BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: GUEST,carl
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:01 PM

This type of humour is always available to those who seek it out and like it. I suspect few would change this.

But, what has changed is the Ali G (and Borat) type humour is now considered main stream, right there in the face of everyone, including those who consider it offensive and the young.

It certainly tells us that there is a big change in the direction of what is interpreted as community values and what is broadly acceptable. I suspect there will be a backlash at some point. Imus may be a sign of a correction of this interpretation in the near future..

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:28 AM

I have been banned on over 30 websites for my visual and verbal parody and satire.

People who do not care for parody and satire when their ox is gored are often adamant in their protest.

Furthermore my entire website was removed without permission for reasons unstated and unknown to me.

If I had to guess it was by religious or anti parody zealots who can pull stings.

Pentacostals, evangelicals and fundamentalists have a mission, and it doesn't include the free speech or science of select individuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:36 PM

I hope he makes more. He is clever and perceptive, and funny. His various characters all serve a purpose.

I'd love to see him work with Kevin Smith.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:56 PM

One must hope that the Borat garbage will rapidly disappear from view.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Greg B
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:13 PM

QED, mg.

Some folks just don't 'get' Borat, like they didn't 'get'
Andy Kaufman.

Appears you're either one of them--- or playing the role
of one of 'em. (You never know, when talking about either
'Borat' or Kaufman.)

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:36 AM

Many years ago, there was a passage in Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. In it he refers to humor, using the analogy of monkeys in a zoo. He pointed out that humor is about pain [even puns].

Both Borat and Imus are about pain. Imus is/was a so-called insult comedian and Borat is about putting people up in public and making them twist and turn in a sort of auto de fe.

It is hard to say which is worse. Imus brings out the worst in himself and if you challenge him you are poor sport. Borat holds people up to ridicule for their own behavior--which he goads them into. Either one is a death of a thousand cuts and ultimately makes people feels worse about themselves.

Kaufman fell somewhere between them but the results were similar. After being 'on' with him, people often felt embarassed and foolish if they had any sense.

All three are very effective styles. When they lead to people learning about themselves, they provide a useful act. When they are simply there to pander and make people laugh at the goat while thinking "Am I glad I'm not that idiot" they are simply nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: mg
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:16 AM

And Kazaghstan is a real country and he said several times on the movie that that is where he is from. Sorry, I have known people from thyat part of the world, Ubzekistan mostly,and I don't like to see them ridiculed..no..beyond that..with talks about 7 year olds in pedophilic ways...worse than ridiculed for being perhaps unsophisticated. Presented as degenerate. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: mg
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:12 AM

Well, the nice people in the bed and breakfast he made fun of did.

What was the deal with him assaulting Pamela Anderson? Was she in on it? Was she acting? Even so....mg

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:06 AM

I never once thought Borat was a real person from a real country.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: mg
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:35 AM

OK..Now he is a guest on a Georgia TV show...he says you come to my country, stay in my house and sleep with my sister. He is representing himself as a person from a real country. How is this respectful to them and for heavens sake, how does it show us our prejudices etc.? What blather. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: mg
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:21 AM

OK. I rented it and I am watching it..it is more disgusting than I was prepared for....."the ass-hole of a seven-year old girl" "fucking my mother", the "running of the Jew." Creating what look like, unless done with professional stunt drivers etc., traffic hazards with cars, busses. Chasing people down the street. Essentially doing what we would consider assaulting them. Letting a chicken loose on a subway..was that acting or for real? That is a hazard for various reasons...I shall force myself to watch more of it but so far I think I had one chuckle and huge amount of disgust. I am repulsed by the thought of going back to it but consider it my social duty. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: mg
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:17 PM

Then he should go right after Imus and his ilk,,,he should not use the Gypsies of Romania, living in dirt-poor conditions, or the people of Khad..sstan..I am not going to even try to spell it... to make his point. He at the very least could have made up a mythical country. Once again, I have not seen the movie, although I was watching for it to come through town. Maybe it did and I missed it. But I am not talking about the contents of the movie itself. I saw him plenty of times on TV and he said plenty on which I base my judgement. I am actually talking about the dirty tricks he used on the Gypsies in the Romanian village, who were deeply mortified by what was done to them. Have you seen the documentaries about the Romanian orphanages some years ago? Well, that is where people would have had to place their children to give them an improved chance in life, if you can imagine. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: TIA
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:06 PM

Nope, I'll say it again. Borat and Imus are different. Borat is lampooning racist pigs like Imus (and the pigs usually don't even know it).

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Greg B
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 03:05 PM

Oh, but some of those camera angles in Borat--- there were
definitely some views in there which put me right off my
popcorn.

That said, my favorite parts of it were the truly crude
humor. In that respect, Borat seems a bit like the 'Jackass'
movies, or even 'The Three Stooges.' Someone always says to
me--- 'It's a guy thing.'

Maybe the same is true of Howard Stern and Imus, as well.

Or 'The Man Show.'

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 02:03 PM

Come on Peace, you know what I meant. This is a discussion, not an arguement.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: M.Ted - PM
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:46 PM

You don't have to like anyone you don't want to like, Peace-- "

Why, THANK you.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:47 PM

"The 'jokes' were to illustrate a point. I find them tasteless and racial."

Yet you repeated them.   How is that different from saying it in the first place?

I'm not disagreeing with you Q, I'm just pointing out that is a fine line and intent is the more important factor. I do believe that actions speak louder than words, and as Lenny Bruce said - they are only words. Intent should have a greater bearing on what the individual does with those words. I do not believe that a word by itself expresses hatred.

There is no reason that you should find them funny or tolerate them. There is no reason that Peace should find Borat funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:46 PM

You don't have to like anyone you don't want to like, Peace--

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:38 PM

The 'jokes' were to illustrate a point. I find them tasteless and racial.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:16 PM

OK. Gotcha. I guess I will remain ignorant as to the doings of Borat. Thanks for the reply, Ron.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:12 PM

Peace, a clip might make you laugh, or it might not. The film might make you laugh, or it might not. The point is that the clips can be taken out of context when not viewed as part of the whole.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:04 PM

I watched Borat at home on video with the 'straightest' friend I have. She said, "I'm so glad I got to watch this with you. I would never be able to watch it with any of my other friends and certainly not my family. Its extremely funny - except for the wrestling which was really over the top."

I have a feeling her friends would think Imus was O.K. They would have fit right in at the dinner party.

Borat and Imus are not in the same league at all!

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:02 PM

I will watch ONE more. Then report back to the committee. Please suggest one to watch. BUT, I want it to be funny or have a point. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:48 PM

"True. But I don't WANT to know the whole subject. That is much like saying, "You have to eat the whole plate of spaghetti to know the sauce isn't very good." "

But you can't legitimately say the spaghetti or the meal was bad, you say the sauce sucked. You can't critique the entire meal because of one bad element. If you aren't hungry, you aren't hungry and should not complain about the whole buffet.

To watch one clip and not see it in the context of the film is not a way to judge the "corpus" of his work. It just isn't enough, and it can be taken out of context.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:38 PM

"You can't watch a clip and feel that you know the whole subject."

True. But I don't WANT to know the whole subject. That is much like saying, "You have to eat the whole plate of spaghetti to know the sauce isn't very good." You watch his corpus of work; I won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:35 PM

M Ted. I am not deciding for you that he's not funny. I did say "IMO". That means that for ME he is not funny. I could give a rat's ass whether you roll on the floor over his humour. If that's for you, good. Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:16 PM

Q, you find it offensive yet you have no problem sharing a "Uke" joke?

You can't watch a clip and feel that you know the whole subject. It would be like judging Michaelangelo's "David" by only looking at the toes.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:10 PM

Apparently, if you aren't funny, you must be burned alive. And, also apparently, it takes only one person to decide you aren't funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: TIA
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:03 AM

No. Skewers. Skews means something else. But I am guessing you probably knew that.

My point is - whether one finds it funny or not. Borat and Imus are not the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:03 AM

That makes him someone who skews. It don't make him someone who's funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:01 AM

I you've seen Borat, and "get it", you would realize that Borat is skewering people who behave like Imus.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Peace
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:45 AM

Not a literalist. I just don't find the guy funny. I expect comedians and humourists to be funny. He ain't, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:46 AM

too many literalists??

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 02:15 AM

You got that right, Metchosin.

Imus is dangerous. Borat is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 12:24 AM

I watched the clips about the film only on Canadian television; and what I saw I didn't like. I would not go to see the film.
Neither would a friend of Ukrainian descent who also was upset by the footage he saw.
It wasn't very long ago that 'Ukes' here were ridiculed, even by a couple of their own so-called humorists, but now parody and jokes about Ukranian mentality are no longer accepted. Nor is a Uke-trap at oil rigs drilling near their farms.
The first joke I heard when I came to Alberta-
How many Ukrainians does it take to change a light bulb?
One to hold the bulb and 40 to turn the house around.

Also the one about a Ukrainian flyswatter. Ugh!

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 11:09 PM

Sacha Cohen is a master of parody and a hoot! Imus, on the other hand, is not. Cohen holds up prejudice, to confront us and Imus embraces it as a way of life. That's my opinion, take it or leave it.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 10:49 PM

"The gypsies did not understand what was being done."

You mean they normally get requests to allow animals into their homes? That is a crock.

If you honestly think Borat will "poison" the minds of people to East Europeans, Jews, blacks, homosexuals, etc. - then you obviously did not watch the film.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: mg
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 08:24 PM

I saw it I think...but I think he was defending the creep. Maybe someone should make a list and update us on our I-Pods..oh first I would have to master how to use them..and tell us who it is OK to demean this week and who not. Otherwise people like me get confused. And explain slowly and carefully how he is holding a mirror to us and showing us this and that..repeat once or twice so we truly understand.mg

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 08:11 PM

His main character was an idiot British rap star who interviews the top people in the US goverment, religious scholars, veternarians etc.

People would bear his ignorance and try to help him understand.
The one person who would not continue the interview after 10 seconds was Andy Rooney who said, "this guy is an idiot, there is no more interview"

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 08:02 PM

I watched one thing done by BBorat. Folks, he's not funny.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 07:57 PM

Borat (or whatever his name) is disgusting. The gypsies did not understand what was being done. What Imus did was wrong and he had to be stopped, but the slimy 'humor' of Borat will continue to poison attitutes towards east Europeans for a long time to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 07:03 PM

Today on Face the Nation, the standing Republican talking head used this exact Borat-Imus equivalent argument.

I guess this originated from right wing blogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Mickey191
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 06:35 PM

Bill D. mentions Jay Leno Almost going over the line. St. Patrick's Day Night-he went way over the line. He had a street interview with average citizens answering questions. The audience was then asked to decide (by applause) if the interviewees were drunk or sober.

An analogy might be: Showing Italian people being judged if they are _In_ the Mafia or _Not_ in the Maffia?   

You'll never see that skit. (I would not want to) But it continues to be ok to paint the Irish with a broad brush.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 01:27 AM

This is a load of cobblers from someone who has obviously never created anything in his (her) life.

He's a film maker. he used the the village as a location   like a songwriter uses a chord.

if they had been a bit more savvy - they would have got a lot more off him. There is a pub in our village that has featured in every DH Lawrence film I've ever seen. Places like New York and Dublin have entire administrative departments making sure people get the going rate from film makers. Romania has not got its act together - no doubt after this, it will do. In fact Romania wants to go to him, and publicly ask for a bit more money - he's done pretty well out of them. A high profile guy like that would find it hard to refuse publicly.

if you want to see real exploitation - hang around ANY group of musicians. Most of them can tell you tales of their music being ripped off and there being NO redress afforded by the sophisticcated legal systems of our countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 11:52 PM

"To me there has always been a similarity between Andy Kaufman and Sacha Baron Cohen (Borat, Ali G.). The difference between them is that Andy K. (who I adored) is that Andy K. would never step out of character as Cohen does (to give interviews)."

That isn't exactly true.   Cohen stayed in character when he was promoting the film. He does give interviews now as himself, as he has done other movie parts as well. I think the problem with Andy Kaufman is that he was often afraid to step out of character.

I also think Kaufman was brilliant, and I agree with the analogy. I saw Kaufman once when he was in an awful Broadway play about wrestling. The production starred Debbie Harry, from the group Blondie, as a female wrestler, and Kaufman was a referee.   Before the show, Kaufman was walking through the audience (in character) checking ticket stubs and giving the audience a bit extra. It struck me as interesting that while most actors would have been sitting in their dressing rooms trying to get into part, Kaufman was already living it and going out of his way to connect with the audience.   The play was awful and closed within days.

As for the Romanian village, I find it very interesting that this poor village would have allowed him to film in the manner that he did. He paid these people a few dollars to bring to animals into their homes and act parts. If they felt that bringing animals into there homes for a documentary would help them get more money from the government, then perhaps there is an element of fraud to their motives?    I don't think he held a gun to their head to do this.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 10:32 PM

Read what he did to the people of that Romanian (Gypsy)village who were humiliated by him and want to assemble enough money to sue him. They just wanted money for electricity for their village or something and were led to believe they were being filmed for a documentary about the privations in their lives and this would lead to better infrastructure. It is absolutely horrible. Some of it was real and some of it was staged to make them seem even more poverty stricken and there were a number of very degrading elements to it.

You know, I'll say it again..we can either believe all people need to be treated decently and not made fun of or not. When we start making exceptions..these women can be called vile names but these go to college and play basketball so they are exempt from it...or we can make fun of people supposedly from the ...Stan countries even if it was filmed elsewhere but we can't make fun of this and that group..

it's not civil and it is not decent. It's playing some game of in group and out group and people would go crazy trying to track who it is OK to be abusive towards this week. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 06:49 PM

comedy spans a very wide range of concepts. I was rather surprised when Imus said "this is a comedy show"....I never felt his offbeat patter and strange interviews were comedy,(unlike Jon Stewart, for example) though there was some obvious attempts at light humor. I considered him a 'talk show specializing in sports and eccentric views of celebrities'...if that makes sense.

*IF* he had been clearly a comedy act, like Jay Leno's stand-up, which occasionally goes right up TO 'the line', I would have seen his stupid remark in a different light....and if he were a comedian, he could no doubt just move his venue. He got the ax because he was a commentator who went WAY beyond the bounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 06:34 PM

Mary - The movie was so obviously fictional that nobody should take it personally. It focused mainly on America, anyway. The part about his 'hometown' was just a fictional background to enable Cohen to expose the racism and sexism of America by playing the part of a totally naive tourist from another land.

If the film had been a documentary, that would be another matter but give it a break, there is plenty of racism and sexism in film today. Why rant about this one film, especially if you've never seen it.

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 06:21 PM

An interesting aside to my earlier comments re: Andy Kaufman.   He was so good at what he did that when he died of cancer a lot of people honestly believed he was putting everyone on again.   

The musical group REM has a song for him---Man On The Moon


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Revisit Borat in relation to Imus fiasco
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 06:10 PM

Borat is an entirely different situation than Imus. But let me give a critique of him and his "art" that has nothing to do with Imus--Imus is not parodist.

To me there has always been a similarity between Andy Kaufman and Sacha Baron Cohen (Borat, Ali G.). The difference between them is that Andy K. (who I adored) is that Andy K. would never step out of character as Cohen does (to give interviews). His (AK) put-ons were just that with no break to say---hey, I'm just kidding.   You had to figure it out for yourself.   From his craziness with wrestlers (that actually devolved into damage to himself) to "shtick" about being a no talent and then morphing into Elvis.

An intersting aside about him is that, while he was brilliant in Taxi he did it only for the money---as he said---hated the job. Never rehearsed and did most of his material on the fly. This got him no love from Jud Hirsch. The others seemed to have liked him.

Read his bio written by Bob Zmuda---Andy's sometime replacement as his alter ego--Tony Clifton---among other things.   

You will find out some pretty interesting things---including Michael Richards short fuse is not a new thing, his creation of characters that he had people believing were real.   Which brings us back to the begining re: Cohen and Kaufman. He never stepped out of character--he could talk to the press but not about his characters--they spoke as themselves at all times. You had to believe for a time there was a Tony Clifton (he coulda been a star but Im big in the tricounty area).

Bill Hahn