the folk revival

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:24 AM

You scored that 100 on my shoulders.

You're welcome.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:30 AM

errr.. those folks of a purist or nervous disposition
may not enjoy googling for European 'Folk Metal' bands




heres a point in the 'wrong' direction..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_metal

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:36 AM

DAVE its Northampton for cobblers,I find myself agreeing with you DAVE,John Hardlys post is alot of poppycock.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:44 AM

Jim Carroll,correction to my earlier post re EELS FOOT public house LEISTON,there was singing in this pub in the 1930 and 1940s and was recorded by the BBC ,Needless to say thiswas long before the British folk revival,.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:50 AM

Jim Carroll, anyone interested in pub singing by traditional singers,should google Geoff Ling.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:51 AM

The band Mawkin has been organising musical weekends called Steppin' On The Eel's Foot in recent years. Their melodeon player's grandfather John Barber is the Southwold Town Crier.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 12:17 PM

Why don't you educate me so you needn't despair. I'd hate for you to have to despair. It sounds so...you know...desperate.

(and a little condescending. you don't suppose that I could have a different opinion than you? Or is it really that you're right and I'm ignorant?)

...but first, maybe you could explain back to me what you THINK I'm saying, because I think you're reading what I'm not writing.

...or you could continue to despair.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 12:22 PM

The original tradition was of people making music within, and for, their own community. For a variety of reasons, that tradition has largely, in England at least, died out.

The revival has created its own tradition, and its own community. However the community we have created is self-consciously based around the music.

I think there is now a new tradition - the revival has picked up the ball and run with it. On the one hand, it's taken it into the commercial world of festivals and recordings, but at the same time, at grass-roots level,sessions, ceilidhs and morris dancing are thriving at a level that probably hasn't been seen since the 19th Century.

Up until a few years ago, most of my music-making was as a "performer" - in folk clubs, at festival and similar events. Now most of my playing is in sessions, or playing in a band for weddings, parties etc. It occurs to me that what I'm doing now differs little from what the likes of Scan Tester, Billy Bennington, the Bulwers and others were doing. And while some of my repertoire comes from recorded or printed sources (and now from the internet) some of it was picked up from other singers and musicians. The continuity is still there.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 12:39 PM

Howard, I would argue and you really make the point well that there is more "continuity" than there is "revival".

Now it applies quite a lot in Sheffield as I argued earlier.

It seems to apply to you (with a slight aberration when you went around folk clubs!!) :-)

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 01:15 PM

well said Howard.a relative of mine used to accompany Walter Bulwer,at garden /village fetes where he[walter] used to buskbottling for him.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Bee
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 01:45 PM

While not wanting to intrude on the basic argument, could someone satisfy my curiousity about the role of women in UK traditional folk? All the talk of origins seems to be about where men sang to entertain each other. Did women not sing outside the house?

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 01:55 PM

well.,this is interesting.
Walter Bulwer was accompanied by his wife Daisy,but she generally played the piano.
Women played outside the house, Dolly Curtis was a fine melodeon player in East Anglia.
Julia Clifford[an irish musician living in EastAnglia] played fiddle,but it seems that the East anglian sessions were male dominated.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: treewind
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

...but I recently saw a video of an ancient session at the Blaxhall ship (it might have been filmed in the 1950's-60's, so actually less ancient than me) where there were some women step dancing, though I don't remember many singing. But pubs were funny about women then...

There were plenty of female song-carrying travellers. May Bradley and Phoebe Smith spring to mind immediately; I'm sure there are many more on Voice of the People. Cecil Sharp collected lots of songs from female singers in Somerset and elsewhere, Mary Humphreys has a whole bunch of recently-unearthed stuff from Cotttenhan in Cambridgeshire collected initially by Ella Bull from her servant Charlotte Few - in fact the more I think about it the more I know it's a total non-issue and frankly, a daft question.

Anahata

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:27 PM

This certainly has become two different discussions. The folk revival over here was in the 60's. It's the folk survival, now.
Most of the discussion seems to be raging between different appreciations of current singers in England. I can't add anything to that. Certainly, as far as being traditional is concerned, they can't hold a candle to Lonnie Donegan. :-)

Hi, Art: Yes, I know you have always loved solo singers, and have always preferred to sing solo. That's a very strong preference for you. With rare acception, I've performed solo most of my life, too.
It just worked out that way, and I'm very happy with it because I can be more conversational between songs and strike up a different raport with the audience. But, I'd never confuse personal preference with the validity of solo singers versus groups. That's a discussion that is so non-sensical that it can't even withstand conversation. Traditional folk music embodies many types of songs, from ballads to string band jump tunes, prison work songs and dance music. I smile, reading this discussion because there have been times when someone who believes that only solo performers are real folk musicians, and then they begrudgingly (it seems) make an acception for dance bands. It still evades the clear tradition of singing groups and duos.

I love it all... Charlie Poole and Almeda Riddle. I bet if old Charlie and Almeda got together they'd just laugh at how serious (and foolish) the new generation is when they try to validate what is all folk music.

Jerry

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:32 PM

Yes, it's a bit of a daft question. You only have to look at Voice Of The People where, in addition to May Bradley and Phoebe Smith many other women such as Sarah Makem, Belle Stewart, Margaret Barry Jeannie Robertson, Lizzie Higgins, Mary Anne Haynes and there are surely many more but I can't be arsed to go and look. Then there are the Legg women, Cecilia Costello and Queen Caroline Hughes.

It's true that these recordings are a little light on women musicians but, as Anahata says, pubs were funny about women then.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 02:49 PM

pubs were funny about women then? Perhaps in the sense that society was funny about women?

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Bee
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:17 PM

I'm sorry you think it a daft question: I live in Canada, and here women weren't permitted in pubs or taverns until 1972, and since many discussions of UK music seem to focus on pubs, farm workers, fishermen, and other establishments and professions that here would have been considered strictly male preserves, am I supposed to just assume the women's situation in the UK? Thanks anyway for partially answering the question.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:19 PM

Exactly Les,very few of the women that Diane mentioned sang in pubs.
NOW,Iam leaving,because I sense ,Jim Carroll is coming.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: treewind
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:22 PM

Well yes, but as far as traditional music (especially singing) is concerned, women didn't have a different "role to play" (to quote Bee's question. There just weren't so many of them doing it - though I'm not too certain of that either.

In fact in the Victorian and Edwardian middle classes women were generally expected and encouraged to be singers and musicians.

I'm not sure was Les's point was, so I may not have addressed it squarely.

Anahata

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:22 PM

unlike some.....just maybe bee isn't familiar with Voice of The People, I don't suppose everybody has heard of this collection, or even Lemmy Brazil, come to think of it...or Daisy Chapman.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:31 PM

Bee it wasn't a daft question at all. Series like Voice of The People are not easy to come by in Canada, indeed it and other recordingssuch as these may only be available via the internet.
Musical Traditions (http://www.mustrad.org.uk) and
Topic Records (http://www.topicrecords.co.uk/)[ The Voice of The People]

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: treewind
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:35 PM

Bee, in Britain women weren't excluded from pubs, but they were often restricted: typically a pub would have a "public bar" where respectable women weren't expected and a "lounge bar" where they were, though not usually alone. The distinction fizzled out slowly over the 1960's/70s, varying from region to region and pub to pub.

I guess that women who sang did so more in the home than out of it, which is where they spent much more of their lives anyway.

Anahata

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 03:36 PM

I don't think I ever saw Margaret Barry anywhere other than in a pub, though I have to say that I encountered rather more women traditional singers at festivals like that which became the National, or at Sidmouth, neither of which are, technically, pubs.

Anyone who wishes to acquaint themselves with those traditional singers of the British Isles who have been recorded would surely begin with VotP.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: countrylife
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 04:00 PM

the following overview of The Voice of The People may prove useful

The Voice of The People

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Bee
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 09:03 PM

Thank you, countrylife, treewind, for the information. Voice of the People certainly hasn't been available to me, and I will read the site with interest.

And perhaps 'daft' isn't considered quite as insulting in the UK as it is in Nova Scotia: I wouldn't know.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,anonymous for safety
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 09:47 PM

hey Bee..

the UK folk inteligentsia elite are a nasty caustic bunch of never beens..

please dont let them undermine or upset you.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 07 - 11:13 PM

Voice of the People is likely the best collection of field recordings ever assembled. It is (and has been for years) available from CAMSCO--all 20 CDs of it. (yes, you can buy just one)

From dick greenhaus, on a borrowed computer

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 02:59 AM

the UK folk inteligentsia (sic) elite

As I have often remarked: If elitism = excellence, long live elitism.
And if joining the band of those who, way above me in the thread, cited VotP affords me membership of such an elite, then so be it.
(I don't mind very much being mentioned in the same breath as Anahata and Dave).
It is, frankly, impossible to discuss the recent origins of British trad without reference to VotP.
Such an omission leads, as we have just seen, to daft conclusions such as where were the women participants.
Or a peculiar notions that only solo performers are permitted.
Or the wildly ridiculous notion that CSNY are heirs to the revival.
This (quoth a resident) is rightly termed 'cobblers' in Sheffield.
Nay, Northampton, it was argued, to which I added a paragraph on John Clare, the Northamptonshire fiddler.
Now, I know not whether this post got zapped by someone who thinks John Clare is suitable only as a question on an English Literature paper or whether I'm not allowed to be in despair over nonsensical spoutings about the revival from those who know not what is IS.
Even before studying VotP, perhaps you Murkans should get hold of Fellside's Song Links, a celebration of English Traditional Songs And Their American Variants. It's even got Sara Grey and Jean Ritchie on it so it surely won't be too hard going. (Oh, and Anahata & Mary Humphreys too).

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:15 AM

i just woke up..

the mrs iis off on an adventure activity weekend in a tent
with her wimmin mates
somewhere flooded down in swampy underwater west country

..probably lifted to safety by now
ina coast guard helicopter by burly muscly brad pitt lookalikes in trust me i look cool and very heroic life saving uniforms..

so anyway..

back at home ..


i could listen to whatever i liked as loud as i liked..

ended up with anne briggs and marc bolan



and Blanche "little amber bottles"

who are trhe best yank band i heard since 16 horse power..


forgot which thread i'm posting this tripe under ..

but blanche are really good

and should be heard by all you old miserable clencharsed accademic ****ers

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:24 AM

But it wasn't a DAFT question. It was JUST a question from someone who didn't know the answer. To ask a question is perfectly reasonable, and the questionner is undeserving of the arrogant put-down, "It's a daft question".

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:25 AM

Well I'm playing Glorystrokes (Sheffield death metalcore ceilidh) and Tom Moore, a 12-year-old amazing fiddler.
So I'm way cooler than you.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:25 AM

We will do less miserable if you agree to do more coherent

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:30 AM

I was talking to PFR (or the wall)
Who're you talking to, Les?

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:43 AM

g'mornin princess countess di..

my PC is too well cidered up and my windows is fallin down knackered..

tried listening.. bu8t media player dont work..

so..

"Possibly the world's only traditional english metalcore dance band, GloryStrokes bring together some well known names from the UK folk dance scene with a cataclysmic dash through their skeleton riddled musical closets. Take two melodeons, add double kick drums, detuned guitars, beats, samples and weird keyboard noises and you're left with traditional music as it hasn't been heard before, bridging the barrier from barn dance to mosh pit."

i'll take it on valued trust
that i'd probably enjoy them if i could hear it..

my favourite euro band is 'stille volk'


but i'm always keen to learn more..

oh btw..

hers one for a good laugh.

[errrm.. actually i might buy tickets to se them in bristol in septembr..]

http://www.turisas.com/

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:46 AM

Diane,

I was hoping to extract meaning from punkfolkrocker - he is working towards I guess?

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:53 AM

working towards meaning..?????

get downstairs and make a bacon sandwich..


i've spent the lasrt 15 years haphazardly & painfulyy escaping from 'meaning'..

deep thinking hurts heads

remember that and be safe !!!

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:58 AM

Turisas?
Yeah, that's getting there.

I raise you Frigg (and JPP and Hoven Droven).

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 04:02 AM

Blanche? Sixteen horsepower?

What are they? Cider? Weed? Bands?

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 04:12 AM

well they be music..



i'm off to bed now..

maybe wake up mid afternoon

hopefuly sunny stuff bursting though cutains..

then off to social club to enjoy a pint while taking piss out of smokers..


oh and thers some good french neo-folk goth metal band i got a cd off..


but cant remember name right now..

woman singer..

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: treewind
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:19 AM

OK - I could send Bee a PM but might as as well apologise in public for starting the "daft question" sub-thread.
Bee, I think you you were led down the garden path by all the argument that traditional folk music all happened in pubs, combined with the fact that your own culture used to see pubs (whatever they are in Nova Scotia) as exclusively men-only. And of course I had no idea where you were coming from, but accept that in the circumstances it was a reasonable question.

There was a thread about "the role of women in folk music" on mudcat a few years ago and your question reminded me of that - on that occasion it seemed to be trying to raise an issue where there was none.

Anahata

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:22 AM

Glorystrokes.

First time I heard their record I thought I had a bad copy. I was assured it was supposed to sound like that!!

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:27 AM

And I apologise for agreeing publicly that it was a daft question.
(Even though it was).
Though not any dafter than a lot of the transatlantic tripe posted above.
I think it's skewed agenda shredding time.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 05:41 AM

I apologise anyway. Seems best. I've contributed little to the thread (there's a surprise!), but gained a lot from the discussions, which thankfully have remained civil. But I see a great divide, the one Diane pointed towards several screenfuls further up, i.e. in the understanding of what is "traditional" on either side of the Atlantic. And it strikes me that this does not actually require bridging, even if that were possible. The two worlds have gone their own ways for the last 300 years or so, despite the links between tem. So, to compare the legitimacy of the term "traditional" when applied to each other's "old" material, serves little purpose. I.e. this is a discussion that can only make sense withing the confines of a single culture.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Bee
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:21 AM

Still, George, it hardly seems to me 'daft' to express a curiousity about some aspect of the 'other' cultural tradition, as there are obvious direct and indirect influences on North American music. Some of which I am trying to learn about, at least partly through Mudcat.

I'll be quiet now.

Bee, from Nova Scotia, which has its own various musical traditions, which have not stemmed from antique entertainments in drinking establishments.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:49 AM

Indeed it wasn't daft, Bee, and I never said it was either. But hair shirts seemed to be in fashion, so I put one on, too. Just trying to draw a veil and continue the discussion.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 09:54 AM

as the OP,I was referring to the British folk revival.
so far I have established that the British folk revival,gave input to traditional singers by giving them a place to perform,and by enabling them to meet other traditional musicians,from outside their original area,thus broadening their repertoire,and their styles.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Howard Jones
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:13 AM

Captain, it certainly did that. But I believe the revival has also re-invigorated the tradition.

When Cecil Sharp was collecting songs, tunes and dances a century ago he thought he was recording the dying throes of a moribund tradition. If he were to return today he would be astonished at the amount of music and song, the proliferation of morris sides, and the number of social dances taking place every weekend. Admittedly, it's opened up to different styles and influences, but there is also continuity with the old tradition.

There is now a thriving tradition of music and dance taking place within the community, for people's own entertainment rather than as a commercial event. It's a different sort of community than it once was, but that's also true of most areas of modern life.

True, it's no longer part of most people's lives the way it once was, the majority of people look elsewhere for their entertainment. But even outside the folk community, most people will have come across a music or song session in a pub, seen the morris dancers in their High Street, or danced at a PTA or wedding ceilidh.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: GUEST,shepherdlass
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 10:19 AM

And sometimes the traditional musicians were full-fledged members of the revival too - people like Bob Copper and Jack Elliott of Birtley. Surely they wisely spotted a good outlet and ensured their traditions were carried forward by making use of the same distribution mechanisms as the young gun revivalists.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 03:30 PM

of course the British folk revival,gave platforms to singers such as Bob Dylan,who took english /irish traditonal tunes,Nottamun Town was used for Masters of War, LordFranklin/Croppy Boy,became Bob Dylans Dream,thus exposing traditional airs to a wider audience,and creating interest in the folk revival and other singers involved in the revival both traditional and revival.

Subject: RE: the folk revival
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Jul 07 - 04:19 PM

I'm trying to make some sense of this discussion. It seems to me that academic males have made the distinction between what is revival and what is traditional and that this doesn't seem to be coming from very many who would be labeled as a traditional folk musician or singer. Also, as Bee has pointed out, not much imput from women here.

Most of the traditional singers have modified what they heard making it their own rather than imitative. In that sense, each time they perform, they are part of a revival.

New verses were being written by those who are dubbed traditional throughout the ages.

There is a Anglo singing approach to folk and an Afro one. The first stresses solo performance and the latter ensemble.

The difference between Dylan taking trad songs and rewriting them and those who do this in a traditional enclave or sub-culture is that Dylan gets the royalties.

Nottamun Town as sung by Jean Ritchie would seem the basis for Dylan's Masters of War.

I do think there are musical patterns which indicate a traditional approach to a song but as has been stated many times, the more global, technological, and academic folk music becomes, the lines between trad and revival become blurred.

There is a sub-cultural tradition in music whether it's jazz, blues, ballad narrative singing,
fiddling, etc. and this is what gave rise to the interest initially by those of us who got what that was.

I think it became Rousseauian, however. It was romantic and exotic by those who were not part of any particular definable sub-culture. People started dressing oddly and affected mannerisms that are what could be viewed by many as comic.

From the standpoint of a musician, which is how I initially started out, the music speaks louder than words. But then when you look at the lyrics of songs, something else comes into focus.

There are good lyrics and poor ones. Some of the so-called songwriters of the "revival" are better than some of the lyrics messed with by "traditionalists". And vice versa.

I originally liked the folk music that I heard because it attracted me as good music, potent words and historical revelations. When I encountered "academia" then it seemed that the point of what folk music was suddenly became kind of crazy.

But if there had not been a historical precedence, a body of developed tradition, a method of expression that was concise and subjectively what I would call honest, I wouldn't have bothered.

So it leaves us in limbo. When you start using words to describe music you might as well use them to make buildings.

I think that when you scratch the academic skin you find radical differences in what they call folk, trad, revival, commercial and the interjection of opinion keeps the conversation flowing. Some information is useful. Some not. But thanks to UK Mudcatters I'm learning more about how folk music is perceived in the British Isles.


Frank Hamilton