BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:41 PM

And its relative, nettles.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:40 PM

a weed species that can grow on marginal land WITHOUT additional water, fertilizer, etc that will process WITHOUT added energy costs

You're talking about hemp aren't you Mario? Could save the planet...

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: MMario
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:33 PM

Now GreenFuel seems to be working up some practical alternatives - what with co-generation, additional byproducts and reduced emmissions all wrapped up together.

And the research into switchgrass or something similar is a definate plus over corn or soy. (see the last couple of paragraphs on the page)

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:19 PM

I have heard that same 15% figure. Not sure if it was, as you say, ALL the corn and soybeans or just the "surplus" but either way it is a limited option that will create as many (or more) problems as it solves.

I saw on the news the other day that the drought in the southeast US is causing a new problem. Many farmers planted corn instead of cotton this year but corn needs more water so they are facing the possibility of not getting much of a crop. I doubt if they irrigation as an option because they haven't needed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: open mike
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:40 AM

as much as i hate to admit it
i heard that if ALL the corn and soybeans
grown in the U.s. were converted to BIO
fuel this would only serve 15% or so of hte
fuel needs--and not solve the hunger problem.

the thing that scares me is the shortage of
tequila! if we live in such a world we should
need a stiff drink regularly to cope with it!

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:29 AM

Ultimately, of course, there only a very few ways to reduce use of fossil fuels.
1)conservation --easiest, simplest but limited in effectiveness
2)solar energy (in all its forms, including wind and water power) Great, but not yet generally cost effective.
3) Biofuels--very limited in capability; impact on food production
4)geothermal--fine, where it;s available; very expensive where it's not

5)nuclear
Name your poison(s)

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:06 AM

Using 'surplus' corn..etc...for bio-fuels to stretch supplies might be fine, but growing monoculture crops IN ORDER to build dependencies on them is a serious error. Brazil has done something like that, but at increasing cost to the rain forest.
We already have monoculture in some forestry...with resultant problems in species diversity. Monoculture is highly dangerous in another way also: any disease or drought or pest infeststion can wipe out the crop....and we know what excess pesticides can do.

Better be careful.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:47 AM

Can we afford to NOT go biofuels? Is the long term alternative acceptable?

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:08 AM

A lot of this goes back to the sugar monopolists keeping imported cane sugar out in favor of the sugar beet growers. Now, they are working to keep cheaper ethanol out in favor of the corn processors.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:59 AM

It also encourages even more fencerow to fencerow planting. This eliminates buffer strips that help filter out fertilizers and herbicides and also help slow erosion.

I was not enthusiastic about ethanol after I learned more about what it really means but now I am aghast! I had not considered the impact on beer prices. I say we man the baricades.

Subject: We Can't Afford Biofuels
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:36 AM

It may have started as a shaggy dog joke for John, but environmentalists have known for a long time that growing monoculture crops of corn to give oneself the undeserved pat-on-the-back for being more "environmentally friendly" by using ethanol is a pipe dream (and a Madison Avenue bonanza--so few people seem to be paying any attention to the man behind the curtain). The impact of the agriculture is in sum just as bad on the environment, and as he points out, subverts the local food crops. Much of the fertilizer they use is petroleum-based, so there is no savings in barrels of oil (plus all of that heavy farm equipment chugging up and down the fields as they hasten erosion).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: MMario
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:34 AM

The approach to biofuels being used is crazy - what needs to be done is find a weed species that can grow on marginal land WITHOUT additional water, fertilizer, etc that will process WITHOUT added energy costs (ie, natural fermentation).

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: skipy
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:22 AM

Flying is DEFINITELY on its way out!
Take a look at the number of new runways planned for the next 20 years!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: saulgoldie
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:11 AM

Biofuels is not the solution to the situation we are in. At best, they could only replace a small percentage of our fuel needs. And they steal valuable crops from other important uses, like as food. And the resources they consume greatly offset any gains.

The solution, love it or shove it is to get around in more fuel efficient ways, or get around less. Fewer miles, more people in each vehicle--pooling/buses/trains/subways--other modes like walking and cycling. (Flying is DEFINITELY on its way out.) These are not just pie in the sky. They are necessities. We have no choice. Even if we had enough biofuel, it is still burning which contributes to global warming.

Did I just hijack this thread? Sorry. I am passionate on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:05 AM

and corn is one of the least-effficient sources for ethanol, in terms of demands on land use, water demands and processing.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:09 AM

Well, I'll have to admit it was a rather long joke - with a fairly weak punchline; but it is cause for thought perhaps(?).

That damned "principle of the unexpected effects" thing, I believe it's called.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 31 May 07 - 07:41 AM

Yes, John - without tequila I could live sometimes although I like it very much, but the rising of the beer price is a horror scenario nobody had dared to dream of a year before. And this from the famous Ayinger!

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 May 07 - 07:12 AM

Now we're not joking around:

May 30, 2007

Biofuel brews up higher German beer prices: Farmers abandoning barley for crops that produce ethanol

I'm not sure some of us can face a future of this kind.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 May 07 - 07:11 AM

The situation begins to get really serious:

May 29, 2007

Ethanol boom may fuel shortage of tequila: Mexican farmers burning agave fields and replanting them with corn

Could this have a long-term effect rivaling global warming?

One can burn the agave and get a corn crop in the next season; but I've understood that returning to the production of agave requires a multi-year buildup before crops sufficiently mature for harvest are produced.

It may be a one-way trip.

[more to come?]


John

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 May 07 - 07:09 AM

An immediate impact of increased US ethanol production has already been noted in international markets.

January 27, 2007

A Culinary and Cultural Staple in Crisis: Mexico Grapples With Soaring Prices for Corn -- and Tortillas

While the impact of rising corn prices has been fairly moderate in the US itself, rising corn prices here have already led to increased corn exports from Mexico, and presumedly from other countries where corn products are an essential staple food.

It appears, with only mild exaggeration, that exporters are willing to deprive their own population of necessary food in order to profit from an inflated export market.

It's difficult to assess the accuracy and real impact of a situation one is far removed from observing first hand, but the article does present the impression that marginal people who rely on corn products for ther very life are facing hardship.

[more to come?]

John

Subject: BS: Can We Afford Biofuels?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 May 07 - 07:08 AM

By now probably everyone is aware of Willie Diesel (bioWillie) and the beneficial effects it's had on farm income in a few limited areas. As currently operating, and as projected for at least the short term, it's produced real benefits for a few cropland areas; but can't be expected to have a lot of impact as an alternative fuel source to displace petro-diesel nationwide or worldwide.

A somewhat larger petroleum demand impact may be possible with ethanol production, and startups of new ethanol plants have been booming. At present, ethanol can be efficiently produced only from grains, and the preferred grain is corn.

The few running ethanol plants in my home state of Kansas are already consuming more than half of the state's corn crop, and many new plants are being proposed and built. Farm production is already beginning to be switched from other needed crops to corn, in order to meet the demand of existing ethanol stills.

A problem that already is apparent is the requirement for greatly increased water supply for growing corn, compared to other crops being discontinued, and "water rights wars" that have been a constant presence for decades, if not for centuries, are beginning to look "puny" in the face of intense competition for water that can be predicted in the near future if present trends continue.

Modern corn crop production is also fertilizer intensive, leading to the possibility of massive increases in runoff polution – especially in areas where low-water corn cropping is attempted. As the most "efficient" fertilizers are produced from petroleum, the net gain – in terms of reducing petro dependency – from using ethanol is still unproven.

Beef farmers, in particular, have already seen increases of as much as 30% in corn-based feed costs, due to competition from existing ethanol plants. Other meat producers are beginning to be seriously concerned.

While there are some trade-offs that can be made in livestock feed, particularly by feeding production residues from ethanol plants back into the feed supply chain, the benefits and safety of using these residuals in large quantities will have to be demonstrated. Biodiesel production produces somewhat different residuals, which will have to separately validated for use as feeds or feed supplements.

One current study (Glycerin tested as alternative cattle feed) proposes using the glycerine byproduct from biodiesel production as an animal food, but admits that it is unknown how much of the product can be safely used as a feed additive, and also speculates that glycerine, being a globally used industrial product, may be quickly diverted to other uses, making it unavailable as an economical livestock feed supplement.

[more to come?]

John