young folk tradition undermining folk

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Jim Lad
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 12:04 PM

We seem to fear/envy the success of others in folk circles. We want folk music to be more popular and yet when some group manages to bring them to the forefront, we cringe at the very mention of their names.
Simple fact; No act, no matter how good or bad & no publicity, no matter how good or bad is going to do anything but help me find gigs.

How many times have we played to rows of envious Folkies at folk clubs knowing that many of them would like nothing more than to see you die on the spot so that they could take your place.

So, formal training for folk musicians? No. I don't think it's of any real value but what the heck. Somebody came up with it and I take that as a positive move on our behalf.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Uncle Boko
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 12:31 PM

The trouble is that in the UK, success is scorned by envious masses.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 01:17 PM

Oh, to be scorned and envied... I'd gladly give away 30 years of my age for such a thing. I don't quite agree, UB; I think there is a minority that is scornful and envious, but they are very vocal, that's all.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: breezy
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 02:58 PM

Did I miss the word 'entertainment' somewhere?

What the hell, it keeps em off the streets and there arnt enough jobs around so 'keep em in school for longer' has long been our govt's credo

It's contemporary creativity with appeal to intellect through music with originalty that I am looking for.

Has Jez Lowe rec'd his honorary degree yet? Bogle and a few others.

In the end if one cannot communicate with an audience then it would only be an academic exercise

And , Well Done Jim C Lad for tackling a George Papavgeris song, hope its working, great source singer, in many ways.

Has Vin G got one

Does Martyn W -R's summer school in France qualify for any credits, if not . why not?

Folk music and song should be a pleasurable social pastime

I say Di E, where can I read the syllabub seeing as i cant be bothered to trawl


next St Albans song gig worth bothering about will be on Sunday 15th Julay - its the way they talk- at the Rose and Crown , - though word is that Fleggy will be stepping -into the breach - on the 2nd sunday,

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 03:01 PM

Cyrano: Give me enemies!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 04:33 PM

yes I admit it - I'm an envious mass and I SCORN all you successful buggers.

Consider yourself scorned....!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:11 PM

Just one person's opinion, but in the teeth of the established opinion here our club is still thriving. I did see Kate Rusby there more than once (a few years ago admittedly) and she seemed to have a great love for the songs she was singing. Well, as much as you'd expect given that she spent her childhood building sandcastles on Fleetwood beach whilst her father ran the sound desk, and sang in the Young Performers there (as indeed did Tim Van Eyken - though not sandcastles, as far as I know). I don't know how many graduates of Newcastle we've had: a few I suspect including the Witches more than once. But half? Only one admitted to me doing the degree, and she came up through the Skipton club worshipping at the feet of Maggie Boyle (as should we all). We've just had Uiscedwr, with one graduate (and another attendee) of the Northern Music College. It didn't seem to have hurt their enthusiasm for the music. If some performers ask too much, we don't see them (no, I've no idea what the going rate is). Plenty more to fit in.

If this seems a bit wandering, it just seemed to me that opinions are being expressed as if they were proven facts rather than suppositions, and a bit of contrary evidence was needed. I don't understand how three years honing your craft, and learning a bit in the process (well, being taught a bit anyway) can do anything but good. If some can convert that into a negative, it seems to say more about their outlook on life in general than about the value of the course. So one of students is a prat, it is still better that he be a competent musician than an incompetent one.

I don't care that performer X is doing wonders whilst steering clear of traditional outlets: good luck to him. There was a chasm between the traditional folkies and the protest songwriters when I was but a lad. Then there was the folk "entertainers", who used the clubs as a route into professional comedy (or not). There have always been those who flirted with popular music as a means of refreshing the roots/waking up the fuddy-duddies/doing their own thing, man. Chose your own interpretation, but folk music has always been a broad church. There is much variety around now, but it doesn't mean The End Of The Known World.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 05:25 PM

Points of information:

(1) The B Mus course is four years.
(2) OK, one and a half Witches as one had to give up half way through.
(3) (For George): yes you get an HND if you get to intermediate then leave.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Jun 07 - 06:58 PM

Thanks Diane. It's worth considering...

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 05:58 AM

I would have thought that if the students on the degree course had their fingers on the pulse of Folk and Traditional music (such as it is), some of them might have contributed to this thread by now.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 06:06 AM

You really think that a bunch of middle-aged (and I'm being generous here) folkies squabbling amongst themselves about things like the future of folk clubs is having "their finger on the pulse"?

The younger generation have better things to do than sit around navel-gazing: they're too busy dancing. Performing. Going to festivals. Playing in sessions. Having a life.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 06:55 AM

Ruth, you are not middle-aged. No matter how generous you are. While ever you can get a yearn for a cow-man - albeit unfulfilled you are fine.

I am middle-aged. I have never had a yearn for a cow-man.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 07:07 AM

What, you mean they don't have an opinion to share?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 07:14 AM

I often advise people - almost invariably to no avail - to read threads before diving in.

This one was started by an 18 year-old. So yes at least one of them has an opinion and good for them.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 07:32 AM

'The younger generation have better things to do than sit around navel-gazing: they're too busy dancing. Performing. Going to festivals. Playing in sessions. Having a life.'

And we are to entrust our wonderful tradition to this vacuous gang of hedonists......I think not! As Jean-Paul Sartre said, all art is born out of suffering.

Mind you, we warned him about listening to the Mike Harding Show.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 08:12 AM

Life has taught me that in every group of people there is going to be at least one self-opinionated, "I'm god's gift" gobshite and the students at Newcastle are no exception. The majority, however, are just like students anywhere with the exception that they are all extremely gifted in their chosen field. If the course can harness that talent, encourage it and point it in the right direction then surely it has succeeded in helping to perpetuate the tradition and given these young people a fighting chance to survive the pitfalls of the world in which they have chosen to make their living. As for them "undermining the folk tradition," surely common sense would tell you that they're not going to set out to destroy the thing that they love. My experience of the "young folk tradition" has been very positive and it's obvious that they are beginning to ruffle a few feathers amongst those who perhaps perceive some sort of threat. Good luck to them all,I say, it's a hard road they've chosen and some encouragement wouldn't go amiss to help them on their way.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 08:44 AM

Great debate! I go with George & Mike from Northumberland - allow the kids their mistakes, be entertained, as Old Folks always have been, by their mistakes and their pretentiousness*. While you're doing that, just guide them along.
There's a lot of crusty old opinion in this thread - understandable from those of us who know The Proper Way to Folk Sing maybe - but you have to take notice of the way music and media are changing, really you do.
In nature, things either evolve and grow or we only know them from ancient fossils. If you want something of "your" music to live on, you have to accept that.

*"leave home now while you still know EVERYthing"

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:00 AM

"What, you mean they don't have an opinion to share?"

I'm sure they would - if they were even aware of the discussion. For the bright young things of folk, Mudcat is hardly in the vanguard of progressive thought, so they largely ignore its existence.

Fair play to them.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Grab
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:14 AM

Re the money, it depends on what's a living wage for the people involved.

Sure, £1200 is a lot of money. But let's say for the sake of argument that the group had five people in it - now we're talking £240 per person. Being realistic, they're likely to be averaging 3 gigs a week at best. That equates to £37K a year, out of which they also have to find petrol money, hire someone to run sound and lighting, and provide and maintain their own instruments, PA and lighting rig (or hire them). If they're doing much better than £30K after all that, I'd be surprised. Now that's a decent wage, but it's not exactly exceptional as far as skilled, trained work goes - compare it to what someone with a degree in engineering could get, say, and it's not so hot. It'll pay your pension and let you get a mortgage on a cheapish house outside of the southeast (assuming your partner works too), but it'll damn sure not put you in a mansion with hot and cold running groupies. :-/

Now do the same sums for £400 for 3 people. £130 a gig per person, 3 gigs per week per year, equals £20K a year. Subtract petrol and other expenses, and they won't be on more than £15K. That's OK for young people living in a bedsit or a room in a shared house, but it wouldn't pay anyone's mortgage or leave anything for savings.

Graham.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: EuGene
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:19 AM

Say, Sparticus, isn't "ruffling a few feathers" a prime component of the folk music scene . . . note that I said scene, not tradition, as the only tradition that , historically, I have ever seen is the free form, lack of tradition, nature of folk music. That's what sets folk music off from most other musical styles -- folk is painted with the broadest brush of all genres. Eu

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Captain Colin.
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM

Grab- sounds pretty good to me for part-time work!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 09:49 AM

part-time work

PART-TIME work?
John Kirkpatrick write a song about that after he kept being asked what he did in the daytime.

One of the top touring bands doing 3 to 4 gigs a week fairly constantly, involving up to 10 hours driving there and back told me that when fuel, food, accommodation, strings and stuff was accounted for, they were each on slightly above the national minimum wage.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Grimmy
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:04 AM

part-time work

Dick Gaughan used to say he was a long-distance driver who sang during his breaks.

He also once revealed how much he earned during a typical year - it was not a lot, believe me.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Captain Colin.
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:05 AM

Grab's calculations were based on 3 gigs a week. Travelling times will obviously vary and will average out at far less than 10 hours per gig. Many people expend long hours in travelling to work, but don't class it as hours worked. A musician doing 3 gigs as week to fairly small audiences is being equated to a trained engineer working full time (and probably under stress and carrying a lot of responsibilty too)- it's just not a balanced comparison, sorry!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Captain Colin
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:14 AM

ps- I'm not, and never have been, an engineer!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:18 AM

Meant to type "John Kirkpatrick WROTE . . . "

Indeed DG does not earn a massive amount and he's on the go constantly (a never-ending tour that really doesn't) and reckons to do at least 3 gigs a week. This, of course, involves taking the chance that gigs may well slip by the wayside because of non-return of contracts, venues suddently collapsing or disappearing, organisers absconding with the advance sales money . . . that sort of thing.

A recent European festival booking, accepted in an attempt to recoup on a financially disastrous 'tour' the previous year during which a selection of the above occurred, ended with yet another shortfall.

Yet the performer has to maintain a home which is rarely seen, vehicle, PA and instruments out of meagre fees which are, as likely as not, not even forthcoming.

What do you do in the daytime indeed. As likely as not, a McJob to meet the next bill.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Captain Colin.
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:29 AM

Well, if there's time for a daytime McJob that bears out my point that 3 gigs a week is part-time employment! My tough old heart is somehow failing to bleed.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:31 AM

"non-return of contracts,"

Perhaps not every club is up to par in administrative matters and if the artist(s) is out on tour he/she/they may not receive the contract in time anyway.

"venues suddenly collapsing or disappearing"

Yes that does happen from time to time

"organizers absconding with the advance sales money"

I hope that is a rare event - it has certainly never happened anywhere that I have had any dealings with.

But yes making a living out of our music is far from easy.

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:33 AM

yeh mugs game...personally I'd knock off the degree course and get a karaoke machine, buy a Bernard Manning jokebook and go into showbusiness....if you're that way inclined.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:46 AM

Captain Colin's heart is failing to bleed because he clearly has no clue what it's like out there. The entire point is that there isn't time for a McJob because a musician needs to be devoting time offstage to rehearsal, research, learning and arranging. But it sometimes just has to be done in order to cover the nitty-gritty of survival.

In the example I gave above of accepting a festival booking (at almost two day's driving distance) to recoup losses on the previous year's tour, I omitted to mention that the minimum three extra gigs requested to make the tour viable just did not materialise. And yet one of the venues decided to publicise the artist's alleged 'unreliability' despite the fact that they hadn't bothered to return the contract. Not only is this lack of consideration financially disastrous, it also does sometimes irreparable damage to an artist's reputation.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Captain Colin.
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 10:54 AM

Diane- get real!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:01 AM

I am relating examples of the all too real dilemmas facing many musicians every day, as told to me. They are very real.

Captain Colin appears to be taking the example of some mythical band that gets gigs three times a week just up the road and has, additionally, an umlimited pool of private income. This is not real. Not even the most unrealistic and over-optimistic music student wears such violently pink glasses.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:10 AM

A ceilidh band I know do not charge for playing music - they would probably be doing that anyway. They charge for getting there and back and setting up and taking down their gear. The music comes free.

I was at a festival this weekend and watched the musicians arrive - since my stall was at the "stage door".

I can tell you the campers with their posh mobile homes and those in tents with posh cars drove better vehicles than any of the musicians. I would guess the campers were engineers.

I will remind you of the joke where a number of people arrive at the gates of heaven - when the poorest arrives instead of the usual questions St. Peter asks the person - what instrument did you play?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:13 AM

"rehearsal, research, learning and arranging."

All of the above, indeed. Classical musicians like to practice for several hours per day, and even us traditional musicians would love to do that if we had time. Research can involve hours on the internet or in public libraries, or with our own collection of books and CDs. Learning and arranging (or writing) new material has to be allocated time additional to instrumental practice. Teaching and workshops are a significant proportion of earnings for many of us, and they take a lot of preparation too.

Travel time and expenses are of a different order of magnitude to most commuters that I know. And we have days of enforced idleness away from hearth and family because it's not worth travelling home in the middle of a tour, and it's rare to get every successive night booked.

Those of us who prefer to be our own agents (it makes loss-making tours less likely, for a start!) have plenty to do with stuffing envelopes, signing contracts, keeping the publicity blurb up to date. And that's not to mention actually getting the gigs....

Not giving away any secrets but I would be very happy to earn £37K a year. I'm certainly not grumbling about my career choice, but a part-time job it is not!

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:24 AM

And there ladies and gents you have it straight from the horses mouth.

Thank you Brian

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:34 AM

Thing is surely, lovely as it would be for all the musicians who want to make their living out of their art and earn £30K per year, if the market ain't there then it ain't there. A fee of £1200 only makes financial sense to an organiser if having booked that artist, they're going to pull in enough audience to make that much money and then a bit more. And while some organisers are maybe complacent about their audiences & advertising etc, plenty aren't and yet would still struggle to sell say 150 tickets at £15 each to cover artists fee plus attendant costs (venue, publicity, accomodation etc) even for a very well known artist with a following, let alone for a young five piece that nobody has heard of yet.

I think it is arrogant in the extreme for anybody at any age to effectively be saying 'I've decided to dedicate myself to my art and so you have to pay for it whether you actually like it or not'. From what I can see most artists don't do that, they say ' I am choosing to dedicate myself to my art and if you like it enough to think its a saleable comodity then let's come to a financial arrangement so that I can do it some more'.

I've read various of Dick Gaughan's posts on uk.music.folk on the situation you're talking about Diane and he has my every sympathy as a true professional soldiering on in a tough world. But I've never seen anything that suggests he would say he's not choosing to make his living that way.

I know plenty of people who do play on main stages at a festival near you who do not rely on their music as their main source of income, so it definitely isn't impossible to do both. And if somebody wants to get a folk music degree as part of their education then so be it but I agree with most of the people who have already posted who say in the long run it probably won't make much difference to a particular performer's career - if they're good & lucky they'll make it, if not they won't, regardless of a piece of paper.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Captain Colin
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:37 AM

Fair enough. My heart is starting to bleed now. All these oppressed performers forced into slaving away all the hours God sends updating their blurb and putting things in envelopes. Even having to sign their name sometimes! When I come to power I'll put it all right. Love to all and ta ta, C.C.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:46 AM

I've never seen anything that suggests he would say he's not choosing to make his living that way

And nothing I've said suggest that either. And I hope he continues to do so for a very long time.

I'm just completely pissed off at an idiot (and not just one) who has not the first idea wha's involved in running a sole trader business (because that's what it is and there is indeed a module at Newcastle on how to do this), nor of the musical and administrative labour involved chooses to come and stick his nose in, pontificating on stuff he doesn't understand.

IAFWAFIAWM(orW)WQ

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:49 AM

Late to the party as usual.

Why would anyone in his right mind get into folk music to make money?

I would be suprised if there were a group of professional performers making less money.

Then, of course, if you want to be a folk musician with credentials you also have to pay for the degree.

A joke you'll sometimes hear from traditional fiddlers in the states:
"I used to be a professional musician, but I had to quit for health reasons....
I was starving to death."


Russ (Permanent and occasionally mystified GUEST)

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,melodeon
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:53 AM

I think I was at the Sidmouth session described by Songthrush and I must say it was very much as described, however I felt more embarassed than appalled, I think a modicum of strong drink may have been taken, and in fairness, they were not that well known that anyone would be aware of their repetoire.Diane , were you there because I think the song in question may have been a version of young hunting.Apart from that the performance was fairly good I think these people have got potential and I hope they achieve all that they want from folk music.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:56 AM

Er...have we strayed from the topic, or what?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:00 PM

awww, I'm intrigued now and you're all being coy and not naming names. Only trio I can think of booked at Sidmouth last year and out of the Newcastle degree and liable to get a bit silly when drunk are the Devil's Interval... so was it them...??? Jim Causley checks in on the message boards sometimes so maybe he'll pop along and apologise in person sometime soon.... if it wasn't them then please accept my own apologies for getting it wrong...

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:00 PM

no we never do that....

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:01 PM

never stray fom topic or never name names?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:07 PM

No I wasn't at Sidmouth and I've no idea who it was and it was agreed much higher up the thread that peeps shouldn't be named.

TDI don't even do a version of Young Hunting (afaik). Why should Jim Causley (if it were he) or anyone else have to apologise for doing something which is part of their act? In his sort of situation, the onus lies clearly with the floor singer not to overstep the bounds of politeness.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: oggie
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:10 PM

If a folkie can earn a regular £37k then they're in a very small minority. The reality, even if they grossed that, is totally different.

You may think that the only expenses you have as a musician is a change of strings, it ain't.

Out of that mythical £37k (and 150 gigs plus a year would be good going and hard work) comes (in no particular order) -Travel, accommodation (if you've 2 days between gigs you're not going to be in an organiser's spare bed), insurance, agent's fees, a new vehicle as and when (don't forget AA membership), internet hosting (webmaster maybe), publicity, phone bills, accountant, bank charges. And this is nowhere like exhaustive. Out of that £37K I reckon they'd make about £12K to £15K.

Yes they choose the life, and thank God people like Gaughan do, but an easy living it is not. A period of illness, a breakdown or a last minute cancelled gig can seriously screw up a very delicate balance.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention pension provision unless they can work into their seventies.

One of the good things about the Newcastle course is that it does address the issues, both theoretical and practical, of running what is a small business. Remember, no business no show.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:17 PM

I've just deduced the trio in question (and attendent "name" who turned up with them - that was the bit that gave it away...). The group in question is mostly instrumental, yes?

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Dave Earl
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:21 PM

"I've just deduced the trio in question "

What good will it do to name the names?

It was an unfortunate occurrence and best (IMO) left alone and moved on from.

Dave

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:23 PM

Well said Brian Peters.

I know plenty of people who do play on main stages at a festival near you who do not rely on their music as their main source of income,

If you mean by that festivals are a source of extra money then I think you are wrong and I know a lot of artists and can think maybe of two who fit into that category.

If you mean to supplement their income as an artist they have to have other jobs - then sure, I can hardly think of any artists who do not fall into that category.

Subject: RE: young folk tradition undermining folk
From: GUEST,James H
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 12:31 PM

regardless of who it is (and seems I was off with my guess so appologies to TDI) I think it is rude to do a song that somebody has just done without at least some acknowledgement that you have noticed. If it was a festival folk club session then surely any material is fair game for anybody - why should a floor singer know whats in the repertoire of a booked act? Unless it was written by them, which sounds like not.

If the booked act had noticed they then had the choice to as suggested above say that they're going to do another version or to swap something else instead.

If they hadn't noticed then they weren't paying attention, which *is* rude and *would* warrant an apology.