. Initially they took six captives but let one go. The five remaining are either innocent, agents or hostages. I can find very little on that story which started a few months back. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Apr 07 - 02:57 PM From the Wall Street Journal: "One benefit of this episode is that it provoked the press to start reporting on the Revolutionary Guards and elite al Quds force. These highly trained and well-financed fighters are the regime's instruments of violence from Lebanon and the Palestinian territories--where they arm Hezbollah and Hamas--to Iraq, where Iranian-supplied weapons are killing American and British soldiers. For that reason, it's important to separate Iran's hostage-taking from the entirely lawful arrest by the U.S. of five Iranians in the northern Iraqi city of Irbil in January. Some hyperbolic British reporting has linked the two, but the Iranians were part of a Revolutionary Guard network that was supplying money and weapons to killers in Iraq. It would be a bad sign, and only encourage more hostage-taking, if the five Iranians were now released quickly in what Iran might claim is a quid pro quo." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:34 PM Interesting that the NY Times and the Wall Street Journal have entirely different perspectives. It doesn't sound as if the Wall Street Journal bothered to ask Iraq about the situation. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:36 PM And the NY Times didn't bother to ask the US... But I thought you wanted to have the viewpoint of BOTH sides? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:07 PM I do want to hear both sides. The article from the NY Times was dated Apr 05. If you bothered to read it, you would see that it did give the U.S. side of the story. Im not sure when the article you quoted from the Wall Street Journal was dated. I couldn't find it when I googled. Maybe you could provide a link. It sounds like the Wall Street Journal has already found the Iranian captives quilty and have ignored the Iraqi government. Something stinks. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:11 PM From the Wall Street Journal: Mahmoud's 'Gift' The right way to exploit any fissures in the Tehran regime. Thursday, April 5, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:16 PM Let's concentrate on getting more information before sniping at one another (ducking for cover) This is an important story that his slipped into deep background. As I recall the Kurds, who are generally pleased with our current support, were dismayed that they were not briefed on this operation in their terriotry before it happened. Charley Noble |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:21 PM http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/25/world/middleeast/25iraq.html?ei=5090&en=d7bbb4578e61b6da&ex=1324702800&partner=rssuserland&emc http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/12/25/iraq/main2295239.shtml http://www.defenselink.mil/news/NewsArticle.aspx?ID=2534 http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/World/20061226/546655.html |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:24 PM The Kurds surrounded the Yanks who either performed the arrest or did the snatch. (Long time since I heard the expression.) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: GUEST,282RA Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:42 PM So let's see if I have this right: The US is convinced that Iran is helping to destabilize Iraq. Now, let's see...did Iran invade Iraq illegally on phony charges? No. Well, I guess we can see now who it was that destabilized Iraq. And how would Iran accomplish that? By arming the Sunni insurgency? No. The Iranians are Shiites and they hate the Sunnis. So they must be arming the Shiites against us. Hmmm, but didn't eh Sunnis hold the power prior to the invasion? Yes, I believe so. And wasn't it Bush who put the Shiites in power after the invasion? Yes...yes, I believe it was. Wasn't that a highly dangerous, stupid thing to do when you have a nation of Shiites next door that we've been arguing with since the days of Carter as well as the fact that Israel's biggest rival is Hezbollah which is also Shiite and highly regarded by Iraqi Shiites?? Why, yes, yes, I would think so, yes. So who is responsible for this unfortunate situation? Once again, I'd have to say George W. Bush. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:48 PM You are talking with yourself, and the scary thing is it's a dialogue. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Apr 07 - 05:26 PM There's nothing scary about that. People do it all the time. It only scares them when they catch someone else doing it. Those who don't do it audibly are still doing it silently inside their heads anyway. "If my thought-dreams could be seen, they're probably put my head in a guillotine." - Bob Dylan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: GUEST,meself Date: 05 Apr 07 - 05:37 PM These things don't HAVE to make sense. Remember, Reagan was secretly selling weapons to those same enemies of the US, the Iranians ... to fund some friends of the US, the contras ... or was it the other way around ... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Apr 07 - 09:29 PM This whole situation might be cleared up if the Kurds would only make way...ah, what's the use of trying to make a point in this madhouse? Charley Noble |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 05 Apr 07 - 09:59 PM BB-- You have performed the improbably feat of slandering the Wall St Journal. I would say it's not libel, since on Mudcat we basically talk. Your latest cut-and-paste, although for some reason you choose not to admit it, is an editorial--and makes no pretense to objectivity ("or scholarship sublime"). And as such, it's only representative of one side of the Journal------the more-Bushite-than-thou side. Perhaps it's the side you identify with. There is another side to the WSJ--the reporting side. Which somehow seems not to your liking--since it seems you never quote it. Perhaps for good reason--since it points out the many flaws in the editorials' logic. The Wall St Journal is the only newspaper I know of--in the world--in which the reporting often directly contradicts the editorials. The editorial says the Revolutionary Guards objective "was clearly to create some negotiating leverage" (in the nuclear controversy) and humiliate Blair. No, in fact it's not clear. There are other possibilities--explored in the reporting. The editorial states the lesson is to "increase diplomatic and sanctions pressure." No, in fact elsewhere in the same issue, the reporting points out the another theory is that there are moderates in Iran whose attempt to approach the Western position was the target of this incident. It is not at all clear that these moderates should not be encouraged. More pressure will undercut them. (And other media theorize that the incident was just an attempt to distract from the disastrous economy--and provide a handy--and well-known-- villain, while attaining the upper hand over that villain). The editorial mentions the "entirely lawful" arrest of the 5 Iranians in Irbil. If it's "entirely lawful", what were the specific charges against these men? Perhaps you can enlighten us. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 05 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM "improbable" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 06 Apr 07 - 07:16 AM Basra Police: EFP bomb killed Britons By KIM GAMEL, Associated Press Writer 22 minutes ago BAGHDAD - The Basra police commander on Friday said the roadside bomb used in an attack that killed four British soldiers had not been used in southern Iraq before, and his description of the deadly weapon indicated it was a feared Iranian-designed explosively formed projectile. Separately, a suicide car bomber hit a police checkpoint Friday in western Ramadi, killing at least 20 people — two of them policemen — and wounding as many as 30, police in the Anbar provincial capital. Police opened fire as the suicide bomber sped toward a checkpoint, three miles west of Ramadi, according to police Col. Tariq al-Dulaimi. Anbar province has been a stronghold of the Sunni insurgency but many tribes in the region recently switched allegiance, with large numbers of military-age men joining the police force and Iraqi army in a bid to expel al-Qaida in Iraq fighters. The U.S. military has claimed Iran is supplying Shiite militia fighters in Iraq with explosively formed projectiles, known as an EFP. They hurl a molten, fist-sized copper slug capable of piercing armored vehicles. The four British soldiers — including two women — were killed Thursday as the American military announced the deaths of eight more U.S. soldiers since Tuesday. The Basra region police commander, Maj. Gen. Mohammed al-Moussawi, said two similar bombs had been discovered Friday morning; one was discovered on the road leading to Basra Palace, the compound that houses a British base and the British and U.S. consulates. A second was uncovered in the western Hayaniyah district where Thursday's attack occurred. The area is known as a stronghold of the Mahdi Army, a militia loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. The reported deaths of the American forces and the bomb attack on the British unit marked the start of the eighth week of the joint U.S.-Iraqi security crackdown in Baghdad and surrounding territory. Also Thursday, the U.S. military confirmed an American helicopter carrying nine people had been downed south of Baghdad and that four were injured. An Iraqi army official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of security concerns, said the helicopter went down after it came under fire from anti-aircraft guns near the Sunni insurgent stronghold of Latifiyah, 20 miles south of Baghdad. The U.S. military did not confirm that account. It was the ninth U.S. helicopter to go down in Iraq this year. The U.S. military has studied new evasive techniques, fearing insurgents have acquired more sophisticated weapons or have figured out how to use their arms in new and effective ways. Prime Minister Tony Blair called the Basra attack an "act of terrorism" and suggested it may have been the work of militiamen linked to Iran. He stopped short of accusing Tehran, however. "Now it is far too early to say that the particular terrorist act that killed our forces was an act committed by terrorists that were backed by any elements of the Iranian regime, so I make no allegation in respect of that particular incident," Blair said. He added, however, "This is maybe the right moment to reflect on our relationship with Iran." One U.S. soldier died and two were wounded in a roadside bombing Thursday in restive Diyala province north of Baghdad, the military said. Four others died Wednesday in two roadside bomb explosions in southern Baghdad and north of the capital, while a fifth was killed by small-arms fire in the eastern part of the city. Two other soldiers were killed by small-arms fire on Tuesday — one in eastern Baghdad and another on foot patrol in the southern outskirts of the capital. The deadly attack against the British patrol in southern Iraq was the greatest loss of life for Britain in more than four months and it cast a shadow over celebrations marking the return of 15 British sailors seized by Iran two weeks ago in disputed waters in the Persian Gulf. "Just as we rejoice at the return of our 15 service personnel so today we are also grieving and mourning for the loss of our soldiers in Basra, who were killed as the result of a terrorist act," Blair said. The British patrol struck a roadside bomb and was hit by small-arms fire early Thursday in the southern city of Basra, British military spokeswoman Capt. Katie Brown said. The explosion created a 9-foot crater in the road. Hours after the attack, a British soldier's helmet was still laying in the street among dozens of spent bullets. The latest casualties raised to 140 the number of British forces to die in Iraq since the March 2003 invasion — 109 in combat. Blair has announced that Britain will withdraw about 1,600 troops from Iraq over the next few months and hopes to make other cuts to its 7,100-strong contingent by late summer. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 06 Apr 07 - 01:36 PM Sorry that this is a duplicate of a posting on another thread. I've had alot of trouble posting today. "Now it is far too early to say that the particular terrorist act that killed our forces was an act committed by terrorists that were backed by any elements of the Iranian regime, so I make no allegation in respect of that particular incident," "Just as we rejoice at the return of our 15 service personnel so today we are also grieving and mourning for the loss of our soldiers in Basra, who were killed as the result of a terrorist act," Blair said. This is the same way that the U.S. led the public to believe that Saddam was responsible for 911! Link Iran to terrorism in Iraq so that you have justification for an invasion of Iran. The five Iranian hostages were not the intended targets. They meant to kidnap men of higher rank but failed because the Kurds tipped them off. Now Iraq wants the Iranian released. How can the U.S. continue to detain these men if the Iraqis think it is wrong? Who has the power? It is my understanding that while it may be true that Iran is supplying Iraqi Shiites with weapons, it is to protect the civilian population from the Sunni insurgency (something the military seems incapable of doing). They are involved in what is considered protection and reprisal killings. They are not targetting the U.S. or Iraqi military. The deaths of U.S. and coalition forces are due to the Sunni insurgency and/or al-Qaeda. Al-Sadr wants the U.S. out because the U.S. is using Iraq as an excuse to start a war with Iran. If the U.S. would leave, the Mahdi militia and the Iraqi army would be able to quell the insurgency and allow the Shiite dominated, Iraqi government to control their own destiny. I may be wrong and if I am, you are free to disagree but it appears that the U.S. has no intention of allowing a Shiite dominated, Iraqi government to succeed and that they are allowing the insurgency to gain momentum to justify their presence in Iraq. The end game is to invade Iran to eliminate Hezbollah and Hamas. All of this so that the U.S./Israel can gain dominance in the Middle East. If its true, the coalition forces are being used as cannon fodder in a war that will destroy more than Iraq and Iran. Please tell me I'm wrong or bring the coalition forces home immediately! For some odd reason, this post is not getting through. I'll hit submit again and hope this isn't a multiple post. What is going on? O.K., I've tried four times. Time to take a break and try later. Maybe I'm being censored. I know, I'll remove the part about the Z*&^%$# conspiracy and see what happens. I do believe I'm being blocked. Hmmm - Still no luck. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 06 Apr 07 - 01:39 PM There seems to be a technical problem. It has been being addressed by people in the Help section (see top right of page just under Go) A glitch - submit posting not working sometim |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 06 Apr 07 - 01:58 PM dianavan, I disagree with your assessment. Reading the articles from when they were captured ( December) there WERE others captured, who were released because THEY had diplomatic credentials. Not because "They meant to kidnap men of higher rank but failed because the Kurds tipped them off. " In addition, you have stated that the Kurds warned the Iranians off. Since the Iranians are accused of providing material to attack the US forces, this means that the Kurds were working against the US forces. Not exactly "It is my understanding that while it may be true that Iran is supplying Iraqi Shiites with weapons, it is to protect the civilian population from the Sunni insurgency (something the military seems incapable of doing). They are involved in what is considered protection and reprisal killings. They are not targetting the U.S. or Iraqi military. " ERP are NOT useful in protecting civilian populations: They ARE useful in attacking hardened vehicles, ( ie, armoured). " may be wrong and if I am, you are free to disagree but it appears that the U.S. has no intention of allowing a Shiite dominated, Iraqi government to succeed and that they are allowing the insurgency to gain momentum to justify their presence in Iraq." You are correct: I would choose to disagree with your analysis. Rather, it appears to me that Iran is acting to incite violence and kill Iraqis and coalition forces for their own internal political gain. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 06 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM Sorry, EFP. "The U.S. military has claimed Iran is supplying Shiite militia fighters in Iraq with explosively formed projectiles, known as an EFP. They hurl a molten, fist-sized copper slug capable of piercing armored vehicles." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 06 Apr 07 - 03:58 PM Have EFP's, supplied by Iran, actually pierced the armour of coalition vehicles? If so, please support this claim. As you know, the U.S. can claim just about anything. I no longer believe the claims and want to see the proof before I support any U.S. military action. Like I said, we've been sucked in before by U.S. "claims". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 06 Apr 07 - 04:00 PM "BAGHDAD - The Basra police commander on Friday said the roadside bomb used in an attack that killed four British soldiers had not been used in southern Iraq before, and his description of the deadly weapon indicated it was a feared Iranian-designed explosively formed projectile. " And it was an Iraqi who said so.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 06 Apr 07 - 04:01 PM We didn't get sucked in. Canada is not in Iraq. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 06 Apr 07 - 10:33 PM BB-- Gee, it must have slipped your mind. I'm sure you didn't intend to not answer the specific question of exactly what the Iranians seized in Irbil (Iraq) have been charged with--especially since it is extremely germane to the topic of the thread. Since you are evidently convinced, like the calm thinkers who write the Wall St Journal editorials, that the seizure was "completely legal", you must have knowledge of the exact charges against the Iranians. Sorry, general speculation on weapons imported into Iraq by Iranians won't cut it. We are talking about these specific individuals and what crime they are alleged to have committed. Since I'm sure you know the answer, would you mind sharing it with us? Otherwise we may be forced to the conclusion that you don't know any more about it than we do---and therefore the assertion that the arrests were "completely legal" has no support. But when has that ever stopped a Bushite from making wild charges? Awaiting your enlightenment. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 06 Apr 07 - 11:14 PM "The U.N. Security Council resolution that officially marked the end of the U.S. occupation and transferred sovereignty to the Iraqi government retains the U.S. military's right to implement "security detentions". However, any such detentions should be subject to Iraqi law, according to Scott Horton, who teaches international law at Columbia University School of Law. "The Iranians who are being held as 'security detainees' are not being charged with anything, and so are being held unlawfully," he told IPS." http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/03/30/192/ A very good article, btw. It describes how the U.S. is undermining relations between Iraq and Iran. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 06 Apr 07 - 11:47 PM "Tehran has said the five were diplomats working in a consulate office in Arbil -- comments that Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari seemed to support in an interview with the New York Times Thursday. He said that the men were operating with the knowledge of the Iraqi government and were not involved in any sort of "clandestine operation." "They were known by us. They were under surveillance by regional security. They operated with the approval of the regional government and with the knowledge of the Iraqi government. "We were in the process of formalizing that liaison office into a consulate. Then they would have diplomatic immunity," he said. http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=170013 Why isn't the media all over this? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:05 AM "Iranian officials have said that the men are diplomats" "the men being held were not officially diplomats" You are all over it Dianavan and doing a splendid job. What do we need the media for? It is OK for the Hezbollah forces from Iran to enter Israel and take soldiers as hostages though. Have they been returned as required by the cease fire deal? Here is a video for Dianavan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Apr 07 - 01:19 PM OK Dickey--since BB is obviously -- fruitlessly--scouring the net for some indication of the exact charges against the Iranians taken in Irbil, perhaps you can tell us the answer. And if you can't, tell us why their seizure is "totally legal". It is after all the subject of the thread--much as you would like to drag the subject elsewhere. Oh, I forgot, it's against your principles to do any research--or anything but bumper-sticker debate. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 07 Apr 07 - 05:27 PM Dickey - We are not talking about Hezbollah. Start another thread. I realize, however, that the effort to justify a war with Iran is not coming from the U.S. alone. It is obviously fueled by Zionist fear as well. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 07 Apr 07 - 05:37 PM Zionists have such an irrational fear of their neighbours. And of the country whose leader said "Israel should be wiped off the map." Those silly people. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 07 Apr 07 - 06:45 PM As you said yourself in a previous thread, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad does not make policy. Besides that, his term ends sometime this year. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:00 PM His term apparently ends in August of this year. He is allowed to run for another term. That why he wanted to show the Iranians that he was a 'generous', 'compassionate' and 'forgiving' man. He's on the campaign trail. Not so different than any other politician. btw - Not only does he not make policy, he is also not in charge of the military. I agree, its very silly to be afraid of Ahmadinejad. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 07 Apr 07 - 11:44 PM Hezbollah is a military force of Iran which invaded another country and kidnapped hostages with armed conflict. Have they lived up to the bargain anout releasing the hostages? Are they following the Geneva conventions that you demand the US must follow? Has the Red Cross or Amnesty International visited them? Do they have lawyers? Have they been charged with anything? You beleive it is hands off for Iranians in Iraq but perfectly alright for them to have an armed invasion into another country and takes hostages. "Whatever success the U.N. Security Council would presume to claim, it cannot be said that Resolution 1701 has effectively addressed the direct cause of the fighting--the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, Ehud Goldwasser, 31, and Eldad Regev, 26, by Hezbollah, and the earlier abduction of Gilad Shalit, 19, by Hamas. Secretary-General Kofi Annan's call for the unconditional release of these soldiers has been ignored. Moreover, in flagrant violation of international humanitarian law, the terrorists have not only seized the soldiers as hostages for political blackmail, they have not allowed the Red Cross to visit them. Their families do not know their physical condition; they have no proof they are even alive." http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008856 This thread is not about Zionists either so why bring them into it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Barry Finn Date: 07 Apr 07 - 11:51 PM The Red Crescent not Cross. Barry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Apr 07 - 12:35 AM "Hezbollah is a military force of Iran..." No they are not. They are a locally-raised independently led militia of Shiites that has come directly from the local Shiite population in Lebanon. They are a Lebanese militia. They receive material and moral support from Iran...naturally! ...and from other Shiites in many places...but they are not a military force of Iran, they are a separate military force all of their own. They are an ally of Iran. Like various similar allies of the USA, such as the Mujahedin who later became the Taliban, for instance, and killed Russians with arms supplied by the USA, or like the Afghani Northern Alliance, they get help from their international friends, whoever those friends are. So what? The Mujahedin were not the army of the USA, neither were the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, and Hezbollah are not the army of Iran. "which invaded another country and kidnapped hostages with armed conflict" Israel and the USA also have invaded other countries (and HOW!) and taken hostages, many of them....your media just doesn't call people hostages when they are taken prisoner by Israel or the USA. Israel has captured and held far more people in its border fighting than Hezbollah has, and those people are also still being held. The Muslims view those people held in Israeli prisons or in American military prisons as hostages too, and they also want them returned. There are thousands of those people, not just a handful of them. You're the one who believes it's "hands off", Dickey...for the USA and Israel. In your moral system they are free to invade whom they please when they please and take hostages when they please, because they can "do no wrong". Why be so surprised that the Muslims in the world don't agree with that point of view? which invaded another country and kidnapped hostages with armed conflict. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Apr 07 - 01:01 AM Disregard the last line. Unintentional paste job while cutting and pasting. Dickey, what you don't get is this: you're living in a country that has the utter gall to pre-emptively invade, overrun and occupy small countries that have not even attacked it!!! That is unlawful aggression. It's totally outrageous. It's beyond toleration. If the USA were not so much more heavily armed than any other country in the world it would be very much in danger of being at war with most of the rest of the world by now...just like Hitler was by 1943. You are living in a nation run by out and out war criminals who are as irresponsible and unlawful as Tojo or Mussolini. The only reason a major war has not broken out yet over this insanity is that the price everyone would pay is simply too great...so the world stands back and holds its nose and makes some disapproving noises, and hopes the USA will cut its losses and go home before something worse happens. You are living in a rogue nation, Dickey, and your own nation has done worse things than Iran. Much worse. Your own nation has already invaded and occupied 2 small countries and tacitly encouraged the invasion of a third (Lebanon), and is now threatening the invasion of a fourth (Iran). It has killed tens or hundreds of thousands of people in the Middle East and ruined the lives of millions. It has tortured and illegally held prisoners. It has betrayed its own Constitution and its own people. Your government leaders are war criminals on a massive scale. If any small country dared to do the insane military aggression your country does, the whole world would declare it an outlaw nation and would band together and crush it by deadly force. I guarantee that. The only thing that's saving you from that is the fact that you're so heavily armed that you can get away with your outlaw behaviour. So far. No one can afford a Third World War. It's just unthinkable. As it is, the world just sits back, as I said, holding its collective nose, and hoping you guys will get such a bloody nose yourselves in your criminal adventures abroad that you'll finally sober up and realize you made a very big mistake. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 08 Apr 07 - 02:51 AM Get this straight, Dickie. Iranians are not Arabs and Hezbollah is not an Iranian military force. Littlehawk - I wonder if Israel can talk some sense into Bush. For the sake of all the people in the Middle East, I hope so. Now that we know Bush is probably arming the Sunni insurgency in Iraq, we can be sure that al Qaeda in Iraq also has his support. What does that tell you? No wonder bin Laden has never been caught! Our only hope is that when Bush leaves office, he will be tried in an international court for crimes against humanity. I hope both he and Cheney will rot in prison. They deserve to be stoned. I think it would do the American public alot of good if they could each throw one stone at the two of them in a pit. I can honestly say that I have never felt that way about another human being but those two should rot in hell. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 08 Apr 07 - 02:59 AM "U.S. detention camps in Iraq currently hold more than 15,000 prisoners, most of whom, like the Iranians, have been held without charge or access to tribunals for months, even years, in some cases, according to a recent New York Times investigative report." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Apr 07 - 11:48 AM Please don't be hard on Dickey--he can't help it if he can't understand anything unless it can be fit on a bumper-sticker---after all, he's just a stalwart Bush voter. Requiring research--or especially thinking--is just not reasonable. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Apr 07 - 11:52 AM However, I'm still patiently waiting for any Bushite to tell us exactly what crime the Iranians taken in Irbil (Iraq) have been charged with--since the Bushites assure us their seizure was "totally legal---and that seizure is after all the subject of the thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Barry Finn Date: 08 Apr 07 - 12:05 PM Ron. they're still not sure yet but they'll come up with something eventually, maybe in a year or two & tailor fit to meets their needs. Barry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Apr 07 - 12:30 PM If I'd been Ahmadinejad, I would have drawn a much closer link between the British sailors and the Iranians taken in Irbil. Then I would have still released the the British sailors, while pointing out the stark contrast between my treatment of the sailors and Bush's treatment of the Iranians in Irbil. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Apr 07 - 12:30 PM too many "the"s |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 08 Apr 07 - 01:44 PM You're right about Ahmadinejad. He should have linked the Irbil Iranians with the British sailors. I wonder why he didn't? The Iranians should have been released by now. I have this awful feeling that they have been lost in a maze of prisons or that they have been so badly tortured that they can't be seen by the public. Nobody sides with the U.S. on this (except maybe BB) and the U.S. hasn't charged them. So where are they and why not release them? Iraqi officials say they were in the country legitimately. Can't the Iraqis demand their release? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 08 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM The establishment of Hezbollah by Iran during the Lebanon War (1982-1986) The first Lebanon War, which began on June 6, 1982, reduced Syria's influence there, destroyed the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure and led to the collapse of the central Lebanese government. The Iranians correctly identified the opportunity presented by the political upheaval and exploited it to transport the Islamic struggle to the Lebanese arena, in the heart of the Arab world , and from there to wage its battle against Israel and the United States without direct involvement .2 The Iranians were active mostly among the Shi'ites, the largest sect in Lebanon, which has traditionally suffered from political, economic and social deprivation. Iran's strategy was compatible with the interests of Syria, which at that time struggled against Israel's presence in Lebanon from a position of military and political weakness. The meeting of Iranian and Syrian interests led to Syria's permitting 2,500 Iranian Revolutionary Guards to enter Lebanon and to set up a stronghold within the Shi'ite population in the Beqa'a Valley. Although the Syrians prevented the Iranian force from participating in the fighting against Israel and large numbers of them returned to Iran, the remaining 1,000-1,500 Iranians entrenched themselves in Baalbek, which was under Syrian military control. They established a military-logistic infrastructure at the Sheikh 'Abdallah camp in Baalbek , which they took over from the Lebanese army, and at the Zabadani camp in Syria , northwest of Damascus. Intelligence and operational Revolutionary Guards elements were later installed in Beirut, Zahle and Mashgharah in the southern Beqa'a Valley. The military infrastructure set up in the summer of 1982 played an important part in establishing Hezbollah and using it to carry out terrorist missions. The Revolutionary Guards' most conspicuous achievement was successfully uniting the various radical Shi'ite groups which objected to the Israeli presence and Western influence in Lebanon. The Revolution Guards established Hezbollah from among those groups and supported them by training their members, transmitting technical know-how, and providing weapons (through Damascus), ideological guidance and extremely generous funding. The key role in establishing Hezbollah in Lebanon and dispatching its members on terrorist missions against Israel and the West was filled by Hujjat al-Islam 'Ali Akbar Mokhtashemipour , who was then the Iranian ambassador to Damascus (and is currently head of the Headquarters for Intifada Support, and important in providing Iranian support for Palestinian terrorism). Guided by the Iranians, during its first years Hezbollah developed two modes of action which became the trademarks of Iranian-directed Shi'ite terrorism : Suicide bombing attacks : suicide bombing attacks in Lebanon were carried out by Shi'ite terrorists sent to sacrifice themselves for the sake of Allah as part of jihad, an important element in Khomeini's ideology (and that of his heirs). 3 The first suicide bombing attacks were directed against Western targets , and later against Israeli targets in Lebanon and Jewish and Israeli targets abroad (Argentina). During the first Lebanon War Hezbollah carried out a series of suicide bombing attacks against American and French targets, killing hundreds. As a result of the attacks, the multinational force was evacuated from Lebanon and the Palestinian terrorist organizations were encouraged to copy the Lebanese model, using the suicide bombing attack as the main weapon in their terrorist campaigns against Israel (in the middle 1990s and during the second intifada). http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/iran_hezbollah_e1b.htm "If I'd been Ahmadinejad" Ron, You would make a very good Ahmadinejad with your bullying skills. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 08 Apr 07 - 07:31 PM Iranians supporting Hezbollah is no different than the U.S. supporting Saddam or the U.S. supporting Arab Sunnis. The difference is Hezbollah is not likely to turn on Iran whereas Saddam did turn on the U.S. So did Bin Laden. So will the Arab Sunnis. It does not mean, however, that Hezbollah is an Iranian army any more than Arab Sunni/ al Qaeda are an American army. What does Hezbollah have to do with the abduction of the five Iranians by the U.S.? Absolutely nothing. As Ron already said, 'I'm still patiently waiting for any Bushite to tell us exactly what crime the Iranians taken in Irbil (Iraq) have been charged with--since the Bushites assure us their seizure was "totally legal"---and that seizure is after all the subject of the thread.' Quit trying to change the subject. Start your own thread instead of trying to hijack this one. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 08 Apr 07 - 07:36 PM "What does Hezbollah have to do with the abduction of the five Iranians by the U.S.?" What do Zionists have to do with this thread? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Apr 07 - 08:17 PM Thanks for the compliment, Dickey. Read any good bumper stickers lately?--since this appears to be the source of your wisdom. Fascinating that neither you nor any other Bushite have managed to locate any actual facts about the crimes the Iranians taken in Irbil are alleged to have committed. Yet supposedly the seizure of the Iranians is "completely legal". So far, your silence on this issue--after all, the subject of the thread--is deafening. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 08 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM Peace - The only thing Zionists might have to do with a possible invasion of Iran is that their fear of Iran adds fuel to the fire. Zionists would like to maintain their military advantage in the Middle East. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:06 AM When Dianavan is unable to answer a question she accuses the questioner of trying to hijack the thread. Ron who couldn't debate his way out of a paper bag has to resort to personal attacks in lieu of any proof of anyting or facts. A schoolyard bully could do better. GO ahead and call me names Ron. That is the limit of your abilities. If you feel in the mood to actually contribute something other than hatred for anybody that disagrees with you, tell me what the soldiers captured by Hezbollah are charged with? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: AWG Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:17 AM This guy is GOOD....Wow!..... Oh, sorry. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:38 AM "In the last three days, word of the new intelligence confirming the terrorist training has made it to the Israeli press after the chief of the Israeli Security Agency, Yuval Diskin, told the parliamentary committee that oversees national security that he estimated hundreds of Hamas terrorists had gone to Iran for extensive training over several months." http://www.nysun.com/article/50544 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:48 AM "An American intelligence official said the new material, which has been authenticated within the intelligence community, confirms "that Iran is working closely with both the Shiite militias and Sunni Jihadist groups." The source was careful to stress that the Iranian plans do not extend to cooperation with Baathist groups fighting the government in Baghdad, and said the documents rather show how the Quds Force the arm of Iran's revolutionary guard that supports Shiite Hezbollah, Sunni Hamas, and Shiite death squads is working with individuals affiliated with Al Qaeda in Iraq and Ansar al-Sunna. Another American official who has seen the summaries of the reporting affiliated with the arrests said it comprised a "smoking gun." "We found plans for attacks, phone numbers affiliated with Sunni bad guys, a lot of things that filled in the blanks on what these guys are up to," the official said. New York Sun: "One of the documents captured in the raids, according to two American officials and one Iraqi official, is an assessment of the Iraq civil war and new strategy from the Quds Force. According to the Iraqi source, that assessment is the equivalent of "Iran's Iraq Study Group," a reference to the bipartisan American commission that released war strategy recommendations after the November 7 elections. The document concludes, according to these sources, that Iraq's Sunni neighbors will step up their efforts to aid insurgent groups and that it is imperative for Iran to redouble efforts to retain influence with them, as well as with Shiite militias. The news that Iran's elite Quds Force would be in contact, and clandestinely cooperating, with Sunni Jihadists who attacked the Golden Mosque in Samarra (one of the holiest shrines in Shiism) on February 22, could shake the alliance Iraq's ruling Shiites have forged in recent years with Tehran. Many Iraq analysts believe the bombing vaulted Iraq into the current stage of its civil war." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 01:15 PM "We found plans for attacks, phone numbers affiliated with Sunni bad guys, a lot of things that filled in the blanks on what these guys are up to," the official said. Why is this a surprise? As far as Iran, "working with individuals affiliated with Al Qaeda in Iraq and Ansar al-Sunna." that is speculation. This article was written in January. There is a big difference between "influence, support and aid." Which do you suppose it might be. It doesn't appear that the "officials" are very certain about this. Don't you think that if there was any foundation for these accusations, we would have heard something more by now? If its true, everyone (except the Baathists) are working together to force the U.S. out. That means that the only people not opposed to the U.S. occupation, are the people that were forced out of power by the U.S. Wrap your head around that! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 10 Apr 07 - 03:18 PM Human rights in Iran Today, the state of human rights in Iran continues to be generally considered a source of significant concern. Despite many efforts by Iranian human right activists, writers, NGOs and international critiques as well as several resolutions by the UN General Assembly and the UN Human Rights Commission, the government of Iran continues to restrict freedom of speech, gender equality and other forms of freedom. Furthermore, the Islamic regime of Iran continues to disregard the The government of Iran has been called by several human rights groups as one of today's leading abusers of human rights, whose leaders repeatedly remove any sort of freedom including even those granted by basic human existence. According to Amnesty International's 2004 report, at least 108 people were executed that year, most of whom had been detained as political prisoners. Amnesty has also described cases in which adolescent children were sentenced to the death penalty. Though illegal, torture is often carried out in Iranian prisons, as in the widely publicised case of photojournalist Zahra Kazemi. Like 74 other countries in the world, Iran carries out capital punishment. As a State party to the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC), Iran has undertaken not to execute anyone for an offence committed when they were under the age of 18, despite continuing to carry out such executions, and is one of only six nations in the world to do so. According to Article 6 of the ICCPR, "sentence of death shall not be imposed for crimes committed by persons below eighteen years of age.". In 2004, Iran ranked second in the world by total number of confirmed executions having carried out 159, coming behind the People's Republic of China, who committed at least 1,770. In 2005, the number dropped to 94 confirmed executions, either by hanging or stoning. Death sentences are always administered for those convicted of murder, rape, and child molestation. Iranian youths Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni on the scaffold. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Iran |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 03:48 PM Yes, we know that. Iran is a theocracy. They have different laws. Laws that I would not like to live under. The United States should be held to a higher standard. So why can't we take a look at the five Iranians that are being held illegally? We have seen no bruises or marks of any kind on the British. Lets hope the Iranian hostages are as lucky. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Apr 07 - 03:52 PM "The United States should be held to a higher standard" So, you think that the Iranians are NOT to be held to the standards you would hold the US? Is it that they are not "civilized" enough, or do they have a special dispensation from God? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 04:06 PM A Theocracy is not the same as a Democracy but we do hold them to the same standards, internationally. We are speaking of a specific incident in this thread. Lets not spread it so thin that we can't cut to the chase. Where are the five Iranians captured illegally by the U.S.? Lets compare their treatment to the treatment of the 15 Brits released by the Iranians. At least let us have a look at them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Apr 07 - 04:21 PM "Where are the five Iranians captured illegally " Different case. The Brits were kidnapped in IRAQI waters, where they were legally. The Iranians DID NOT have the right, under international law, to detain them. The Iranians were captured in IRAQ, during a military operation. The military DOES have the right to detain them while investigating their actions in Iraq. How are they being held "illegally"? Do they claim to have been in Iran at the time they were captured? Are they being investigated for what THEY are accused of doing? Otherwise we may be forced to the conclusion that you don't know any more about it than we do---and therefore the assertion that the arrests were "illegal" has no support. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 05:41 PM Sorry. I used the wrong wording. I should have said, where are the five Iranians being held illegally by the U.S.? Lets compare their treatment to the treatment of the 15 Brits released by the Iranians. At least let us have a look at them. Yes, they are being detained illegally. They have been held for more than two months and have not been charged. I'm surprised they haven't confessed to something by now. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:42 PM "Lets compare their treatment to the treatment of the 15 Brits released by the Iranians." Now that you are into comaparisons, Let's compare the five Iranians to the Israelis kidnapped by an armed force of Iran, Hezbollah, created, trained, financed, armed, equipped, supported and commanded by Iran. "The U.S. military has allowed the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit five Iranian officials who were detained in Iraq nearly three months ago on suspicion of plotting against American and Iraqi forces. A Red Cross delegation that included one Iranian citizen visited the detainees, and a request for a formal consular visit with them is "being assessed at this time" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040402613.html?nav=rss_world Has the same courtesy and respect been shown for The Israelis kidnapped on July 12, 2006? Dianavan wants to give a pass on terrorisim to a theocracy who treats women like dogs. http://www.activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4611 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:46 PM "But Canadians don't have to follow the complex nuclear dispute to be convinced of Iran's bad faith regarding truthfulness; they need only remember the brutal beating death of Canadian-Iranian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi in the summer of 2003. Kazemi, to refresh people's memories, was arrested on June 23 while peacefully taking photographs of a public protest outside a prison near Tehran. Three days later, she was rushed to hospital, in a coma, her skull fractured. She never regained consciousness, dying on July 11. Iranian officials first claimed she had a stroke while being interrogated; they later admitted she died from a brain hemorrhage after a beating in custody. Canadian officials and her immediate family in Montreal were denied an independent autopsy and access to the body. Against the wishes of her son and Canadian diplomats, she was quickly buried in Iran. After a farcical secret trial of low-level officials on charges of "semi-intentional" murder brought an acquittal, Iranian officials suggested she had fallen, striking her head. The matter remains unresolved." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 10 Apr 07 - 10:29 PM Arezu, A young Iranian girl in her early twenties became the latest youth to commit suicide in Iran. last week, She jumped from a bridge in Hafez square in Tehran. Arezu (meaning desire and hope) lost all hopes & find life unbearable in misogynist Iran under the Ayatollahs. Arezu and many more have lost their lives so the greedy EU & the filthy Brits can live better lives by looting Iran. Iran has the highest rate of suicide in the world. http://activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=30585&sid=1bb22875f081120091f8b2f8d7464595 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:22 PM Yes, I know the Iranian govt. has a terrible human rights record. What do you want to do, help the people of Iran like the U.S. helped the Iraqis? I am concerned about the Iranians because they are being held illegally and because they were in Iraq with the permission of the Iraqi government. They have not been charged and yet the rumours are flying. Does the U.S. have more power in Iraq than the Iraqi government? There is no comparison with the Israelis who were captured on the border of Lebanon/Israel by Hezbollah. Hezbollah may be backed by Iran but the U.S. backs alot of questionable characters as well. Using your logic, the U.S. should be held accountable for the actions of bin Laden and Saddam and... Or you could compare the number of Israelis held hostage to the number of men, women and children in Israeli prisons. We've been through this in other threads. Its just a red herring. Now exactly why are the five Iranians being held by the U.S.? btw, Dickey - There was no Iranian citizen with the Red Cross delegation. That was another lie. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:47 PM Dickey-- The question still remains as to exactly what the Iranians taken in Irbil are charged with. And the continuing silence on your part--and all other Bushites-- as to this question is quite telling. And please be so good as to give a specific source. Sorry, the New York Sun does not qualify as an objective source--it's about one cut above the wisdom of Mr Limbaugh--if that. We need something along the lines of the Wall St Journal (reporting, not editorials), or the Economist. Sorry if that's not your normal fare--but if so, you'd be advised to broaden your reading--even though the articles may not always fit on a bumper sticker. Just keep your dictionary handy and you'll be fine. We'll teach you to do research--and I have confidence you'll eventually learn how--though it may take a while. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:48 AM Ron: What are the Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hezbollah charged with? I do not presume to define what a reliable source is for you but evidently you think you have some superior intelligence that makes you the judge of such matters. Every statemnt you make must be supported by personal attacks because they cannot stand on their own. "One of the two committees contained an individual who speaks Farsi and lived in Iran, but he is a British citizen by birth," Who has been allowed to visit the Israelis? Were the 5 Iraninas taken by force in Iran? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:00 AM What Dianavan termed a lie was published by the Washington Post. By Joshua Partlow Washington Post Foreign Service Thursday, April 5, 2007; Page A12 BAGHDAD, April 4 -- The U.S. military has allowed the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit five Iranian officials who were detained in Iraq nearly three months ago on suspicion of plotting against American and Iraqi forces. A Red Cross delegation that included one Iranian citizen visited the detainees. Perhaps Ron should strike that newspaper from his list of qualified sources. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:54 AM BAGHDAD, April 6 (Reuters) - There were no Iranians in an International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) team that visited five detained Iranians held by the U.S. military in Iraq, the military said on Friday. Dickey - You really do need to do a little more reading. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:18 PM So, dianavan will take the word of the military over the Washington Post. I wonder when that will change... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:24 PM "A senior Western official in Baghdad said the raids were conducted after American officials received information that the people detained had been involved in attacks on official security forces in Iraq. "We conduct operations against those who threaten Iraqi and coalition forces," the official said. "This was based on information."" from the NY Times article... See, the official SAID they were involved in attacks- so it MUST be true. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:23 PM Now exactly why are the Israelis being held by Hezbollah in spite of a UN resolution calling for them to be released? Who has has access to them? What are they charged with? Did a US armed force enter Iran and kidnap those 5 Iranians? Did an Iranian armed force enter Iraq waters and capture those 15 British sailors? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:33 PM I'll leave you guys to beat your dead horse all by yourselves. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:48 PM My God, how easily is the word "lie" hurled about when simply initial misinformation was all there ever was. The US army initially gave the information that there was an Iranian among those seeing the prisoners. This information of course was printed in the press as true. The next day, the Pentagon corrected the information and said that there was someone who spoke Farsi and had lived for some time in Iran but was a British citizen was in the delegation. Simple as that. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM Dickey-- Personal attack? Moi? I only give you all the respect you've proven you deserve--every bit of it. Isn't it enough? And I try to gently guide you towards exploring more reliable sources. Nice dodge, by the way. But how about going back to the topic of the thread--exactly what are the crimes the Iranians taken in Irbil have committed? It begins to look likely that neither you nor any other Bushite knows the answer--and therefore the allegation that the arrests were "completely legal" has no basis. Still patiently waiting for your answer on the specific question cited above--despite the fact that thread creep is a long and honored Mudcat tradition, let's try for once to avoid it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:38 PM "American officials received information..." Wow, I''m impressed. Now we know exactly what the crimes were. Or maybe not. Try again. A few more specifics--like an actual charge of a specific crime--would be nice. Otherwise, I'd say the presumption that diplomats are not criminals should play a role here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:48 PM Ron: I can see how upset you get whenever someone dares to disagree with you. Have you tried anger management? Iran Factor US Shows More "Iranian" Weapons Caldwell Reiterates Charges of Meddling by Tehran Posted 9 hr. 20 min. ago BAGHDAD, IRAQ - APRIL 11: Weapons seized in Iraq are shown during a news conference April 11, 2007 in Baghdad, Iraq. The US military on Wednesday reiterated charges that Iran is supplying weaponry and training to the insurgency in Iraq. "We know that (EFPs) are being in fact manufactured and smuggled into this country, and we know that training does go on in Iran for people to learn how to assemble them and how to employ them. We know that training has gone on as recently as this past month from detainees debriefs," U.S. military spokesman Major-General William Caldwell said at a weekly briefing. U.S. Army Maj. Marty Weber from the 79th Ordinance Battalion, holds a 107mm rocket at a news conference, April 11, 2007 in Baghdad, Iraq. Caldwell showed the Baghdad press corps EFPs he said were manufactured in Iran, as well as mortar rounds and rocket-propelled grenades, which he said were found at a house and in a car in Baghdad this week. "We also know that training still is being conducted in Iran for insurgent elements from Iraq. We know that as recent as last week from debriefing personnel," he said. The general would not specify which arm of the Iranian government was doing the training, but referred to the trainers "surrogates" of Iran's intelligence agency. Caldwell also said that two recently arrested insurgents reported having received training in Syria. The AP writes that sources inside a splinter group of the Madi Army reported that "there are as many as 4,000 members of their organization that were trained in Iran and that they have stockpiles of EFPs." http://www.iraqslogger.com/index.php/topic/71 |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:14 PM I'm only calmly asking you for a direct answer. It says worlds about your credibility--unsurprisingly--that you can't seem to find one. It is after all the subject of the thread. Attempted digression is the refuge of the desperate. Would that be you? Just asking. It'll be interesting to see if you see this as an attack also. Just how sensitive are you? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:10 PM Mr. irritated, desparate Ron: What are the charges against the Israelis? If Iran's Hezbollah feels no charges are necessary, why are charges necessary to hold the Iranians? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:28 PM "Commanders of a splinter group inside the Shiite Mahdi Army militia have told The Associated Press that there are as many as 4,000 members of their organization that were trained in Iran and that they have stockpiles of EFPs, a weapon that causes great uneasiness among U.S. forces here because they penetrate heavily armored vehicles... "The Mahdi Army commanders who spoke to the AP did so on condition of anonymity because their organization is viewed as illegal by the American military and giving their names would likely lead to their arrest and imprisonment. They said Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards was running the training operation in Iran. Gen. Ramazan Sharif, spokesman of the Revolutionary Guards, denied ties with the Mahdi Army in Iraq...." http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=VASTR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:12 AM So Dickey compares the U.S. to Hezbollah as a way of avoiding your question, Ron. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:50 AM "Otherwise, I'd say the presumption that diplomats are not criminals should play a role here. " Straw man, unless you still have problems reading (I can give your comments the respect they seserve, as well) The DIPLOMATS were released, as the article states. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 13 Apr 07 - 01:39 AM The answer is there are no charges. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 14 Apr 07 - 12:40 AM |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 14 Apr 07 - 12:45 AM Dickey-- Thanks so much for your direct answer. And it only took 84 postings to squeeze it out. And you are correct. There are no charges. So why, pray tell, is the arrest of the Iranians "totally legal"? Or is it just that in the "war on terror" legality is just what Bush says it is? That sounds amazingly like a dictatorship. I don't think Americans will really like that idea. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:10 AM Who says there have to be charges? The Iranians you are trying to protect don't see the need for charges. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:18 AM Counter-Terrorism Policy in 1990s - Rendition and Disruption - PDD-39 in June 1995 Rendition - arrest or seizure of foreign national and extradition to US or to other country Rendition to 3rd Country - US law bars rendering anyone if torture would occur, but… - By-passed by obtaining undisclosed "assurances" - Maher Arar case (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/) - Tenet said 70 renditions occurred prior to 9/11 o Unclear where all were rendered to "Intelligence" Sharing - Foreign agencies provide information to US and US to foreign agencies - Used in immigration hearings - How accurate is the information? Disruption - legal methods to interfere with suspected operations - "investigate, detain or otherwise harass" Disruption by Covert Action - action abroad "where it is intended that the role of the United States Government will not be apparent or acknowledged publicly," preferably never. - Usually illegal action: e.g., assassination (non-political), arms supplies - Congressional leaders should be notified, but sometimes after-the-fact... http://www.public.iastate.edu/~pol_s.358/counter.pdf |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:43 AM "Vice President Dick Cheney's foreign policy advisers won an internal administration tussle over what to do with the men, U.S. officials confirmed on condition of anonymity. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had argued for a quicker release but was overruled, partly out of concern not to make the release appear part of a deal involving the British, the sources said." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070413.wusiran0413/BNStory/International/home In other news, I heard it was the State Dept. that sent Condi with the message to release them. It was Cheney who blocked her. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 14 Apr 07 - 04:47 AM In other words, no one knows what's going on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 14 Apr 07 - 10:48 AM "Iranian officials have said that the men are diplomats. Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi foreign minister and a Kurd, said in a telephone interview on Tuesday that although the men being held were not officially diplomats," In other words, no one knows what's going on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 14 Apr 07 - 02:13 PM In other words, no one knows what's going on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:32 AM Was Tehran Behind an Iraq Raid? Thursday, Apr. 26, 2007 By MARK KUKIS/BAGHDAD When unknown gunmen abducted and killed five American soldiers from a joint U.S.-Iraqi base in Karbala in January, suspicion immediately fell on an elite Iranian paramilitary outfit called the Quds Force. The attack certainly bore signs of elaborate planning and professional execution: Nine to twelve fighters wearing U.S.-style military uniforms slipped onto the base driving sport utility vehicles, apparently duping guards at the gate. Once inside, the gunmen opened fire and threw grenades, killing one American soldier before seizing four others and speeding away. The entire operation was completed in roughly 20 minutes. On March 22, the U.S. military announced the arrest of Qais Khazali and his brother Laith, saying the two were apprehended in Basra and Hillah after coming under suspicion of involvement in the Karbala incident. Other arrests of the so-called Khazali network followed. Qais Khazali had been a protégé of Muqtada al Sadr in 2004 and 2005, but his relationship to Sadr and the cleric's Mahdi Army militia these days is unclear. Investigators who've been questioning Qais Khazali since his arrest say he has been working closely with the Quds Force in recent times, however, leading a group of Iraqi Shi'ite militants who've trained in Iran. Speaking to reporters on a visit to Washington, this week, Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, said Khazali's network was definitely behind the Karbala attack. "This is the head of the secret cell network," Petraeus said. "They were provided substantial funding, training on Iranian soil, advanced explosive munitions and technologies as well as run-of-the-mill arms and ammunition, in some cases advice, and in some cases even a degree of direction." Petraeus said Khazali's cell members kept detailed records of the Karbala attack and other operations, presumably to show Quds Force financiers and trainers. "There are numerous documents which detailed a number of different attacks on coalition forces, and our sense is that these records were kept so that they could be handed in to whoever it is that is financing them," Petraeus said. "And there's no question, again, that Iranian financing is taking place through the Quds Force of the Iranian Republican Guards Corps." Military officials in Baghdad following the ongoing investigation say Khazali himself had traveled frequently to Iran before his arrest. Investigators are still questioning Khazali about any involvement he may have personally had in the Karbala attack, and his possible ties currently to Sadr. The meaning of the evidence uncovered thus far in the Karbala investigation remains unclear. Connecting the dots one way creates a picture of an elite cell of Iraqi militants working closely with Iranian intelligence and potentially the Mahdi Army, tapping into a guerilla network of operatives and training camps stretching, in theory, from Baghdad to Tehran. Arrange the evidence another way, and Khazali looks like a rogue militant leader whose ties to the Quds Force or the Mahdi Army could be simply transactional business dealings. Petraeus, at least, seems inclined to believe the former. "This is speculation, but I think it is fairly logical speculation," Petraeus said. "We think that records are kept so that the individuals that carry out these attacks can demonstrate what they're doing to those who are providing the resources to them, providing the additional funding, training, arms, ammunition, advanced technologies and so forth." But he acknowledges that evidence directly linking the Quds Force to the Karbala attack is so far inconclusive. "We just can't confirm it. I can't say it wasn't there either. But we did not find, if you will, a direct fingerprint to it." Either way the biggest question of the Karbala attack is still unanswered: Who were the killers? The last sign of the gunmen was on a road leading away from the site of the attack toward Hillah, where they abandoned their five SUVs, shed their disguises and ditched their weapons, which turned out to be mockups of American guns. Local police say the engines were running when they came upon the vehicles and the four victims abducted by the attackers. The taillights of all the vehicles were broken, local police say, in an apparent attempt by the gunmen to make trailing them more difficult. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:32 PM "But he acknowledges that evidence directly linking the Quds Force to the Karbala attack is so far inconclusive." In other words, no one knows what's going on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:57 PM So they'll put the suspects on trial or release them if there isn't the evidence to do that? Pull the other one. That's not the New American Way, is it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:15 PM Jus' like Guantanamo. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 28 Apr 07 - 03:58 AM "An intel official recently assigned to Baghdad told me he too thought the Administration's claims are ridiculous. Iraq is too chaotic and the insurgency too fragmented — both the Sunni and Shi'a — to determine the origin of arms. The Iranians certainly are arming Shi'a militias, but what happens to the arms once they get to Iraq are anyone's guess. Among other things, Sunni insurgent groups regularly raid Shi'a caches." http://jcgi.pathfinder.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1615582,00.html |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 07 - 12:30 PM BB-- Please be so good as to always give your sources--including author (if known)-- and publication--so we can judge objectivity or lack of same. Sometimes you do, sometimes not. Thanks so much. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: 282RA Date: 29 Apr 07 - 09:51 AM I just found this article that pretty much lays out my view that Iran is not arming the insurgency except indirectly and has less control over Iraq's future than the United States. As for Iran sending delegates and aggents there to monitor the situation, well, for Christ's sake, they have every right to do so! This war is on their doorstep, they can't remain neutral even if they wanted to, they must not let this war rage into their borders which it could easily do, they cannot trust the United States who has been threatening them with war, and they're supposed to sit there and keep out of it and express no interest or it automatically means they are deeply involved in it and essentially control the situation. I mean, come on. Arresting Iranians within Iraq's borders is basically pointless. It will neither prove nor accomplish a thing. Iran has no reason to enmesh itself very deeply in this war but it has to closely watch the situation to keep it from spilling over their borders. They may be backing a horse or two there but so what? That's what you do in international politics, you back your horse. It's what the U.S. should have done instead of invading unilaterally. It would have been a chance for the U.S. and Iran to talk. If both wanted Saddam gone, let's arm and train some Shia militias we both trust, bring in foreign fighters we both trust, establish supply and communication lines, let's bring him down and then let's talk about what we want to see in Saddam's place (although it is still unexplained as to why the U.S. ever wanted to bring Saddam down when he was the perfect counterbalance to an emerging Iran and vice-versa). That way, Iran is happy, the U.S. is happy, everybody's happy. Demonizing every little thing about Iran is bullshit and totally unproductive. It is chasing a shadow while ignoring the true enemy who cares little about Iran right now. Thinking that attacking or subduing Iran is going halt the insurgency in Iraq would be catastrophic beyond all belief. It would merely be throwing water on a grease fire. The United States needs to admit that it is the sole cause of the situation there--not Iran--and act accordingly to change that situation. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1615582,00.html |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 29 Apr 07 - 10:12 AM Childish Bet In American Circles to Win Over Syria and Iran Raghida Dergham Al-Hayat - 29/04/07/ American intellectual and academic institutions are mistaken if they allow their rage against US President George W. Bush's war on Iraq to make them disregard the necessary roles they have to assume in formulating a correct, reformative and intelligent US policy toward the Middle East. Some of them promote 'winning over' as a recipe for the US forces' withdrawal from Iraq, criticizing the US President for his refusal to engage in charming Syria and Iran, in particular. Others totally overlook the requirements of establishing a partnership with the government and popular moderation ranks to form the most important sequence of defeating the extremist forces and terrorism in Iraq, as well as in the Arab and Islamic World....." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: 282RA Date: 29 Apr 07 - 10:25 AM The article below is disturbing because Petraeus talks of the Iranian connection with the same dead certainty that Colin Powell did to the U.N. ("We know that Iran is arming the insuregency because blahblahblah and we have learned of a vast network of shadowy operatives, ammo caches and safehouses essentially stretching from Baghdad to Tehran and financed by blahblahblah. British intelligence has revealed a previously unknown network of blahblahblah operating west, north, east, and south of Baghdad and all points in between there and here.") And, like Powell's speech, you know it's bullshit. He doesn't have enough data to make the assumptions that he is. He's trying to build a case for the U.S. to attack Iran and we've been through this once already, thank you. What has happened to us? Do we no longer have anybody left in the upper echelons of the brass who can do no better to assess a situation but to jump to the same wild conclusions of the Bush administration? Do any of them understand why we gather data? Why we analyze it? Why we draw conclusions based on that data? What a strategy is? Do they understand that people with extensive experience in various areas and spheres have to see that data and give input on it and that it must then be painstakingly correlated? That its conclusions must be responsible? Who is telling Petraeus that Iran has this huge, elaborate terrorist network pulling the strings behind Iran? John McCain is doing the same thing with that goddamn idiotic "Bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran" thing he pulled last week or so. Then he tells everybody, "Hey, it was just a joke! Lighten up alright?" Ohhhh, a joke!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Boy that was funny Senator McCain. I though because you said it deliberately in a speech in front of a crowd that desperately wants to do the very thing you joked about in the retarded belief that it will change the situation in Iraq that you might have been pandering to them and only pretending it was a joke. Sort of like a lawyer who introduces evidence illegally to the jury who is then told to disregard it. A kind of, "Whoops! Did I say that? Tee-hee! Silly me. I'm such a joker!" For a minute there, senator, I got the impression that you intend to carry this administration's policy to the next level should you get into office and that next step would be to "Bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran!" http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1615020,00.html |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:02 PM 282RA - Yes, if Petraeus can only speculate, he should keep his mouth shut. Most professionals do not 'guess' at what the truth may be and then act accordingly. Inconclusive evidence is no evidence at all. The only reason he's shooting off his mouth is to implicate Iran. The trouble is, he doesn't know who his enemy is so he's trying to create one. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 29 Apr 07 - 08:16 PM Dianavan-- Petraeus, as a sensible person, does not want a 2-front war. Trust me on this. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:35 AM Ron - If Petraeus is so sensible, why is he forming conclusions on speculation? Nobody wants a two front war. The point is, Iran has more business being in Iraq than the U.S. That means the U.S. should stop making Iran the enemy and start enlisting their support which they should have done in the first place. Iran would have gladly joined the effort to oust Saddam and since Iraq is Shia dominated, it only makes sense. Now the U.S. has to watch Iran and Syria and Turkey while being bombed by Iraqis. What are their chances? Slim to nothing. This is not a war that the U.S. can win. The only thing they have accomplished is more hatred for the U.S. Yankee go home. |
