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How to handle criticism?
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jun 07 - 04:43 AM Can I just defend the clubs we're talking about please, with no judgement on either Northerner or the other people who have contributed to this thread, but rather just as an impartial observer to the picture that is being portrayed. The clubs in question are two of the most respected, well run and knowledgeable clubs in the North of England. Ballads (the traditional variety e.g. Child, border etc) are often sung and always well received. Poetry is a frequent and welcome addition to many evenings and there are also members who have put historical poems to music and others who perform recitations. Whilst many of the tips offered here are well meant, and very useful in other settings, I believe these clubs have audiences who generally have a mature outlook and a broad knowledge of the many manifestations of what may be loosely termed 'folk' - definately not 'chorus only' clubs or ones with members who need to be taught to listen. I do not wish to criticise 'Northerner' or make a judgement on her choice of material and presentation style, but I would hate to think that a false impression of these clubs was gleaned from the postings. Please don't be put off from visiting us. Any meaningful item, however obscure/long/complex is likely to be well received if offered honestly in the spirit of sharing with peers. Unbiased Listener.
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Northerner Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:54 AM Thank you Mike. Yes, I'd say we do have a divide in some of our clubs, between song and spoken word. I do in fact try to personalise and/or localize some of my stories, where appropriate, so that they are more relevant for audiences. It's a sad fact that in England the art of storytelling had largely died out before a revival started to take place 10/20 years ago. I am extremely fortunate that I had a period of my life when I was a regular at a club with one of the storytellers from the oral tradition, so my experience is different from probably many of the other performers at the clubs in this area. One of the performers at the local clubs told me that there was no place for spoken word at a folk club. This person is a relative newcomer, but it does indeed show that we have a task of education before us. We cannot assume that all newcomers will understand the fuller implications of the folk tradition. An old-fashioned ceilidh, what we often strive to emulate during singarounds, would have had not only songs and music, but also people reciting monologues, favourite poems, even their own poems, jokes, riddles, and of course the occasional story. It would have been much more diverse than what is emerging as the modern folk club. What I find exhilerating about the Traveller performers is the ease with which they go between the different artforms. They just don't seem to have these divides. Guest/Unbaised Listener, yes, these are both excellent clubs. Most people are very welcoming to me. We do, however, have a few individuals who have, shall I say this carefully? little tact in their handling of other performances. I make very little criticism of other performers and try to be positive of their performances. I am not a novice now, but I am still a learner. It takes several years to be a really good storyteller - what you would also expect of a singer or a musician. We don't become good overnight. I am sorry if a particular performance doesn't always hit the mark, but I learn from every performance. All I ask for is a little bit more forbearance while I learn and improve. I would try to give that to another performer. I am in the middle of arranging more workshops for myself. I have stories that I practically bled over during masterclasses earlier in the year, and which were praised highly by top, highly experienced storytellers. In them I had integrated song and music with my stories. But can you wonder if I am hesitant about doing them at a folk club? |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: M.Ted Date: 19 Jun 07 - 12:37 PM I don't wonder at your hesitation at all, Northerner. As a performer, you must be sensitive to your audience, and it makes you vulnerable to those who make a point of discouraging any artist whose work is not to their taste-- And, Unbiased Listener, you should understand that, though a hundred may quietly approve, the one who vocally disapproves is the one who sets the tone for your venue. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST Date: 19 Jun 07 - 01:56 PM Some of the best nights I ever spent at a club were the ones where you had a mix of singing and storytelling - particularly with guests like the Stewarts of Blair or Willie McFee. Some of the feature evenings around a theme worked superbly, with a thoughtful mix of song, story and poetry - 'Battle of the Sexes' 'Crime and Criminals' etc. Having said this, traditional storytelling needs to be thought about - it can, and often is, extremely 'twee'. This is why, initially on this thread, I was pleased that somebody was thinking enough about it to actually comment on it. Jim Carroll PS Re. the narrative nature of song; here in the West of Ireland, some older singers used to talk about "telling" rather than singing a song.
Thanks. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: Bert Date: 19 Jun 07 - 02:42 PM Regarding the line between a story and a song. One time I had this idea for a song and no matter how hard I tried to write it, every time I added rhyme or rhythm to it, it sounded trite and contrived. So I just gave up and told it as a story. A couple of weeks later someone came up to me and asked me about THAT SONG about the red rose. Just goes to show ya!!! |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Unbiased Listener Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:27 PM MTed And, Unbiased Listener, you should understand that, though a hundred may quietly approve, the one who vocally disapproves is the one who sets the tone for your venue. I have not commented on her ability or the club in question. But I take offence at YOUR patronising attitude towards me! I take it you have not heard her story telling? I have, many times! I have not and will not comment on her performance. I have supported her in the clubs we are talking about! Unless you are a regular member of the audience I do not see how you can comment on the 'tone' of the club. She is always listened to with no distractions and if some $%@t afterwards makes a private comment that does not mean the whole club should be condemned. As was said by Guest 4:43 (NOT me) the two clubs are long established & respected ones and would continue without my, Northerners or your attendance. They are bigger than individuals. Try keeping to the thread in future. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Unbiased Listener Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:40 PM Sorry to 'rant' but one thing I must add. One of the venues Northerner attends regularly puts on concerts featuring Vin Garbutt. Ever heard / seen him? Local lad - might tell a story or two - you never know !! |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:49 PM Look kid I don't beleive You Have IT!!
You are too self-conscious.
You are too intro-spective.
You are too in-secure.
For a performer (STORY-TELLER) the only feedback you require ... is from your audience.
changeMORPH
Do it over and over and over again Thirty times a week for 50 weeks a year for ten-years
You will develope the non-chalant hide of a rinosaurous, the witty-ironic teeth of an aligotor, and the guile of an unsavory politician.
Keep at it...you might get there.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: Mike Miller Date: 19 Jun 07 - 08:34 PM The gargoyle is correct in one regard. A performer without a show of supreme confidense is a performer, doomed to failure. I was asked by a young, talented student if I thought he could make it as a professional folksinger. I told him that I doubted it and, when he asked why, I said "Because you asked." You can't doubt yourself or your talent because if you do, the audience will doubt you, too. Mike |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 Jun 07 - 09:56 PM As Garg says - for being a performer You first need to fake an external show of confidence. From there, it's an easy step to fake an external show of sincerity... then you're made! :-) |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: Genie Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:34 PM I have some ideas on how to handle criticism but I'm afraid to post them here because someone might find fault with them. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:46 PM "I'm afraid to post them here because someone might find fault with them" That's just the whole point, Genie - "without a show of supreme confidence ... a performer, (is) doomed to failure" :-) |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: Mike Miller Date: 20 Jun 07 - 12:26 AM Will someone buy Foolestroupe a sense of humor. Genie was kidding. Well, wasn't she? |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jun 07 - 02:34 AM Unbiased Guest--chill. Nothing against your clubs. What I am telling you is that. as a performer, the jerk that dumps on you makes a strong impression --which is why venues should make an effort to protect their talent from their weirdo contingent-- And, Gargoyle notwithstanding, performers tend to be sensitive about certain things. At some point, people have been known to decide that one or another venue isn't really very much fun , and they walk. I've done it myself. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Unbiased Listener Date: 20 Jun 07 - 03:17 AM MTed You are so patronising.'What I am telling you is that. as a performer, the jerk that dumps on you makes a strong impression' After 30+ years of singing and performing I dont need you to tell me that. As to calling somebody a weirdo just because they dont like stories ........??? You sound more like the d..khead who is the cause of Northerners problems! Garg is right - develop a hard skin & be prepared to bite back from UNFAIR criticism. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 20 Jun 07 - 06:47 AM As I said... "You first need to fake an external show of confidence. From there, it's an easy step to fake an external show of sincerity..." You need to be fairly senitive to be able to work out HOW to do these.... :-) |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Northerner Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:37 AM Thank you for your thoughtful comments Jim. I've never seen Willie McPhee. I know Sheila Stewart though. I've seen her perform on a number of occasions. I'm not sure if she'd know my name but she would know my face as I was in her Conyach masterclass last year up in Edinburgh and also sang part of a song to her. She's a lady that I admire greatly. Yes, there is a danger that some stories can sound twee. That's why I deliberately avoid telling stories with imps, elves and fairies in them to an adult audience - though it never seemed to do J R R Tolkein any harm... My repertoire will become more adult in tone as I develop both my skills and my repertoire. In the meantime I am open to suggestions for finding/developing any stories for a themed evening or that will support another performer's work at one of the clubs. Storytellers quite often work in conjunction with both singers and musicians at events. I am not blaming the clubs; the club organisers are very supportive of me. But private inviduals can be very damaging to what happens in a club. I always loved folk tales alongside folk songs. I assumed that everybody else in a folk club would have that same connection. I assumed wrongly. It may well be time to finish this thread as I don't see that it will progress contructively much further. I have more workshops booked and will plod away at it. Thank you all for your comments. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: M.Ted Date: 20 Jun 07 - 12:09 PM A person is not a "weirdo" because they don't like stories, a person is a "weirdo" because they corner the storyteller after each performance and then run through the same abuse litany of complaints. I certainly don't mean to impugn anything against you, or the two clubs in question(which seem like wonderful places, really), or the Northern realms in general. My point is simply that there seems to be an individual who is undermining the clubs by harassing performers that he doesn't like. You may admonish the performer to be less sensitive, but that, to my mind, is patronizing. You are likely to lose GUEST, Northerner, who is determined to perform, but sees no need to suffer slings and arrows. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jun 07 - 01:43 PM Northerner, What is often forgotten is that traditional storytelling in the tradition was an adult activity and it really doesn't matter what the subject is. MacColl used to tell of the time he and Peggy were recording Scots Travelling women in their home in Beckenham and when they started on ghost stories, the women wouldn't to go the few yards to the toilet on their own, they had so scared themselves with their tales. We caught some of what must have been the last of the big storytellers here in Ireland and their stories ranged from a few minutes long to, in one case, two hours plus. These were Jack tales, ghost stories, wonder tales, trickster yarns, fairy stories and Fenian yarns. The thing we noticed with all the tellers is their complete lack of self-conciousness and the ability to suspend their own logic while the story lasted, no matter what the subject. None of them felt the need to put on funny voices or to use dynamics. This, I believe, is the secret of good storytelling. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Northerner Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:15 AM Thank you Jim. I now suspect that the person I mentioned orginally may have some current health issues, so I'll try to deal with this in a sensitive manner. I think a good part fo the problem is that modern audiences have forgotten part of the art of listening. So I have to find ways of making this easier for them. And I probably have a mixed audience - those who are struggling to listen to a story, and those who would prefer one that is more challenging. Your experiences with the Irish storytellers sounds wonderful. I saw a number of them last year up in Edinburgh and was most impressed. Next month I am going to the Beyond the Border Festival down in Wales - I am looking forward to it. I will be seeing some more international storytellers. I am working on another story. I've seen it performed a couple of times. It does have audience participation (which a folk club audience likes). There is quite a dark theme at the heart of it, so if I tell it in a way which shows its relevance to even modern issues, then it may have more appeal to an adult audience. The story is busy bubbling away inside me. The story does have a happy ending. Thank you for your understanding. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Wendy Date: 21 Jun 07 - 10:44 AM Northerner - Firstly, well done for standing up for your belief that storytelling can be a regular part of a folk club evening It Can be! but you're worrying me slightly. I've always found it best to pitch to the brightest. That way they don't feel patronised and anyone left behind might feel prompted to read up on a subject, or ask questions. Playing to those you feel may be less able or interested will alienate those who are bored by over simplification and if your audience is an adult one I'll bet the newcomers will realise things have been 'dummed down' for their benefit and still feel patronised. Even those you know to be less able or experienced may feel they are your peers and will appreciate bing treated as such. Of course, you can still fit in pieces of information that are unique to you by virtue of your experience in the field, but it is possible to do this as if you're just sharing with like-minded, informed people. To my mind Jim Carroll has made the most pertinent comments here as there is a world of difference between the traditional tellers (particularly the Irish) and todays generation of childrens entertainers. I guess the best at the job will be able to change character as well as repertoire to do both jobs. Good Luck in your endeavours. You're doing all the right things by attending courses and listening to other people's experiences. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Northerner Date: 22 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM Hi Wendy! No, I haven't dumbed down. I'm just trying to find ways of reaching those in the audience who have more difficulty with it. This could simply be by way of making sure that all my language is very evocative; making sure that I paint very clear pictures, for instance. And also by using clear gestures. And making sure that my telling is well-rehearsed and fluent. The big difficulty comes with adults who have forgotten how to listen, and how to use their imagination. How to spark their imagination, now that's a biggie. I don't want to come across as a children's entertainer. I am quite an enthusiastic, fun person, who has already gone down well at a school where I did some voluntary work. I brought in props - I was wearing a green and black wig plus a witchy hat for a Halloween telling last year and the children were thrilled. All the signs are that I will do very well indeed with a children's audience, where my sense of fun and my imagination will really be appreciated. Most paid work is with children so this is very encouraging. However, I am a very intelligent person, with a large area of life experience behind me; some sad and some inspiring. I've beaten a rare and serious illness, for instance. So I should eventually be able to add real depth to my tellings to an adult audience. But it probably takes time for this to come through in the stories. It may be that I have to look at the darker, more sensitive elements within stories when I tell them to an adult audience, and use them as well as the more fun elements that I have been showing more recently. The workshops that I attended this spring, led by Ruth Kirkpatrick may help in this regard, as we looked at existential dilemmas and mood maps. The story that I am looking at at the moment has quite a dark heart to it, and was obviously intended for an adult audience initially. Even if I am not completely happy with my interpretation of it at present it could be a good choice to take with me to a workshop for further work. I think it would also work well with the addition of either a bodhran or a tin whistle at some stage. Last night I simply sang a chorus song at one of the folk clubs. It got all the audience with me. I'm also looking into more residential workshops to help me progress. Application forms for some more came in the post this morning. What complicated applications!! They are for Emerson College. One of my friends has attended the 10/12 week course there and has recommended it. Thought I'd give some of them a try. Thank you for your interest and your comments. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: M.Ted Date: 22 Jun 07 - 01:36 PM Story telling really isn't about the story. Storytelling is about the relationship between the storyteller and the audience. The best story tellers never let on that they are telling a story, and they never let on that their audience is an audience-- |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,AW Date: 22 Jun 07 - 02:40 PM Hi Northerner. I'm just curious ... how do you decide that your audience has 'forgotten how to listen'? I don't remember anyone saying 'that was a great story, but I lost the thread/was bored/didn't like it/fell asleep because I've forgotten how to listen', so I'm wondering if there are other clues that you are picking up and I am missing? I've always sort of assumed that if I make a decent job of singing a song, (or reciting a poem or telling a story) and the piece has something interesting to say and is suitable for the venue, then the audience will find listening quite easy and enjoyable. If they don't, I tend to conclude that there is fault either with my ability or my choice of material (and on many occasions, in my case, both! But that's another story!) It's never occured to me to wonder whether the audience has been the problem, so advice you can give me for clues to watch for would be much appreciated. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 22 Jun 07 - 07:16 PM I believe that Guest A.W. and Mr. Ted have pretty well wrapped it up.
StoryTelling is a much finer "art" than being a singer/musician. The singer/musician is bounded by restraints (tune,lyrics, traditions, instrument or accompanyment.) The "Story Teller" has a much more than a recitation-type-repoirtore-recorded-Cosby-1965-vinyl.
Switch change find a common core....TellyTubbys are OUT (of the closet) with today's eight year olds You listen, you feel, and you sometimes even make figurative love with the live audience....you can even stop - explain "this ain't goin nowhere for you...and it ain't goin nowhere for me....so let us backtrack a little...you don't know....and its me fault for not telling you....remember Little-Sally-Nicey at the beginning....well she wern't so little,(smaller elephants have been seen in the circus) and she sure weren't nice....(once twenty pairs of cats (for those who can't count that's 40 were rescued tied tale to tale over the powerlines - like you throw wornout sneakers on the last day of school and her given name was Solomon....but after he/her butts was wipped 400 times, and lipstick whiped off her cheeks a thousand times....folks just began referring to Nicey as Sally. Now....hold onto that picture in your minds a few minutes we will return....and see what happens when she meets Pecos Bill's girlfriend." Look just tell stories - any audience you can find - steps of the courthouse, don't file taxes and ask for a audience with the IRS......there are even practice threads in the MUDCAT.
It is not the audience's fault there is an aerialist overhead, a juggler with fire a six yards away, and the line to the privy is moving slow.
Sincerely,
Worst case scenario - small venue - ask the managment to eject the offenders and take their cover out of your fee. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 22 Jun 07 - 08:28 PM Been washing, and brewing, and cooking, and pulling weeds.
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Northerner Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:31 AM Hi AW. People talk to me at a club after a story, and I get an idea of how well a story has been received. It takes a long time to develop as a storyteller so it is not surprising if I am not yet at master level!!! It also takes time to learn the art of listening to stories. And that shouldn't come as a surprise either. How many people could go to an opera or an evening of jazz, say, and really appreciate them when their experience of listening to them is limited/or of short duration? Knowledge of stories tends to increase with experience. I can listen to longer and more complex stories now than when I started four years ago. As one becomes more experienced one starts to recognise the different patterns in the stories that one is hearing. One starts to develop a sense of the larger picture of how stories relate to each other, and not just a sense of the invidual story. I do understand that someone who is unfamiliar with stories may find it difficult to understand the "rules" governing this artform initially. It's definitely a two-way process. If I feel confident that everyone is with me, then I can stride forward confidently, improving breadth and depth in my storytelling. If I feel someone is a little lost then I have to backtrack a little and work out how to handle that. Listening to stories is an active activity, not a passive one. Ideally when a story is being told a listener should be forming pictures in their imagination, visualizing it. It is harder than watching a soap-opera on television, say. Some storytellers are able to remember a story from just one hearing. And be able to retell it. Some of us need more time than that. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Northerner Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:36 AM Thanks Gargoye. You're basically talking about telling the story in a way that an audience can relate to. And drawing vivid pictures in people's minds. Yep, I can get that. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Northerner Date: 23 Jun 07 - 09:42 AM Thanks M.Ted. What you describe is basically how Sheila Stewart performs. The story is just an aside inserted into a conversation. I'm not sure that it is particularly easy to do - it's just that she makes it look easy. Certainly something to strive for. Of course we have largely lost the more informal settings that storytellers once had. Nowadays we have an MC who is anxiously watching the clock to check that we performers do not exceed our allotted time-slot. It's all a bit rigid. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,AW Date: 23 Jun 07 - 12:20 PM Yes, but has anyone ever actually said that they were trying to follow the story but got lost? Or that they wished you'd go a bit slower? or that the ideas were too complex? Or have they just said, in answer to 'did you enjoy it? or some such question 'I don't know - I wasn't listening'. There's a world of difference between being unable to do something and choosing not to do it. And I'm guessing that the secret to engaging people in the first category is exactly the opposite to that of engaging the people in the second group. I'm not trying to be mean here, but I think you are hoping for too much from the audience and worrying too much about the people who just 'sit back, smile and clap politely' (to quote your own post earlier in the thread). Just tell the stories to the people who look interested and the ones who look 'lost' might enjoy it despite themselves. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: Bert Date: 23 Jun 07 - 03:18 PM ...It also takes time to learn the art of listening to stories... Really it's up to the storyteller to hold the audience. You have to tell in such a way that they can't 'not listen'. Catch their attention and talk to THEM. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Northerner Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:21 AM Thank you both. I guess I still have a lot to learn. |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:39 AM On Saturday I went to a 'Hippies on the Hill' thingie (Festival would be a bit strong...) I haven't played for abouot 6 months, because of the Black Dog chewing at me, but I put Blondie (the 32 bass P/A) in the car, planning to just amuse myself while sitting at a friends stall - it also helps attract people. Well, it was raining - but they had a large marquee there, with a stage and and a band and a PA, and a MC... so in a fit of madness I wandered up and asked if they wanted any extra musos.,, To cut a long story short, I was on - a cod performance, totally unprepared... Some applause... well Me & Bobby Mcgee as a final went over well... :-) The MC afterwards gave me his card and told me to keep in touch for any future events he would be at... I defintely feel much better now... :-) Not bragging, but when you can pull off technical things like that without panic (i.e. being able to draw on your capabilities), you must have done the proper hard yards in the past to be able to pluck out 'the goods'... Just keep at it Northerner, till you get there... You must do the hard yards - one day you will wonder why you worried that you were no good... :-) |
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Subject: RE: How to handle criticism? From: GUEST,Northerner Date: 26 Jun 07 - 10:03 AM Thank you Foolestroope. I was just pondering that very same thing. It's all the hard graft that is on just now. It's great at the beginning when you have been able to rejoice that you simply got up there and did your piece without falling totally flat on your face. Harder at this stage when the progress feels slower and the club has got used to you and and yet you haven't got up as far yet as you're aiming for. I have a number of workshops/events booked that should push me up a bit further over the next months. Patience, patience, is what is required. I'm looking forward to my forthcoming storytelling festival. I've got brand-new wellies at the ready for it - yes, it's held in a field. Hurray for Beyond the Border!!! |
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