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BS: five Iranians captured by U.S.
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:35 AM Ron - If Petraeus is so sensible, why is he forming conclusions on speculation? Nobody wants a two front war. The point is, Iran has more business being in Iraq than the U.S. That means the U.S. should stop making Iran the enemy and start enlisting their support which they should have done in the first place. Iran would have gladly joined the effort to oust Saddam and since Iraq is Shia dominated, it only makes sense. Now the U.S. has to watch Iran and Syria and Turkey while being bombed by Iraqis. What are their chances? Slim to nothing. This is not a war that the U.S. can win. The only thing they have accomplished is more hatred for the U.S. Yankee go home. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 29 Apr 07 - 08:16 PM Dianavan-- Petraeus, as a sensible person, does not want a 2-front war. Trust me on this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:02 PM 282RA - Yes, if Petraeus can only speculate, he should keep his mouth shut. Most professionals do not 'guess' at what the truth may be and then act accordingly. Inconclusive evidence is no evidence at all. The only reason he's shooting off his mouth is to implicate Iran. The trouble is, he doesn't know who his enemy is so he's trying to create one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: 282RA Date: 29 Apr 07 - 10:25 AM The article below is disturbing because Petraeus talks of the Iranian connection with the same dead certainty that Colin Powell did to the U.N. ("We know that Iran is arming the insuregency because blahblahblah and we have learned of a vast network of shadowy operatives, ammo caches and safehouses essentially stretching from Baghdad to Tehran and financed by blahblahblah. British intelligence has revealed a previously unknown network of blahblahblah operating west, north, east, and south of Baghdad and all points in between there and here.") And, like Powell's speech, you know it's bullshit. He doesn't have enough data to make the assumptions that he is. He's trying to build a case for the U.S. to attack Iran and we've been through this once already, thank you. What has happened to us? Do we no longer have anybody left in the upper echelons of the brass who can do no better to assess a situation but to jump to the same wild conclusions of the Bush administration? Do any of them understand why we gather data? Why we analyze it? Why we draw conclusions based on that data? What a strategy is? Do they understand that people with extensive experience in various areas and spheres have to see that data and give input on it and that it must then be painstakingly correlated? That its conclusions must be responsible? Who is telling Petraeus that Iran has this huge, elaborate terrorist network pulling the strings behind Iran? John McCain is doing the same thing with that goddamn idiotic "Bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran" thing he pulled last week or so. Then he tells everybody, "Hey, it was just a joke! Lighten up alright?" Ohhhh, a joke!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Boy that was funny Senator McCain. I though because you said it deliberately in a speech in front of a crowd that desperately wants to do the very thing you joked about in the retarded belief that it will change the situation in Iraq that you might have been pandering to them and only pretending it was a joke. Sort of like a lawyer who introduces evidence illegally to the jury who is then told to disregard it. A kind of, "Whoops! Did I say that? Tee-hee! Silly me. I'm such a joker!" For a minute there, senator, I got the impression that you intend to carry this administration's policy to the next level should you get into office and that next step would be to "Bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran!" http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1615020,00.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 29 Apr 07 - 10:12 AM Childish Bet In American Circles to Win Over Syria and Iran Raghida Dergham Al-Hayat - 29/04/07/ American intellectual and academic institutions are mistaken if they allow their rage against US President George W. Bush's war on Iraq to make them disregard the necessary roles they have to assume in formulating a correct, reformative and intelligent US policy toward the Middle East. Some of them promote 'winning over' as a recipe for the US forces' withdrawal from Iraq, criticizing the US President for his refusal to engage in charming Syria and Iran, in particular. Others totally overlook the requirements of establishing a partnership with the government and popular moderation ranks to form the most important sequence of defeating the extremist forces and terrorism in Iraq, as well as in the Arab and Islamic World....." |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: 282RA Date: 29 Apr 07 - 09:51 AM I just found this article that pretty much lays out my view that Iran is not arming the insurgency except indirectly and has less control over Iraq's future than the United States. As for Iran sending delegates and aggents there to monitor the situation, well, for Christ's sake, they have every right to do so! This war is on their doorstep, they can't remain neutral even if they wanted to, they must not let this war rage into their borders which it could easily do, they cannot trust the United States who has been threatening them with war, and they're supposed to sit there and keep out of it and express no interest or it automatically means they are deeply involved in it and essentially control the situation. I mean, come on. Arresting Iranians within Iraq's borders is basically pointless. It will neither prove nor accomplish a thing. Iran has no reason to enmesh itself very deeply in this war but it has to closely watch the situation to keep it from spilling over their borders. They may be backing a horse or two there but so what? That's what you do in international politics, you back your horse. It's what the U.S. should have done instead of invading unilaterally. It would have been a chance for the U.S. and Iran to talk. If both wanted Saddam gone, let's arm and train some Shia militias we both trust, bring in foreign fighters we both trust, establish supply and communication lines, let's bring him down and then let's talk about what we want to see in Saddam's place (although it is still unexplained as to why the U.S. ever wanted to bring Saddam down when he was the perfect counterbalance to an emerging Iran and vice-versa). That way, Iran is happy, the U.S. is happy, everybody's happy. Demonizing every little thing about Iran is bullshit and totally unproductive. It is chasing a shadow while ignoring the true enemy who cares little about Iran right now. Thinking that attacking or subduing Iran is going halt the insurgency in Iraq would be catastrophic beyond all belief. It would merely be throwing water on a grease fire. The United States needs to admit that it is the sole cause of the situation there--not Iran--and act accordingly to change that situation. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1615582,00.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 28 Apr 07 - 12:30 PM BB-- Please be so good as to always give your sources--including author (if known)-- and publication--so we can judge objectivity or lack of same. Sometimes you do, sometimes not. Thanks so much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 28 Apr 07 - 03:58 AM "An intel official recently assigned to Baghdad told me he too thought the Administration's claims are ridiculous. Iraq is too chaotic and the insurgency too fragmented — both the Sunni and Shi'a — to determine the origin of arms. The Iranians certainly are arming Shi'a militias, but what happens to the arms once they get to Iraq are anyone's guess. Among other things, Sunni insurgent groups regularly raid Shi'a caches." http://jcgi.pathfinder.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1615582,00.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:15 PM Jus' like Guantanamo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:57 PM So they'll put the suspects on trial or release them if there isn't the evidence to do that? Pull the other one. That's not the New American Way, is it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:32 PM "But he acknowledges that evidence directly linking the Quds Force to the Karbala attack is so far inconclusive." In other words, no one knows what's going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:32 AM Was Tehran Behind an Iraq Raid? Thursday, Apr. 26, 2007 By MARK KUKIS/BAGHDAD When unknown gunmen abducted and killed five American soldiers from a joint U.S.-Iraqi base in Karbala in January, suspicion immediately fell on an elite Iranian paramilitary outfit called the Quds Force. The attack certainly bore signs of elaborate planning and professional execution: Nine to twelve fighters wearing U.S.-style military uniforms slipped onto the base driving sport utility vehicles, apparently duping guards at the gate. Once inside, the gunmen opened fire and threw grenades, killing one American soldier before seizing four others and speeding away. The entire operation was completed in roughly 20 minutes. On March 22, the U.S. military announced the arrest of Qais Khazali and his brother Laith, saying the two were apprehended in Basra and Hillah after coming under suspicion of involvement in the Karbala incident. Other arrests of the so-called Khazali network followed. Qais Khazali had been a protégé of Muqtada al Sadr in 2004 and 2005, but his relationship to Sadr and the cleric's Mahdi Army militia these days is unclear. Investigators who've been questioning Qais Khazali since his arrest say he has been working closely with the Quds Force in recent times, however, leading a group of Iraqi Shi'ite militants who've trained in Iran. Speaking to reporters on a visit to Washington, this week, Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, said Khazali's network was definitely behind the Karbala attack. "This is the head of the secret cell network," Petraeus said. "They were provided substantial funding, training on Iranian soil, advanced explosive munitions and technologies as well as run-of-the-mill arms and ammunition, in some cases advice, and in some cases even a degree of direction." Petraeus said Khazali's cell members kept detailed records of the Karbala attack and other operations, presumably to show Quds Force financiers and trainers. "There are numerous documents which detailed a number of different attacks on coalition forces, and our sense is that these records were kept so that they could be handed in to whoever it is that is financing them," Petraeus said. "And there's no question, again, that Iranian financing is taking place through the Quds Force of the Iranian Republican Guards Corps." Military officials in Baghdad following the ongoing investigation say Khazali himself had traveled frequently to Iran before his arrest. Investigators are still questioning Khazali about any involvement he may have personally had in the Karbala attack, and his possible ties currently to Sadr. The meaning of the evidence uncovered thus far in the Karbala investigation remains unclear. Connecting the dots one way creates a picture of an elite cell of Iraqi militants working closely with Iranian intelligence and potentially the Mahdi Army, tapping into a guerilla network of operatives and training camps stretching, in theory, from Baghdad to Tehran. Arrange the evidence another way, and Khazali looks like a rogue militant leader whose ties to the Quds Force or the Mahdi Army could be simply transactional business dealings. Petraeus, at least, seems inclined to believe the former. "This is speculation, but I think it is fairly logical speculation," Petraeus said. "We think that records are kept so that the individuals that carry out these attacks can demonstrate what they're doing to those who are providing the resources to them, providing the additional funding, training, arms, ammunition, advanced technologies and so forth." But he acknowledges that evidence directly linking the Quds Force to the Karbala attack is so far inconclusive. "We just can't confirm it. I can't say it wasn't there either. But we did not find, if you will, a direct fingerprint to it." Either way the biggest question of the Karbala attack is still unanswered: Who were the killers? The last sign of the gunmen was on a road leading away from the site of the attack toward Hillah, where they abandoned their five SUVs, shed their disguises and ditched their weapons, which turned out to be mockups of American guns. Local police say the engines were running when they came upon the vehicles and the four victims abducted by the attackers. The taillights of all the vehicles were broken, local police say, in an apparent attempt by the gunmen to make trailing them more difficult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 14 Apr 07 - 02:13 PM In other words, no one knows what's going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 14 Apr 07 - 10:48 AM "Iranian officials have said that the men are diplomats. Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi foreign minister and a Kurd, said in a telephone interview on Tuesday that although the men being held were not officially diplomats," In other words, no one knows what's going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 14 Apr 07 - 04:47 AM In other words, no one knows what's going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:43 AM "Vice President Dick Cheney's foreign policy advisers won an internal administration tussle over what to do with the men, U.S. officials confirmed on condition of anonymity. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice had argued for a quicker release but was overruled, partly out of concern not to make the release appear part of a deal involving the British, the sources said." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070413.wusiran0413/BNStory/International/home In other news, I heard it was the State Dept. that sent Condi with the message to release them. It was Cheney who blocked her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:18 AM Counter-Terrorism Policy in 1990s - Rendition and Disruption - PDD-39 in June 1995 Rendition - arrest or seizure of foreign national and extradition to US or to other country Rendition to 3rd Country - US law bars rendering anyone if torture would occur, but… - By-passed by obtaining undisclosed "assurances" - Maher Arar case (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/) - Tenet said 70 renditions occurred prior to 9/11 o Unclear where all were rendered to "Intelligence" Sharing - Foreign agencies provide information to US and US to foreign agencies - Used in immigration hearings - How accurate is the information? Disruption - legal methods to interfere with suspected operations - "investigate, detain or otherwise harass" Disruption by Covert Action - action abroad "where it is intended that the role of the United States Government will not be apparent or acknowledged publicly," preferably never. - Usually illegal action: e.g., assassination (non-political), arms supplies - Congressional leaders should be notified, but sometimes after-the-fact... http://www.public.iastate.edu/~pol_s.358/counter.pdf |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:10 AM Who says there have to be charges? The Iranians you are trying to protect don't see the need for charges. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 14 Apr 07 - 12:45 AM Dickey-- Thanks so much for your direct answer. And it only took 84 postings to squeeze it out. And you are correct. There are no charges. So why, pray tell, is the arrest of the Iranians "totally legal"? Or is it just that in the "war on terror" legality is just what Bush says it is? That sounds amazingly like a dictatorship. I don't think Americans will really like that idea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 14 Apr 07 - 12:40 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 13 Apr 07 - 01:39 AM The answer is there are no charges. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:50 AM "Otherwise, I'd say the presumption that diplomats are not criminals should play a role here. " Straw man, unless you still have problems reading (I can give your comments the respect they seserve, as well) The DIPLOMATS were released, as the article states. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:12 AM So Dickey compares the U.S. to Hezbollah as a way of avoiding your question, Ron. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:28 PM "Commanders of a splinter group inside the Shiite Mahdi Army militia have told The Associated Press that there are as many as 4,000 members of their organization that were trained in Iran and that they have stockpiles of EFPs, a weapon that causes great uneasiness among U.S. forces here because they penetrate heavily armored vehicles... "The Mahdi Army commanders who spoke to the AP did so on condition of anonymity because their organization is viewed as illegal by the American military and giving their names would likely lead to their arrest and imprisonment. They said Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards was running the training operation in Iran. Gen. Ramazan Sharif, spokesman of the Revolutionary Guards, denied ties with the Mahdi Army in Iraq...." http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=VASTR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:10 PM Mr. irritated, desparate Ron: What are the charges against the Israelis? If Iran's Hezbollah feels no charges are necessary, why are charges necessary to hold the Iranians? |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:14 PM I'm only calmly asking you for a direct answer. It says worlds about your credibility--unsurprisingly--that you can't seem to find one. It is after all the subject of the thread. Attempted digression is the refuge of the desperate. Would that be you? Just asking. It'll be interesting to see if you see this as an attack also. Just how sensitive are you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:48 PM Ron: I can see how upset you get whenever someone dares to disagree with you. Have you tried anger management? Iran Factor US Shows More "Iranian" Weapons Caldwell Reiterates Charges of Meddling by Tehran Posted 9 hr. 20 min. ago BAGHDAD, IRAQ - APRIL 11: Weapons seized in Iraq are shown during a news conference April 11, 2007 in Baghdad, Iraq. The US military on Wednesday reiterated charges that Iran is supplying weaponry and training to the insurgency in Iraq. "We know that (EFPs) are being in fact manufactured and smuggled into this country, and we know that training does go on in Iran for people to learn how to assemble them and how to employ them. We know that training has gone on as recently as this past month from detainees debriefs," U.S. military spokesman Major-General William Caldwell said at a weekly briefing. U.S. Army Maj. Marty Weber from the 79th Ordinance Battalion, holds a 107mm rocket at a news conference, April 11, 2007 in Baghdad, Iraq. Caldwell showed the Baghdad press corps EFPs he said were manufactured in Iran, as well as mortar rounds and rocket-propelled grenades, which he said were found at a house and in a car in Baghdad this week. "We also know that training still is being conducted in Iran for insurgent elements from Iraq. We know that as recent as last week from debriefing personnel," he said. The general would not specify which arm of the Iranian government was doing the training, but referred to the trainers "surrogates" of Iran's intelligence agency. Caldwell also said that two recently arrested insurgents reported having received training in Syria. The AP writes that sources inside a splinter group of the Madi Army reported that "there are as many as 4,000 members of their organization that were trained in Iran and that they have stockpiles of EFPs." http://www.iraqslogger.com/index.php/topic/71 |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:38 PM "American officials received information..." Wow, I''m impressed. Now we know exactly what the crimes were. Or maybe not. Try again. A few more specifics--like an actual charge of a specific crime--would be nice. Otherwise, I'd say the presumption that diplomats are not criminals should play a role here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Apr 07 - 09:32 PM Dickey-- Personal attack? Moi? I only give you all the respect you've proven you deserve--every bit of it. Isn't it enough? And I try to gently guide you towards exploring more reliable sources. Nice dodge, by the way. But how about going back to the topic of the thread--exactly what are the crimes the Iranians taken in Irbil have committed? It begins to look likely that neither you nor any other Bushite knows the answer--and therefore the allegation that the arrests were "completely legal" has no basis. Still patiently waiting for your answer on the specific question cited above--despite the fact that thread creep is a long and honored Mudcat tradition, let's try for once to avoid it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Apr 07 - 03:48 PM My God, how easily is the word "lie" hurled about when simply initial misinformation was all there ever was. The US army initially gave the information that there was an Iranian among those seeing the prisoners. This information of course was printed in the press as true. The next day, the Pentagon corrected the information and said that there was someone who spoke Farsi and had lived for some time in Iran but was a British citizen was in the delegation. Simple as that. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:33 PM I'll leave you guys to beat your dead horse all by yourselves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 02:23 PM Now exactly why are the Israelis being held by Hezbollah in spite of a UN resolution calling for them to be released? Who has has access to them? What are they charged with? Did a US armed force enter Iran and kidnap those 5 Iranians? Did an Iranian armed force enter Iraq waters and capture those 15 British sailors? |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:24 PM "A senior Western official in Baghdad said the raids were conducted after American officials received information that the people detained had been involved in attacks on official security forces in Iraq. "We conduct operations against those who threaten Iraqi and coalition forces," the official said. "This was based on information."" from the NY Times article... See, the official SAID they were involved in attacks- so it MUST be true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Apr 07 - 01:18 PM So, dianavan will take the word of the military over the Washington Post. I wonder when that will change... |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:54 AM BAGHDAD, April 6 (Reuters) - There were no Iranians in an International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) team that visited five detained Iranians held by the U.S. military in Iraq, the military said on Friday. Dickey - You really do need to do a little more reading. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 11:00 AM What Dianavan termed a lie was published by the Washington Post. By Joshua Partlow Washington Post Foreign Service Thursday, April 5, 2007; Page A12 BAGHDAD, April 4 -- The U.S. military has allowed the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit five Iranian officials who were detained in Iraq nearly three months ago on suspicion of plotting against American and Iraqi forces. A Red Cross delegation that included one Iranian citizen visited the detainees. Perhaps Ron should strike that newspaper from his list of qualified sources. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 11 Apr 07 - 10:48 AM Ron: What are the Israeli soldiers kidnapped by Hezbollah charged with? I do not presume to define what a reliable source is for you but evidently you think you have some superior intelligence that makes you the judge of such matters. Every statemnt you make must be supported by personal attacks because they cannot stand on their own. "One of the two committees contained an individual who speaks Farsi and lived in Iran, but he is a British citizen by birth," Who has been allowed to visit the Israelis? Were the 5 Iraninas taken by force in Iran? |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Ron Davies Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:47 PM Dickey-- The question still remains as to exactly what the Iranians taken in Irbil are charged with. And the continuing silence on your part--and all other Bushites-- as to this question is quite telling. And please be so good as to give a specific source. Sorry, the New York Sun does not qualify as an objective source--it's about one cut above the wisdom of Mr Limbaugh--if that. We need something along the lines of the Wall St Journal (reporting, not editorials), or the Economist. Sorry if that's not your normal fare--but if so, you'd be advised to broaden your reading--even though the articles may not always fit on a bumper sticker. Just keep your dictionary handy and you'll be fine. We'll teach you to do research--and I have confidence you'll eventually learn how--though it may take a while. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 11:22 PM Yes, I know the Iranian govt. has a terrible human rights record. What do you want to do, help the people of Iran like the U.S. helped the Iraqis? I am concerned about the Iranians because they are being held illegally and because they were in Iraq with the permission of the Iraqi government. They have not been charged and yet the rumours are flying. Does the U.S. have more power in Iraq than the Iraqi government? There is no comparison with the Israelis who were captured on the border of Lebanon/Israel by Hezbollah. Hezbollah may be backed by Iran but the U.S. backs alot of questionable characters as well. Using your logic, the U.S. should be held accountable for the actions of bin Laden and Saddam and... Or you could compare the number of Israelis held hostage to the number of men, women and children in Israeli prisons. We've been through this in other threads. Its just a red herring. Now exactly why are the five Iranians being held by the U.S.? btw, Dickey - There was no Iranian citizen with the Red Cross delegation. That was another lie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 10 Apr 07 - 10:29 PM Arezu, A young Iranian girl in her early twenties became the latest youth to commit suicide in Iran. last week, She jumped from a bridge in Hafez square in Tehran. Arezu (meaning desire and hope) lost all hopes & find life unbearable in misogynist Iran under the Ayatollahs. Arezu and many more have lost their lives so the greedy EU & the filthy Brits can live better lives by looting Iran. Iran has the highest rate of suicide in the world. http://activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=30585&sid=1bb22875f081120091f8b2f8d7464595 |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Peace Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:46 PM "But Canadians don't have to follow the complex nuclear dispute to be convinced of Iran's bad faith regarding truthfulness; they need only remember the brutal beating death of Canadian-Iranian photojournalist Zahra Kazemi in the summer of 2003. Kazemi, to refresh people's memories, was arrested on June 23 while peacefully taking photographs of a public protest outside a prison near Tehran. Three days later, she was rushed to hospital, in a coma, her skull fractured. She never regained consciousness, dying on July 11. Iranian officials first claimed she had a stroke while being interrogated; they later admitted she died from a brain hemorrhage after a beating in custody. Canadian officials and her immediate family in Montreal were denied an independent autopsy and access to the body. Against the wishes of her son and Canadian diplomats, she was quickly buried in Iran. After a farcical secret trial of low-level officials on charges of "semi-intentional" murder brought an acquittal, Iranian officials suggested she had fallen, striking her head. The matter remains unresolved." |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 10 Apr 07 - 09:42 PM "Lets compare their treatment to the treatment of the 15 Brits released by the Iranians." Now that you are into comaparisons, Let's compare the five Iranians to the Israelis kidnapped by an armed force of Iran, Hezbollah, created, trained, financed, armed, equipped, supported and commanded by Iran. "The U.S. military has allowed the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit five Iranian officials who were detained in Iraq nearly three months ago on suspicion of plotting against American and Iraqi forces. A Red Cross delegation that included one Iranian citizen visited the detainees, and a request for a formal consular visit with them is "being assessed at this time" http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/04/AR2007040402613.html?nav=rss_world Has the same courtesy and respect been shown for The Israelis kidnapped on July 12, 2006? Dianavan wants to give a pass on terrorisim to a theocracy who treats women like dogs. http://www.activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4611 |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 05:41 PM Sorry. I used the wrong wording. I should have said, where are the five Iranians being held illegally by the U.S.? Lets compare their treatment to the treatment of the 15 Brits released by the Iranians. At least let us have a look at them. Yes, they are being detained illegally. They have been held for more than two months and have not been charged. I'm surprised they haven't confessed to something by now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Apr 07 - 04:21 PM "Where are the five Iranians captured illegally " Different case. The Brits were kidnapped in IRAQI waters, where they were legally. The Iranians DID NOT have the right, under international law, to detain them. The Iranians were captured in IRAQ, during a military operation. The military DOES have the right to detain them while investigating their actions in Iraq. How are they being held "illegally"? Do they claim to have been in Iran at the time they were captured? Are they being investigated for what THEY are accused of doing? Otherwise we may be forced to the conclusion that you don't know any more about it than we do---and therefore the assertion that the arrests were "illegal" has no support. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 04:06 PM A Theocracy is not the same as a Democracy but we do hold them to the same standards, internationally. We are speaking of a specific incident in this thread. Lets not spread it so thin that we can't cut to the chase. Where are the five Iranians captured illegally by the U.S.? Lets compare their treatment to the treatment of the 15 Brits released by the Iranians. At least let us have a look at them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: beardedbruce Date: 10 Apr 07 - 03:52 PM "The United States should be held to a higher standard" So, you think that the Iranians are NOT to be held to the standards you would hold the US? Is it that they are not "civilized" enough, or do they have a special dispensation from God? |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 03:48 PM Yes, we know that. Iran is a theocracy. They have different laws. Laws that I would not like to live under. The United States should be held to a higher standard. So why can't we take a look at the five Iranians that are being held illegally? We have seen no bruises or marks of any kind on the British. Lets hope the Iranian hostages are as lucky. |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 10 Apr 07 - 03:18 PM Human rights in Iran Today, the state of human rights in Iran continues to be generally considered a source of significant concern. Despite many efforts by Iranian human right activists, writers, NGOs and international critiques as well as several resolutions by the UN General Assembly and the UN Human Rights Commission, the government of Iran continues to restrict freedom of speech, gender equality and other forms of freedom. Furthermore, the Islamic regime of Iran continues to disregard the The government of Iran has been called by several human rights groups as one of today's leading abusers of human rights, whose leaders repeatedly remove any sort of freedom including even those granted by basic human existence. According to Amnesty International's 2004 report, at least 108 people were executed that year, most of whom had been detained as political prisoners. Amnesty has also described cases in which adolescent children were sentenced to the death penalty. Though illegal, torture is often carried out in Iranian prisons, as in the widely publicised case of photojournalist Zahra Kazemi. Like 74 other countries in the world, Iran carries out capital punishment. As a State party to the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and the Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC), Iran has undertaken not to execute anyone for an offence committed when they were under the age of 18, despite continuing to carry out such executions, and is one of only six nations in the world to do so. According to Article 6 of the ICCPR, "sentence of death shall not be imposed for crimes committed by persons below eighteen years of age.". In 2004, Iran ranked second in the world by total number of confirmed executions having carried out 159, coming behind the People's Republic of China, who committed at least 1,770. In 2005, the number dropped to 94 confirmed executions, either by hanging or stoning. Death sentences are always administered for those convicted of murder, rape, and child molestation. Iranian youths Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni on the scaffold. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Iran |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: dianavan Date: 10 Apr 07 - 01:15 PM "We found plans for attacks, phone numbers affiliated with Sunni bad guys, a lot of things that filled in the blanks on what these guys are up to," the official said. Why is this a surprise? As far as Iran, "working with individuals affiliated with Al Qaeda in Iraq and Ansar al-Sunna." that is speculation. This article was written in January. There is a big difference between "influence, support and aid." Which do you suppose it might be. It doesn't appear that the "officials" are very certain about this. Don't you think that if there was any foundation for these accusations, we would have heard something more by now? If its true, everyone (except the Baathists) are working together to force the U.S. out. That means that the only people not opposed to the U.S. occupation, are the people that were forced out of power by the U.S. Wrap your head around that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: five Iranians captured by U.S. From: Dickey Date: 10 Apr 07 - 12:48 AM "An American intelligence official said the new material, which has been authenticated within the intelligence community, confirms "that Iran is working closely with both the Shiite militias and Sunni Jihadist groups." The source was careful to stress that the Iranian plans do not extend to cooperation with Baathist groups fighting the government in Baghdad, and said the documents rather show how the Quds Force the arm of Iran's revolutionary guard that supports Shiite Hezbollah, Sunni Hamas, and Shiite death squads is working with individuals affiliated with Al Qaeda in Iraq and Ansar al-Sunna. Another American official who has seen the summaries of the reporting affiliated with the arrests said it comprised a "smoking gun." "We found plans for attacks, phone numbers affiliated with Sunni bad guys, a lot of things that filled in the blanks on what these guys are up to," the official said. New York Sun: "One of the documents captured in the raids, according to two American officials and one Iraqi official, is an assessment of the Iraq civil war and new strategy from the Quds Force. According to the Iraqi source, that assessment is the equivalent of "Iran's Iraq Study Group," a reference to the bipartisan American commission that released war strategy recommendations after the November 7 elections. The document concludes, according to these sources, that Iraq's Sunni neighbors will step up their efforts to aid insurgent groups and that it is imperative for Iran to redouble efforts to retain influence with them, as well as with Shiite militias. The news that Iran's elite Quds Force would be in contact, and clandestinely cooperating, with Sunni Jihadists who attacked the Golden Mosque in Samarra (one of the holiest shrines in Shiism) on February 22, could shake the alliance Iraq's ruling Shiites have forged in recent years with Tehran. Many Iraq analysts believe the bombing vaulted Iraq into the current stage of its civil war." |
