BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?

Subject: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:28 AM

"THE flow of Iraqis fleeing sectarian violence in their homeland has risen to more than four million - the largest refugee crisis in the Middle East since the creation of Israel in 1948."

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=906892007

Can someone please tell me why we invaded Iraq? This doesn't appear to be freedom and democracy at all. Who is left to vote in the next election? Obviously, the invasion and the surge have failed. Are we intent on destroying Iraq entirely? Perhaps teribus or Dickey or another Bush loyalist can explain this to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:26 AM

It was always about oil!....and the exercise of US military muscle.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:01 AM

14.3 million according to the voter registration process.

You could have saved yourself some trouble and ressurrected your previous thread on this topic. The two main salient facts still remain the same:

1) On average more Iraqi's died each day under the Ba'athist regime of the former Iraqi Head of State Saddam Hussein

2) More Iraqi's fled Iraq to escape from Saddam than the current situation.

Iraqi population in 1990 was some 18.6 million

Iraqi population as of July 2006 is around the 26,7 million mark.

Compared to UK in 1990 57.2 million, and UK in 2007 59.8 million.

Absolutely amazing what two wars, umpteen bombing campaigns, a decade of inhuman sanctions (that supposedly took the lives of 500,000 children under the age of five), arbitrary violence on the part of the US (which has supposedly killed 650,000 Iraqi civilians), unbridled sectarian mayhem, a civil insurrection and mass evacuation of the country can do for your population figures.

Let's see now in sixteen years the Iraqi population has incresed by 43%, whereas the population of the UK in seventeen years has increased by 4.5%. Truly astounding eh dianavan?

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:50 PM

Anyone can manipulate numbers, teribus. What is your source? Here's something a little more straightforward.

"The death rate before the invasion was a fairly normal 5.5 per thousand people per year. Since March 2003, that figure has averaged 13.2, the researchers found. More worrying, the death rate has risen every year since the invasion: this year reaching 19.8 per thousand people per year, a near-fourfold increase over pre-invasion levels."

13:32 11 October 2006
NewScientist.com news service
Debora MacKenzie

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM

More pertinent to this discussion is:

"Individual governorates inside Iraq are becoming overwhelmed by the needs of the displaced," said an UNHCR spokesperson, Jennifer Pagonis. "At least 10 out of 18 governorates have closed their borders, or are denying access to new arrivals."

As a result, many refugees are taking refuge in shanty towns, and almost half of them are not receiving the state-subsidised rations that enable most Iraqis to feed themselves."

and this:

"The number of Iraqis taking refuge in other countries continues to climb, with 1.4 million in Syria, 750,000 in Jordan, 80,000 in Egypt and 200,000 in the Gulf region."

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2640418.ece

Makes you wonder how many Iraqis will be able to vote in this newly founded democracy?

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:40 PM

No manipulation required dianavan:

Population in 1990 was 18.6 million, by July 2006 it was around the 26.7 million mark. Where did they all come from? You and your fellow travellers have been telling us for god knows how long that the population of Iraq has been massacred indiscriminately by the US and the "big bad west" for damn near two decades now. That those not killed by American bombers have been killed by UN sanctions. So how come their rate of population growth compared to the UK's is damn near 10:1.

How about this by way of explanation:

1) Nowhere remotely near the "projected" 500,000 children under five died due to UN sanctions.

2) Nowhere remotely near the "batch sampled" 650,000 Iraqi "civilians" were killed by US bombers

3) The 4.5 million Iraqi's who had fled the regime of Saddam Hussein returned.

Hell dianavan if you want manipulated figures there's the population of Iraq in 1990 (18.6 million) instantly raised to 24.25 million at a stroke.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:16 PM

Teribus...650000 Iraqis are said to have died "violent deaths", not killed by US bombing.
Manipulate the numbers all you like, but please try to get the context right.

Things must be getting really bad when Teribus stoops to these depths.

Do you really think that the Islamic Republic which lies at the end of this bloody road will be better for the people of Iraq....especially the women??...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:35 PM

teribus thinks this war is worth it because 4.5 million refugees returned to Iraq after the U.S. invasion, while 4 million fled during the same time period. For the sake of .5 million people we have spent how much money and sacrificed how many lives?

All this so that an Islamic republic could emerge.

Way to go, George!

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:06 PM

Akenaton, dianavan, the 500,000 and the 650,000 are myths, without a shred of basis in fact. You and those who think as you do lept onto those figures to support your completely outrageous contentions as to what is actually happening.

Take a very deep breath, the pair of you, 500,000 children under the age of five did not die because of UN sanctions. The Lancet report of the John Hopkins Study did not say that 650,000 Iraqi civilians died as a direct result of US intervention in Iraq. If you don't believe ME, then go back and read what was actually written in those reports that you and the likes of you so love to quote.

Give you a clue as to where this is leading. The Lancet Report stated that 650,000 MAY have died. Now lesson in English Comprehension - MAY HAVE does not equate in any way shape or form to 650,000 DID die - Got it!!!

The answer to your question dianavan still remains 14.3 million.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Gulliver
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:28 PM

There certainly won't be many Christians left there (I mention this because I saw a TV program on their fate). Over half of them have left the country and are living in precarious circumstances in surrounding countries, while those that remain are reduced to living in poverty and fear, without any future whatsoever in that God-forsaken country.

All the result of the war-mongers: Bush and Blair. When will they be brought to justice?

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:40 PM

How can ANY country ruled by warring Islamic extremist factions EVER be peaceful , settled ,and democratic ??? Islamic fundamentalism doesn"t do " votes " !! So forget the "voters", boys and girls------No chance !! Please stop trying to imagine that Arabs think about things like peace, fairness, justice, religious tolerance,humanity, etc , in the same way that we Westerners do-----because they DON"T !! Sadly, that"s always been the West"s downfall---These people ARE NOT LIKE US , so why, oh why, do we EXPECT them to be ???
( And yes !!--They feel the SAME WAY about US !! ).

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:00 PM

Because Bubblyrat, like it or not they HAVE TO live in our world. We generally as a whole, along with god knows how many Hindus, Bhudists and what ever other world religion you may care to name, have no wish to live under Sharia law. While WE, i.e. the rest of the world, are, generally tolerant of other peoples religions, THEY are NOT.

Give you a good old Navy saying Bubblyrat - Let 'em dig out - when it comes to me and mine I will kill every bastard that comes against me before I accept that load of shit.

Now let's hear how many here are willing to accept that every truth known to man is encapsulated in one single book that was written, how many hundred years ago? A book that is not open to interpretation but must be blindly obeyed on the advisement of largely self elected "Teachers".

Hell as like, my forebears challenged everything, advanced science, medicine and law, all for the betterment of mankind. The propagation of such ideals cannot be wrong, by all means challenge, question all you like, but realise this, the muslim religion does not cater or allow for this. Which is precisely why they are in the place they are, generally ignorant, susceptible the crudest mass manipulation that no-one in the west would swallow for one second.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:31 PM

It sounds like Catholicism to me..which actually I see a whole lot of similarities to.

I personally assume that we will be under some form of Islamic law in the future..hopefully it is somewhat benevolant and they won't behead us or make us renounce our faith, in which case I will have to revert to my martyrdom training I received at the hands of the nuns...I actually won't mind if I have to wear the burkka or pray on command...I would prefer not to get beheaded but it could come to that...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:13 AM

"Which is precisely why they are in the place they are, generally ignorant, susceptible the crudest mass manipulation that no-one in the west would swallow for one second."

Teribus - t.v. is a very crude form of mass manipulation. The manipulation of media and the underfunding of education all contribute to the ignorance of western society. It just looks different.

Don't kid yourself, the west has swallowed plenty under the Bush administration.

Since you're such a wiz with the figures, maybe you can tell me how many of those 14.3 million are under the age of five? How many Sunnis, Shias and Kurds?

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:36 AM

teribus - This report is from 2004 but is quite comprehensive. What I gleaned from it was that the population of Iraqi children under 15 is very high and that women outnumber the men. This means that Iraq has a highly dependent population because many of the men have been killed.

http://www.iq.undp.org/ILCS/PDF/Tabulation%20Report%20-%20Englilsh.pdf

There are many, many factors that contribute to population figures but that does not change the fact that, at present, the number of Iraqi refugees is more than four million. Combine that with the number displaced by the creation of Israel and it is no wonder the West is viewed with contempt. We have done nothing but cause the people of the Middle East more sorrow and hardship.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:58 AM

The figure 14.3 million comes from the voter registration process, so I would venture to guess that none of them were under the age of five.

I would agree that, "There are many, many factors that contribute to population figures but that does not change the fact that, at present," The population of Iraq is 43% hgher now than it was immediately prior to Desert Storm.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:33 AM

Now then Ake, why does it only occur to you that Iraq will become an Islamic republic under Iranian influence? There are a number of paths down which the future development of Iraq might lead, so I'll not play your silly little game.

Of course looking at it from the Iranian perspective such a dalliance might prove catastrophic to the 12 Old Gits who rule Iraq. Such involvement in Iraq might give quite a few fairly important minority groups within Iran ideas of self advancement in line with their Iraqi cousins, leading to the disintegration of the State of Iran as it is known today (Which, Ake, is the rump of what used to be the Persian Empire).

Within modern day Iran Ake, the main ethnic groups are:
- Persians (51%);
- Azeris (24%);
- Gilaki and Mazandarani (8%);
- Kurds (7%);
- Arabs (3%);
- Baluchi (2%);
- Lurs (2%);
- Turkmens (2%);
- Qashqai, Armenians, Persian Jews, Georgians, Assyrians, Circassians, Tats, Pashtuns and others (1%).

Guess which group has got the lion's share of the oil Ake? Psst! hint it ain't the Persians.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 05:08 AM

"It sounds like Catholicism to me..which actually I see a whole lot of similarities to." - Good point mg.

Now look back in the history of Europe - When did things really take off for the peoples of western europe? What event, or rather, series of events, prompted them to challenge and question the precepts of the day?

A little thing called - The Reformation accelerated by the knowledge that flooded out of Constantinople which the Roman Catholic Church could not stem or control.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:11 AM

Sitting on the fence T?.....thought you might :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:41 PM

Oh dear..I was never led to believe that the Reformation was a good thing ...(What, can't Catholics think for themselves..no..) mg

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:19 AM

Teribus--

The question is: what has happened to Iraq since the fall of Saddam? Do you have any idea who ruled Iraq from 1990 to 2003? Therefore your figures (1990 to July 2006) are, as usual, worthless.

Give us the total Iraq population figure in, say, May 2003, (after the fall of Saddam)--that is, after the "Coalition" "triumph". (Remember the "Coalition brought peace and tranquility (according to you).

Now compare the May 2003 figure to now. (In fact things have not improved since July 2006--so even the July 2006 figure leaves out the continuing tragedy since then.)

And give us your source, please.

Also, the population figures mask the true misery. Half the displacement since the fall of Saddam has been within Iraq itself. So these people still count as as part of the Iraqi population.   But of course that displacement (which still goes on) does not bother you--they are not real refugees, right? So they have no grounds to complain, right?

Yes, I am aware Saddam displaced many also. Show me one quote where I have defended Saddam on anything--or advocated his return. We are talking about the paradise on earth which the ""Coalition" brought.

Each month 40,000 Iraqis flee their homes because of the (continuing) war--source--International Rescue Committee. Yes, I am aware this is possibly not an objective source. You are welcome to provide your figure---with source, of course.

Thank you so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:22 AM

IRC figure is from 31 May 2007.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:20 PM

Look-It-Up's Questions:

1) "What has happened to Iraq since the fall of Saddam?"

Now let's see LIU, we've had quite a number of things happening:
- The CPA handed power over to an elected Interim Iraqi Government despite a number of folks here stating that the CPA would remain in power.

- The elected Interim Government drafted a constitution and put it to the vote. Another thing that lots here said would never happen.

- Referendum on the constitution

- First free open elections that have ever been held in Iraq to elect Iraq's first democratic government.

- Following the advice of the largely foreign dominated Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq and other "Jihadists", the Insurrection having failed to take on and defeat the infidel invaders turned on the Arab Shia population in an unsuccessful attempt to foment a civil war in the country. The Arab Sunni population who either actively or tacitly supported these people have now turned against them.

- In the northern Kurdish regions and in the Shia areas in the south the country is prospering.

- All previously agreed contracts and licences relating to oil production and exploration have all been honoured

- Iraq now no longer sponsors international terrorist organisations

- Iraq now no longer has any Chemical or biological weapons programme in existance, or in the planning stage.

- Iraq now no longer is developing missiles


2) "Do you have any idea who ruled Iraq from 1990 to 2003?"

Well let's see LIU, I believe that the Ba'athists ruled Iraq between those dates with one certain Saddam Hussein as President for life and official Head of State. Now exactly why this would rule out census figures and render them worthless, I haven't got the foggiest clue - I doubt very much if you do either LIU.

3) "Therefore your figures (1990 to July 2006) are, as usual, worthless."

Not a question. Clarification required - Why are these figures worthless? Have you looked up the population figures for Iraq in 1990 immediately prior to the start of Desert Storm? Have you looked up the population figures for Iraq today? (Closest census was in July 2006, daresay the next will be in July 2007)

4) "Give us the total Iraq population figure in, say, May 2003, (after the fall of Saddam)"

Don't know about May 2003, but is July 2003 close enough? I'm beginning to get the impression July is when they take the numbers, aren't you LIU? Population of Iraq in July 2003 was approximately 24,683,313

5) Question for you LIU - When did I say that the, "Coalition brought peace and tranquility" - Putting words in my mouth again LIU, I would have thought that you would have given that tactic up by now.

6) "Compare the May 2003 figure to now."

Population of Iraq in July 2003 was 24,683,313

Population of Iraq in July 2006 was 26,783,383 an increase of 8.5% over three years which averages out at 2.8%

Estimated population of Iraq now is 27,499,638 an increase of 2.6%

Sources Loads just Google "Population of Iraq" and stand back.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Big Phil
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:49 PM

Teribus
All your numbers tell me is that the Iraqis dont use any kind of contraception, probably trying to get the population back to pre Bush, Bliar days.

Over here in the UK the Killings, murders, suicide bombings and other ways of killing folk do not even make our TV News these days, unless the numbers are significant, 50 or 60 at a time.

We can not impose OUR ways on these people, they have different views to the west whether you like it or not.... as for democracy in Iraq, a bad joke I'm afraid..........

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM

A couple of observations for you Big Phil

1) Absolutely amazing what two wars, umpteen bombing campaigns, a decade of inhuman sanctions (that supposedly took the lives of 500,000 children under the age of five), arbitrary violence on the part of the US (which has supposedly killed 650,000 Iraqi civilians), unbridled sectarian mayhem, a civil insurrection and mass evacuation of the country can do for your population figures.

2) So how come their rate of population growth compared to the UK's is damn near 10:1.

How about this by way of explanation:

A) Nowhere remotely near the "projected" 500,000 children under five died due to UN sanctions.

B) Nowhere remotely near the "batch sampled" 650,000 Iraqi "civilians" were killed by US bombers

C) The 4.5 million Iraqi's who had fled the regime of Saddam Hussein returned.

Hell dianavan if you want manipulated figures there's the population of Iraq in 1990 (18.6 million) instantly raised to 24.25 million at a stroke. (Population of Iraq July 2003 after the fall of Saddam was 24,683,313). I'm not saying that that is so, too damn pat by half, but it serves as a reasonable indication.

As for the level they were trying to get back to Big Phil, it is a damn sight more likely that they were attempting to replace those lost earlier in the Iran/Iraq War and those killed by Saddam.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:54 PM

Gee, Teribus, I get the impression, that since I've been labeled "LIU"--Look It Up"--that you feel left out since I don't tell you to look up words. Well, if you really feel your grasp of the language is that weak, just tell me what part of your vocabulary needs assistance, and I'll do what I can to help you.

Your powers of logic do seem to need some attention. Obviously, since you were waxing lyrical about the increase of the Iraq population, you need to think about the time period. Unless, of course, you mean to suggest that under Saddam from 1990 through 2003--by far the majority of the period to which you refer, the Iraqis were doing just fine. That Saddam was a benevolent father figure, under whom the Iraqis had nothing to worry about but procreation--so the population soared. Somehow, I thought there were problems.

The question is whether the "triumph" in 2003 ushered in a period of improvement in the fortunes of Iraqis or not.

Do you believe there are now about 2 million Iraqis who have fled Iraq--and another 2 million who have been displaced within Iraq? Yes or no?

Do you believe that 40,000 Iraqis are forced to leave their homes every month? Yes or no?

If you do not accept these figures, what are your figures?

And your source for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 12:52 AM

It seems that teribus is assuming that the birth rate for Iraq has come to a halt as a result of the invasion. The population figures that are being thrown about are meaningless statistics without looking at the birthrate and other variables. The real issue is the refugee crisis. Seems that teribus would like to draw our attention away from the fact that the U.S. has all but closed their doors to Iraqi refugees.

"How many Iraqi refugees did the U.S. resettle in 2006? It settled 202."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/06/13/usint16173.htm

Teribus -

How many children under five do you think died due to UN sanctions?

How many Iraqi "civilians" do you think were killed by US bombers?

How many do you think have been displaced due to the invasion?

Add them up and give yourself a big pat on the back. After your finished, explain why the U.S. feels no obligation to provide refuge for Iraqis.

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:06 AM

"The war on Iraq alone has resulted in 4.4m refugees and Internally Displaced People.

'"The situation in Iraq continues to worsen, with more than 2 million Iraqis now believed to be displaced inside Iraq and another 2.2 million sheltering in neighbouring states," the UNHCR statement said.

According to government figures, some 1.4 million Iraqis are now in Syria, up to 750,000 in Jordan, 80,000 in Egypt and some 200,000 in the Gulf region. Syria alone receives a minimum of 30,000 Iraqis a month."

http://www.alertnet.org/db/blogs/29542/81574a54c4c60fabcbed9531a1b1c466.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Are there any voters left in Iraq?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:30 PM

"Are there any voters left in Iraq?"


                Yeah! The ones who are still alive are running around with purple fingers.