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opinions on the war in Iraq.

Dickey 03 Jul 07 - 12:18 AM
cookster 02 Jul 07 - 09:50 PM
GUEST,Bradman 28 Jun 07 - 09:40 PM
Stringsinger 25 Jun 07 - 11:34 AM
Charley Noble 25 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 08:29 PM
Joe Offer 24 Jun 07 - 07:22 PM
Don Firth 24 Jun 07 - 05:19 PM
akenaton 24 Jun 07 - 04:48 PM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 04:35 PM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 04:13 PM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,282RA 24 Jun 07 - 03:58 PM
akenaton 24 Jun 07 - 03:42 PM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 03:20 PM
Don Firth 24 Jun 07 - 03:14 PM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 02:43 PM
Ebbie 24 Jun 07 - 02:35 PM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 02:06 PM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 01:36 PM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,282RA 24 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 11:48 AM
Ebbie 24 Jun 07 - 11:46 AM
cookster 24 Jun 07 - 11:42 AM
cookster 23 Jun 07 - 08:27 PM
cookster 23 Jun 07 - 08:13 PM
cookster 23 Jun 07 - 08:12 PM
GUEST,Texas Guest 23 Jun 07 - 08:10 PM
cookster 23 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM
cookster 23 Jun 07 - 04:39 PM
GUEST,Texas Guest 23 Jun 07 - 04:36 PM
Ebbie 23 Jun 07 - 02:14 PM
cookster 23 Jun 07 - 10:35 AM
282RA 22 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM
282RA 22 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM
282RA 22 Jun 07 - 12:33 PM
Ebbie 22 Jun 07 - 12:09 PM
pirandello 21 Jun 07 - 05:15 PM
Rog Peek 21 Jun 07 - 04:30 PM
Dickey 21 Jun 07 - 01:38 PM
Teribus 21 Jun 07 - 08:07 AM
Little Hawk 20 Jun 07 - 09:23 AM
Peace 19 Jun 07 - 07:05 PM
Folkiedave 19 Jun 07 - 07:01 PM
GUEST,cookie 19 Jun 07 - 06:40 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 07 - 06:35 PM
Teribus 19 Jun 07 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,cookie 19 Jun 07 - 08:39 AM
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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Dickey
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 12:18 AM

"...On 29 June, American and Iraqi soldiers were again fighting side-by-side as soldiers from Charley Company 1-12 CAVâ€"led by Captain Clayton Combsâ€"and Iraqi soldiers from the 5th IA, closed in on a village on the outskirts of Baqubah. The village had the apparent misfortune of being located near a main roadâ€"about 3.5 miles from FOB Warhorseâ€"that al Qaeda liked to bomb. Al Qaeda had taken over the village. As Iraqi and American soldiers moved in, they came under light contact; but the bombs planted in the roads (and maybe in the houses) were the real threat.

The firefight progressed. American missiles were fired. The enemy might have been trying to bait Iraqi and American soldiers into ambush, but it did not work. The village was riddled with bombs, some of them large enough to destroy a tank. One by one, experts destroyed the bombs, leaving small and large craters in the unpaved roads.

The village was abandoned. All the people were gone. But where?...

...There were bodies of men, women and children. Al Qaeda slaughters families everywhere: as these graves were being unearthed, more bombs were found in London.

By the time I arrived, 5th IA had uncovered parts of six bodies. But from what I could see, they did not all appear to have been murdered at once. In one grave, there were exposed ribs and other bones, although there was still flesh on the bones.

Soldiers from 5th IA said al Qaeda had cut the heads off the children. Had al Qaeda murdered the children in front of their parents? Maybe it had been the other way around: maybe they had murdered the parents in front of the children. Maybe they had forced the father to dig the graves of his children.

Iraqi soldiers were barely talking. All had grim looks and everybody seemed to want to be a million miles away. Yet these Iraqi soldiers helped me do my job.

Later in the day, some of the soldiers from the unit I share a tent with, the C-52, told me that one of their Kit Carson scouts (comprised of some of our previous enemies who have turned on al Qaeda) had pointed out an al Qaeda who had cut off the heads of children. Soldiers from C-52 say that the Kit Carson scout freaked out and tried to hide when he spotted the man he identified as an al Qaeda operative. Just how (or if) the scout really knew the man had beheaded children was unknown to the soldiers of C-52, but they took the suspected al Qaeda to the police, who knew the man. C-52 soldiers told me the Iraqi police were inflamed, and that one policeman in particular was crazed with intent to kill the man who they said had the blood of Iraqi children on his hands. According to the story told to me on 30 June, it took almost 45 minutes for the C-52 soldiers to calm down the policeman who had drawn his pistol to execute the al Qaeda man. That same policeman nearly lost his mind when an American soldier then gave the al Qaeda man a drink of cold water.

While that was happening elsewhere in Baqubah, we stood around the stinking graves of people who had gotten a close-up view of al Qaeda-style justice. The villagers’ bodies were rotting in the heat before us.

The blade of the shovel struck more fingers, and the Iraqi soldiers stopped and pointed to the fingers so I could film them. But I had seen enough and pulled back into the palm groves.

Captain Baker gave an important interview on video. Captain Baker, who in Captain Combs’ words is “an excellent soldier,â€쳌 is from the Kurdish north, but Baker said he is Iraqi first, Kurdish second. He told me American Special Forces had trained him, and he shared some interesting details about the killing of Zarqawi which occurred back in 2006. Zarqawi had been the leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, until he was killed nearby by U.S. bombs.

Soldiers from the 5th IA continued with their task as Captain Combs and I departed, heading back to the M-1 tank.

Along the way we passed fresh craters. The bomb that made the water-filled crater above would easily have destroyed the Bradley in the photo.

LT Baxter, the tank commander, was concerned that the heat was getting to me, and checked my uniform for sweat, asking several times if I was okay. They always watch out for me. But I was okay from the heat; I can take the heat as well as our soldiers can. Still, I felt very sick, the kind of sick that no amount of cool water can fix. I put on the comms in the tank, then ripped them off and left off my helmet and held the jet hose of the air conditioner on my face as the tank rumbled back to base..."

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/bless-the-beasts-and-children.htm


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 09:50 PM

Thanks Bradman!


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: GUEST,Bradman
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 09:40 PM

Leave Cookster alone!


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:34 AM

War is propaganda. War is a racket. War is a vehicle for rich industrialists to make more money. War is a way for the human race to become extinct. War ultimately never solves any problem.

"One world must come out of world war two".....FDR

Yeah sure!


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM

Well, here's an opinion which might carry some weight. It's from an interview by columnist Bill Nemitz (Portland Sunday Telegram, June 24, 2007) with a World War II Marine veteran from the battle for Okinawa. Dave Astor, 87, knows a thing or two about loyalty, and about fulfilling your mission. And about keeping your reservations to yourself:

"I've never said this publicly," Ames said over coffee Thursday morning. "I was so proud of the Marines when they first dashed through Iraq. And then I said, well, be patient ... be patient." And now?

"And now my patience is gone. It's useless. It's come to the stage after four and a half years that we're worse off than we were then."

And so, on this day he'd planned to commemorate the victory in Okinawa (62 years ago), Astor found himself saying something altogether different about Iraq.

"I think we should just declare victory," he said. "And then get out of there."

And how would he define vicotry? The old Marine, who never thought he'd hear himself say this, didn't flinch.

"Easy," he replied. "You just get the hell out of there."

Charley Noble, who likes to learn from experience


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 08:29 PM

SIR YES SIR!!!


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 07:22 PM

I talked with both Cookster and 282RA, and I trust there will be no further animosity. Please carry on the with Iraq war opinions.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:19 PM

Brilliant rejoinder for an 11-year-old, cookster, but you might want to let up a bit on wasting band-space here on Mudcat with trivial threads. Serious issues are generally treated seriously, trivia draws trivial responses.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:48 PM

The Underworld!


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:35 PM

Akenton where are you from?


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:13 PM

Well the chances aren't on your side.Ask anyone on this thread they'll say I'm 11.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:07 PM

Akenaton, I am not Scottish.P.S. yeah I would and I am not the one acting like an ass.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 03:58 PM

I'm sorry but I don't care how old this poster claims to be. I don't believe anyone online with that garbage. Chances are he is an adult using this as a shield to act like an ass. No 11 year old would hang out at a place like this. Would you?


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 03:42 PM

I'm starting to warm to this pup. Are you Scottish by any chance?


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 03:20 PM

cronological age. What's your mental age, 2?


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 03:14 PM

11? Mental age or chronological age?


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 02:43 PM

thank you Ebbie.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 02:35 PM

Guest/282RA, Cookster is/was Guest Matt C; he started this thread and is 11 years old. He is on summer break from school.

Cookster, unless you are a little more forthcoming about yourself, this kind of thing is going to keep on happening.

Keep in mind that the Mudcat Cafe is first and foremost a music site. The BS section (below the line) is frequented by many posters and we all have many opinions. From long usage, we are in the habit of taking for granted that we are adults, with all that entails. We take for granted that we all have about the same understanding of protocols, the same way of using words and phrases, in the expectation that we all understand their implications.

If you remind us of your age and newbie status I think we'll be more patient.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 02:06 PM

As said at my school,"Label jars not people."So don't call me a post whore


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM

282, who are you? Are you an editor?


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 01:36 PM

hey 282RA Don't ever call me a whore again! GOT IT!


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 01:34 PM

Hey buddy, I started this thread.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM

Cookster,

Please try and understand that this thread is about the Iraq war. If it's uninteresting to you then please get off the thread.

You're a post whore and I absolutely cannot tolerate post whores. I'm asking you nicely to please stop. I hate logging in to read 20 consecutive one-word responses. In many forums, that would get you banned.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:48 AM

sorry.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:46 AM

Watch your tongue, Cookster- you ain't the only cookie on the shelf.

:)


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 11:42 AM

hello


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:27 PM

seriously.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:13 PM

Iraq dumbass.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:12 PM

THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT!!!!


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 08:10 PM

Well, cookster, let's see,...in the last six years I've been to cities and towns all over Texas, as well as different places in Colorado, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, Kentucky and Iowa - I also set foot in one foreign (?) country,
Canada. That's about where I've been for the last six years and I'd have to say that - I ain't seen no war! So...


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM

Hey Texas, where have you been the past six years?


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:39 PM

they say,"We should not be involved with Iraq."


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 04:36 PM

War? What war?


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 02:14 PM

Hi, Cookster. Do you have an opinion on the war in Iraq? What do they say about it in your neck of the woods?


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: cookster
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 10:35 AM

hi


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: 282RA
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM

>>I am just tired of busting my butt over here and coming home every night and turning on the TV (Armed Forces Network) and hearing how we are failing miserably," he told me in an e-mail.<<

Well, then, Mr. Funk, here's my suggestion of how to get the last word against the terrorist-sympathetic newsmedia:

Shut the fuck up and win the fucking the war!!!!!!

Until that happens, you don't have a last word to give on the subject.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: 282RA
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

Before Teribus demands that proof that Bush has no interest in pursuing or capturing bin Laden (because he's too inept), here we go:


http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/101504W.shtml

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1024.htm

http://mediamatters.org/items/200410140007


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: 282RA
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:33 PM

>>Well the attacks of the 11th of September, 2001, certainly served as a distraction Little Hawk, or are you now firmly of the belief that they were perpetrated by the US administration of the day? The latter is a bit hard to swallow seeing as how Osama did actually come clean and admit responsibility for authorising the planning, training, funding and execution of those attacks.<<

Then why isn't Bush looking for him?

[Insert lengthy typical Teribus response here complete with 50 quotations of stuff that has nothing to do with anything]

No, he isn't. He already stated he doesn't even think about him anymore. Surely you can find a link of that little speech. The man who "did actually come clean and admit responsibility for authorising the planning, training, funding and execution of those attacks" isn't even being looked for by Bush--who, by his own admission, doesn't even think about him.

Kind of makes you wonder we ever went into the Middle East being as we didn't really care about the man that "did actually come clean and admit responsibility for authorising the planning, training, funding and execution of those attacks" doesn't it?


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 12:09 PM

This is an opinion piece in the Juneau, Alaska daily newspaper today. Derrick Snyder is a chef who sometimes writes for the paper.

My turn: Admitting defeat is hard for George

By Derrick Snyder

"Hillary, get out here a minute, would you?"
"OK, OK. Jeez, George, what time is - holy heck! What is that?"
"I think it's a bear."
"George, it's got a hold of your leg! How did this happen?"
"Well, I got up because I feared something was threatening our camping supplies. I thought it was just a porcupine. So, I gave it a little shock and awe - a good hard kick - figured 'Mission Accomplished' and turned to head back to the tent. Then all hell broke loose."
"Why didn't you ask for more help?"
"I was only planning on a limited engagement, but the durn thing grabbed hold of my boot. But I've got a plan. If you'll just - "
"George, I don't know how to say this, but I don't see your boot. It looks like the bear is up past your knee."
"There have been some setbacks. Truth be told, it's been downhill ever since I first kicked the thing. But it's getting tired of chewing. I can tell. Just look at those beady, quitter's eyes!"
"George, I don't know which eyes you're talking about. The eyes I see look bloodshot and mean. That's a half-ton brownie on your leg, taking its sweet time. I wish we had a gun. Maybe I can pry its jaws long enough to get your leg out."
"Don't you dare, Hillary! I'm winning!"
"I'm not sure winning or losing even applies to bears. Now, hold still while I jam this stick into its mouth. Once we get your foot out, I'll carry you home and fix you up."
"If we leave without killing it, the bear's going to follow us home. It's better to fight it here in the woods where it won't mess up our yard."
"Let's discuss that later."
"But I've got a plan! You see how my leg is wedged in the bear's mouth?"
"Yeah, George. There's not a lot else that has my attention right now."
"OK, good. If you look close, you'll notice its mouth is stretched just about as wide as it can go. Now, follow along. Further up by my hips, my leg is a little bigger around than it is down by my knee. So what I'm going to do is surge forward and jam the rest of my leg into the bear's mouth, choking it to death."
"That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. How about a better plan: I've got a piece of rope here. We can tie you a tourniquet while we figure this out."
"No! That would cut off the blood supply! Blood's as good as money."
"But your blood is running onto the ground."
"Hillary, that's what happens when you battle bears. If you really want to help, how about you drive back home and get me some bear bells, some bear spray, a whistle and, oh, perhaps a gun."
"For Pete's sake, George! You're not thinking straight. We don't have time for all that."
"Mistakes have been made. I've already admitted that. But we are where we are, and we need to prosecute this thing to the finish."
"I don't buy that. I think there's so much blood on the ground that, if we stay here, we're liable to attract even more bears."
"Really, Hillary! Your yellow streak is showing. You're starting to make me regret I woke you up in the first place. If you aren't going to support me, then maybe I should go it alone."
- Snap! -
"Darn it, Hillary! You pried my leg free!"
"I'm sorry, George, but I'm getting you to the hospital, whether you like it or not."
"I don't like it. Chaos will ensue! This bear battle is not over! And, Hillary - "
"Yes?"
"Next time we go camping together, I'm leaving you at home!"


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: pirandello
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 05:15 PM

Regardless of what Funk says about the media the fact remains that Bush and Co created the biggest foreign policy screw-up in American history and don't have the vaguest clue as to how to fix things; the only thing they can think of is 'stay the course' and the wasting of billions of dollars and thousands of lives in a conflict which cannot be 'won'.
Four years on and Rumsfeld's 'surgical strike' and 'in and out in six weeks' is looking fairly preposterous.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Rog Peek
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 04:30 PM

When they renamed 'The Ministry of War' and called it The Minstry of Defence', I understand 'Radiation' became 'Moonbeams'.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Dickey
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 01:38 PM

Carlson: Shift news to successes in Iraq, soldier urges
JOHN CARLSON'S IOWA May 23, 2007

..."We're treading water," the Ames man told the people closest to him. "We continue to kick butt on missions and take care of each other, even though we know the American public and government DOES NOT stand behind us.

Ohhhh, they all say they support us, but how can you support me (the soldier) if you don't support my mission or my objectives. We watch the news over here. Every time we turn it on we see the American public and Hollywood conducting protests and rallies against our 'illegal occupation' of Iraq."

His greatest frustration? The performance of the people who deliver the news to the American people.

I'll let him say it, in his own words, in the letter, which found its way to me:

"Hello media, do you know you indirectly kill American soldiers every day? You inspire and report the enemy's objective every day. You are the enemy's greatest weapon. The enemy cannot beat us on the battlefield so all he does is try to wreak enough havoc and have you report it every day. With you and the enemy using each other, you continually break the will of the American public and American government.

"We go out daily and bust and kill the enemy, uncover and destroy huge weapons caches and continue to establish infrastructure. So daily we put a whoopin on the enemy, but all the enemy has to do is turn on the TV and get re-inspired. He gets to see his daily roadside bomb, truck bomb, suicide bomber or mortar attack. He doesn't see any accomplishments of the U.S. military (FOX, you're not exempt, you suck also).

"Let's give you an example. A couple of days ago we conducted an air assault. We lifted troops into an area for an operation. The operation went well and our ground troops killed (insurgents) and took several prisoners, freed a few hostages and uncovered a weapons cache containing munitions and chemicals that were going to be used in improvised bombs.

"The next morning I woke up and turned on AFN (Armed Forces Network) and watched the nightly news (NBC). Nothing, none of that reported. But the daily car bomb report was reported, and the file footage was not even from the event. There was a car bomb in the Sadr City area and your news report showed old car bomb footage from another part of town from some other time.

"So we really set the enemy back that night but all the enemy had to do was turn on the news and be reassured that the enemy's agenda (objective) was still going to be fed to the American public.

"We, the soldiers, keep breaking the back of the enemy. You, the media, keep rejuvenating the enemy.

"How hard would it be to contact the PAO (public affairs officer) of the 1st CAV, 36th CAB, 25th ID or the Marines and ask what did you guys accomplish today - good and bad? How about some insurgent blooper videos? Now that would be something to show on the evening news.

"Media, we know you hate the George Bush administration, but report both sides, not just your one-sided agenda. You have got to realize how you are continually motivating every extremist, jihadist and terrorist to continue their resolve to kill American soldiers."

It's a punch in the nose to the news media from Funk, 39, a full-time employee of the Iowa National Guard.

Why did he write it?

"I am just tired of busting my butt over here and coming home every night and turning on the TV (Armed Forces Network) and hearing how we are failing miserably," he told me in an e-mail.

You may agree with what Funk has to say. You may not.

Many in my business certainly won't. But Funk is a soldier, fighting a war, who has earned the right to be heard.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070523/OPINIon01/705230371


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 08:07 AM

"You'll never get Osama. He's a former CIA operative, used to kill Russians in Afghanistan, later used as a gigantic red herring to distract the American public and get them to back 2 wars of aggression." - Little Hawk.

OK, a little trip to reality:

"...used to kill Russians in Afghanistan," - It is highly likely that Osama bin Laden has never killed a Russian in his life. Throughout the entire "Mujahadeen experience" and the "war against the Soviets", Osama Bin Laden was located in Peshwar, in Pakistan setting up training camps. During a week, in April 1987, 50 Islamic fighters, mostly Arab volunteers, successfully defended one the compounds set up by Osama bin Laden, at Jaji, near the Pakistani border, against 200 Soviet troops. Bin Laden used this episode to portray himself as a victorious military leader, especially in the Arab press. In this way, he was able to attract many more followers to his cause. But there has never been any evidence to suggest that he was there at the time.

"He's a former CIA operative," - A couple of schools of thought on this, one by a British Labour Politician with an axe to grind and the second mutually supported by two authoratative sources who knew Osama bin Laden well and who had interviewed him:

"By 1984, with Azzam, bin Laden had established a Saudi Arabian funded organization named Maktab al-Khadamat (MAK, Office of Order in English), which funneled money, arms and Muslim fighters from around the Arabic world into the Afghan war. Through al-Khadamat, bin Laden's inherited family fortune paid for air tickets and accommodation, dealt with paperwork with Pakistani authorities and provided other such services for the jihad fighters. In running al-Khadamat, bin Laden set up a network of couriers traveling between Afghanistan and Peshawar, which continued to remain active after 2001, according to Yusufzai.

Robin Cook, former leader of the British House of Commons and Foreign Secretary from 1997-2001, wrote in The Guardian on Friday, July 8, 2005,

**Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.**

However, Peter Bergen, a CNN journalist and adjunct professor who is known for conducting the first television interview with Osama bin Laden in 1997, rejected Cook's notion, stating on August 15, 2006, the following:

**..that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden—is simply a folk myth. There's no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn't have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn't have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently. The real story here is the CIA didn't really have a clue about who this guy was until 1996 when they set up a unit to really start tracking him.**

Bergen quotes Pakistani Brigadier Mohammad Yousaf, who ran ISI's Afghan operation between 1983 and 1987:

**It was always galling to the Americans, and I can understand their point of view, that although they paid the piper they could not call the tune. The CIA supported the mujahideen by spending the taxpayers' money, billions of dollars of it over the years, on buying arms, ammunition, and equipment. It was their secret arms procurement branch that was kept busy. It was, however, a cardinal rule of Pakistan's policy that no Americans ever become involved with the distribution of funds or arms once they arrived in the country. No Americans ever trained or had direct contact with the mujahideen, and no American official ever went inside Afghanistan.**

"...later used as a gigantic red herring to distract the American public and get them to back 2 wars of aggression."

Well the attacks of the 11th of September, 2001, certainly served as a distraction Little Hawk, or are you now firmly of the belief that they were perpetrated by the US administration of the day? The latter is a bit hard to swallow seeing as how Osama did actually come clean and admit responsibility for authorising the planning, training, funding and execution of those attacks.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 09:23 AM

You'll never get Osama. He's a former CIA operative, used to kill Russians in Afghanistan, later used as a gigantic red herring to distract the American public and get them to back 2 wars of aggression. He's the excuse which will never see the light of day.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:05 PM

"I wonder when we will get Osama Bin Laden."

I think he's already 'got'. But there would be no point for either side to say he's dead. The 'spectre' of his being alive is useful to the various terrorist organizations, and it's worth lots for Bush to have a boogy man to mention from time to time. Even if he were to be caught tomorrow, in whose interest would it be for there to be a trial?


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 07:01 PM

http://costofwar.com/ says a lot.

Well Tony Blair told the British parliament that there were WMD's which could be activated in "45 minutes" and were a threat to the Uk - it was a load of round spherical objects.

There is a neat report the Independent here

The story of Saddam Hussein trying to buy uranium turned out to be based on crudely forged documents.

The charge that Iraq and Al Queda were linked the so-called "dodgy dossier" turned out to be based on a plagiarised Ph.D.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: GUEST,cookie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:40 PM

I wonder when we will get Osama Bin Laden.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:35 PM

La, la, la... (whistling a merry tune) Every side always has its enthusiastic backers, "T". It's nice to know that you are there for Bush and Blair. (I'm not there for Saddam, so don't suggest I am.) And no, of course they will not be tried. Such people never are unless they get invaded and conquered by someone more powerful, lose a major war in the process, and get put on trial by the winners of that war.

There's no way that can happen at present to the leaders of America and the UK. They are not faced by any foreign power capable of conquering them.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 06:08 PM

"They lied about WMDs. They lied about why they went in there. And they have done irreparable damage to a country that was no threat at all to the USA. They (Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Condi Rice, Colin Powell, and Tony Blair and the other key players) should all be arrested and put on trial for mass murder, because they are war criminals. Saddam was hanged." - Little Hawk

1) "They lied about WMDs." - Who did? The UN? The UNSCOM Inspectors? Just read their Report.

2) "They lied about why they went in there." - No they most certainly did not.

3) "And they have done irreparable damage to a country that was no threat at all to the USA." - Joint House Security Committee and the combined threat assessments/evaluations of all of the United States of America's Intelligence Services were certainly not of that opinion and they advised the President accordingly.

4) "They (Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Condi Rice, Colin Powell, and Tony Blair and the other key players) should all be arrested and put on trial for mass murder, because they are war criminals." - No they are not, so that will not happen

5) "Saddam was hanged." - Quite rightly so, large numbers of people in Iraq had to see proof positive that there was absolutely no way that this guy was going to make a come-back.


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Subject: RE: opinions on the war in Iraq.
From: GUEST,cookie
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 08:39 AM

By the way akenaton I don't play many sports,and I already have a girlfriend.


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